Hogan question...and a Happy New Years!

[Juice__25]

Just wanted to post a quick question before I head out for New Years.

 

I've always wondered how the Hogan name has stayed relatively clean through the equipment industry versus the Nicklaus and Palmer names. Nicklaus and Palmer have somewhat been passed around, and are not synonymous with high quality equipment. While the hogan name has somewhat maintained a level of quality despite being sold or acquired, especially with the newer Ft. Worths, the other names haven't. Nicklaus or Golden Bear became department store brands. And I remember Palmers were sold at Kmart because my Aunt bought my cousin a set when she was younger.

 

Also I have noticed that golf clubs using players names stopped around 1995 or so. I remember the special grind wedges, and maybe some Greg Norman stuff, but after the early 90s no more signatures on golf equipment.

 

In my history, I've owned: Snead, Nicklaus, Palmer, hogan, player, Watson, PATTY BERG, trevinos, and even Nancy Lopez endorsed or signature clubs. Even somewhat later on there were club maker named or designed clubs like, Don White grind wedges.

 

1. How did the hogan name stay clean vs Palmer and Nicklaus?

2. Who now owns the Palmer, Nicklaus, or golden bear names?

3. Why don't you see players signatures on clubs anymore?

4. Happy New Year!!

 

5. It would be nice to own a set of Woods or Speith signature or name brand irons.

[dlygrisse]

In their prime Palmer and Nicklaus endorsed clubs that were a line of clubs under the umbrella of an OEM. Nicklaus was MacGregor and they had a tradition of using players names on their clubs such as Armour.

Hogan started his own company with an emphasis on quality and he was the actual CEO. Therefore they always had the reputation as being of high quality. MacGregor made great clubs. Arguably the best persimmons of all time and great irons. They along with Hogan just did not keep up with modern tech and marketing.

Later in his career Jack left MacGregor and bought I believe Tony Penna golf and changed it to Nicklaus. They made great clubs but just never gained market share. Palmer was under the Peerless umbrella I believe and they never were a major player.

In this day and age putting a players name on a club just does not ooze quality. A owners name or a designers name adds more street cred.

[Juice__25]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1451615892' post='12786822']
In their prime Palmer and Nicklaus endorsed clubs that were a line of clubs under the umbrella of an OEM. Nicklaus was MacGregor and they had a tradition of using players names on their clubs such as Armour.

Hogan started his own company with an emphasis on quality and he was the actual CEO. Therefore they always had the reputation as being of high quality. MacGregor made great clubs. Arguably the best persimmons of all time and great irons. They along with Hogan just did not keep up with modern tech and marketing.

Later in his career Jack left MacGregor and bought I believe Tony Penna golf and changed it to Nicklaus. They made great clubs but just never gained market share. Palmer was under the Peerless umbrella I believe and they never were a major player.

In this day and age putting a players name on a club just does not ooze quality. A owners name or a designers name adds more street cred.
[/quote]

That's about what I figured. Thanks for your knowledge.

Would be cool to see a Woods/Wishon iron or something to that effect, combining the two spectrums.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='Juice__25' timestamp='1451616778' post='12786882'][quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1451615892' post='12786822']
In their prime Palmer and Nicklaus endorsed clubs that were a line of clubs under the umbrella of an OEM. Nicklaus was MacGregor and they had a tradition of using players names on their clubs such as Armour.

Hogan started his own company with an emphasis on quality and he was the actual CEO. Therefore they always had the reputation as being of high quality. MacGregor made great clubs. Arguably the best persimmons of all time and great irons. They along with Hogan just did not keep up with modern tech and marketing.

Later in his career Jack left MacGregor and bought I believe Tony Penna golf and changed it to Nicklaus. They made great clubs but just never gained market share. Palmer was under the Peerless umbrella I believe and they never were a major player.

In this day and age putting a players name on a club just does not ooze quality. A owners name or a designers name adds more street cred.
[/quote]

That's about what I figured. Thanks for your knowledge.

Would be cool to see a Woods/Wishon iron or something to that effect, combining the two spectrums.[/quote]there was a thread a while back talking about Jack signing with Muira. Don't know if they will have a signature Nicklaus line or not?

