Erin Hills too Easy?

Shilgy · June 21, 2017

Driving accuracy today is less than it was in the past

I looked at driving accuracy in 1980, 1981 and 1982 (oldest years for stats on PGATOUR.com).

I compared that to 2017, 2016, 2015.

80-81-82: 63.2% fairways hit (359,748 fairways hit out of 568,973 possible fairways)

15-16-17: 60.9% fairways hit (335,075 fairways hit out of 549,907 possible fairways)

Hmmm...I would have never guessed that. Of course, it's not completely apples to apples since there are more variables to consider such as the width of the fairways now vs then, how often the players hit driver vs 3 wood but still, I didn't expect that result.

Did you expect it to be worse today or higher?

stickner · June 21, 2017

Driving accuracy today is less than it was in the past

I looked at driving accuracy in 1980, 1981 and 1982 (oldest years for stats on PGATOUR.com).

I compared that to 2017, 2016, 2015.

80-81-82: 63.2% fairways hit (359,748 fairways hit out of 568,973 possible fairways)

15-16-17: 60.9% fairways hit (335,075 fairways hit out of 549,907 possible fairways)

Hmmm...I would have never guessed that. Of course, it's not completely apples to apples since there are more variables to consider such as the width of the fairways now vs then, how often the players hit driver vs 3 wood but still, I didn't expect that result.

I would be surprised if the overall average width of fairways has changed, but I have nothing to base that on.

It's not a completely fair comparison. Back then, the median driving distance was roughly 255. Today the median driving distance is roughly 290.

On a 28 yard wide fairway for a 255 yard drive you can be offline +/- 3.15 degrees and still be in the fairway.

On a 28 yard wide fairway for a 290 yard drive you can be offline +/- 2.76 degrees and still be in the fairway (the further you hit it the harder it is to stay in the fairway).

All things being equal, you would expect about a 12.4% reduction in accuracy when going from 255 yard median drive to 290.

This means our 63.2% accuracy from 80-82 "should" drop to 55.4%, but it only dropped to 60.9%.

Notes:

Fairways today have shorter grass and run quicker making it even more difficult to stay in the fairway
Balls today don't spin as much making it tougher to "hold" the fairway
Equipment today is much more forgiving making it easier to keep balls more online
Golfers today are far superior athletically
Golfers today have tremendous technology available to them to assist with their swings as well as their scoring

sekrah · June 21, 2017

Where is the line where a course is now considered "too" easy for the us open?

Or is it like justice Potter and obscenity: can't describe it, but know it when I see it?

I would be fine with the characterization of the course as "easier" than some other us open courses...but I've no idea what "too easy" means.

I don't know how exactly you can set up a course in the modern era that will blunt modern equipment. I'd be really interested to know what the dispersion rates are for drives today versus even 20 years ago. My suspicion is it's a lot less today and it's because of the efficacy of modern equipment. If a guy can step up to almost every tee and just blast away with his driver with no fear of it going too far offline, I don't know how you combat that except to cut 30 yard fairways. It's not only the distance that's crazy these days, but how forgiving the equipment is as well.

Driving accuracy today is less than it was in the past

I looked at driving accuracy in 1980, 1981 and 1982 (oldest years for stats on PGATOUR.com).

I compared that to 2017, 2016, 2015.

80-81-82: 63.2% fairways hit (359,748 fairways hit out of 568,973 possible fairways)

15-16-17: 60.9% fairways hit (335,075 fairways hit out of 549,907 possible fairways)

Another terrible argument. The further you hit it, the more likely you are to miss a fairway. This is common geometry. The fact that they are hitting it as far as they are and keeping fairways hit so close is pretty amazing.

God this has been the thread of terrible arguments.

Driving accuracy today is less than it was in the past

I looked at driving accuracy in 1980, 1981 and 1982 (oldest years for stats on PGATOUR.com).

I compared that to 2017, 2016, 2015.

80-81-82: 63.2% fairways hit (359,748 fairways hit out of 568,973 possible fairways)

15-16-17: 60.9% fairways hit (335,075 fairways hit out of 549,907 possible fairways)

Hmmm...I would have never guessed that. Of course, it's not completely apples to apples since there are more variables to consider such as the width of the fairways now vs then, how often the players hit driver vs 3 wood but still, I didn't expect that result.

Extend every drive from 1982 another 30 yards and their fairways hit would plummet. The margin of error decreased with length added.

