Could a 12 handicapper....

[govols]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1428596922' post='11319691'][quote name='Tcann32' timestamp='1428595339' post='11319469']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1428593922' post='11319281']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589379' post='11318625']
What if your miss was not a result of poor contact? what is a GI club going to do (over a Players cavity or a blade) that would change the result?

I love how everyone assumes a miss is caused by poor contact... all i hear about is correcting misses with GI's.
[/quote]

other than a flushed iron shot w. an unintentional open or closed clubface, how is a miss not caused by poor contact? fat shots are poor contact, thin shots are bad contact, toe hits are bad contact, etc,. btw opening or closing the clubface makes it harder to make good contact.

sorry if you think this post is trolling
[/quote]

That is not trolling in the least. Some of that is exactly what I've been talking about, just potentially on the other side of the fence. I can't keep track who thinks what besides the ones who haven't been exactly civil. Everything you listed is poor contact. But aren't necessarily the result of poor choice of equipment, and wouldn't be helped by anything other than swing changes.

I pull the ball with my mid irons all too often, but it's a swing issue, and honestly the margin of error has been much better since I started playing clubs that most on here would say I have no business playing, as an offset club face made it worse.

I used to have to swing down considerably more to alleviate thin shots when I had clubs with wider soles/less of a leading edge. My old clubs were just simply a poor fit for my swing. Aiming intentionally way left and swinging steeper were things I had to do to fight the tendencies of the clubs themselves, and I had to consider all that before making smart plays on the course itself.
[/quote]

well around here disagreeing w. someone is often considered trolling.[/quote]

Especially on this subject. It's not what they want to hear. I'm not sure if some of these guys are in denial, don't actually understand solid contact, or like mentioned before have a very liberal concept of it. Maybe they're just dreaming big, which there's nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't change reality.

[Nine Miler]

Just wanted to pop in and +1 for Coronation Street. Still can't take my mom out to breakfast on Sundays because of that show.

[dog flog]

The question for me is are blades or cavity backs best for me, and me alone. As a now higher than 12 who has recently caught the golf bug after several years layoff, I've concluded that the answer is cavities, at least for now. My main reasons are: One, I played Cleveland TA5 irons for years and got used to the SGI feel and performance. Two, I've tried blades but never over an extended period of time so I don't really know how quickly I'd adapt to them. Though I'll have more time now to play and practice, I probably still won't be able to play more than once a week at most. Three, I've started playing with a new set of irons (also SGI) that I like and won't be switching until I give them a good trial period. I suggest for anyone thinking of moving from one type of iron to another that you consider your own situation and use the particulars of that to guide your decision.

[avrag]

[quote name='PeanutsDaddy' timestamp='1428595936' post='11319537']
I have a second confession (the first being that I'm overwhelmed with all of the scientific jargon). I'm following this thread (not because I care about [s]eh[/s] the blade vs. CB debate - a Canadian slip ; ) because it's playing out like a serial soap opera. So many interesting personalities.

The thread has evolved into the blade debate on Coronation Street.

Much of the content is repeated, but I keep waiting for the next ridiculous turn.

In the end I hope there is something deeper to be learned, but I'm not so certain.
[/quote]

Well, I have just pondered if I should delve into wild speculations about the reasons why some people are so much insisting that nobody but Tiger, Rory and Adam should play blades, or least nobody who is not better than scratch. I often wonder what makes them so passionate about it, why they want to convince people who feel more comfortable and have more fun playing "difficult clubs" that their personal experiences are wrong.
But it is the Thursday of the Masters, coverage here begins in a little over an hour, and that is way more interesting.

[duffer987]

[quote name='PeanutsDaddy' timestamp='1428598856' post='11319987']
[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1428597764' post='11319799']
[quote name='PeanutsDaddy' timestamp='1428595936' post='11319537']
I have a second confession (the first being that I'm overwhelmed with all of the scientific jargon). I'm following this thread (not because I care about [s]eh[/s] the blade vs. CB debate - a Canadian slip ; ) because it's playing out like a serial soap opera. So many interesting personalities.

The thread has evolved into the blade debate on Coronation Street.

Much of the content is repeated, but I keep waiting for the next ridiculous turn.

In the end I hope there is something deeper to be learned, but I'm not so certain.
[/quote]

There isn't. And we don't have the Rovers to pop down to for a proper pint
[/quote]

See, that's what I'm talking about.

A civil debate in an English pub would be splendid.

I don't believe you'd change the entrenched beliefs in the thread, but we'd probably all leave a bit 'sauced'.
[/quote]

And the best bit, is you can have 1/2 dozen pints because the ABV is typically in the 3.5% - 5.5% and with last orders at 10 to 11, means you can be done, home and in bed, and still get a solid 7hrs before having to go to work the next day and then actually be productive

[govols]

[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1428600379' post='11320173'][quote name='PeanutsDaddy' timestamp='1428595936' post='11319537']
I have a second confession (the first being that I'm overwhelmed with all of the scientific jargon). I'm following this thread (not because I care about [s]eh[/s] the blade vs. CB debate - a Canadian slip ; ) because it's playing out like a serial soap opera. So many interesting personalities.

