Could a 12 handicapper....

[cliffhanger]

[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428587615' post='11318409']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428587207' post='11318363']
[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428586991' post='11318339']
Can I get a quick summary of peoples views?

Golf companies message:[list=1]
[*]GI clubs are more forgiving on off center strikes.
[*]That will result in your mishits being closer to your intended target.
[*]More shots ending up near your intended target will lower your score.
[*]Golfers want to lower their score.
[/list]
Do you agree that the above 4 points are being promoted by the club manufacturers?

Do you agree that the above 4 points are true? If not, which ones do you feel are false (or perhaps exaggerated)
[/quote]
isn't the plan to hit the face in the middle regardless of what type of club it is? Or do you buy GI's so you can purposely hit it an inch out towards the toe each time?
[/quote]

Certainly the plan is to hit the sweet spot. Unfortunately some of us can't do that every time. My plan on par 3's is to get a hole in one too... I only succeeded once
[/quote]
so when you hit the sweet spot with your GI's... does it guarantee you will hit it close to your target?

[cliffhanger]

i thought that was an easy question... its either yes or no

[Nessism]

[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428588159' post='11318481']
[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428587615' post='11318409']
Certainly the plan is to hit the sweet spot. Unfortunately some of us can't do that every time. My plan on par 3's is to get a hole in one too... I only succeeded once
[/quote]
so when you hit the sweet spot with your GI's... does it guarantee you will hit it close to your target?
[/quote]

Two things must be achieved to get a good shot: solid contact with the ball and the club must be moving in the proper direction.

The club won't help with the direction thing, although GI clubs tend to skip off the turf and deviate less on a steep miss.

As far as solid contact is concern, the GI club will advance the ball more effectively when you miss the center of the face.

A GI club alone of course can't assure a good shot, it does improve the odds though.

[SeaOfGreen10]

[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428587207' post='11318363']
[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428586991' post='11318339']
Can I get a quick summary of peoples views?

Golf companies message:[list=1]
[*]GI clubs are more forgiving on off center strikes.
[*]That will result in your mishits being closer to your intended target.
[*]More shots ending up near your intended target will lower your score.
[*]Golfers want to lower their score.
[/list]
Do you agree that the above 4 points are being promoted by the club manufacturers?

Do you agree that the above 4 points are true? If not, which ones do you feel are false (or perhaps exaggerated)
[/quote]
isn't the plan to hit the face in the middle regardless of what type of club it is? Or do you buy GI's so you can purposely hit it an inch out towards the toe each time?
[/quote]

In theory, but its completely unrealistic, at least for me. My plan is to be as close as possible as often as possible, but to plan, and buy equipment based on that, would be a disservice to my game.

[Jon H]

[quote name='jonn443' timestamp='1428587076' post='11318345']
I may be wrong but shouldn't a 12 (like myself) be averaging rounds in the range of 84-86? That's about where my average round is,occasionally hitting 80,82 and a 88...lol
[/quote]

Depends on the course you play most, but that is the size of it, in my experience.

[cliffhanger]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428588526' post='11318523']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428588159' post='11318481']
[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428587615' post='11318409']
Certainly the plan is to hit the sweet spot. Unfortunately some of us can't do that every time. My plan on par 3's is to get a hole in one too... I only succeeded once
[/quote]
so when you hit the sweet spot with your GI's... does it guarantee you will hit it close to your target?
[/quote]

Two things must be achieved to get a good shot: solid contact with the ball and the club must be moving in the proper direction.

The club won't help with the direction thing, although GI clubs tend to skip off the turf and deviate less on a steep miss.

As far as solid contact is concern, the GI club will advance the ball more effectively when you miss the center of the face.

A GI club alone of course can't assure a good shot, it does improve the odds though.
[/quote]i like how you tip toed around it... i asked if hitting the sweetspot on your GI's is guaranteeing a close to target result. yes or no

i do not need all the extra filler about "good shots" and stuff.