Jasonic · June 21, 2017

Martin Kaymers winning total at Pinehurst in 2014 - 271 (Par 70) -9
Brooks Koepka winning total at Erin Hills in 2017 - 272 (Par 72) -16
Tiger Woods winning total at Pebble Beach in 2000 - 272 (Par 71) -12

3 previous US Opens (2014-2016) average winning total - 274

Funny how the USGA changing or actually keeping a courses PAR number skews a lot of perspectives.

1. The Tiger Woods route was a total anomaly. Historic in so many ways. The next best after him (iir) was Jimenez, at about +3. That means the ENTIRE FIELD was over par, except for one player. It's possibly the greatest tournament ever played, for one week at a major, for any player that has ever played the game.

2. I didn't like any of those other times that players were way under par. Rory at Congressional was a total bastardization of records. Hated it.

3. how many records were shattered this week? Record low? check. Record number under par? check. Record number double digit under par? check.

We could go on.

So what?

stickner · June 21, 2017

Another terrible argument. The further you hit it, the more likely you are to miss a fairway. This is common geometry. The fact that they are hitting it as far as they are and keeping fairways hit so close is pretty amazing.

God this has been the thread of terrible arguments.

Extend every drive from 1982 another 30 yards and their fairways hit would plummet. The margin of error decreased with length added.

Apparently you didn't read my post #304 in this thread. Go ahead and read it. Don't be ashamed to ask questions if you don't understand. We are here to help you through this.

My post above addresses the increased driving length using math instead of your generalization of "their fairways hit would plummet".

Plummet is such an exacting explanation. Thank you for bringing such scientific fact-based mathematical clarity to your argument.

North Texas · June 22, 2017

Driving accuracy today is less than it was in the past

I looked at driving accuracy in 1980, 1981 and 1982 (oldest years for stats on PGATOUR.com).

I compared that to 2017, 2016, 2015.

80-81-82: 63.2% fairways hit (359,748 fairways hit out of 568,973 possible fairways)

15-16-17: 60.9% fairways hit (335,075 fairways hit out of 549,907 possible fairways)

Hmmm...I would have never guessed that. Of course, it's not completely apples to apples since there are more variables to consider such as the width of the fairways now vs then, how often the players hit driver vs 3 wood but still, I didn't expect that result.

I would be surprised if the overall average width of fairways has changed, but I have nothing to base that on.

It's not a completely fair comparison. Back then, the median driving distance was roughly 255. Today the median driving distance is roughly 290.

On a 28 yard wide fairway for a 255 yard drive you can be offline +/- 3.15 degrees and still be in the fairway.

On a 28 yard wide fairway for a 290 yard drive you can be offline +/- 2.76 degrees and still be in the fairway (the further you hit it the harder it is to stay in the fairway).

All things being equal, you would expect about a 12.4% reduction in accuracy when going from 255 yard median drive to 290.

This means our 63.2% accuracy from 80-82 "should" drop to 55.4%, but it only dropped to 60.9%.

Notes:
Fairways today have shorter grass and run quicker making it even more difficult to stay in the fairway
Balls today don't spin as much making it tougher to "hold" the fairway
Equipment today is much more forgiving making it easier to keep balls more online
Golfers today are far superior athletically
Golfers today have tremendous technology available to them to assist with their swings as well as their scoring

The numbers from Erin Hills didn't work out the way you describe when it comes to driving accuracy.

Driving average was 17.5 yards longer than the average on tour so far this year.

Yet, driving accuracy for the U.S. Open was up 20% over the tour average for the year, 73% to 60.5%.

smoothie4896 · June 22, 2017

Anyone who says Erin Hills is/was to easy, is crazy. How many that are commenting on this thread have actually played it, I have multiple times, so let me explain. First time I played it was the second year it was open. I was a +2 handicap and came back home to WI for a visit. Played it back when they had the black tees set at 8200 yards (they have since changed the card to 7800 Black tees). Well I wanted to play it all the way back, it was a beast of a golf course. It was a 50 degree day and wind blowing 15-25mph which is usual for this area. I shot 88 and played some of the best golf a +2 can. And still shot an 88. Went in and talked with the proshop afterwards and they mentioned that the course record was currently held by Steve Striker (who had just played it a few weeks prior) with a score of 79. But this is from the double black tees that go to 8400 yards. Still think its easy?