The thread has evolved into the blade debate on Coronation Street.

Much of the content is repeated, but I keep waiting for the next ridiculous turn.

In the end I hope there is something deeper to be learned, but I'm not so certain.
[/quote]

Well, I have just pondered if I should delve into wild speculations about the reasons why some people are so much insisting that nobody but Tiger, Rory and Adam should play blades, or least nobody who is not better than scratch. I often wonder what makes them so passionate about it, why they want to convince people who feel more comfortable and have more fun playing "difficult clubs" that their personal experiences are wrong.
But it is the Thursday of the Masters, coverage here begins in a little over an hour, and that is way more interesting.[/quote]

Nobody has said people can't play what they want or enjoy. The self justification they use is irrational saying they benefit from something intended to be struck dead solid every time which they don't do or do with frequency. If you're not hitting the ball dead solid then nothing else matters and that's the end of the debate. Another defense is they "do no worse". In that case neither does a 30 handicap.

I'm watching the Masters now streaming through the app. Amen corner, 15 &16, and 2 featured groups.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428601150' post='11320277']
[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1428600379' post='11320173'][quote name='PeanutsDaddy' timestamp='1428595936' post='11319537']
I have a second confession (the first being that I'm overwhelmed with all of the scientific jargon). I'm following this thread (not because I care about [s]eh[/s] the blade vs. CB debate - a Canadian slip ; ) because it's playing out like a serial soap opera. So many interesting personalities.

The thread has evolved into the blade debate on Coronation Street.

Much of the content is repeated, but I keep waiting for the next ridiculous turn.

In the end I hope there is something deeper to be learned, but I'm not so certain.
[/quote]

Well, I have just pondered if I should delve into wild speculations about the reasons why some people are so much insisting that nobody but Tiger, Rory and Adam should play blades, or least nobody who is not better than scratch. I often wonder what makes them so passionate about it, why they want to convince people who feel more comfortable and have more fun playing "difficult clubs" that their personal experiences are wrong.
But it is the Thursday of the Masters, coverage here begins in a little over an hour, and that is way more interesting.[/quote]

Nobody has said people can't play what they want or enjoy. The self justification they use is irrational saying they benefit from something intended to be struck dead solid every time which they don't do or do with frequency. If you're not hitting the ball dead solid then nothing else matters and that's the end of the debate. Another defense is they "do no worse". In that case neither does a 30 handicap.

I'm watching the Masters now streaming through the app. Amen corner, 15 &16, and 2 featured groups.
[/quote]
The only thing irrational is your claim of needing to be a perfect ballstriker to play blades since you don't have much experience playing them. This is your self justification not to play them and you are entitled to that. But your claim only applies to you alone. Some may share it. Some may not.

[PeanutsDaddy]

[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1428600563' post='11320197']
[quote name='PeanutsDaddy' timestamp='1428598856' post='11319987']
[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1428597764' post='11319799']
[quote name='PeanutsDaddy' timestamp='1428595936' post='11319537']
I have a second confession (the first being that I'm overwhelmed with all of the scientific jargon). I'm following this thread (not because I care about [s]eh[/s] the blade vs. CB debate - a Canadian slip ; ) because it's playing out like a serial soap opera. So many interesting personalities.

The thread has evolved into the blade debate on Coronation Street.

Much of the content is repeated, but I keep waiting for the next ridiculous turn.

In the end I hope there is something deeper to be learned, but I'm not so certain.
[/quote]

There isn't. And we don't have the Rovers to pop down to for a proper pint
[/quote]

See, that's what I'm talking about.

A civil debate in an English pub would be splendid.

I don't believe you'd change the entrenched beliefs in the thread, but we'd probably all leave a bit 'sauced'.
[/quote]

And the best bit, is you can have 1/2 dozen pints because the ABV is typically in the 3.5% - 5.5% and with last orders at 10 to 11, means you can be done, home and in bed, and still get a solid 7hrs before having to go to work the next day and then actually be productive
[/quote]

Here's the conundrum. I'm on a parental leave, my wife is working midnights, and both Peanuts are not sleeping well. PD is running on fumes.

I need to keep my drinking to a minimum because that 4 am wake-up is a real bugger.

Bourbon, scotch and whiskeys if I'm feeling adventurous. We'll see where this thread leads me ; )

[govols]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428601717' post='11320381'][quote name='govols' timestamp='1428601150' post='11320277']
[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1428600379' post='11320173'][quote name='PeanutsDaddy' timestamp='1428595936' post='11319537']
I have a second confession (the first being that I'm overwhelmed with all of the scientific jargon). I'm following this thread (not because I care about [s]eh[/s] the blade vs. CB debate - a Canadian slip ; ) because it's playing out like a serial soap opera. So many interesting personalities.