[SeaOfGreen10]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428585176' post='11318133']
Oh and don't you work in the golf industry?
[/quote]

I don't mean this as a leading question; I'm honestly curious. If there is no advantage to mid-to-higher cappers playing GIs, what do golf companies stand to gain by covering up this fact? Why waste money developing multiple clubs, when you can put forth a blade and market it as a club that anyone can play?

From my experience, people prefer the look of blades to GIs in general. So why not go all in, and say your company made a club with the look people want, and one that won't negatively impact an "average" golfers ball striking or scoring? Wouldn't that, if true, sell like crazy?

[Jon H]

[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428586991' post='11318339']
Can I get a quick summary of peoples views?

Golf companies message:[list=1]
[*]GI clubs are more forgiving on off center strikes.
[*]That will result in your mishits being closer to your intended target.
[*]More shots ending up near your intended target will lower your score.
[*]Golfers want to lower their score.
[/list]
Do you agree that the above 4 points are being promoted by the club manufacturers?

Do you agree that the above 4 points are true? If not, which ones do you feel are false (or perhaps exaggerated)
[/quote]

1. Depends on what forgivness you need. If the club face is not square or the shots hit are fat you need different types of forgivness.

2. Again it depends what the preffered miss is.

3. Also depends.

4. For most, yes. I have seen guys play to have fun and scores be damned.

[avrag]

[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428586991' post='11318339']
Can I get a quick summary of peoples views?

Golf companies message:[list=1]
[*]GI clubs are more forgiving on off center strikes.
[*]That will result in your mishits being closer to your intended target.
[*]More shots ending up near your intended target will lower your score.
[*]Golfers want to lower their score.
[/list]
Do you agree that the above 4 points are being promoted by the club manufacturers?

Do you agree that the above 4 points are true? If not, which ones do you feel are false (or perhaps exaggerated)
[/quote]

2, 3 and 4
2: the mishits will not be closer per se, they will have a bigger chance of not coming up short. You can play around the short miss, at least on certain courses, and, on certain courses, the short miss will be the best miss.
3: not necessarily (see 2). Short and in the fairway or even a greenside biunker might be a lot more playable than pin high left or right (especially when short-sided)
4: not necessarily. Some people are purely interested in the result (as in numbers), some people are more interested in the process or in results, which cannot be measured by numbers.

[cliffhanger]

What if your miss was not a result of poor contact? what is a GI club going to do (over a Players cavity or a blade) that would change the result?

I love how everyone assumes a miss is caused by poor contact... all i hear about is correcting misses with GI's.

[T.Beau]

[quote name='SeaOfGreen10' timestamp='1428588994' post='11318581']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428585176' post='11318133']
Oh and don't you work in the golf industry?
[/quote]

I don't mean this as a leading question; I'm honestly curious. If there is no advantage to mid-to-higher cappers playing GIs, what do golf companies stand to gain by covering up this fact? Why waste money developing multiple clubs, when you can put forth a blade and market it as a club that anyone can play?

From my experience, people prefer the look of blades to GIs in general. So why not go all in, and say your company made a club with the look people want, and one that won't negatively impact an "average" golfers ball striking or scoring? Wouldn't that, if true, sell like crazy?
[/quote]

Indeed, what could possibly be gained by a company steering a consumer into buying a product that doesnt have the best chance of working for them? The consumer would use it, discover it doesnt perform well (because they arent good enough to use it well), and then blame the manufacturer.....some of the stuff people say around here to advance their precious blades status is just flat out bizarro land

It's along the lines when all those people here used to proclaim all stock driver shafts as crap...like any quality manufacturer would ship out drivers w. non performing shafts. that doesnt seem to happen much around here which is good...hopefully the bizarre bladespeak will subside one of these days as well.

[Nessism]

[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589379' post='11318625']
What if your miss was not a result of poor contact? what is a GI club going to do (over a Players cavity or a blade) that would change the result?

I love how everyone assumes a miss is caused by poor contact... all i hear about is correcting misses with GI's.
[/quote]

Poor contact is where GI clubs will help you. If you don't want or don't need the help then fine. Most 12 handicappers could use the help though.

