Did David Duval just use Montes no turn cast concepts ??

[PreppySlapCut]

Buzzwords. Add them to lag, coil, wrist conditions, etc.

 

I have been guilty of using buzzwords at times (by accident), but attempt to avoid it.

 

It's been my experience that when someone talks about the swing, the fewer buzzwords they use, the more I learn from it.

 

I know I'll get "Prove it" responses, but by the current definition of stable/body release, most of the great players in golf history and currently have bad swings. This is purely an opinion, but I believe creating a stable release on purpose will hurt more people than it helps...and the people it would help are going to arrive there just purely by improving their swing and making the release the result, not the pursuit.

Totally agree. McLean actually had a good picture the other day on Instagram, and it showed Phil's downswing plane and Nicholas Thompson's downswing plane. Two extreme ends of the spectrum, yet obviously both effective. The point was that there's always a range of acceptability. Balance the shallow and steepening elements of the swing, learn how to pivot effectively, and you'll probably be ok.

[MK7Golf21]

How crazy is it that a guy most would think has a "body release", "stable release", "square to the arc delivery", etc is talking about getting rid of the angle as soon as you can...

 

I started playing golf in 2009 and all I heard about was weight forward in the backswing, make your backswing match your shoulder plane or keep it below the shoulders, bent or flat lead wrist throughout the swing and all of a sudden we're back to loading to the rear hip, steeper backswing with the arms in front and "releasing from the top"..... No wonder people are confused.

 

Awesome to hear Duval say something like that because I've heard him before talk about a stable release and releasing with the body.

 

hes been taught by chris o connell starting in like 2012 or so?, pretty sure hes now with Jim Hardy, Im sure this is where he is getting his information to give out

[David C]

And then there was Mike Austin

 

+1

 

Key question is more why wouldn't you release ASAP?!!! Unless you like spinning out and hitting off the back foot...

 

Get your lag from speeding the other elements up, not 'holding' anything.

 

Why would you want to impede energy and speed going into the clubhead?

[KMeloney]

Dang it. I meant to record that and forgot. Now I am really ticked off

 

Shirley somebody will YouTube it for us.

 

I just spoke to Shirley and she said she doesn't have a YouTube account.

 

She also said to thank you for remembering she's somebody and not nobody.

 

Shearling you must be kidding.

[scopek]

How crazy is it that a guy most would think has a "body release", "stable release", "square to the arc delivery", etc is talking about getting rid of the angle as soon as you can...

 

I started playing golf in 2009 and all I heard about was weight forward in the backswing, make your backswing match your shoulder plane or keep it below the shoulders, bent or flat lead wrist throughout the swing and all of a sudden we're back to loading to the rear hip, steeper backswing with the arms in front and "releasing from the top"..... No wonder people are confused.

 

Awesome to hear Duval say something like that because I've heard him before talk about a stable release and releasing with the body.

 

hes been taught by chris o connell starting in like 2012 or so?, pretty sure hes now with Jim Hardy, Im sure this is where he is getting his information to give out

 

Sure, but Chris O"Connell and Jim Hardy work together and it's not surprising that DD would work with both of them. Chris O'Connell and JH are both teaching the same thing.

[David C]

IMO

 

If you are instinctive, and STOP THINKING, don't over-analyse it - don't even analyse it - don't dissect it or even try and figure out what you are doing you can go ahead and release from the top, 'cast' from the top as fast as you like (faster the better) and not actually cast or flip.

 

But if you even *think* about what you are doing for a second, try and second-guess it, you will start processing it; about trying to cast it, and you will figure out how to cast it and you will flip it.

 

Same as with a hundred other pieces of coaching or feels or instruction or tips. It's about what is relevant, primarily, I think.

 

The best sports people I've personally seen coached just 'do' what their coaches tell them, they don't query, they don't seek to understand, they don't fuss. It's even counterproductive to do any of that. And so coaching works, because they know this 'way' works. I.e. Don't 'try', just 'do'. If it is relevant to you.

[MK7Golf21]

How crazy is it that a guy most would think has a "body release", "stable release", "square to the arc delivery", etc is talking about getting rid of the angle as soon as you can...

 

I started playing golf in 2009 and all I heard about was weight forward in the backswing, make your backswing match your shoulder plane or keep it below the shoulders, bent or flat lead wrist throughout the swing and all of a sudden we're back to loading to the rear hip, steeper backswing with the arms in front and "releasing from the top"..... No wonder people are confused.