[majic]

Well first let me say times have changed and marketing of all kinds of goods we buy has changed.
Jack at one time owned part of MacGregor, at the end of Mac Norman owned it. Norman's Cobra clubs were popular.
Hogan was owned at one time by Cosmo a Japanese firm. Not sure they did it any good. Spalding owned it and made nice product but quickly it was owned by Callaway. Now a clothing company owns it and has clubs being made by a firm.
Nicklaus ended up through some dealings with the Toney Penna - Nicklaus company had great clubs designed by Clay Long and also made Golden Bear for mass market. Not much different then today's big guys do box sets. Palmer hooked up with the great First Flight company to form Progroup and they made some great clubs. Management led them and all their brands into the tank.
Clubs with these great players names are good clubs. Just bad company management at the time of transition in golf clubs to cast irons and metal woods.
Players today are paid big money to play equipment. It is easier and safer (no bad rounds) to use a designer or company brand on product. Marketing people would prefer to just use one name. Brand equity.
You can get your "players" club by checking WITB and buying the replica club.
My final thought it is a different world today then 1980-90

[Juice__25]

[quote name='majic' timestamp='1451677617' post='12789120']
Well first let me say times have changed and marketing of all kinds of goods we buy has changed.
Jack at one time owned part of MacGregor, at the end of Mac Norman owned it. Norman's Cobra clubs were popular.
Hogan was owned at one time by Cosmo a Japanese firm. Not sure they did it any good. Spalding owned it and made nice product but quickly it was owned by Callaway. Now a clothing company owns it and has clubs being made by a firm.
Nicklaus ended up through some dealings with the Toney Penna - Nicklaus company had great clubs designed by Clay Long and also made Golden Bear for mass market. Not much different then today's big guys do box sets. Palmer hooked up with the great First Flight company to form Progroup and they made some great clubs. Management led them and all their brands into the tank.
Clubs with these great players names are good clubs. Just bad company management at the time of transition in golf clubs to cast irons and metal woods.
Players today are paid big money to play equipment. It is easier and safer (no bad rounds) to use a designer or company brand on product. Marketing people would prefer to just use one name. Brand equity.
You can get your "players" club by checking WITB and buying the replica club.
My final thought it is a different world today then 1980-90
[/quote]

Excellent summary. I agree times are different, marketing is different.

[Shallowface]

Here are the details of the end of Palmer's equipment company.

[url="http://m.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2000/06/20000626/This-Weeks-Issue/Arnie-Joins-Callaway146s-Army-In-Sale-Of-Golf-Equipment-Company.aspx"]http://m.sportsbusin...nt-Company.aspx[/url]

Of course, that led to his endorsement of the non-conforming ERC driver and the infamous Golf Channel interview which cost Peter Kessler his job.

Palmer left no stone unturned when it came to making a buck (not that I blame him). It didn't even bother him when Mike Wallace called him "a shill" on 60 Minutes.

[url="https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/magazine/1977/09/18/up-against-the-wallace/50043a38-d89c-4661-93cb-5ff3c5935bd9/"]https://www.washingt...b-5ff3c5935bd9/[/url]

Does anyone remember Arnold Palmer Dry Cleaners?

Shortly after Palmer left Wilson and signed on with PG for them to make pro line clubs bearing his name, he signed a separate deal with Sears to allow them to sell store line clubs bearing his name. More than a few club pros were upset. Not sure that his pro line efforts ever recovered from that.

His Peerless persimmon woods from the 80s were some of the very best of that day.

[Juice__25]

[quote name='Shallowface' timestamp='1451683454' post='12789472']
Here are the details of the end of Palmer's equipment company.

[url="http://m.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2000/06/20000626/This-Weeks-Issue/Arnie-Joins-Callaway146s-Army-In-Sale-Of-Golf-Equipment-Company.aspx"]http://m.sportsbusin...nt-Company.aspx[/url]

Of course, that led to his endorsement of the non-conforming ERC driver and the infamous Golf Channel interview which cost Peter Kessler his job.

Palmer left no stone unturned when it came to making a buck (not that I blame him). It didn't even bother him when Mike Wallace called him "a shill" on 60 Minutes.

[url="https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/magazine/1977/09/18/up-against-the-wallace/50043a38-d89c-4661-93cb-5ff3c5935bd9/"]https://www.washingt...b-5ff3c5935bd9/[/url]

Does anyone remember Arnold Palmer Dry Cleaners?