The thread has evolved into the blade debate on Coronation Street.

Much of the content is repeated, but I keep waiting for the next ridiculous turn.

In the end I hope there is something deeper to be learned, but I'm not so certain.
[/quote]

Well, I have just pondered if I should delve into wild speculations about the reasons why some people are so much insisting that nobody but Tiger, Rory and Adam should play blades, or least nobody who is not better than scratch. I often wonder what makes them so passionate about it, why they want to convince people who feel more comfortable and have more fun playing "difficult clubs" that their personal experiences are wrong.
But it is the Thursday of the Masters, coverage here begins in a little over an hour, and that is way more interesting.[/quote]

Nobody has said people can't play what they want or enjoy. The self justification they use is irrational saying they benefit from something intended to be struck dead solid every time which they don't do or do with frequency. If you're not hitting the ball dead solid then nothing else matters and that's the end of the debate. Another defense is they "do no worse". In that case neither does a 30 handicap.

I'm watching the Masters now streaming through the app. Amen corner, 15 &16, and 2 featured groups.
[/quote]
The only thing irrational is your claim of needing to be a perfect ballstriker to play blades since you don't have much experience playing them. This is your self justification not to play them and you are entitled to that. But your claim only applies to you alone. Some may share it. Some may not.[/quote]


You have to be a GOOD ball striker to play well with ANY club. You have to be a GREAT ball striker to play well with blades. It's been said already if you're a bad golfer it's not gonna matter what you play with. If you're playing blades, not hitting way more solid shots than not, then you're a bad golfer. If the shoe fits wear it. It's a progression. If you can't hit a CB solid your not gonna hit a MB solid so why make that jump? There's no benefit and there's no swing anomaly that helps bad ball strikers benefit from blades. Anything you say to refute this is irrational.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428602159' post='11320435']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428601717' post='11320381'][quote name='govols' timestamp='1428601150' post='11320277']
[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1428600379' post='11320173'][quote name='PeanutsDaddy' timestamp='1428595936' post='11319537']
I have a second confession (the first being that I'm overwhelmed with all of the scientific jargon). I'm following this thread (not because I care about [s]eh[/s] the blade vs. CB debate - a Canadian slip ; ) because it's playing out like a serial soap opera. So many interesting personalities.

The thread has evolved into the blade debate on Coronation Street.

Much of the content is repeated, but I keep waiting for the next ridiculous turn.

In the end I hope there is something deeper to be learned, but I'm not so certain.
[/quote]

Well, I have just pondered if I should delve into wild speculations about the reasons why some people are so much insisting that nobody but Tiger, Rory and Adam should play blades, or least nobody who is not better than scratch. I often wonder what makes them so passionate about it, why they want to convince people who feel more comfortable and have more fun playing "difficult clubs" that their personal experiences are wrong.
But it is the Thursday of the Masters, coverage here begins in a little over an hour, and that is way more interesting.[/quote]

Nobody has said people can't play what they want or enjoy. The self justification they use is irrational saying they benefit from something intended to be struck dead solid every time which they don't do or do with frequency. If you're not hitting the ball dead solid then nothing else matters and that's the end of the debate. Another defense is they "do no worse". In that case neither does a 30 handicap.

I'm watching the Masters now streaming through the app. Amen corner, 15 &16, and 2 featured groups.
[/quote]
The only thing irrational is your claim of needing to be a perfect ballstriker to play blades since you don't have much experience playing them. This is your self justification not to play them and you are entitled to that. But your claim only applies to you alone. Some may share it. Some may not.[/quote]


You have to be a GOOD ball striker to play well with ANY club. You have to be a GREAT ball striker to play well with blades. It's been said already if you're a bad golfer it's not gonna matter what you play with. If you're playing blades, not hitting way more solid shots than not, then you're a bad golfer. If the shoe fits wear it. It's a progression. If you can't hit a CB solid your not gonna hit a MB solid so why make that jump? There's no benefit and there's no swing anomaly that helps bad ball strikers benefit from blades. Anything you say to refute this is irrational.
[/quote]

^Says the guy with an irrational fear of blades.

You may change your view if you would just play them. They may even make you relax more.

But you have to have the right attitude.

