Who on tour has a Malaska type swing??

[TB07]

I believe you are misunderstanding Mike's 'drill' about the time point in which he is recommending that the shaft be tipped or moved outside of the hand path. Mike clearly says this move is a drill and the golf swing will not look like what he is displaying as he describes how to do the drill. And, of course, the drill is for a golfer that has a tendency to keep the club's COM under the hand path, which causes the golfer to do all sorts of incorrect movements just to contact the ball...and with an open clubface unless he really Gamma torques it. Again, I think you are totally misunderstanding Mike's drill in terms of 'when' he is suggesting the shaft tips from inside the hand path to outside the hand path. Lastly, the 'drill' is something to garner a 'feel' of what is to be done to offset the swing fault...not a swing method per se - no more than is the drill that Justin Rose and many other tour pros use before making their real swing in which they look to be swinging drastically over-the-top and turning sharply left. Their real swings do not look like their drill...and neither should someone's real golf swing look like Mike's drill. I don't know why this is so hard for you to accept.

 

You do agree that at some point in the downswing that the clubhead must move to the outside of the hand path or the club will never contact the ball, right? Some golfers have a tendency to not get the club's COM outside the hand path and Mike's 'drill' helps them learn how to do it. It's just that simple...

 

If anyone is misunderstanding it's you. He's not saying anything about a drill in the video. He's discussing a theory on how the downswing works. Says multiple times YOU need to apply a force in the opposite direction that the club WANTS to go

(Which he claims is shallow). He also says you have to manipulate it and figure out how to square it from there. Which is actually incorrect because when the COM is behind the force it wants to line up with less effort and manipulation.

 

Also, he says it won't look as steep but he's also incorrect about that theory as well. Incorrect because it doesn't matter how it looks, it matters where the COM is going in relation to the net force. It can look "on plane" but still have the COM working above the force. Which is the example he shows. Another example would be a laid off backswing that steepens. Can still be not steep coming down but don't have COM working to your advantage.

 

Mike calls the move a 'practice swing'. He calls it a 'drill'. He says the practice swing and the real swing "doesn't look anything close to the same". Watch the video...

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

A.) that's not the video I posted

B.) I already addressed looks

 

But it's the video that I want you to address! You have seen this video because it has been posted in this discussion, but you elect to purposely ignore it. Is there some reason that you cannot address this video - where Malaska calls the move a 'practice swing' - he calls it a 'drill' ... and he says that the practice swing and the real swing "doesn't look anything close to the same"? You shouldn't get a pass to devote your negative opinion about one video, but purposely ignore this video because it destroys your narrative. C'mon man!

 

I'll say it once again. Most golfers already apply an "opposite force of what the club wants to do" and they apply too much of it. If they feel more it will be worse. Also, as I said before, if the COM drops behind it wants to line up late. As in the club head kicking out and club face squaring as the RESULT of the COM dropping behind.

[TB07]

Sergio? No way. He's polar opposite in transition than the Malaska move.

 

Sergio has been mentioned a few times and it perplexes me as to why

 

If you look closely at Sergio's move, he's not "laying the shaft off" anymore in transition (it's already there), so he's actually working it more like malaska said to make sure it is not laid down anymore. That's why you'll see GG's players have an across the line look at the top. It allows their shoulders to work properly to shallow the club on the way down.

 

He lays the shaft down in transition and late in downswing he is where Malaska considers stuck.

 

Take the first picture which isn't the top of backswing (it's starting down) but for arguments sake let's just say it's top to skew the argument in your favor.

 

 

 

Second and third pics later into downswing shaft getting flatter.

 

 

 

[BottleCap]

He's getting unstuck with the move

 

 

 

Handle in clubhead out

 

 

[ayan]

That is how I see it as well.

[TB07]

And handle I'm clubhead out occurs from the shallowing early. If it steepened early handle would raise and club would drop behind. It works out BECAUSE it's behind him.

[BottleCap]

In the Malaska move, the hands drop before "steepening feel", that's what he calls "over the top from the inside"

[jbw749]

I don't know I'm torn a bit on this one. I can see both sides of the argument. But in that last video he specifically says you need to feel like you turn it down right from the top. Personally I would rather turn the wheel the other way, shallow, get the elbow in tight, wait till the corner then whip a sh#tty the other way.

[Shilgy]

 

 

 

"It wants to start in the wrong direction"

So he says the golfer must apply an

Opposite force. Which is what most handicap golfers already do.

And from the videos I've seen from him he repeatedly states that this is not for them. It's for the handle dragging club behind players. Which has been stated many times in this thread but you keep saying it's not for everyone. On that at least you and Malaska agree!

[copperjeff]

After watching all of Mikes free YouTube videos, I have a couple thoughts to add.

