Erin Hills too Easy?

[Ashley Schaeffer]

There is no doubt in my mind that famed and fabled Riviera Country Club would be much more highly sought after by the USGA and PGA of America were it not for its extremely troublesome logistical problems.

 

I get the problems of shuttling everyone to the Palisades for Riviera, but what of the same issues for LACC in 2023? The members won't allow the south course to become a parking lot, right? Have you heard anything about how that is going to work?

[stickner]

 

When you attack someone rather than their position, or rather than attempt to support your own position, that's ad hominem.

 

Let's go back to your original post. It was:

 

"I think the governing bodies of all professional sports have a responsibility to the great players of the past to protect the sanctity of their records. Not to ensure that they're never broken, only to ensure that, if they're broken, it is by a greater effort on the part of the individual athlete and not by a substantial alteration of the field of play"

 

My point is that there has been substantial alteration to field of play. Aside from length, the course itself is massively altered even from 25-30 years ago. Greens are substantially faster. fairways are substantially shorter and faster. 30 years ago the FASTER greens stimped between 8 and 10 for TOUR events. Today, there are weeks where fast fairways are stimping at what slower greens used to be.

 

Back then, the grass in fairways was longer. Balata balls had much higher spin off all clubs including the driver. While this meant more curvature, the ball didn't fly as far, and when it did hit the fairway, it was doing so with more spin on grass that was longer. This made it more likely to "hold" the fairway. The modern ball of today spins less and lands on shorter grass. This makes it tougher to "hold" the fairway.

 

The height of grass is remarkably different than it was 30+ years ago. That alone is a "substantial alteration of the field of play". When you factor on top of that the changes in equipment and the length at which they stretch courses out, the game of today is SUBSTANTIALLY different than the game of 30+ years ago.

 

Please feel free to come back with some witty retort and classification of these facts.

 

Your ignorance is palpable.

[PGArox]

There is no doubt in my mind that famed and fabled Riviera Country Club would be much more highly sought after by the USGA and PGA of America were it not for its extremely troublesome logistical problems.

 

I get the problems of shuttling everyone to the Palisades for Riviera, but what of the same issues for LACC in 2023? The members won't allow the south course to become a parking lot, right? Have you heard anything about how that is going to work?

 

I have heard that the South Course will in fact undergo a massive redesign/restoration which will allow it to be temporarily used for logistical needs for that championship.

 

Santa Monica Blvd. would serve as the main transportation artery, and there is currently a lot of construction in and around Century City and Beverly Hills which will bring more hotel rooms and other amenities.

 

Furthermore, Los Angeles' subway is being extended westward toward Century City (a stop would drop people just two blocks south of LACC) with an original completion date set for 2026. However, voters here recently approved increased taxes which are intended, among other things, to have the entire subway extension (all the way to Westwood) completed by 2024, which was when we thought we might host another Olympic Games.

 

It is possible that the extension to Century City will be completed in time for the 2023 U.S. Open, but the clock is definitely ticking.

[SadTrombone]

When you attack someone rather than their position, or rather than attempt to support your own position, that's ad hominem.

 

Let's go back to your original post. It was:

 

"I think the governing bodies of all professional sports have a responsibility to the great players of the past to protect the sanctity of their records. Not to ensure that they're never broken, only to ensure that, if they're broken, it is by a greater effort on the part of the individual athlete and not by a substantial alteration of the field of play"

 

My point is that there has been substantial alteration to field of play. Aside from length, the course itself is massively altered even from 25-30 years ago. Greens are substantially faster. fairways are substantially shorter and faster. 30 years ago the FASTER greens stimped between 8 and 10 for TOUR events. Today, there are weeks where fast fairways are stimping at what slower greens used to be.

 

Back then, the grass in fairways was longer. Balata balls had much higher spin off all clubs including the driver. While this meant more curvature, the ball didn't fly as far, and when it did hit the fairway, it was doing so with more spin on grass that was longer. This made it more likely to "hold" the fairway. The modern ball of today spins less and lands on shorter grass. This makes it tougher to "hold" the fairway.

 

The height of grass is remarkably different than it was 30+ years ago. That alone is a "substantial alteration of the field of play". When you factor on top of that the changes in equipment and the length at which they stretch courses out, the game of today is SUBSTANTIALLY different than the game of 30+ years ago.