[T.Beau]

[quote name='SeaOfGreen10' timestamp='1428594930' post='11319413']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428594325' post='11319329']
[quote name='SeaOfGreen10' timestamp='1428594177' post='11319307']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428592766' post='11319097']
[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428592546' post='11319071']
I still think there are some folks in this thread that either 1. Don't understand what solid contact actually is, or 2. Have an extremely liberal definition of it.
[/quote]i love this guy... trolls it right up with a new angle... lol.
[/quote]
New angle? That is pretty much the entire debate summed up in one line....if you believe the ballstriking ability necessary for playing blades is higher (i.e., many pros dont even play them), then you will never be able to justify a 12 cap using them. If you believe the required ballstriking ability to be lower than that, then you can conceivably understand some 12s who are relatively strong iron players being able to get away with it.
[/quote]there is a difference between hitting a solid shot and solid ball striking... please do not confuse the two
[/quote]

Doesn't change my point much. If you believe a large number of pro golfers don't feel they hit the ball solid enough for a blade, you aren't going to buy the argument that a lot of 12 cappers do.
[/quote]

how dare you use really solid logic in a place like this

[Nine Miler]

I can feel great about hitting homers with a wooden bat all I want, but it's not going to matter because I can't make contact in the "fast" stall at the batting cage. See what I mean?

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428603232' post='11320619']
I can feel great about hitting homers with a wooden bat all I want, but it's not going to matter because I can't make contact in the "fast" stall at the batting cage. See what I mean?
[/quote]
Only if you assume it is impossible.

Look at every golfer's hit patterns. There are a significant amount of strikes at the center area. Sure the worse golfer has a wider dispersion, but again there are a significant number showing ideal contact. A big hole at the center does not magically appear when the club is a blade and all of a sudden that golfer can no longer hit them there.

The club performance scales to the relative skill level of the golfer. All clubs do this. The golfer need only decide if he wants to work the ball or play straight shots.

And yes with practice a 12 can work the ball as well as his straight shots with just a setup change. Most don't because they are playing the wrong club for that type of shot. It is not impossible but just harder to work a CB by comparison, tweeners notwithstanding.

[T.Beau]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428595085' post='11319439']

. But the real incentive is to have the golfer play as much GI improvement of a set as possible because that will mean he may buy more player's sets as he gets better, which he will likely do on his own accord. So the golfer is deluded into thinking a specific club type is exactly matched to his skill level so he follows the classification and will likely buy

[/quote]

i see..so you are obviously saying that these manufactures design GI iron not to try and help people play better, but to cause them to play worse, so that their only alternatives are clubs that are harder to hit well and that will thusly make them play better...got it...quite a concept

[DeNinny]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1428605927' post='11321105']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428595085' post='11319439']

. But the real incentive is to have the golfer play as much GI improvement of a set as possible because that will mean he may buy more player's sets as he gets better, which he will likely do on his own accord. So the golfer is deluded into thinking a specific club type is exactly matched to his skill level so he follows the classification and will likely buy

[/quote]

i see..so you are obviously saying that these manufactures design GI iron not to try and help people play better, but to cause them to play worse, so that their only alternatives are clubs that are harder to hit well and that will thusly make them play better...got it...quite a concept
[/quote]
Actually it is obvious you are putting words in my mouth and EXAGGERATING my point.

I've already said the intended benefits are there but they are statistically insignificant and they are detrimental to some styles of swing.

Read my posts more carefully and as-is. It is obvious you are not based on your reply.

[Nine Miler]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428604528' post='11320915']
[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428603232' post='11320619']
I can feel great about hitting homers with a wooden bat all I want, but it's not going to matter because I can't make contact in the "fast" stall at the batting cage. See what I mean?
[/quote]
Only if you assume it is impossible.

Look at every golfer's hit patterns. There are a significant amount of strikes at the center area. Sure the worse golfer has a wider dispersion, but again there are a significant number showing ideal contact. A big hole at the center does not magically appear when the club is a blade and all of a sudden that golfer can no longer hit them there.

The club performance scales to the relative skill level of the golfer. All clubs do this. The golfer need only decide if he wants to work the ball or play straight shots.

And yes with practice a 12 can work the ball as well as his straight shots with just a setup change. Most don't because they are playing the wrong club for that type of shot. It is not impossible but just harder to work a CB by comparison, tweeners notwithstanding.
[/quote]

Of course it's possible to hit a home run with a wooden bat with enough practice, training, honing of skill... Etc, just like it's possible to strike a blade well, with enough practice...snip- see above.

If I make contact, it's going to go farther, and probably will be hit better, with faster ball speed with a composite bat, though since I am not good enough to use a wooden bat as effectively.

I know it's kind of a stretch, but that's a new angle, for those that were calling me a troll earlier.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428606438' post='11321179']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428604528' post='11320915']
[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428603232' post='11320619']
I can feel great about hitting homers with a wooden bat all I want, but it's not going to matter because I can't make contact in the "fast" stall at the batting cage. See what I mean?
[/quote]
Only if you assume it is impossible.

Look at every golfer's hit patterns. There are a significant amount of strikes at the center area. Sure the worse golfer has a wider dispersion, but again there are a significant number showing ideal contact. A big hole at the center does not magically appear when the club is a blade and all of a sudden that golfer can no longer hit them there.