 

In many of the videos, Mike talks about the clubhead wanting to fall behind the player. His reasononing about gravity being the culprit has been shown to be incorrect. This on its own does not completely devalidate all of Mikes ideas regarding the swing.

 

In one video he briefly talks about the rear elbows involvement in the downswing. Its almost an after thought comment. However, it is vital. Basically its shown the elbow has to move into proper position before the tumble occurs. If the elbow stays high and unattached, the tumbling move will assuredly cause the classic OTT move.

 

If you watch Mike demonstrate the tumble move, his elbow has always moved down, out, and forward from the top, which is a swallowing move, (Dependent on severity of direction of course.) BEFORE, the tumble occurs.

 

This thread is a classic example of how not being with an instructor with open communication can lead to very negative results, due to incomplete messages. Even so, iteach, made some very astute and on point observations about Mikes own swing, as well as Margarita's.

 

Good thread! (Overall)

[bigseanc12]

I don't know I'm torn a bit on this one. I can see both sides of the argument. But in that last video he specifically says you need to feel like you turn it down right from the top. Personally I would rather turn the wheel the other way, shallow, get the elbow in tight, wait till the corner then whip a sh#tty the other way.

 

For many, they must be told to exaggerate or perform a movement or manipulation early in order to have it happen on time.

 

I am not good at golf or an instructor in the sport (13 index), but I am an instructor in another very difficult sport and I see this every day with people that are not naturally gifted needing very exaggerated feels to make minute changes.

[Hilts1969]

Just to muddy the waters further and I'm surprised nobody has brought it up yet you have to also throw in a golfers reaction time. It's one reason why exaggeration drills are used.

[Strike Force]

Just to muddy the waters further and I'm surprised nobody has brought it up yet you have to also throw in a golfers reaction time. It's one reason why exaggeration drills are used.

 

Very true! The 'drill' or 'practice swing' Malaska demonstrates is aimed at a large audience of golfers with a particular swing fault so they can get a 'feel' for doing something different. It stands to reason that he must address his audience as though they have a wide range of abilities, which includes a wide range of reaction time. Good point...

 

In my opinion Malaska has made it very clear what the purpose of the drill or practice swing is to accomplish...and 99.9% of people I feel sure understand what he means. Of course that leaves 0.1% that don't understand...or claim they don't...

[Over it]

The thing is he says in one video to do it right from the top. Plus if you already do that and it causes all the issues that come from a steep club why would you need to do it more? All this talk about it's a drill or it's an exaggeration doesn't mean anything if the person doing it actually does what he says and they are already steep.

 

How does that help them? And in one of his videos he does say it's for everyone it might be the one's with be better golf or when he answers you tube question in 3 videos I can't remember which video but he does say it's for everyone. In other videos the thing about gravity that he asserts is just ridiculous!

 

He's basically describing positive beta torque in his videos. His deal is for "stuck" golfers and golfers who have too much negative beta torque.

 

It's not earth shattering or "the answer" for everyone. Some of his assertions are not correct but if it helps you ....

 

There's also the fact that some golfers won't even do what he says even though they think they are. If you actually do what he says and you are already steep in transition God have mercy on your soul...lol!

 

Oh and Sergio doesn't positive beta torque before he negative beta torques and he does positive beta later than MM thinks or says in that one video that's a fact and anyone who thinks otherwise has no clue what they are looking at. Iteach is totally right about Sergio!!!

[Hilts1969]

Just to muddy the waters further and I'm surprised nobody has brought it up yet you have to also throw in a golfers reaction time. It's one reason why exaggeration drills are used.

 

Very true! The 'drill' or 'practice swing' Malaska demonstrates is aimed at a large audience of golfers with a particular swing fault so they can get a 'feel' for doing something different. It stands to reason that he must address his audience as though they have a wide range of abilities, which includes a wide range of reaction time. Good point...

 

In my opinion Malaska has made it very clear what the purpose of the drill or practice swing is to accomplish...and 99.9% of people I feel sure understand what he means. Of course that leaves 0.1% that don't understand...or claim they don't...

 

It seems strange that certain instructors can post drills that are not seen in pros swings but are accepted because you don't actually do it precisely as shown in real time but when malaska does it it's all of a sudden taken very literally.

 

 

[Hilts1969]

The thing is he says in one video to do it right from the top. Plus if you already do that and it causes all the issues that come from a steep club why would you need to do it more? All this talk about it's a drill or it's an exaggeration doesn't mean anything if the person doing it actually does what he says and they are already steep.

 

How does that help them? And in one of his videos he does say it's for everyone it might be the one's with be better golf or when he answers you tube question in 3 videos I can't remember which video but he does say it's for everyone. In other videos the thing about gravity that he asserts is just ridiculous!

 

He's basically describing positive beta torque in his videos. His deal is for "stuck" golfers and golfers who have too much negative beta torque.