[wetdogsmell]

[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428588159' post='11318481']
[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428587615' post='11318409']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428587207' post='11318363']
[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428586991' post='11318339']
Can I get a quick summary of peoples views?

Golf companies message:[list=1]
[*]GI clubs are more forgiving on off center strikes.
[*]That will result in your mishits being closer to your intended target.
[*]More shots ending up near your intended target will lower your score.
[*]Golfers want to lower their score.
[/list]
Do you agree that the above 4 points are being promoted by the club manufacturers?

Do you agree that the above 4 points are true? If not, which ones do you feel are false (or perhaps exaggerated)
[/quote]
isn't the plan to hit the face in the middle regardless of what type of club it is? Or do you buy GI's so you can purposely hit it an inch out towards the toe each time?
[/quote]

Certainly the plan is to hit the sweet spot. Unfortunately some of us can't do that every time. My plan on par 3's is to get a hole in one too... I only succeeded once
[/quote]
so when you hit the sweet spot with your GI's... does it guarantee you will hit it close to your target?
[/quote]

No.

When you hit the sweet spot on your blades... does it guarantee you will hit it close to your target?

[cliffhanger]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428589750' post='11318687']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589379' post='11318625']
What if your miss was not a result of poor contact? what is a GI club going to do (over a Players cavity or a blade) that would change the result?

I love how everyone assumes a miss is caused by poor contact... all i hear about is correcting misses with GI's.
[/quote]

Poor contact is where GI clubs will help you. If you don't want or don't need the help then fine. Most 12 handicappers could use the help though.
[/quote]why would you assume that most 12's could use the help

[cliffhanger]

[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428589856' post='11318705']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428588159' post='11318481']
[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428587615' post='11318409']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428587207' post='11318363']
[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428586991' post='11318339']
Can I get a quick summary of peoples views?

Golf companies message:[list=1]
[*]GI clubs are more forgiving on off center strikes.
[*]That will result in your mishits being closer to your intended target.
[*]More shots ending up near your intended target will lower your score.
[*]Golfers want to lower their score.
[/list]
Do you agree that the above 4 points are being promoted by the club manufacturers?

Do you agree that the above 4 points are true? If not, which ones do you feel are false (or perhaps exaggerated)
[/quote]
isn't the plan to hit the face in the middle regardless of what type of club it is? Or do you buy GI's so you can purposely hit it an inch out towards the toe each time?
[/quote]

Certainly the plan is to hit the sweet spot. Unfortunately some of us can't do that every time. My plan on par 3's is to get a hole in one too... I only succeeded once
[/quote]
so when you hit the sweet spot with your GI's... does it guarantee you will hit it close to your target?
[/quote]

No.

When you hit the sweet spot on your blades... does it guarantee you will hit it close to your target?
[/quote]
no it doesn't either... thank you. The issue here is the assumption that because i do not hit every green in regulation with my so called blades, i do not hit solid shots.

[T.Beau]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428562461' post='11317195']
I need to tell him about the multiple account posters.
[/quote]

i was wondering about that. in a tennis forum i was compensated to participate in, some posters got caught doing that. they would have these alter ego accounts who would give each other props in threads, give each other likes, and stuff like that. very creepy stuff..i wouldnt put it past a few zealots here from doing stuff like that.

[Nessism]

[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589904' post='11318717']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428589750' post='11318687']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589379' post='11318625']
What if your miss was not a result of poor contact? what is a GI club going to do (over a Players cavity or a blade) that would change the result?

I love how everyone assumes a miss is caused by poor contact... all i hear about is correcting misses with GI's.
[/quote]

Poor contact is where GI clubs will help you. If you don't want or don't need the help then fine. Most 12 handicappers could use the help though.
[/quote]why would you assume that most 12's could use the help
[/quote]

Because most 12's don't hit the ball all that solid. My handicap is almost 1/2 of 12 and I know I don't.

Next time you play listen to the sound of impact on both your shots and your playing partners. When someone nuts the shot the ball come off the face with a quiet thud. It almost sounds soft. Anything less than hearing this sound means the player miss hit the shot in some way.