The club performance scales to the relative skill level of the golfer. All clubs do this. The golfer need only decide if he wants to work the ball or play straight shots.

And yes with practice a 12 can work the ball as well as his straight shots with just a setup change. Most don't because they are playing the wrong club for that type of shot. It is not impossible but just harder to work a CB by comparison, tweeners notwithstanding.
[/quote]

Of course it's possible to hit a home run with a wooden bat with enough practice, training, honing of skill... Etc, just like it's possible to strike a blade well, with enough practice...snip- see above.

If I make contact, it's going to go farther, and probably will be hit better, with faster ball speed with a composite bat, though since I am not good enough to use a wooden bat as effectively.

I know it's kind of a stretch, but that's a new angle, for those that were calling me a troll earlier.
[/quote]
I don't agree with the analogy. A blade is not like a wooden bat.

FWIW I don't consider you a troll but you encourage them in this thread. I believe we have had some good discussion and dialog. And you don't make up someone else's argument just to try to make them look bad.

A better analogy is do you want to drive a hummer (CB) or Ferrari (blade). Both of these cars only perform as well as the driver but the Ferrari is driveable by nearly any driver.

[SeaOfGreen10]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428595085' post='11319439']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428585896' post='11318219']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428585176' post='11318133']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428582678' post='11317855']
GI irons don't help people improve their swing, they just help you score better on those occasions when you mishit the ball. If you never mishit the ball then play blades, and get an agent.

The science behind GI clubs is real. If you don't care then fine for you. Just understand that you are an outlier; 3 sigma in the normal distribution curve. Someone needs to be 3 sigma, so you guys are fulfilling a useful purpose in life.

When 3 sigma people think they are correct and everyone else is wrong that's when talk of conspiracy theories come in. Understand that companies like Mizuno and Ping, which attempt to guide players toward clubs which will provide an appropriate amount of help, are not trying to trick you. You just need to be properly aware of your surroundings to accept the help though.

Or just ignore the advice by industry leaders, claim conspiracy theory, and continue on playing your blades as a mid capper. Golf is just a game remember. Not life and death. Just hope you guys don't get a heart attack on the course when you dunk that 4 iron blade shot in the lake. Then it could be life or death. Hey, maybe they should provide a disclaimer on each set of blades they sell: Don't play blades as a mid capper if you have a heart condition. Now there's some useful information!
[/quote]
There's no outliers. You cannot prove this.

You cannot prove that GI clubs help score.

Because of this your tact is to mock or just make claims with limited to no backup.

You would make a better case if you had some side by side scoring data to compare. And not some argument like you played blades years ago.

Oh and don't you work in the golf industry?
[/quote]

Please remove references to "you" (me) and change it to Mizuno & Ping & Callaway (maybe others too), because these companies guide players towards clubs based on either Handicap or ability. Do you think it's a conspiracy against the golfing public to guide mid/high cappers towards GI equipment?

Do you wear a tin foil hat when you are hitting your blades?
[/quote]

In regards to your points about Mizuno, Callaway, and Ping, I have said it before. The manufacturers steer golfers toward a fictitious iron selection system using an arbitrary chart because of financial gain through potential future sales as the golfer gets better on his own accord rather than the club he is playing. They have classified their iron types by handicap level with…wait for it…NO DATA. They claim all this help to golfers with fancy marketing and meaningless numbers (MOI, and 40% bigger sweetspot!). But the real incentive is to have the golfer play as much GI improvement of a set as possible because that will mean he may buy more player's sets as he gets better, which he will likely do on his own accord. So the golfer is deluded into thinking a specific club type is exactly matched to his skill level so he follows the classification and will likely buy

It makes less financial sense if the golfer just buys the set he wants and gets better just using that set.

I play my blades with a golf hat. No tin foil. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's a simple marketing explanation.
[/quote]

Eh, except their are some major flaws in it, at least at first glance with no additional data:

1.) That people will buy blades when they get better. My personal experience, this isn't anywhere near the case. Considering a lot of the lowest handicaps on here are advocating CBs instead of blades even for themselves, it seems like that is completely made up. Would love to know the % of players that play blades, and specifically, very low handicaps (who the marketing teams are saying blades are for). Based on this thread, I think maybe companies need to start marketing blades for mid handicappers.

2.) That people only buy new iron sets when they reach a certain skill level. Especially diehard golfers who are going to drastically reduce their handicap to the point where they feel they can "graduate" to blades. If you buy based on that, you will have a handful of sets your entire life. I'd wager if you took a poll, you wouldn't have many people saying they only buy a club because their game has changed enough to warrant it.

I'm not saying these companies are 100% honest and up front, but this seems like a really weak explanation for wanting to have multiple iron sets for different skill levels.