 

Please feel free to come back with some witty retort and classification of these facts.

 

Your ignorance is palpable.

 

That wasn't my post.

 

...and you're still going ad hominem.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

There is no doubt in my mind that famed and fabled Riviera Country Club would be much more highly sought after by the USGA and PGA of America were it not for its extremely troublesome logistical problems.

 

I get the problems of shuttling everyone to the Palisades for Riviera, but what of the same issues for LACC in 2023? The members won't allow the south course to become a parking lot, right? Have you heard anything about how that is going to work?

 

I have heard that the South Course will in fact undergo a massive redesign/restoration which will allow it to be temporarily used for logistical needs for that championship.

 

Santa Monica Blvd. would serve as the main transportation artery, and there is currently a lot of construction in and around Century City and Beverly Hills which will bring more hotel rooms and other amenities.

 

Furthermore, Los Angeles' subway is being extended westward toward Century City (a stop would drop people just two blocks south of LACC) with an original completion date set for 2026. However, voters here recently approved increased taxes which are intended, among other things, to have the entire subway extension (all the way to Westwood) completed by 2024, which was when we thought we might host another Olympic Games.

 

It is possible that the extension to Century City will be completed in time for the 2023 U.S. Open, but the clock is definitely ticking.

 

Cool. Thanks for the info!

[Darth Putter]

There is no doubt in my mind that famed and fabled Riviera Country Club would be much more highly sought after by the USGA and PGA of America were it not for its extremely troublesome logistical problems.

 

I get the problems of shuttling everyone to the Palisades for Riviera, but what of the same issues for LACC in 2023? The members won't allow the south course to become a parking lot, right? Have you heard anything about how that is going to work?

 

I have heard that the South Course will in fact undergo a massive redesign/restoration which will allow it to be temporarily used for logistical needs for that championship.

 

Santa Monica Blvd. would serve as the main transportation artery, and there is currently a lot of construction in and around Century City and Beverly Hills which will bring more hotel rooms and other amenities.

 

Furthermore, Los Angeles' subway is being extended westward toward Century City (a stop would drop people just two blocks south of LACC) with an original completion date set for 2026. However, voters here recently approved increased taxes which are intended, among other things, to have the entire subway extension (all the way to Westwood) completed by 2024, which was when we thought we might host another Olympic Games.

 

It is possible that the extension to Century City will be completed in time for the 2023 U.S. Open, but the clock is definitely ticking.

 

I could have sworn I read Riviera was the course for Olympic golf if it comes to Los Angeles in 2024 or 2028.

[OBbogey5]

These guys don't seem to have a problem getting up and down from off the green. Where are the "death" places where you simply cannot miss??

 

I like the idea of new courses for the US Open, but why do they all have to look like they're in Ireland or the U.K.? Chambers Bay was fun because the balls rolled so much that it was a blast to see where the thing ended up. But this course just ain't doing it for me. It's boring.

 

Create some new courses that fit the bill for a US Open - narrow, thick rough, hard greens.

 

Hmmm never heard this take...

 

Did I double post? What's your point, BUB?!

 

The same point was ad nauseum on the thread the last 4 days. That's all

 

Fair enough. I haven't been on the Tour section in a while...too busy window shopping the F/S threads! But the US Open has me thinking silly things, like it does every year haha.

[braincramp52]

I'm not a Mike Davis fan but the USGA caught a bit of bad luck with all the rain they had. Had it not rained so much the fairways and greens would have been nasty firm and fast and it would been a much different course. You can't control mother nature.

 

That's not a great excuse. Bethpage in 2002 and 2009 had a ton of rain. Winning scores were -3 and -4. The extremely wide fairways at Erin Hills played a huge factor along with the weather.

 

That's my point. Had the USGA narrowed the fairways and not gotten 3-4 days of rain, everyone would be crying that the course was unfair the way the fairways sloped. They wouldn't have been able to keep a ball in the short stuff with a perfect drive on some of those holes.

[PGArox]

There is no doubt in my mind that famed and fabled Riviera Country Club would be much more highly sought after by the USGA and PGA of America were it not for its extremely troublesome logistical problems.

 

I get the problems of shuttling everyone to the Palisades for Riviera, but what of the same issues for LACC in 2023? The members won't allow the south course to become a parking lot, right? Have you heard anything about how that is going to work?