What happened at the Open was a mix of unusually calm weather and lots of rain. After the crap storm the USGA had to hear about from Chambers Bay, Im sure they didnt want to set this up to hard and if the wind blows like it usually does, they make the course almost unplayable. Please imagine, 4 days of a course that plays at 8000 yards, wind blowing 20+ all the time, and you have the normal US Open conditions of fast fairways/greens at 14+. The players would have shot in the upper 70's and 80's and it would have been another PR nightmare. I can see why they were conservative, USGA doesnt control the weather. They were just basing their decision on how the weather normally is here. Plain and simple

North Texas · June 22, 2017

Anyone who says Erin Hills is/was to easy, is crazy. How many that are commenting on this thread have actually played it, I have multiple times, so let me explain. First time I played it was the second year it was open. I was a +2 handicap and came back home to WI for a visit. Played it back when they had the black tees set at 8200 yards (they have since changed the card to 7800 Black tees). Well I wanted to play it all the way back, it was a beast of a golf course. It was a 50 degree day and wind blowing 15-25mph which is usual for this area. I shot 88 and played some of the best golf a +2 can. And still shot an 88. Went in and talked with the proshop afterwards and they mentioned that the course record was currently held by Steve Striker (who had just played it a few weeks prior) with a score of 79. But this is from the double black tees that go to 8400 yards. Still think its easy?

What happened at the Open was a mix of unusually calm weather and lots of rain. After the crap storm the USGA had to hear about from Chambers Bay, Im sure they didnt want to set this up to hard and if the wind blows like it usually does, they make the course almost unplayable. Please imagine, 4 days of a course that plays at 8000 yards, wind blowing 20+ all the time, and you have the normal US Open conditions of fast fairways/greens at 14+. The players would have shot in the upper 70's and 80's and it would have been another PR nightmare. I can see why they were conservative, USGA doesnt control the weather. They were just basing their decision on how the weather normally is here. Plain and simple

So it did not play easy for the pros this week?

bscinstnct · June 22, 2017

Anyone who says Erin Hills is/was to easy, is crazy. How many that are commenting on this thread have actually played it, I have multiple times, so let me explain. First time I played it was the second year it was open. I was a +2 handicap and came back home to WI for a visit. Played it back when they had the black tees set at 8200 yards (they have since changed the card to 7800 Black tees). Well I wanted to play it all the way back, it was a beast of a golf course. It was a 50 degree day and wind blowing 15-25mph which is usual for this area. I shot 88 and played some of the best golf a +2 can. And still shot an 88. Went in and talked with the proshop afterwards and they mentioned that the course record was currently held by Steve Striker (who had just played it a few weeks prior) with a score of 79. But this is from the double black tees that go to 8400 yards. Still think its easy?

What happened at the Open was a mix of unusually calm weather and lots of rain. After the crap storm the USGA had to hear about from Chambers Bay, Im sure they didnt want to set this up to hard and if the wind blows like it usually does, they make the course almost unplayable. Please imagine, 4 days of a course that plays at 8000 yards, wind blowing 20+ all the time, and you have the normal US Open conditions of fast fairways/greens at 14+. The players would have shot in the upper 70's and 80's and it would have been another PR nightmare. I can see why they were conservative, USGA doesnt control the weather. They were just basing their decision on how the weather normally is here. Plain and simple

So it did not play easy for the pros this week?

Not for 8 of the top 10 in the world who got cut ; )

stickner · June 22, 2017

Driving accuracy today is less than it was in the past

I looked at driving accuracy in 1980, 1981 and 1982 (oldest years for stats on PGATOUR.com).

I compared that to 2017, 2016, 2015.

80-81-82: 63.2% fairways hit (359,748 fairways hit out of 568,973 possible fairways)

15-16-17: 60.9% fairways hit (335,075 fairways hit out of 549,907 possible fairways)

Hmmm...I would have never guessed that. Of course, it's not completely apples to apples since there are more variables to consider such as the width of the fairways now vs then, how often the players hit driver vs 3 wood but still, I didn't expect that result.

I would be surprised if the overall average width of fairways has changed, but I have nothing to base that on.

It's not a completely fair comparison. Back then, the median driving distance was roughly 255. Today the median driving distance is roughly 290.

On a 28 yard wide fairway for a 255 yard drive you can be offline +/- 3.15 degrees and still be in the fairway.

On a 28 yard wide fairway for a 290 yard drive you can be offline +/- 2.76 degrees and still be in the fairway (the further you hit it the harder it is to stay in the fairway).

All things being equal, you would expect about a 12.4% reduction in accuracy when going from 255 yard median drive to 290.

This means our 63.2% accuracy from 80-82 "should" drop to 55.4%, but it only dropped to 60.9%.

Notes:
Fairways today have shorter grass and run quicker making it even more difficult to stay in the fairway
Balls today don't spin as much making it tougher to "hold" the fairway
Equipment today is much more forgiving making it easier to keep balls more online
Golfers today are far superior athletically
Golfers today have tremendous technology available to them to assist with their swings as well as their scoring

The numbers from Erin Hills didn't work out the way you describe when it comes to driving accuracy.