[buzlin]

Legitimate question/idea (albeit maybe stupid), figure I should place it here since it's been discussed here. Hot spots on GI and/or SGI irons. Is it possible that under the specific circumstances you could get optimal(outside the norm) launch/spin conditions with a GI/SGI due to the thinner face (COR) and CG located farther from the face. And because of these things, the launch and spin are outside the normal range. Kinda like how a flyer lie is real due to lack of spin with short/mid irons out of rough. Anyway, just a brainstormed theory. Is it possible? Not talking about all the time, but in theory, is it possible?

[avrag]

About half an hour ago, I saw somebody hacking it around zig-zag on the 9th and 1st of Augusta National, who most certainly has no business playing blades. I think he would score a lot better, if he used SGI irons.

[Nine Miler]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428607055' post='11321219']
[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428606438' post='11321179']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428604528' post='11320915']
[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428603232' post='11320619']
I can feel great about hitting homers with a wooden bat all I want, but it's not going to matter because I can't make contact in the "fast" stall at the batting cage. See what I mean?
[/quote]
Only if you assume it is impossible.

Look at every golfer's hit patterns. There are a significant amount of strikes at the center area. Sure the worse golfer has a wider dispersion, but again there are a significant number showing ideal contact. A big hole at the center does not magically appear when the club is a blade and all of a sudden that golfer can no longer hit them there.

The club performance scales to the relative skill level of the golfer. All clubs do this. The golfer need only decide if he wants to work the ball or play straight shots.

And yes with practice a 12 can work the ball as well as his straight shots with just a setup change. Most don't because they are playing the wrong club for that type of shot. It is not impossible but just harder to work a CB by comparison, tweeners notwithstanding.
[/quote]

Of course it's possible to hit a home run with a wooden bat with enough practice, training, honing of skill... Etc, just like it's possible to strike a blade well, with enough practice...snip- see above.

If I make contact, it's going to go farther, and probably will be hit better, with faster ball speed with a composite bat, though since I am not good enough to use a wooden bat as effectively.

I know it's kind of a stretch, but that's a new angle, for those that were calling me a troll earlier.
[/quote]
I don't agree with the analogy. A blade is not like a wooden bat.

FWIW I don't consider you a troll but you encourage them in this thread. I believe we have had some good discussion and dialog. And you don't make up someone else's argument just to try to make them look bad.

A better analogy is do you want to drive a hummer (CB) or Ferrari (blade). Both of these cars only perform as well as the driver but the Ferrari is driveable by nearly any driver.
[/quote]

That is not really true either because the Ferrari clearly has more potential for performance than the the Hummer. A blade does not clearly offer more performance than the CB. So really, this is just like the wooden/composite bat thing. Anyone can hit a ball with a wooden bat, just like anyone can drive a Ferrari- but can they do it well?

The guy with the race track analogy with the transmissions and stuff I think was closer.

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428607055' post='11321219']
[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428606438' post='11321179']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428604528' post='11320915']
[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428603232' post='11320619']
I can feel great about hitting homers with a wooden bat all I want, but it's not going to matter because I can't make contact in the "fast" stall at the batting cage. See what I mean?
[/quote]
Only if you assume it is impossible.

Look at every golfer's hit patterns. There are a significant amount of strikes at the center area. Sure the worse golfer has a wider dispersion, but again there are a significant number showing ideal contact. A big hole at the center does not magically appear when the club is a blade and all of a sudden that golfer can no longer hit them there.

The club performance scales to the relative skill level of the golfer. All clubs do this. The golfer need only decide if he wants to work the ball or play straight shots.

And yes with practice a 12 can work the ball as well as his straight shots with just a setup change. Most don't because they are playing the wrong club for that type of shot. It is not impossible but just harder to work a CB by comparison, tweeners notwithstanding.
[/quote]

Of course it's possible to hit a home run with a wooden bat with enough practice, training, honing of skill... Etc, just like it's possible to strike a blade well, with enough practice...snip- see above.

If I make contact, it's going to go farther, and probably will be hit better, with faster ball speed with a composite bat, though since I am not good enough to use a wooden bat as effectively.

I know it's kind of a stretch, but that's a new angle, for those that were calling me a troll earlier.
[/quote]
I don't agree with the analogy. A blade is not like a wooden bat.

FWIW I don't consider you a troll but you encourage them in this thread. I believe we have had some good discussion and dialog. And you don't make up someone else's argument just to try to make them look bad.

A better analogy is do you want to drive a hummer (CB) or Ferrari (blade). Both of these cars only perform as well as the driver but the Ferrari is driveable by nearly any driver.
[/quote]

D, You know I have the utmost respect for you, but it is actually a near perfect analogy, and this is coming from someone who has played at the highest level of baseball that exists and has played SGI/GI/CBs and Blades.