 

I have heard that the South Course will in fact undergo a massive redesign/restoration which will allow it to be temporarily used for logistical needs for that championship.

 

Santa Monica Blvd. would serve as the main transportation artery, and there is currently a lot of construction in and around Century City and Beverly Hills which will bring more hotel rooms and other amenities.

 

Furthermore, Los Angeles' subway is being extended westward toward Century City (a stop would drop people just two blocks south of LACC) with an original completion date set for 2026. However, voters here recently approved increased taxes which are intended, among other things, to have the entire subway extension (all the way to Westwood) completed by 2024, which was when we thought we might host another Olympic Games.

 

It is possible that the extension to Century City will be completed in time for the 2023 U.S. Open, but the clock is definitely ticking.

 

I could have sworn I read Riviera was the course for Olympic golf if it comes to Los Angeles in 2024 or 2028.

 

Golf in the Olympics? How lame is that? :)

[sekrah]

I'm not a Mike Davis fan but the USGA caught a bit of bad luck with all the rain they had. Had it not rained so much the fairways and greens would have been nasty firm and fast and it would been a much different course. You can't control mother nature.

 

That's not a great excuse. Bethpage in 2002 and 2009 had a ton of rain. Winning scores were -3 and -4. The extremely wide fairways at Erin Hills played a huge factor along with the weather.

 

That's my point. Had the USGA narrowed the fairways and not gotten 3-4 days of rain, everyone would be crying that the course was unfair the way the fairways sloped. They wouldn't have been able to keep a ball in the short stuff with a perfect drive on some of those holes.

 

A very tiny percentage of people ever whine that the course is unfair. Vast majority of people, including the fringe fan that doesn't watch every tourney unless there's something interesting about it LOVE seeing these guys challenged and tortured.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

I'm not a Mike Davis fan but the USGA caught a bit of bad luck with all the rain they had. Had it not rained so much the fairways and greens would have been nasty firm and fast and it would been a much different course. You can't control mother nature.

 

That's not a great excuse. Bethpage in 2002 and 2009 had a ton of rain. Winning scores were -3 and -4. The extremely wide fairways at Erin Hills played a huge factor along with the weather.

 

That's my point. Had the USGA narrowed the fairways and not gotten 3-4 days of rain, everyone would be crying that the course was unfair the way the fairways sloped. They wouldn't have been able to keep a ball in the short stuff with a perfect drive on some of those holes.

 

A very tiny percentage of people ever whine that the course is unfair. Vast majority of people, including the fringe fan that doesn't watch every tourney unless there's something interesting about it LOVE seeing these guys challenged and tortured.

 

Do you have a link to a survey? IDK either way, just curious.

[Roadking2003]

most likely 14 under will win the US Open. I think it's time for a US Open venue that actually proves difficult. I'm not sure why setting up an Open for Par being a winning is such a bad thing?

 

Why do you care what the score is in relation to par? Should they change the short par four to a par three? That would bring the winning score closer to par.

[braincramp52]

I'm not a Mike Davis fan but the USGA caught a bit of bad luck with all the rain they had. Had it not rained so much the fairways and greens would have been nasty firm and fast and it would been a much different course. You can't control mother nature.

 

That's not a great excuse. Bethpage in 2002 and 2009 had a ton of rain. Winning scores were -3 and -4. The extremely wide fairways at Erin Hills played a huge factor along with the weather.

 

That's my point. Had the USGA narrowed the fairways and not gotten 3-4 days of rain, everyone would be crying that the course was unfair the way the fairways sloped. They wouldn't have been able to keep a ball in the short stuff with a perfect drive on some of those holes.

 

A very tiny percentage of people ever whine that the course is unfair. Vast majority of people, including the fringe fan that doesn't watch every tourney unless there's something interesting about it LOVE seeing these guys challenged and tortured.

 

Evidently you live in a much different world than I do then. I like to see great golf. If I want to watch a bunch of dudes hacking around I'll video the group I play with.

[sekrah]

I'm not a Mike Davis fan but the USGA caught a bit of bad luck with all the rain they had. Had it not rained so much the fairways and greens would have been nasty firm and fast and it would been a much different course. You can't control mother nature.