 

Awesome to hear Duval say something like that because I've heard him before talk about a stable release and releasing with the body.

 

hes been taught by chris o connell starting in like 2012 or so?, pretty sure hes now with Jim Hardy, Im sure this is where he is getting his information to give out

 

Sure, but Chris O"Connell and Jim Hardy work together and it's not surprising that DD would work with both of them. Chris O'Connell and JH are both teaching the same thing.

 

another comment for lefty, back in 09 was the stack n tilt times. I played in jr high and high school golf varsity but then just stopped playing around 2000. Started playing again in 09 and tried stack n tilt stuff basically learning to swing again, I played ok but my swing was kinda a mess trying to follow SnT especially learning on my own doing online lessons. That stuff started fading out in recent years, I think Tiger getting hurt and moving away from it was a big part of the change in whats more popular now. My swing came together getting away from SnT stuff, I think what Im doing now is more like what I did when I was playing varsity golf

[Ripper212]

I agree with those who posted that the show was a waste of time. Duval has been working with Chris O'Connell and supposedly demonstrating the RIT release. As Monte pointed out, this is not a new concept, altho it's the major focus of JN's most recent book. Is anything really new in this game? According to another One Plane instructor I know well, DD was plagued by hooks again in the recent father son tournament. Just more proof that this frustrating game sucks!!

[TB07]

So as a relatively good player he gets the club under plane... shouldn't high handicaps rehearse and fe the opposite of what Duval is rehearsing ?

[Golfbeat]

Casting is going into ulnar deviation and flipping is going into flexion? I guess we want to flip but not to cast (at least not deliberately).

[airjammer]

So as a relatively good player he gets the club under plane... shouldn't high handicaps rehearse and fe the opposite of what Duval is rehearsing ?

 

Yes, steep high handicaps should practice the reverse or shallowing. The issue seems to be there are both shallowing phases and steepening phases of the golf swing. If you tell someone steep to shallow from the top they eventually will do that and they will hit better for a period of time. Then before you know it they are too shallow and the club is stuck behind them.

 

With the new technology we have learned you basically pull the club underplane till your left arm is about chest high then you throw the club back in front of you. So, in the backswing you need to be on a steeper plane so you can shallow to under plane to steepen to on plane. I'm not a instructor so that is how I understand it..please correct me I'm wrong.

 

Brooke Hendeson seems to demonstrate this

 

 

Hogan seemed to have a similar move.

[Stuart_G]

Casting is going into ulnar deviation and flipping is going into flexion? I guess we want to flip but not to cast (at least not deliberately).

 

I don't think it's that simple. Almost all swings will have a combination of all 3 types of wrist motion - (radial/ulner deviation, flexion/extension, pronation/supination). So it's likely the distinction is more about how the three are sequenced in the downswing than it is about anything else. e.g. I don't know if it's right but when I think of flipping, I think of it as having more late and aggressive forearm rotation (pronation/supination) to attempt to square the face after becoming stuck.

[Golfbeat]

Casting is going into ulnar deviation and flipping is going into flexion? I guess we want to flip but not to cast (at least not deliberately).

 

I don't think it's that simple. Almost all swings will have a combination of all 3 types of wrist motion - (radial/ulner deviation, flexion/extension, pronation/supination). So it's likely the distinction is more about how the three are sequenced in the downswing than it is about anything else. e.g. I don't know if it's right but when I think of flipping, I think of it as having more late and aggressive forearm rotation (pronation/supination) to attempt to square the face after becoming stuck.

 

I agree that they all happen to some extend but the question is what you actively should try to do. In Jim Hardy's RIT release you only want to actively flex your right wrist into extension (throw) with no forearm roll and no active ulnar deviation (casting).

[Stuart_G]

Casting is going into ulnar deviation and flipping is going into flexion? I guess we want to flip but not to cast (at least not deliberately).

 

I don't think it's that simple. Almost all swings will have a combination of all 3 types of wrist motion - (radial/ulner deviation, flexion/extension, pronation/supination). So it's likely the distinction is more about how the three are sequenced in the downswing than it is about anything else. e.g. I don't know if it's right but when I think of flipping, I think of it as having more late and aggressive forearm rotation (pronation/supination) to attempt to square the face after becoming stuck.