Driving average was 17.5 yards longer than the average on tour so far this year.
Yet, driving accuracy for the U.S. Open was up 20% over the tour average for the year, 73% to 60.5%.

I wasn't being specific to Erin Hills. My analysis was looking at all players for all rounds across all courses.

Of course the fairways hit for Erin Hills would be higher as the average fairway width at Erin Hills is MUCH wider. Mike Davis said the average width of Erin Hills fairways is about 50% wider than a typical US Open setup.

smoothie4896 · June 22, 2017

Anyone who says Erin Hills is/was to easy, is crazy. How many that are commenting on this thread have actually played it, I have multiple times, so let me explain. First time I played it was the second year it was open. I was a +2 handicap and came back home to WI for a visit. Played it back when they had the black tees set at 8200 yards (they have since changed the card to 7800 Black tees). Well I wanted to play it all the way back, it was a beast of a golf course. It was a 50 degree day and wind blowing 15-25mph which is usual for this area. I shot 88 and played some of the best golf a +2 can. And still shot an 88. Went in and talked with the proshop afterwards and they mentioned that the course record was currently held by Steve Striker (who had just played it a few weeks prior) with a score of 79. But this is from the double black tees that go to 8400 yards. Still think its easy?

What happened at the Open was a mix of unusually calm weather and lots of rain. After the crap storm the USGA had to hear about from Chambers Bay, Im sure they didnt want to set this up to hard and if the wind blows like it usually does, they make the course almost unplayable. Please imagine, 4 days of a course that plays at 8000 yards, wind blowing 20+ all the time, and you have the normal US Open conditions of fast fairways/greens at 14+. The players would have shot in the upper 70's and 80's and it would have been another PR nightmare. I can see why they were conservative, USGA doesnt control the weather. They were just basing their decision on how the weather normally is here. Plain and simple

So it did not play easy for the pros this week?

Thats not the point of my post and I wouldnt say it played easy. Some guys played very well and some played very poorly. Ask some of the top ten that missed the cut by big numbers if they thought it was easy.

The point was to explain that its not an easy golf course and if set up hard like a normal US Open, it could be unplayable if the wind blows and no rain. USGA had to hedge their bets on this one and they decided to set it up easier than normal, thinking that the weather would be like it normally is.

Have you played it?

North Texas · June 22, 2017

Anyone who says Erin Hills is/was to easy, is crazy. How many that are commenting on this thread have actually played it, I have multiple times, so let me explain. First time I played it was the second year it was open. I was a +2 handicap and came back home to WI for a visit. Played it back when they had the black tees set at 8200 yards (they have since changed the card to 7800 Black tees). Well I wanted to play it all the way back, it was a beast of a golf course. It was a 50 degree day and wind blowing 15-25mph which is usual for this area. I shot 88 and played some of the best golf a +2 can. And still shot an 88. Went in and talked with the proshop afterwards and they mentioned that the course record was currently held by Steve Striker (who had just played it a few weeks prior) with a score of 79. But this is from the double black tees that go to 8400 yards. Still think its easy?

What happened at the Open was a mix of unusually calm weather and lots of rain. After the crap storm the USGA had to hear about from Chambers Bay, Im sure they didnt want to set this up to hard and if the wind blows like it usually does, they make the course almost unplayable. Please imagine, 4 days of a course that plays at 8000 yards, wind blowing 20+ all the time, and you have the normal US Open conditions of fast fairways/greens at 14+. The players would have shot in the upper 70's and 80's and it would have been another PR nightmare. I can see why they were conservative, USGA doesnt control the weather. They were just basing their decision on how the weather normally is here. Plain and simple

So it did not play easy for the pros this week?

Thats not the point of my post and I wouldnt say it played easy. Some guys played very well and some played very poorly. Ask some of the top ten that missed the cut by big numbers if they thought it was easy.
The point was to explain that its not an easy golf course and if set up hard like a normal US Open, it could be unplayable if the wind blows and no rain. USGA had to hedge their bets on this one and they decided to set it up easier than normal, thinking that the weather would be like it normally is.

Have you played it?

Nope, never played it. Son is playing it later this year but I didn't get invited :(

North Texas · June 22, 2017

Anyone who says Erin Hills is/was to easy, is crazy. How many that are commenting on this thread have actually played it, I have multiple times, so let me explain. First time I played it was the second year it was open. I was a +2 handicap and came back home to WI for a visit. Played it back when they had the black tees set at 8200 yards (they have since changed the card to 7800 Black tees). Well I wanted to play it all the way back, it was a beast of a golf course. It was a 50 degree day and wind blowing 15-25mph which is usual for this area. I shot 88 and played some of the best golf a +2 can. And still shot an 88. Went in and talked with the proshop afterwards and they mentioned that the course record was currently held by Steve Striker (who had just played it a few weeks prior) with a score of 79. But this is from the double black tees that go to 8400 yards. Still think its easy?