 

That's not a great excuse. Bethpage in 2002 and 2009 had a ton of rain. Winning scores were -3 and -4. The extremely wide fairways at Erin Hills played a huge factor along with the weather.

 

That's my point. Had the USGA narrowed the fairways and not gotten 3-4 days of rain, everyone would be crying that the course was unfair the way the fairways sloped. They wouldn't have been able to keep a ball in the short stuff with a perfect drive on some of those holes.

 

A very tiny percentage of people ever whine that the course is unfair. Vast majority of people, including the fringe fan that doesn't watch every tourney unless there's something interesting about it LOVE seeing these guys challenged and tortured.

 

Evidently you live in a much different world than I do then. I like to see great golf. If I want to watch a bunch of dudes hacking around I'll video the group I play with.

 

 

Well apparently you are in your own little universe. What were the tv ratings for this toilet bowl track again? Oh that's what I thought. No one was watching.

[Jasonic]

Erin Hills was not US Open worthy, it's a nice course and overall I enjoyed the tournament but it didn't feel like a US Open. Fairways needs to be narrowed, especially in key landing areas. The fairways were giving up way too much roll, there's no point of having an 8000 yard course if the course hands the longest golfers an extra 50 yards on every tee shot and there's no penalty for bombing the ball.

 

The greens aren't as well protected as other US Open courses, there are no water hazards, the bunkers were player friendly, minimal OB and while the fescue was penal it wasn't nearly as tough to get out of as they hyped it up to be in the pre-tournament discussions. The weather made the greens receptive to approach shots and while the pin placements were challenging the lower stimp of the greens took made putting easier than expected.

 

If they had wind like yesterday morning all tournament and the course was dry I think the scores would have been much higher but the weather took most of the teeth out of the course and that's why it didn't play like a US Open course.

a) you don't need water to make a course hard

b) narrowing the fairways in this case would be hard due to the undulations/slopes in the fairways.

c) bunkers aren't hard? dillusional.

 

the ONLY reason this wasn't a tough course this week was wind. look at the scores on sunday -- a course that's wet (receptive greens) with no wind is as get-able as it comes, regardless of length. only time wet REALLY comes into play is when the ball plugs in the fairway -- which didn't happen here.

 

you cannot design a US Open course subject to the elements to protect score...that's the other OPEN!!! US Opens are historically beefy with our without rain, nuclear snow etc. Winged Foot much?

 

 

Mind boggling that there's people who think weather is the only weapon out there to make courses tough. Erin Hills is a baby course.

 

Please go play it and report back your score. It would probably be the only thing interesting coming from your keyboard.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

 

Well apparently you are in your own little universe. What were the tv ratings for this toilet bowl track again? Oh that's what I thought. No one was watching.

 

So, do you have a link to a poll/survey saying that

 

"A very tiny percentage of people ever whine that the course is unfair. Vast majority of people, including the fringe fan that doesn't watch every tourney unless there's something interesting about it LOVE seeing these guys challenged and tortured."

 

Or not?

[sekrah]

Erin Hills was not US Open worthy, it's a nice course and overall I enjoyed the tournament but it didn't feel like a US Open. Fairways needs to be narrowed, especially in key landing areas. The fairways were giving up way too much roll, there's no point of having an 8000 yard course if the course hands the longest golfers an extra 50 yards on every tee shot and there's no penalty for bombing the ball.

 

The greens aren't as well protected as other US Open courses, there are no water hazards, the bunkers were player friendly, minimal OB and while the fescue was penal it wasn't nearly as tough to get out of as they hyped it up to be in the pre-tournament discussions. The weather made the greens receptive to approach shots and while the pin placements were challenging the lower stimp of the greens took made putting easier than expected.

 

If they had wind like yesterday morning all tournament and the course was dry I think the scores would have been much higher but the weather took most of the teeth out of the course and that's why it didn't play like a US Open course.

a) you don't need water to make a course hard

b) narrowing the fairways in this case would be hard due to the undulations/slopes in the fairways.

c) bunkers aren't hard? dillusional.

 

the ONLY reason this wasn't a tough course this week was wind. look at the scores on sunday -- a course that's wet (receptive greens) with no wind is as get-able as it comes, regardless of length. only time wet REALLY comes into play is when the ball plugs in the fairway -- which didn't happen here.