[cliffhanger]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428590446' post='11318789']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589904' post='11318717']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428589750' post='11318687']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589379' post='11318625']
What if your miss was not a result of poor contact? what is a GI club going to do (over a Players cavity or a blade) that would change the result?

I love how everyone assumes a miss is caused by poor contact... all i hear about is correcting misses with GI's.
[/quote]

Poor contact is where GI clubs will help you. If you don't want or don't need the help then fine. Most 12 handicappers could use the help though.
[/quote]why would you assume that most 12's could use the help
[/quote]

Because most 12's don't hit the ball all that solid. My handicap is almost 1/2 of 12 and I know I don't.

Next time you play listen to the sound of impact on both your shots and your playing partners. When someone nuts the shot the ball come off the face with a quiet thud. It almost sounds soft. Anything less than hearing this sound means the player miss hit the shot in some way.
[/quote]i miss sometimes too... so lol... i do know what a miss sounds like. However i hit more solid shots by far than missed shots. There are so many more variables that result in a missed green with an iron other than poor contact. The big difference between a 12 and a 6 is that the 12 get's up and down for par about 6 times less per round... not much difference there.

[cliffhanger]

i do find it hard to believe that golfers who shoot in the low to mid 80"s do not hit the ball solidly

[cvvorst]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1428590317' post='11318773']
[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428562461' post='11317195']
I need to tell him about the multiple account posters.
[/quote]

i was wondering about that. in a tennis forum i was compensated to participate in, some posters got caught doing that. they would have these alter ego accounts who would give each other props in threads, give each other likes, and stuff like that. very creepy stuff..i wouldnt put it past a few zealots here from doing stuff like that.
[/quote]

Is this what this thread has degenerated into? Random accusations about fake accounts?


There are plenty of people on both sides who are reasonable and can have a civil conversation about this topic, but the loudest ones are the posters who like to insult the other posters who disagree with them.

[govols]

[quote name='JasonFL' timestamp='1428583521' post='11317947'][quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428582678' post='11317855']
GI irons don't help people improve their swing, they just help you score better on those occasions when you mishit the ball. If you never mishit the ball then play blades, and get an agent.

The science behind GI clubs is real. If you don't care then fine for you. Just understand that you are an outlier; 3 sigma in the normal distribution curve. Someone needs to be 3 sigma, so you guys are fulfilling a useful purpose in life.

When 3 sigma people think they are correct and everyone else is wrong that's when talk of conspiracy theories come in. Understand that companies like Mizuno and Ping, which attempt to guide players toward clubs which will provide an appropriate amount of help, are not trying to trick you. You just need to be properly aware of your surroundings to accept the help though.

Or just ignore the advice by industry leaders, claim conspiracy theory, and continue on playing your blades as a mid capper. Golf is just a game remember. Not life and death. Just hope you guys don't get a heart attack on the course when you dunk that 4 iron blade shot in the lake. Then it could be life or death. Hey, maybe they should provide a disclaimer on each set of blades they sell: Don't play blades as a mid capper if you have a heart condition. Now there's some useful information!
[/quote]
When you say mis-hit are you talking out on the chrome? Or barely inside the chrome near the toe?

Because I havent noticed any distance lost when I am 1/4" either side of center with my Macs.[/quote]

Nobody believes this

[wetdogsmell]

The only real answer here is: "Go get fit for your clubs".

That way if you are an elite ball striker 12 HC you will end up with your blades if you want. If you are a 12 that needs help with losing distance on toe strikes you will probably get a more GI club.

While there are certainly exceptions (which is what i believe is fueling this thread...) the majority of folks would probably benefit from a little help that a CB or GI provides. It won't help with direction, but it will most likely help with distance falloff on mishits.

Help with one variable (distance vs side to side) can only be a good thing.

[govols]

[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428588933' post='11318567'][quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428588526' post='11318523']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428588159' post='11318481']
[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428587615' post='11318409']
Certainly the plan is to hit the sweet spot. Unfortunately some of us can't do that every time. My plan on par 3's is to get a hole in one too... I only succeeded once
[/quote]
so when you hit the sweet spot with your GI's... does it guarantee you will hit it close to your target?
[/quote]

Two things must be achieved to get a good shot: solid contact with the ball and the club must be moving in the proper direction.