 

It's not earth shattering or "the answer" for everyone. Some of his assertions are not correct but if it helps you ....

 

There's also the fact that some golfers won't even do what he says even though they think they are. If you actually do what he says and you are already steep in transition God have mercy on your soul...lol!

 

Oh and Sergio doesn't positive beta torque before he negative beta torques and he does positive beta later than MM thinks or says in that one video that's a fact and anyone who thinks otherwise has no clue what they are looking at. Iteach is totally right about Sergio!!!

 

Let's take it from the top. Your first part says what if people do it right from the top exactly as he says. You don't believe in exaggeration drills?

[TB07]

Just to muddy the waters further and I'm surprised nobody has brought it up yet you have to also throw in a golfers reaction time. It's one reason why exaggeration drills are used.

 

Very true! The 'drill' or 'practice swing' Malaska demonstrates is aimed at a large audience of golfers with a particular swing fault so they can get a 'feel' for doing something different. It stands to reason that he must address his audience as though they have a wide range of abilities, which includes a wide range of reaction time. Good point...

 

In my opinion Malaska has made it very clear what the purpose of the drill or practice swing is to accomplish...and 99.9% of people I feel sure understand what he means. Of course that leaves 0.1% that don't understand...or claim they don't...

 

It seems strange that certain instructors can post drills that are not seen in pros swings but are accepted because you don't actually do it precisely as shown in real time but when malaska does it it's all of a sudden taken very literally.

 

Because most pros will say it's an exaggeration to fix whatever the opposite issues is. Malaska never says this is for people who get too shallow in order to exaggerate the opposite feel. He says this is how the swing works because the club wants to shallow automatically. He believes when golfers get under late and stand the club up its because they got too shallow too early, which isn't what happens.

[Over it]

Just to muddy the waters further and I'm surprised nobody has brought it up yet you have to also throw in a golfers reaction time. It's one reason why exaggeration drills are used.

 

Very true! The 'drill' or 'practice swing' Malaska demonstrates is aimed at a large audience of golfers with a particular swing fault so they can get a 'feel' for doing something different. It stands to reason that he must address his audience as though they have a wide range of abilities, which includes a wide range of reaction time. Good point...

 

In my opinion Malaska has made it very clear what the purpose of the drill or practice swing is to accomplish...and 99.9% of people I feel sure understand what he means. Of course that leaves 0.1% that don't understand...or claim they don't...

 

It seems strange that certain instructors can post drills that are not seen in pros swings but are accepted because you don't actually do it precisely as shown in real time but when malaska does it it's all of a sudden taken very literally.

 

 

Well some actually do it ...literally and anyone can see that most pros flatten the club before steepening it or if you prefer steepen it less than your average ranger rick.

[Over it]

The thing is he says in one video to do it right from the top. Plus if you already do that and it causes all the issues that come from a steep club why would you need to do it more? All this talk about it's a drill or it's an exaggeration doesn't mean anything if the person doing it actually does what he says and they are already steep.

 

How does that help them? And in one of his videos he does say it's for everyone it might be the one's with be better golf or when he answers you tube question in 3 videos I can't remember which video but he does say it's for everyone. In other videos the thing about gravity that he asserts is just ridiculous!

 

He's basically describing positive beta torque in his videos. His deal is for "stuck" golfers and golfers who have too much negative beta torque.

 

It's not earth shattering or "the answer" for everyone. Some of his assertions are not correct but if it helps you ....

 

There's also the fact that some golfers won't even do what he says even though they think they are. If you actually do what he says and you are already steep in transition God have mercy on your soul...lol!

 

Oh and Sergio doesn't positive beta torque before he negative beta torques and he does positive beta later than MM thinks or says in that one video that's a fact and anyone who thinks otherwise has no clue what they are looking at. Iteach is totally right about Sergio!!!

 

Let's take it from the top. Your first part says what if people do it right from the top exactly as he says. You don't believe in exaggeration drills?

 

 

You're asking a question to my question. If you do it from the top exactly like he says and you are steep already in transition what do you think will happen? It's not a trick question? If someone is steep does it help them to be more steep?

[Hilts1969]

Just to muddy the waters further and I'm surprised nobody has brought it up yet you have to also throw in a golfers reaction time. It's one reason why exaggeration drills are used.

 

Very true! The 'drill' or 'practice swing' Malaska demonstrates is aimed at a large audience of golfers with a particular swing fault so they can get a 'feel' for doing something different. It stands to reason that he must address his audience as though they have a wide range of abilities, which includes a wide range of reaction time. Good point...

 

In my opinion Malaska has made it very clear what the purpose of the drill or practice swing is to accomplish...and 99.9% of people I feel sure understand what he means. Of course that leaves 0.1% that don't understand...or claim they don't...