 

you cannot design a US Open course subject to the elements to protect score...that's the other OPEN!!! US Opens are historically beefy with our without rain, nuclear snow etc. Winged Foot much?

 

 

Mind boggling that there's people who think weather is the only weapon out there to make courses tough. Erin Hills is a baby course.

 

Please go play it and report back your score. It would probably be the only thing interesting coming from your keyboard.

 

I'd love to play this DUMP. Wider fairways than any course within 50 miles of me. Bring it on.

[KyGolf]

Course sent 7 of the top 10 home Friday evening, and kept the other 3 from the top of the leaderboard. But it's too easy.

[gioguy21]

I'd love to play this DUMP. Wider fairways than any course within 50 miles of me. Bring it on.

go back to ur parents basement. Im sure youre mom Will call u shortly...ur hot pockets should be done soon.

[vwgolfer]

All you losers complaining about Erin Hills being too easy.......if it was Jason and Rory and Dustin and Phil and Jordan on Sunday tied at -18 with 4 holes to play you would have thought it was the greatest UsOpen Ever.

 

All you losers complaining it was boring...it's golf what do you expect when the above did not happen.

 

All you losers complaining about Joe Buck....lol who cares turn down the sound!

 

All you losers complaining about Fox....yea right....like no pro tracer is better?

 

All you losers complaining about complaining..... get a life!

[braincramp52]

(sekrah)

 

Well apparently you are in your own little universe. What were the tv ratings for this toilet bowl track again? Oh that's what I thought. No one was watching.

 

Fathers day dude! DVR is your friend. I have a question for you sekrah. Do you consider Congressional a dog track too? Cause Rory won that Open at ........ -16.

[Darth Putter]

I'm not a Mike Davis fan but the USGA caught a bit of bad luck with all the rain they had. Had it not rained so much the fairways and greens would have been nasty firm and fast and it would been a much different course. You can't control mother nature.

 

That's not a great excuse. Bethpage in 2002 and 2009 had a ton of rain. Winning scores were -3 and -4. The extremely wide fairways at Erin Hills played a huge factor along with the weather.

 

That's my point. Had the USGA narrowed the fairways and not gotten 3-4 days of rain, everyone would be crying that the course was unfair the way the fairways sloped. They wouldn't have been able to keep a ball in the short stuff with a perfect drive on some of those holes.

 

One Olympic Club in the rotation is enough.

[Jasonic]

I'm not a Mike Davis fan but the USGA caught a bit of bad luck with all the rain they had. Had it not rained so much the fairways and greens would have been nasty firm and fast and it would been a much different course. You can't control mother nature.

 

That's not a great excuse. Bethpage in 2002 and 2009 had a ton of rain. Winning scores were -3 and -4. The extremely wide fairways at Erin Hills played a huge factor along with the weather.

 

That's my point. Had the USGA narrowed the fairways and not gotten 3-4 days of rain, everyone would be crying that the course was unfair the way the fairways sloped. They wouldn't have been able to keep a ball in the short stuff with a perfect drive on some of those holes.

 

A very tiny percentage of people ever whine that the course is unfair. Vast majority of people, including the fringe fan that doesn't watch every tourney unless there's something interesting about it LOVE seeing these guys challenged and tortured.

 

Do you have a link to a survey? IDK either way, just curious.

 

Of course not lol

[Ashley Schaeffer]

I'd love to play this DUMP. Wider fairways than any course within 50 miles of me. Bring it on.

 

So, do you have a link to a poll/survey saying that

 

"A very tiny percentage of people ever whine that the course is unfair. Vast majority of people, including the fringe fan that doesn't watch every tourney unless there's something interesting about it LOVE seeing these guys challenged and tortured."

 

Or not?

[sekrah]

I'd love to play this DUMP. Wider fairways than any course within 50 miles of me. Bring it on.

 

So, do you have a link to a poll/survey saying that

 

"A very tiny percentage of people ever whine that the course is unfair. Vast majority of people, including the fringe fan that doesn't watch every tourney unless there's something interesting about it LOVE seeing these guys challenged and tortured."

 

Or not?

 

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1503538-us-open-ratings-second-worst-ever/

 

Right here.

[Jasonic]

Erin Hills was not US Open worthy, it's a nice course and overall I enjoyed the tournament but it didn't feel like a US Open. Fairways needs to be narrowed, especially in key landing areas. The fairways were giving up way too much roll, there's no point of having an 8000 yard course if the course hands the longest golfers an extra 50 yards on every tee shot and there's no penalty for bombing the ball.