Shortly after Palmer left Wilson and signed on with PG for them to make pro line clubs bearing his name, he signed a separate deal with Sears to allow them to sell store line clubs bearing his name. More than a few club pros were upset. Not sure that his pro line efforts ever recovered from that.

His Peerless persimmon woods from the 80s were some of the very best of that day.
[/quote]

Crazy!

Google search, not my own.

[Reds]

Reading this thread made me think of a picture I too at Kings West in Myrtle Beach. They have a bunch of Palmer memorabilia and had a set of his clubs on display. It said on a plaque that they were used by him but it couldnt have been long. They still looked new! Sorry its sideways. It was taken on my phone.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='mada35' timestamp='1451784915' post='12794018']
Reading this thread made me think of a picture I too at Kings West in Myrtle Beach. They have a bunch of Palmer memorabilia and had a set of his clubs on display. It said on a plaque that they were used by him but it couldnt have been long. They still looked new! Sorry its sideways. It was taken on my phone.
[/quote]Some of that equipment used to sit at Bay tree in NMB before it closed 9 years or so ago. I can remember one set of Peerless forged CB irons that set up there and had gobs of lead tape on them. I never saw them at MBN though. The set you have posted in the pic has been there for years as far as I can remember

[Reds]

[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1451819851' post='12795298']
[quote name='mada35' timestamp='1451784915' post='12794018']
Reading this thread made me think of a picture I too at Kings West in Myrtle Beach. They have a bunch of Palmer memorabilia and had a set of his clubs on display. It said on a plaque that they were used by him but it couldnt have been long. They still looked new! Sorry its sideways. It was taken on my phone.
[/quote]Some of that equipment used to sit at Bay tree in NMB before it closed 9 years or so ago. I can remember one set of Peerless forged CB irons that set up there and had gobs of lead tape on them. I never saw them at MBN though. The set you have posted in the pic has been there for years as far as I can remember
[/quote]

The clubs in the picture I took had lead tape all over them. They even had a red travel case there that he flew his clubs with and a bunch of hats with his signiture on them. It was pretty cool. Im playing the North course when I head down there in March and everyone I talk too say its the best MBN course.

[jonnygrouville]

I got my better-half a Palmer handbag on one of my many Hong Kong trips a few years ago. Honestly is a fashion brand out there, and they were going ape poo-poo over that stuff.

 

[BIG STU]

[quote name='mada35' timestamp='1451829721' post='12795528']
[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1451819851' post='12795298']
[quote name='mada35' timestamp='1451784915' post='12794018']
Reading this thread made me think of a picture I too at Kings West in Myrtle Beach. They have a bunch of Palmer memorabilia and had a set of his clubs on display. It said on a plaque that they were used by him but it couldnt have been long. They still looked new! Sorry its sideways. It was taken on my phone.
[/quote]Some of that equipment used to sit at Bay tree in NMB before it closed 9 years or so ago. I can remember one set of Peerless forged CB irons that set up there and had gobs of lead tape on them. I never saw them at MBN though. The set you have posted in the pic has been there for years as far as I can remember
[/quote]

The clubs in the picture I took had lead tape all over them. They even had a red travel case there that he flew his clubs with and a bunch of hats with his signiture on them. It was pretty cool. Im playing the North course when I head down there in March and everyone I talk too say its the best MBN course.
[/quote]Absolutely King's North is the best and hardest but I like all of the courses at MBN

[Forged4ever]

Excellent posts and great info!!

 

Very Well Played!!

 

Though Jack bought Mac, I do not believe that he ever purchased Tomey Penna's company-

 

Hopefully Mr. Penna's nephew and his Bro Charley's son, also named Charley, sees this thread and drops in-

 

As Kathy Marie and you guys know, he's a Class Act with incredible stories from his father and uncle's Day-

 

Though I Played Staff from 1967-1987 due to my Grandmother's relationship with them and then my Teacher Pete's, all three, Sam included, Played first rebadged Mac drivers and woods, and then when Toney Penna left Mac as their Senior Designer to do his thing, they all three Played rebadged Penna drivers and woods(By rebadged I am speaking to having the Staff lettering and emblem on them per their Staff Contracts and though my Grandmother was an Am, her agreement was for all clubs except her putter had to be Staff)

 

My first Penna driver was a gorgeous blonde beast that was my 16th BDay present from Pete. I Alternated that driver with another Penna until I put metal in the bag way down the road(My Fairways woods were always Powerbilt Citations).