Wood bats compared to metal bats is so close to the MB/CB argument. Why? The benefits and the differences of the two offerings are incredibly similar. A wood bat is solid and has a very small sweet spot, it also gives an absolute ton of feedback on a misshits. Metal bats are hollow, have thin walls, and very large sweetspots. The wood bat relies on mass to drive the ball, the metal on barrel flex and restitution to create trampoline effect to drive the ball. Many in the baseball world say that collegiate and HS players, who can use metal, should use wood for practice, in order to improve both strength and ability... I am a huge advocate of this.

The two differences I see are offset and weighting. Wood or metal, the baseball bat is shaped the same, but SGI/GI/CB tend to be more offset than MBs. If your game is hurt by offset, there is logic to say that the distance punished misses on a MB won't ruin your score as much as the too high/too left bias of the offset club (if you fall in this category, and I do). With weighting, you could make a SGI/GI/CB and a MB have the same swing weight, but unless you got some type of custom metal bat (which doesn't exist to my knowledge), the swing weight on the wood is always going to be much, much higher. So in that sense, the comparison isn't accurate, but as far as arguing contact misses (heel/toe vs center), its a fantastic comparison, one I have made many times with other ballplayers who golf as a hobby.

I can also tell you this: nothing feels better than a centered up ball with a wood bat, but they simply cannot perform the same as a metal (especially before they deadened the metal bats with BBCOR). The large sweetspot and trampoline effect of a metal bat cannot be over come as far as maxing your average distance.

Then again, this goes back to a ton of what was spoken about earlier. Unlike baseball, golf isn't about hitting it as far and hard as possible. In baseball there is no target to hit towards! Sure, good hitters may look to hit a ball a direction, but nobody thinks "I'm going to land it right there" when they are in the box. The ball is also moving... big difference, but again a reason why having a big sweetspot of a metal bat changes everything.

Since in golf you are rewarded for accuracy, and not raw distance, the comparisons are even more important in the SGI/GI/CB to MB argument. The wood bat (think the MB), rewards the feel player who can make consistent contact, but the metal bat covers up misses. The wood bat could be argued to give the player more control, and the feel of well struck wood is addicting, but the metal will help out a ton if you are not centering up consistently. Sounds kinda familiar, huh?

I would highly recommend any player use wood to practice, but if they can game metal, they should. This line of reasoning doesn't tell you much, as again, baseball rewards max distance, not max accuracy.

So as it could relate to the argument: I would never recommend any non-elite player use wood in games unless there is no choice. Why? Their off the sweetspot misses are going to be severely punished, and that hurts your numbers, why do it? The only argument can be a sheer desire to use wood, and if this is the case, go for it, but don't expect as good or better results if you aren't all over that sweetspot with really high frequency.

[Nine Miler]

The more I think about it, the more I think a blade is exactly like a wooden bat.

[Wknd_Warrior]

My experience with my clubs is I have to be outside the 150 marker for distance loss from a mis-hit to have a notable impact on shot dispersion. I assume a lot of players clubs aren't much better. I remember watching a guy toe ball his fancy players clubs 25 yards short of the green from 165. Why bother, really? If the best chance of getting each and every last ball flying as far and high as possible blows wind up your skirt than play SGI clubs. If you can't stand them or just have no interest in playing that kind of game, the best thing you can do for your game is not to play clubs designed to correct problems you don't have.

Admittedly these days that does leave some non traditional clubs on the table, so kudos to the manufacturers for starting to offer rational equipment with modern tech. It's still kind of slim picking as far as I can see.

This bit about practice enough is a red herring as well. You either have a swing that is at least capable of using your chosen tool, or you don't. It's not that hard and it's not rocket science. With the adoption of modern irons many mid amateurs simply flail at the ball as hard as they can with the hopes of getting "pro yardage", it's no wonder there may be some truth to some of what the haters are peddling in this thread.

The truth is, accuracy aside, most of these clubs are draw biased, hit the ball too high, have clumsy soles, compromised feedback and are butt ugly.

I suppose the case for the CB improves as you get into the longer irons. luckily the way lofts are creeping to feed the insatiable ego of the supposedly humble CB player, a lot of bags will have the right tool for most of the scoring clubs.

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='buzlin' timestamp='1428612821' post='11322037']
Legitimate question/idea (albeit maybe stupid), figure I should place it here since it's been discussed here. Hot spots on GI and/or SGI irons. Is it possible that under the specific circumstances you could get optimal(outside the norm) launch/spin conditions with a GI/SGI due to the thinner face (COR) and CG located farther from the face. And because of these things, the launch and spin are outside the normal range. Kinda like how a flyer lie is real due to lack of spin with short/mid irons out of rough. Anyway, just a brainstormed theory. Is it possible? Not talking about all the time, but in theory, is it possible?
[/quote]