 

The greens aren't as well protected as other US Open courses, there are no water hazards, the bunkers were player friendly, minimal OB and while the fescue was penal it wasn't nearly as tough to get out of as they hyped it up to be in the pre-tournament discussions. The weather made the greens receptive to approach shots and while the pin placements were challenging the lower stimp of the greens took made putting easier than expected.

 

If they had wind like yesterday morning all tournament and the course was dry I think the scores would have been much higher but the weather took most of the teeth out of the course and that's why it didn't play like a US Open course.

a) you don't need water to make a course hard

b) narrowing the fairways in this case would be hard due to the undulations/slopes in the fairways.

c) bunkers aren't hard? dillusional.

 

the ONLY reason this wasn't a tough course this week was wind. look at the scores on sunday -- a course that's wet (receptive greens) with no wind is as get-able as it comes, regardless of length. only time wet REALLY comes into play is when the ball plugs in the fairway -- which didn't happen here.

 

you cannot design a US Open course subject to the elements to protect score...that's the other OPEN!!! US Opens are historically beefy with our without rain, nuclear snow etc. Winged Foot much?

 

 

Mind boggling that there's people who think weather is the only weapon out there to make courses tough. Erin Hills is a baby course.

 

Please go play it and report back your score. It would probably be the only thing interesting coming from your keyboard.

 

I'd love to play this DUMP. Wider fairways than any course within 50 miles of me. Bring it on.

 

Nobody's stopping you. Hopefully it will be 5 hours you won't be posting anything

[sekrah]

Nobody's stopping you. Hopefully it will be 5 hours you won't be posting anything

 

 

There's 1000 munis between me and Erin Hills that are cheaper and NICER. I'll pass on that landfill.

[Shilgy]

I'd love to play this DUMP. Wider fairways than any course within 50 miles of me. Bring it on.

 

So, do you have a link to a poll/survey saying that

 

"A very tiny percentage of people ever whine that the course is unfair. Vast majority of people, including the fringe fan that doesn't watch every tourney unless there's something interesting about it LOVE seeing these guys challenged and tortured."

 

Or not?

 

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1503538-us-open-ratings-second-worst-ever/

 

Right here.

The ratings were down yes. Has nothing to do with odd people needing torture and mayhem on the golf course. The Masters had their lowest ratings in 13 years.

 

Tell us why.....

[youdamantiger]

I think the governing bodies of all professional sports have a responsibility to the great players of the past to protect the sanctity of their records. Not to ensure that they're never broken, only to ensure that, if they're broken, it is by a greater effort on the part of the individual athlete and not by a substantial alteration of the field of play.

 

I can only assume then you will be lobbying strongly for re-instating hickory shafts and gutta percha balls as the only equipment options a player has? If not, why not?

 

For the same reason that NASCAR has restrictor plates to keep the cars from going too fast but they don't insist that all the drivers race Model Ts. It's not all or nothing. There can be a middle ground.

[new2g0lf]

I think the governing bodies of all professional sports have a responsibility to the great players of the past to protect the sanctity of their records. Not to ensure that they're never broken, only to ensure that, if they're broken, it is by a greater effort on the part of the individual athlete and not by a substantial alteration of the field of play.

 

I can only assume then you will be lobbying strongly for re-instating hickory shafts and gutta percha balls as the only equipment options a player has? If not, why not?

 

For the same reason that NASCAR has restrictor plates to keep the cars from going too fast but they don't insist that all the drivers race Model Ts. It's not all or nothing. There can be a middle ground.

NASCAR did it for safety because technology was allowing the cars to go to fast for the tracks they raced on.

 

Golf is at a cross roads, they either need to accept the restrictions they've placed on equipment and live with the results or admit they allowed equipment to get out of control and dial some of it back, most likely the ball.

 

Career records are likely safer today than 20 years ago because equipment has normalized golfers to some level. I can't imagine someone winning more tournaments than Tiger or Snead or more Majors than Jack or even Tiger.

 

The records that are at risk are lowest score in a round and lowest score for a tournament. Are those records that sacred that it's worth stepping back in time to protect? I'd say no but I guess some purists believe they are.