What happened at the Open was a mix of unusually calm weather and lots of rain. After the crap storm the USGA had to hear about from Chambers Bay, Im sure they didnt want to set this up to hard and if the wind blows like it usually does, they make the course almost unplayable. Please imagine, 4 days of a course that plays at 8000 yards, wind blowing 20+ all the time, and you have the normal US Open conditions of fast fairways/greens at 14+. The players would have shot in the upper 70's and 80's and it would have been another PR nightmare. I can see why they were conservative, USGA doesnt control the weather. They were just basing their decision on how the weather normally is here. Plain and simple

So it did not play easy for the pros this week?

Not for 8 of the top 10 in the world who got cut ; )

What about the 7 players who finished double-digit under par?

RobS14526 · June 22, 2017

Anyone who says Erin Hills is/was to easy, is crazy. How many that are commenting on this thread have actually played it, I have multiple times, so let me explain. First time I played it was the second year it was open. I was a +2 handicap and came back home to WI for a visit. Played it back when they had the black tees set at 8200 yards (they have since changed the card to 7800 Black tees). Well I wanted to play it all the way back, it was a beast of a golf course. It was a 50 degree day and wind blowing 15-25mph which is usual for this area. I shot 88 and played some of the best golf a +2 can. And still shot an 88. Went in and talked with the proshop afterwards and they mentioned that the course record was currently held by Steve Striker (who had just played it a few weeks prior) with a score of 79. But this is from the double black tees that go to 8400 yards. Still think its easy?

What happened at the Open was a mix of unusually calm weather and lots of rain. After the crap storm the USGA had to hear about from Chambers Bay, Im sure they didnt want to set this up to hard and if the wind blows like it usually does, they make the course almost unplayable. Please imagine, 4 days of a course that plays at 8000 yards, wind blowing 20+ all the time, and you have the normal US Open conditions of fast fairways/greens at 14+. The players would have shot in the upper 70's and 80's and it would have been another PR nightmare. I can see why they were conservative, USGA doesnt control the weather. They were just basing their decision on how the weather normally is here. Plain and simple

So it did not play easy for the pros this week?

Thats not the point of my post and I wouldnt say it played easy. Some guys played very well and some played very poorly. Ask some of the top ten that missed the cut by big numbers if they thought it was easy.
The point was to explain that its not an easy golf course and if set up hard like a normal US Open, it could be unplayable if the wind blows and no rain. USGA had to hedge their bets on this one and they decided to set it up easier than normal, thinking that the weather would be like it normally is.

Have you played it?

Devils advocate, why did they have to hedge for weather? Couldn't they have kept the course a little tighter and then break out the mowers if the weather forecast showed the winds would be up?

smoothie4896 · June 22, 2017

Anyone who says Erin Hills is/was to easy, is crazy. How many that are commenting on this thread have actually played it, I have multiple times, so let me explain. First time I played it was the second year it was open. I was a +2 handicap and came back home to WI for a visit. Played it back when they had the black tees set at 8200 yards (they have since changed the card to 7800 Black tees). Well I wanted to play it all the way back, it was a beast of a golf course. It was a 50 degree day and wind blowing 15-25mph which is usual for this area. I shot 88 and played some of the best golf a +2 can. And still shot an 88. Went in and talked with the proshop afterwards and they mentioned that the course record was currently held by Steve Striker (who had just played it a few weeks prior) with a score of 79. But this is from the double black tees that go to 8400 yards. Still think its easy?

What happened at the Open was a mix of unusually calm weather and lots of rain. After the crap storm the USGA had to hear about from Chambers Bay, Im sure they didnt want to set this up to hard and if the wind blows like it usually does, they make the course almost unplayable. Please imagine, 4 days of a course that plays at 8000 yards, wind blowing 20+ all the time, and you have the normal US Open conditions of fast fairways/greens at 14+. The players would have shot in the upper 70's and 80's and it would have been another PR nightmare. I can see why they were conservative, USGA doesnt control the weather. They were just basing their decision on how the weather normally is here. Plain and simple

So it did not play easy for the pros this week?