 

Though Staff holds the record with 61 Major Champions having won their Majors with Staff irons, Mac was right there with 59-

 

HaHa, thank the Good Lord for Paddy, LMAO

 

Mac's "stable" was an incredible group of designers and grinders, all HoFers, and the kicker?

 

David Graham, who Jack brought to Mac as Chief Designer because they had gone to s***, after the purchase by Brunswick and their move to GA, along with Toney Penna's departure and the men that he took, won a Major with his own designed club, lol

 

Jack thought that the best irons were those designed by a Player, such as Tommy Armour and then Toney Penna(4 PGA Victories)-

 

Though legendary designer Jack Wullkotte went with Mr. Penna, Jack brought him back in 1974ish. Jack was was also Jack's personal club maker and repairman from 1963 onward-

 

Of Wullkotte Tom Weikopf said, "Jack could bend your iron in a door jam," lol

 

Times were different then and these were true Craftsmen, having passed their trade down from one generation to the next-

 

They were not assembly line workers, lol.

 

Regarding Palmer, as Shallow said, he would slap his name on anything, made anywhere, by anyone and I know that he personally called Pete when he was the HP at our club to ask him if he'd carry his golf wear and Pete said "Arnie, this is a top tier club, not Sears," LMAO x 2

 

Where do you think Sam got his "edge" from, LMAO

 

Anyhoo, everything comes back to the almighty buck, and outside of Tiger in his Glory Days, I just don't see anyone carrying that kind of weight, even Jordan, who is my fave young guy-

 

Before VJ jumped ship from Staff, when they backed him into a corner and basically forced him to Play the Tour Forged RM Tours, they offered to put his initials, "VJ," in place of Mendrellas, "RM," along with giving him a cut of sales, and in response VJ chirped, "Who in the hell is going to buy an iron I play outside of a family member? I'll starve," LMAO

 

Say what you will however VJ is an astute guy, lol

 

Oh yea, a couple of cool factoids from a bygone era-

 

Tommy Armour, my Teacher's Teacher/Protege and Friend had "LFF" stamped on the bottom of his Mac woods.

 

What did that stand for?

 

"Let the F***er Fly"

 

In appreciation for his service to Mac, at the 1964 Masters, Mac gave Mr. Penna an iron with the number 17,936,732 stamped on it-

 

That signifies the number of clubs made during his tenure!!!

 

Stay Well Kathy Marie & Bros and Happy New Year :)

 

Golfingly Yours,

RP

[BIG STU]

^^^ RP I think Nathaniel Crosby Bing Crosby's son bought The Penna company in the 70s Mr. Penna can tell us for sure.

ROTFLMAO on what Pete told Mr. Palmer I would have liked to seen the look on Mr. Palmer's face when Pete told him that ----Priceless!!

[Shallowface]

http://golfweek.com/news/2002/feb/26/one-more-time/?print&popup=true

 

A group headed by Nathaniel Crosby bought the Penna Company in 1988.

Nelson Doubleday Jr. purchased a controlling interest in 1989.

Then Nicklaus and Doubleday formed a 50/50 partnership in 1992 and Penna became Nicklaus Golf. Nathaniel Crosby remained involved with the new entity.

This info is from Ralph Maltby's 1998 Price Guide.

If you look on Ebay for the last iron produced by Penna, the Innovator, and then look for the first iron from Nicklaus Golf, the N1, you'll see they are virtually identical.

[Juice__25]

Thanks RP for such a great post. I may stamp LFF on the sole of my clubs for now on!

 

"Let the F***er Fly"

 

And this has to be the best thing I've ever read EVER on wrx.

 

Regarding Palmer, as Shallow said, he would slap his name on anything, made anywhere, by anyone and I know that he personally called Pete when he was the HP at our club to ask him if he'd carry his golf wear and Pete said "Arnie, this is a top tier club, not Sears," LMAO x 2

[Shallowface]

From a 1992 Penna brochure:

 

 

 

 

From the 1995 Nicklaus catalog:

 

 

 

 

From a 1996 Nicklaus brochure:

 

 

 

[jonnygrouville]

A mate of mine used the Nicklaus version of that Penna driver at college. We called it "the crud-catcher".