Hot spot are an illusion from an engineering standpoint, but a reality to the player. Why? There is always a definitive center to the sweetspot of any type of club which is mathematically locatable and consistent if you understand the design engineering of that club. Let's call it "the sweetest spot". The reason people perceive the hot spot is due to their inconsistent strike with inconsistent (or lack of) feedback. If you are a 12, odds are you are around the center relatively frequently, but how often are you dead on it? Occasionally? So if the club doesn't provide good feedback, you may hit a bunch of shots around the "hot or sweetest spot" and these will fly a consistent distance. Since you will use these good strikes to calculate your average distance, when you do catch that perfect one, and it flies 5-10 yards further, you wonder why, and the answer is that there must be a hot spot, as you have heard the term before (we all have). So to the player, they absolutely exist. If the two strikes feel the same, and one jumps 5-10 yards more, the hot spot is very real to you, but as far as design, there is not a mythical and unexplainable hot spot.

This again is why MB (or a small cavity) favors the player with a smaller contact pattern. The pros miss the dead center a bunch too, but are around it much more. When you have a big cavity and thin face, that optimal spot becomes exponentially hotter than the area just next to it. Why? The math is dense, but the difference between optimal flex and near optimal flex is significant and non-linear related to distance changes, and the miss doesn't have to be big to see this. The SGI/CB club, when slightly missed (I'll just label it 1/10"), loses distance to harmonic vibration, torsion of the club, [b]AN​D[/b] changes in COR energy transfer at impulse. On the otherhand, a MB, which has no appreciable flex and restitution (its there but virtually insignificant, especially compared to a SGI type modern club), the optimal spot vs one just off doesn't change the distance much. Huh? Think about it. If you miss the MB by 1/10", the vibration and torsion is fairly small, so the loss of distance to "optimal" is also very small. This is distance control. Because the loss of energy transfer is only due to harmonic vibration and torsion of the club, and a small miss won't cause a ton of either of these factors.

As you get to bigger misses (think 1/2" off optimal spot), the shift is dramatic in favor of the CB. The MB, lacking COR to help facilitate energy transfer, loses significant distance to harmonic vibration and torsion when further off center. The CB/SGI/GI on the other hand, will be able to over come some of these vibration and torsional losses with the COR aiding in better energy transfer. The COR effect also will change the dynamics of flight and direction, as the club face is compressing and the curving nature of compression/restitution will alter spin and direction, most likely with some gear effect to bring the ball back online. This is why people who miss the center often and by a large margin typically benefit from SGI/GI/CB tech, where an individual that is constantly close to ideal may benefit more from a blade or a near blade with a smaller CB.

There are tons of other factors, but there is a reason why MOST non-elite players will have smaller overall dispersion areas with the CB/SGI/GI design, and a tighter dispersion area generally leads to lower scores.

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428613354' post='11322111']
The more I think about it, the more I think a blade is exactly like a wooden bat.
[/quote]

I can tell you from thousands of at bats worth of experience that at least as far as contact arguments... it really is.

[knock it close]

Anyone know what irons Spieth plays?

[mahonie]

[quote name='buzlin' timestamp='1428612821' post='11322037']
Legitimate question/idea (albeit maybe stupid), figure I should place it here since it's been discussed here. Hot spots on GI and/or SGI irons. Is it possible that under the specific circumstances you could get optimal(outside the norm) launch/spin conditions with a GI/SGI due to the thinner face (COR) and CG located farther from the face. And because of these things, the launch and spin are outside the normal range. Kinda like how a flyer lie is real due to lack of spin with short/mid irons out of rough. Anyway, just a brainstormed theory. Is it possible? Not talking about all the time, but in theory, is it possible?
[/quote]

I posted a link to a Terry Koehler (SCOR/Hogan) article a page or two back that discussed that exact thing. Using an Iron Byron, strikes from the sweet spot of a CB had a significant dispersion.

Here it is: http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/golf+equipment/5-2032-Blades_Versus_Cavity_Backs_A_Golf_Club_Epiphany.html

[duffer987]

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428613149' post='11322079']
That is not really true either because the Ferrari clearly has more potential for performance than the the Hummer. A blade does not clearly offer more performance than the CB. So really, this is just like the wooden/composite bat thing. Anyone can hit a ball with a wooden bat, just like anyone can drive a Ferrari- but can they do it well?

The guy with the race track analogy with the transmissions and stuff I think was closer.
[/quote]

Thanks
Comparing a hummer to a ferrari is a terrible analogy, might as well compare clown shoes to ballet slippers or shotgun to a spittball. They belong in two different places (circus/ballet and hunting/classroom) and have different purposes.

It looks like the bat one is much more a goer!
Can that get an analogy approved stamp on it or something?

[PeanutsDaddy]

[quote name='knock it close' timestamp='1428615333' post='11322355']
Anyone know what irons Spieth plays?
[/quote]

One's that work for [i]his[/i] game. We should all strive to do the same.

Boy do I love the Masters.