Thats not the point of my post and I wouldnt say it played easy. Some guys played very well and some played very poorly. Ask some of the top ten that missed the cut by big numbers if they thought it was easy.
The point was to explain that its not an easy golf course and if set up hard like a normal US Open, it could be unplayable if the wind blows and no rain. USGA had to hedge their bets on this one and they decided to set it up easier than normal, thinking that the weather would be like it normally is.

Have you played it?
Devils advocate, why did they have to hedge for weather? Couldn't they have kept the course a little tighter and then break out the mowers if the weather forecast showed the winds would be up?

Good point. The one thing I wish they would have done would be to bring the intermediete rough in. This would have made it tougher on the second shots, knocking off some of the spin and control. But still keeping it playable (unlike the love grass, waist high) and would have not been dictated by the weather.

But I truly believe after Chambers Bay, USGA (Mike Davis) wanted to make this one very playable and bring in some birdies and lowers scores.

Shilgy · June 22, 2017

Anyone who says Erin Hills is/was to easy, is crazy. How many that are commenting on this thread have actually played it, I have multiple times, so let me explain. First time I played it was the second year it was open. I was a +2 handicap and came back home to WI for a visit. Played it back when they had the black tees set at 8200 yards (they have since changed the card to 7800 Black tees). Well I wanted to play it all the way back, it was a beast of a golf course. It was a 50 degree day and wind blowing 15-25mph which is usual for this area. I shot 88 and played some of the best golf a +2 can. And still shot an 88. Went in and talked with the proshop afterwards and they mentioned that the course record was currently held by Steve Striker (who had just played it a few weeks prior) with a score of 79. But this is from the double black tees that go to 8400 yards. Still think its easy?

What happened at the Open was a mix of unusually calm weather and lots of rain. After the crap storm the USGA had to hear about from Chambers Bay, Im sure they didnt want to set this up to hard and if the wind blows like it usually does, they make the course almost unplayable. Please imagine, 4 days of a course that plays at 8000 yards, wind blowing 20+ all the time, and you have the normal US Open conditions of fast fairways/greens at 14+. The players would have shot in the upper 70's and 80's and it would have been another PR nightmare. I can see why they were conservative, USGA doesnt control the weather. They were just basing their decision on how the weather normally is here. Plain and simple

So it did not play easy for the pros this week?

Not for 8 of the top 10 in the world who got cut ; )

What about the 7 players who finished double-digit under par?

out of 156 players that are way into plus territory if handicapped? The course rating is 77.9 on a par 72. So for a +8 to shoot two under is playing to his cap-roughly. So 7-10 players played better than their handicap for the week and a vast majority were much worse.

Some posts want the equipment rolled back-some posts want the tour players to suffer once a year-some posts think the best players of all time, and ever will be, played a hundred years ago. We just had a post in the other thread that thinks you should mow the fairways to varying lengths and have greens varying speeds. That'll drive the scores up for sure! You can make a course difficult and a few players will still have a great week and score relatively well. Or you can trick it up like has been done a few times in the past and hope the grass survives the week.

North Texas · June 22, 2017

Anyone who says Erin Hills is/was to easy, is crazy. How many that are commenting on this thread have actually played it, I have multiple times, so let me explain. First time I played it was the second year it was open. I was a +2 handicap and came back home to WI for a visit. Played it back when they had the black tees set at 8200 yards (they have since changed the card to 7800 Black tees). Well I wanted to play it all the way back, it was a beast of a golf course. It was a 50 degree day and wind blowing 15-25mph which is usual for this area. I shot 88 and played some of the best golf a +2 can. And still shot an 88. Went in and talked with the proshop afterwards and they mentioned that the course record was currently held by Steve Striker (who had just played it a few weeks prior) with a score of 79. But this is from the double black tees that go to 8400 yards. Still think its easy?

What happened at the Open was a mix of unusually calm weather and lots of rain. After the crap storm the USGA had to hear about from Chambers Bay, Im sure they didnt want to set this up to hard and if the wind blows like it usually does, they make the course almost unplayable. Please imagine, 4 days of a course that plays at 8000 yards, wind blowing 20+ all the time, and you have the normal US Open conditions of fast fairways/greens at 14+. The players would have shot in the upper 70's and 80's and it would have been another PR nightmare. I can see why they were conservative, USGA doesnt control the weather. They were just basing their decision on how the weather normally is here. Plain and simple

So it did not play easy for the pros this week?

Thats not the point of my post and I wouldnt say it played easy. Some guys played very well and some played very poorly. Ask some of the top ten that missed the cut by big numbers if they thought it was easy.
The point was to explain that its not an easy golf course and if set up hard like a normal US Open, it could be unplayable if the wind blows and no rain. USGA had to hedge their bets on this one and they decided to set it up easier than normal, thinking that the weather would be like it normally is.