 

I agree that they all happen to some extend but the question is what you actively should try to do. In Jim Hardy's RIT release you only want to actively flex your right wrist into extension (throw) with no forearm roll and no active ulnar deviation (casting).

 

Well I certainly don't proclaim to know that particular context, but in most contexts where I see the terms "cast" and "flip" used in instruction, the distinction seems (to me) to be one of timing, not motion. 'cast' is early (or a feel of earlier in the context of Monte's video), 'flip' is late.

 

Does Hardy use any of those terms: "flip", "cast", or even "throw"?

 

That's the biggest problem with most of these 'slang' type terms used in instruction. Their use is rarely consistent. In some cases, particularly with respect to feel, they could mean the same thing or something completely different depending on the individual or the instructor.

[Golfbeat]

Casting is going into ulnar deviation and flipping is going into flexion? I guess we want to flip but not to cast (at least not deliberately).

 

I don't think it's that simple. Almost all swings will have a combination of all 3 types of wrist motion - (radial/ulner deviation, flexion/extension, pronation/supination). So it's likely the distinction is more about how the three are sequenced in the downswing than it is about anything else. e.g. I don't know if it's right but when I think of flipping, I think of it as having more late and aggressive forearm rotation (pronation/supination) to attempt to square the face after becoming stuck.

 

I agree that they all happen to some extend but the question is what you actively should try to do. In Jim Hardy's RIT release you only want to actively flex your right wrist into extension (throw) with no forearm roll and no active ulnar deviation (casting).

 

Well I certainly don't proclaim to know that particular context, but in most contexts where I see the terms "cast" and "flip" used in instruction, the distinction seems (to me) to be one of timing, not motion. 'cast' is early (or a feel of earlier in the context of Monte's video), 'flip' is late.

 

Does Hardy use any of those terms: "flip", "cast", or even "throw"?

 

That's the biggest problem with most of these 'slang' type terms used in instruction. Their use is rarely consistent. In some cases, particularly with respect to feel, they could mean the same thing or something completely different depending on the individual or the instructor.

 

I agree that using the correct anatomical movements is the most helpful. I thought casting was derived from fishing. In that sense people would usually go from radial deviation into ulnar deviation when throwing the fishing pole.

[Stuart_G]

I agree that using the correct anatomical movements is the most helpful. I thought casting was derived from fishing. In that sense people would usually go from radial deviation into ulnar deviation when throwing the fishing pole.

 

That's possible or it could be because the motion happens when the hands are still very high (where they would be when casting a fishing rod). Or both.

[Golfbeat]

I agree that using the correct anatomical movements is the most helpful. I thought casting was derived from fishing. In that sense people would usually go from radial deviation into ulnar deviation when throwing the fishing pole.

 

That's possible or it could be because the motion happens when the hands are still very high (where they would be when casting a fishing rod). Or both.

 

He explains it well.

 

[Hilts1969]

I agree that using the correct anatomical movements is the most helpful. I thought casting was derived from fishing. In that sense people would usually go from radial deviation into ulnar deviation when throwing the fishing pole.

 

That's possible or it could be because the motion happens when the hands are still very high (where they would be when casting a fishing rod). Or both.

 

He explains it well.

 

 

I'm feeling a hook with that move

[Golfbeat]

I agree that using the correct anatomical movements is the most helpful. I thought casting was derived from fishing. In that sense people would usually go from radial deviation into ulnar deviation when throwing the fishing pole.

 

That's possible or it could be because the motion happens when the hands are still very high (where they would be when casting a fishing rod). Or both.

 

He explains it well.

 

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I'm feeling a hook with that move

 

You might feel that you will hook it but you won't if well executed. The club face should be square to the path if no forearm roll over.

[Pinsplitter59]

I think you are quite correct Golfbeat.

i like this thread because it begs (answers?) the most fundamental question in the golf swing.

How do you move the club head?

For example going back to Sam Snead,

its very instructive to just look at his release and simply ask, How does he do that?

And all this talk and people struggling to "get the club in front of you" is easily solved surely if they go back to Abe Mitchell and Harry Vardon, a self-taught mate does that and hits the ball VERY far (he is quite tall). lots and lots of right arm folding means lots and lots of release speed. But of course if you do that you will be sent to the naughty corner.