[mocokid]

I know Sam Snead never used Wilson woods. any truth to the tale he used a Geo Izett driver (or 2 wood) for years, and then 1 day it completely cracked, and he was very sad ? I agree that TPenna made some of the best ever drivers, especially the persimmon era when he had his own company (70s to 80s). If you look at pix of TWatson he always has a TP driver (1970s- 80s) when he was with Ram, and won all of his majors.

[super20dan]

hogan stayed top quality cause everyone was afraid of hogan,s ghost

[xgolfx]

I had some involvement in the events depicted above. Part of the statements are true, some are not.

 

CHARLEY PENNA

[xgolfx]

Watson won most of his majors with a Toney Penna driver he got from Lanny Wadkins. SAM SNEAD used a driver Toney made him with a Wilson plate on the sole in order for Sam to keep his contract. Toney Penna designed more drivers that won majors in the persimmon era than any other company or person. If you wish to list them , start with Nicklaus, Snead, Nelson, Hogan, Demaret, Watson, Trevino, and go from there.

 

CHARLEY PENNA

[xgolfx]

I met with Nelson Doubleday in Toney Penna's living room when he and Nathaniel Crosby took the company to Nicklaus. They were paying Toney the sum of $1500. Per month to use his name and endorsement of the products. I will leave it at that because the subject makes my Italian olive oil bubble.

 

CHARLEY PENNA

[Juice__25]

Thanks for all your input Charley Penna!

[TimV]

My modern set has the Nicklaus High CT irons with graphite Rifle shafts and I love em.

[EKELLY]

Well first let me say times have changed and marketing of all kinds of goods we buy has changed.

Jack at one time owned part of MacGregor, at the end of Mac Norman owned it. Norman's Cobra clubs were popular.

Hogan was owned at one time by Cosmo a Japanese firm. Not sure they did it any good. Spalding owned it and made nice product but quickly it was owned by Callaway. Now a clothing company owns it and has clubs being made by a firm.

Nicklaus ended up through some dealings with the Toney Penna - Nicklaus company had great clubs designed by Clay Long and also made Golden Bear for mass market. Not much different then today's big guys do box sets. Palmer hooked up with the great First Flight company to form Progroup and they made some great clubs. Management led them and all their brands into the tank.

Clubs with these great players names are good clubs. Just bad company management at the time of transition in golf clubs to cast irons and metal woods.

Players today are paid big money to play equipment. It is easier and safer (no bad rounds) to use a designer or company brand on product. Marketing people would prefer to just use one name. Brand equity.

You can get your "players" club by checking WITB and buying the replica club.

My final thought it is a different world today then 1980-90

A buddy of mine who is a well known caddy, actually heard Norman say, and I quote, "signing with Spalding ruined my career, especially the ball"......And I think it did!.....

[xgolfx]

Prior to the advent of metal woods and the USGA allowing manufacturers and lawyers to dictate equipment, golf was a cottage industry. There are no craftsmen making golf clubs today.Clubs are designed to be mass produced, not custom made to an individual

If you go to a demo day, try to find senior (what used to be called A shafts). Many do not even have left handed clubs. Grip sizes are usually only standard. If you cannot try a set on the golf course, You are foolish to buy it , in my opinion

Tour players sign 14 club deals for millions. Some players take money in exchange for ruining their game. The changes in equipment have little effect on the average player's score. lifestyle, time allocation, and cost all contribute to the decline of the game. Any single digit player takes away from other parts of his life for golf. There are not many guys who can play once or twice a week and score below 80. Even if you have the money, you need to devote time to keep your feel to score.

 

CHARLEY PENNA

[mikah]

I got my better-half a Palmer handbag on one of my many Hong Kong trips a few years ago. Honestly is a fashion brand out there, and they were going ape poo-poo over that stuff.

 

 

 

Nice shag bag. Great Valentines gift with a couple doz ProV s.

 

Too late this year, but my wife will get that next year! great idea, thanks

[oldschoolrocker]

A lot of wisdom in that last post Mr Penna.