Have you played it?

I don't doubt for a minute that it's not an easy course. But it was not set up like a normal US Open course. It was set much easier. And I'm sure that the USGA had all kinds of weather data for this time of year at Erin Hills so they had a very good idea of what they were working with.

smoothie4896 · June 22, 2017

Anyone who says Erin Hills is/was to easy, is crazy. How many that are commenting on this thread have actually played it, I have multiple times, so let me explain. First time I played it was the second year it was open. I was a +2 handicap and came back home to WI for a visit. Played it back when they had the black tees set at 8200 yards (they have since changed the card to 7800 Black tees). Well I wanted to play it all the way back, it was a beast of a golf course. It was a 50 degree day and wind blowing 15-25mph which is usual for this area. I shot 88 and played some of the best golf a +2 can. And still shot an 88. Went in and talked with the proshop afterwards and they mentioned that the course record was currently held by Steve Striker (who had just played it a few weeks prior) with a score of 79. But this is from the double black tees that go to 8400 yards. Still think its easy?

What happened at the Open was a mix of unusually calm weather and lots of rain. After the crap storm the USGA had to hear about from Chambers Bay, Im sure they didnt want to set this up to hard and if the wind blows like it usually does, they make the course almost unplayable. Please imagine, 4 days of a course that plays at 8000 yards, wind blowing 20+ all the time, and you have the normal US Open conditions of fast fairways/greens at 14+. The players would have shot in the upper 70's and 80's and it would have been another PR nightmare. I can see why they were conservative, USGA doesnt control the weather. They were just basing their decision on how the weather normally is here. Plain and simple

So it did not play easy for the pros this week?

Thats not the point of my post and I wouldnt say it played easy. Some guys played very well and some played very poorly. Ask some of the top ten that missed the cut by big numbers if they thought it was easy.
The point was to explain that its not an easy golf course and if set up hard like a normal US Open, it could be unplayable if the wind blows and no rain. USGA had to hedge their bets on this one and they decided to set it up easier than normal, thinking that the weather would be like it normally is.

Have you played it?

I don't doubt for a minute that it's not an easy course. But it was not set up like a normal US Open course. It was set much easier. And I'm sure that the USGA had all kinds of weather data for this time of year at Erin Hills so they had a very good idea of what they were working with.

Agree. They had to set it up easier BECAUSE the normal weather in this area is NOT 85 and no breeze, its 60's maybe 70's and wind 15 MPH on the low end, usually blowing 20+ out in that area. And I truly know the weather around this area, I live 10 minutes from the golf course.

Plus, I think they wanted ZERO possibility of another Chambers.

games · June 22, 2017

Not for 8 of the top 10 in the world who got cut ; )

Nice post. Should have been EOT.

jslane57 · June 22, 2017

Not for 8 of the top 10 in the world who got cut ; )

Nice post. Should have been EOT.

I wonder, how many events are there where 8 of the top 10 golfers in the world miss the cut? I'd guess it is the easy courses where shootouts happen by regular people, not the super tough tracks where the best in the world rise to the top. Any stats gurus follow such trends?

North Texas · June 22, 2017

Not for 8 of the top 10 in the world who got cut ; )

Nice post. Should have been EOT.
I wonder, how many events are there where 8 of the top 10 golfers in the world miss the cut? I'd guess it is the easy courses where shootouts happen by regular people, not the super tough tracks where the best in the world rise to the top. Any stats gurus follow such trends?

Yea, I seriously doubt they missed the cut because of how tough the course was. Pretty sure it was more of how bad they were swinging the club.

Jasonic · June 22, 2017

Not for 8 of the top 10 in the world who got cut ; )

Nice post. Should have been EOT.
I wonder, how many events are there where 8 of the top 10 golfers in the world miss the cut? I'd guess it is the easy courses where shootouts happen by regular people, not the super tough tracks where the best in the world rise to the top. Any stats gurus follow such trends?

Yea, I seriously doubt they missed the cut because of how tough the course was. Pretty sure it was more of how bad they were swinging the club.

But the toughness of the course made those mistake more penal.

bscinstnct · June 22, 2017

Not for 8 of the top 10 in the world who got cut ; )

Nice post. Should have been EOT.
I wonder, how many events are there where 8 of the top 10 golfers in the world miss the cut? I'd guess it is the easy courses where shootouts happen by regular people, not the super tough tracks where the best in the world rise to the top. Any stats gurus follow such trends?

Its never happened before is my take.

And an argument that the top 8 out of 10 golfers on the planet were all just having a bad day is weak.