The club won't help with the direction thing, although GI clubs tend to skip off the turf and deviate less on a steep miss.

As far as solid contact is concern, the GI club will advance the ball more effectively when you miss the center of the face.

A GI club alone of course can't assure a good shot, it does improve the odds though.
[/quote]i like how you tip toed around it... i asked if hitting the sweetspot on your GI's is guaranteeing a close to target result. yes or no

i do not need all the extra filler about "good shots" and stuff.[/quote]

So your argument is a solid blade will?

[cliffhanger]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428591289' post='11318897']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428588933' post='11318567'][quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428588526' post='11318523']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428588159' post='11318481']
[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1428587615' post='11318409']
Certainly the plan is to hit the sweet spot. Unfortunately some of us can't do that every time. My plan on par 3's is to get a hole in one too... I only succeeded once
[/quote]
so when you hit the sweet spot with your GI's... does it guarantee you will hit it close to your target?
[/quote]

Two things must be achieved to get a good shot: solid contact with the ball and the club must be moving in the proper direction.

The club won't help with the direction thing, although GI clubs tend to skip off the turf and deviate less on a steep miss.

As far as solid contact is concern, the GI club will advance the ball more effectively when you miss the center of the face.

A GI club alone of course can't assure a good shot, it does improve the odds though.
[/quote]i like how you tip toed around it... i asked if hitting the sweetspot on your GI's is guaranteeing a close to target result. yes or no

i do not need all the extra filler about "good shots" and stuff.[/quote]

So your argument is a solid blade will?
[/quote]no it is not. Neither club hit solidly will guarantee anything. However with that said, when a mid capper who plays a smaller cavity or blade misses a shot... it is assumed that it was a mishit and thus he or she would benefit from a larger more forgiving club head. My point is... that is not always the case.

[T.Beau]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428590446' post='11318789']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589904' post='11318717']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428589750' post='11318687']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589379' post='11318625']
What if your miss was not a result of poor contact? what is a GI club going to do (over a Players cavity or a blade) that would change the result?

I love how everyone assumes a miss is caused by poor contact... all i hear about is correcting misses with GI's.
[/quote]

Poor contact is where GI clubs will help you. If you don't want or don't need the help then fine. Most 12 handicappers could use the help though.
[/quote]why would you assume that most 12's could use the help
[/quote]

Because most 12's don't hit the ball all that solid. My handicap is almost 1/2 of 12 and I know I don't.


[/quote]

and if memory serves you are using some sort of g series irons? i miss hit as well and i am 1/2 of yours. everyone miss hits..obviously some more than others....and to varying degrees

i;ve only had two on course experiences w. blade guys in the recent past. one is a regular playing partner and the other is a guy i played w. a few times because one of the regulars in our gang brought him along. one is a 4 cap or so, the other is prob a 24 or so. blades are a non factor where i am

[Nine Miler]

I still think there are some folks in this thread that either 1. Don't understand what solid contact actually is, or 2. Have an extremely liberal definition of it.

[cliffhanger]

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428592546' post='11319071']
I still think there are some folks in this thread that either 1. Don't understand what solid contact actually is, or 2. Have an extremely liberal definition of it.
[/quote]i love this guy... trolls it right up with a new angle... lol.

[Nine Miler]

I'm not really looking for a reaction, so no troll. Just callin em as I sees em.

[cliffhanger]

i still think there are some folks in this thread that think because they had their balls surgically removed, that all of us should.

[Tcann32]

[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589379' post='11318625']
What if your miss was not a result of poor contact? what is a GI club going to do (over a Players cavity or a blade) that would change the result?

I love how everyone assumes a miss is caused by poor contact... all i hear about is correcting misses with GI's.
[/quote]

I believe I tried making this point several times and it was disregarded. Poor shot selection, mis-alignment, and misses that no type of club would help don't seem to be considered. If your not hitting shanks and slices while getting consistent distance and trajectory, what's going to help outside of a better swing?