 

[Hilts1969]

I agree that using the correct anatomical movements is the most helpful. I thought casting was derived from fishing. In that sense people would usually go from radial deviation into ulnar deviation when throwing the fishing pole.

 

That's possible or it could be because the motion happens when the hands are still very high (where they would be when casting a fishing rod). Or both.

 

He explains it well.

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

I'm feeling a hook with that move

 

You might feel that you will hook it but you won't if well executed. The club face should be square to the path if no forearm roll over.

 

I believe mr zander is a one planer, you can see from the video how relatively low his hands are when he does that move which is very similar to the malaska move i.e. Club head out. At some point in the swing the club head goes out it has to. But he says do that move at the start of the downswing, if you did that as a two planer with high hands hello closed clubface. You would need to drop your hands first. There is no golf swing that doesn't rely on timing or as you called it well executed.

[Golfbeat]

I agree that this will not work for a two-plane swing.

[Golfbeat]

The Duval video.

 

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/gca-david-duval-driver-downswing-tips/

[Hilts1969]

The Duval video.

 

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/gca-david-duval-driver-downswing-tips/

 

Are we just talking of feeling like you release your angles earlier here? At the moment I keep my left heel raised as long as possible and straighten my right arm down(feel)as quickly as possible. It's been working very well with the irons through to the 3 wood. I do have a bit of work to do with the driver to develop a constant fade. At the range tomorrow so will give it a whirl to see how it affects the flight.

[Golfbeat]

So there you have it. Nicklaus, Monte, Duval say it (and probably the majority of top players do it). Release that right wrist straight from the top. Now just coordinate that with your body. This is where it gets complicated. Or not?

[Hilts1969]

So there you have it. Nicklaus, Monte, Duval say it (and probably the majority of top players do it). Release that right wrist straight from the top. Now just coordinate that with your body. This is where it gets complicated. Or not?

 

I personally think the complication is not throwing everything along with it especially the head and left shoulder, is this what pro golfers mean by not rushing your transition? They certainly don't do anything slowly but you would think if they meant holding back the torso it would be widely taught as a must do move

[b_f_c_99]

The move Duval talks about in the video is exactly what I discovered for myself 15+ years ago. But I never heard anyone else talk about so I would tend to wander away from that feeling thinking it was just some sort of band aid. But whenever I struggle I would go back to it. It's nice to see that I wasn't out of my mind! I would describe ti to playing friends as 'dumping the club head'. The would all look at me like "you can't do that!"

[CSagan]

Slicefixer has discussed that feeling to me years back. He called more of swinging the loft around you or hitting the ball with the loft. Good feeling sometimes.

[RBImGuy]

And then there was Mike Austin

 

Well he said things that wasn't accurate also, 90% of what he talked about isnt really right.

 

 

 

+1

 

Key question is more why wouldn't you release ASAP?!!! Unless you like spinning out and hitting off the back foot...

 

Get your lag from speeding the other elements up, not 'holding' anything.

 

Why would you want to impede energy and speed going into the clubhead?

 

People understand concepts wrong most of the time anyhow, that is why.

 

I think you are quite correct Golfbeat.

i like this thread because it begs (answers?) the most fundamental question in the golf swing.

How do you move the club head?

For example going back to Sam Snead,

its very instructive to just look at his release and simply ask, How does he do that?

And all this talk and people struggling to "get the club in front of you" is easily solved surely if they go back to Abe Mitchell and Harry Vardon, a self-taught mate does that and hits the ball VERY far (he is quite tall). lots and lots of right arm folding means lots and lots of release speed. But of course if you do that you will be sent to the naughty corner.

 

 

Not sure why you post a Over the top swing like Sam Snead had?

 

Anyhow none here on this forum can explain the concept "get the club in front of you". while they may know what its about, explaining so it make sense and what to do, wont work. Obviously.

The same is true with Mike Austins students and trainers as I shown them I can teach a real Mike Austin mechanic and they can not.

[MK7Golf21]

So there you have it. Nicklaus, Monte, Duval say it (and probably the majority of top players do it). Release that right wrist straight from the top. Now just coordinate that with your body. This is where it gets complicated. Or not?

 

Well let's be a little more clear here, duval said Chris taught him this a few years ago, long after he was good. This is a release that's been taught in the one plane swing by Jim Chris etc for a long time since it first was introduced. Not saying it's not a good thing just saying duval didn't say he was using this during his prime, learned it from Chris