Dig deeper. One thing I noticed. The fairways were wide.

But.

1. You were hitting into them at a very awkward angle in many cases.

2. You could hang back to 250-260 where they were widest. But*, if you wanted to get out to the 280+ carry zone, the fairway pinched to as little as 25 yards and the fescue came into play even more.

golfheaven69 · June 22, 2017

Playing a US Open course that depends on wind isn't a good idea. Wind lays down and mid 60's abound. Maybe even a record setting score.

scores · June 22, 2017

Big greens allow for lower scores with these guys, The USGA needs to find courses with smaller greens than a normal tour event,

bobfoster · June 23, 2017

It was a disappointing US Open.

sekrah · June 23, 2017

Anyone who says Erin Hills is/was to easy, is crazy. How many that are commenting on this thread have actually played it, I have multiple times, so let me explain. First time I played it was the second year it was open. I was a +2 handicap and came back home to WI for a visit. Played it back when they had the black tees set at 8200 yards (they have since changed the card to 7800 Black tees). Well I wanted to play it all the way back, it was a beast of a golf course. It was a 50 degree day and wind blowing 15-25mph which is usual for this area. I shot 88 and played some of the best golf a +2 can. And still shot an 88. Went in and talked with the proshop afterwards and they mentioned that the course record was currently held by Steve Striker (who had just played it a few weeks prior) with a score of 79. But this is from the double black tees that go to 8400 yards. Still think its easy?

What happened at the Open was a mix of unusually calm weather and lots of rain. After the crap storm the USGA had to hear about from Chambers Bay, Im sure they didnt want to set this up to hard and if the wind blows like it usually does, they make the course almost unplayable. Please imagine, 4 days of a course that plays at 8000 yards, wind blowing 20+ all the time, and you have the normal US Open conditions of fast fairways/greens at 14+. The players would have shot in the upper 70's and 80's and it would have been another PR nightmare. I can see why they were conservative, USGA doesnt control the weather. They were just basing their decision on how the weather normally is here. Plain and simple

So it did not play easy for the pros this week?

Thats not the point of my post and I wouldnt say it played easy. Some guys played very well and some played very poorly. Ask some of the top ten that missed the cut by big numbers if they thought it was easy.
The point was to explain that its not an easy golf course and if set up hard like a normal US Open, it could be unplayable if the wind blows and no rain. USGA had to hedge their bets on this one and they decided to set it up easier than normal, thinking that the weather would be like it normally is.

Have you played it?

You just described every other tournament. Justin Thomas is +3 at the Travellers right now. That must mean you think TPC River Highlands is a tough course.

How it plays to amateurs is irrelevant, but you guys keep seeming to want to go down that round.

You can put all the lipstick you want on it, but Erin Hills is still a pig for US Open standards.

sekrah · June 23, 2017

Not for 8 of the top 10 in the world who got cut ; )

Nice post. Should have been EOT.
I wonder, how many events are there where 8 of the top 10 golfers in the world miss the cut? I'd guess it is the easy courses where shootouts happen by regular people, not the super tough tracks where the best in the world rise to the top. Any stats gurus follow such trends?

Yea, I seriously doubt they missed the cut because of how tough the course was. Pretty sure it was more of how bad they were swinging the club.

But the toughness of the course made those mistake more penal.

Justin Thomas +3..

Bubba Watson +5.

What a tough Travellers Championship. Do you even read your posts back to you before you click Post? Do you know how silly you sound?

sekrah · June 23, 2017

Playing a US Open course that depends on wind isn't a good idea. Wind lays down and mid 60's abound. Maybe even a record setting score.

This "it would have been tough if it was windier" argument from these guys is just beyond hilarious. They actually believe that no golf course can be tough to pros if there's calm winds? Mind boggling.

glk · June 23, 2017

For anyone interested here is climate data on Madison which is about 60 miles as the crow flies from the course.

In short the USGA picked a course that needed firm and fast, plus 15+ mph as the main defense during the wettest and start of the least windy period of the year.

And that is what they got. About 2.5 inches of rain spread out between 4 days (Monday night and then again Friday night) - not some huge deluge in one day or even a big amount of rain given the preceding conditions The only high winds were provided by the low that dragged the front across the area but it pulled NE rather quickly so it didn't even last the entire final round - and the leaders actually got the better draw since the wind laid down by the time they reached the turn.

Now pick August and you may not get the wind but firm and fast is quite possible. You need to go to early Spring or late Fall to get consistent windy conditions.

The USGA had to be aware of this while setting up the course.

https://weatherspark...n-United-States