 

It seems strange that certain instructors can post drills that are not seen in pros swings but are accepted because you don't actually do it precisely as shown in real time but when malaska does it it's all of a sudden taken very literally.

 

Because most pros will say it's an exaggeration to fix whatever the opposite issues is. Malaska never says this is for people who get too shallow in order to exaggerate the opposite feel. He says this is how the swing works because the club wants to shallow automatically. He believes when golfers get under late and stand the club up its because they got too shallow too early, which isn't what happens.

 

He has said plenty of times that the move he shows will not happen as shown. The tumbling happens later than shown in the drill, the evidence is in every swing shown in his videos at full speed.

[MPStrat]

Just to muddy the waters further and I'm surprised nobody has brought it up yet you have to also throw in a golfers reaction time. It's one reason why exaggeration drills are used.

 

Very true! The 'drill' or 'practice swing' Malaska demonstrates is aimed at a large audience of golfers with a particular swing fault so they can get a 'feel' for doing something different. It stands to reason that he must address his audience as though they have a wide range of abilities, which includes a wide range of reaction time. Good point...

 

In my opinion Malaska has made it very clear what the purpose of the drill or practice swing is to accomplish...and 99.9% of people I feel sure understand what he means. Of course that leaves 0.1% that don't understand...or claim they don't...

 

It seems strange that certain instructors can post drills that are not seen in pros swings but are accepted because you don't actually do it precisely as shown in real time but when malaska does it it's all of a sudden taken very literally.

 

What if there was an instructor that taught a move in the majority of his videos that involved whipping the club inside and feeling like you’re fanning the face open right off the ball. This is actually a feel that would be useful to a very small percentage of golfers. To the majority it would be death. Just like “the malaska move”

 

Getting the club stuck behind is most often a late shallowing problem. If the arms shallow early, most don’t need to learn to actively tumble, it will be a natural. An active force is necessary if the club is steep early.

[Hilts1969]

The thing is he says in one video to do it right from the top. Plus if you already do that and it causes all the issues that come from a steep club why would you need to do it more? All this talk about it's a drill or it's an exaggeration doesn't mean anything if the person doing it actually does what he says and they are already steep.

 

How does that help them? And in one of his videos he does say it's for everyone it might be the one's with be better golf or when he answers you tube question in 3 videos I can't remember which video but he does say it's for everyone. In other videos the thing about gravity that he asserts is just ridiculous!

 

He's basically describing positive beta torque in his videos. His deal is for "stuck" golfers and golfers who have too much negative beta torque.

 

It's not earth shattering or "the answer" for everyone. Some of his assertions are not correct but if it helps you ....

 

There's also the fact that some golfers won't even do what he says even though they think they are. If you actually do what he says and you are already steep in transition God have mercy on your soul...lol!

 

Oh and Sergio doesn't positive beta torque before he negative beta torques and he does positive beta later than MM thinks or says in that one video that's a fact and anyone who thinks otherwise has no clue what they are looking at. Iteach is totally right about Sergio!!!

 

Let's take it from the top. Your first part says what if people do it right from the top exactly as he says. You don't believe in exaggeration drills?

 

 

You're asking a question to my question. If you do it from the top exactly like he says and you are steep already in transition what do you think will happen? It's not a trick question? If someone is steep does it help them to be more steep?

 

But it doesn't happen from the top. If you believe people will do the exact move show me the video where one person does it from the top.

[Hilts1969]

Just to muddy the waters further and I'm surprised nobody has brought it up yet you have to also throw in a golfers reaction time. It's one reason why exaggeration drills are used.

 

Very true! The 'drill' or 'practice swing' Malaska demonstrates is aimed at a large audience of golfers with a particular swing fault so they can get a 'feel' for doing something different. It stands to reason that he must address his audience as though they have a wide range of abilities, which includes a wide range of reaction time. Good point...

 

In my opinion Malaska has made it very clear what the purpose of the drill or practice swing is to accomplish...and 99.9% of people I feel sure understand what he means. Of course that leaves 0.1% that don't understand...or claim they don't...

 

It seems strange that certain instructors can post drills that are not seen in pros swings but are accepted because you don't actually do it precisely as shown in real time but when malaska does it it's all of a sudden taken very literally.

 

What if there was an instructor that taught a move in the majority of his videos that involved whipping the club inside and feeling like you’re fanning the face open right off the ball. This is actually a feel that would be useful to a very small percentage of golfers. To the majority it would be death. Just like “the malaska move”

 

Getting the club stuck behind is most often a late shallowing problem. If the arms shallow early, most don’t need to learn to actively tumble, it will be a natural. An active force is necessary if the club is steep early.

 

i have heard that most golfers problems are with a steep club in transition, would you agree?

[Over it]

The thing is he says in one video to do it right from the top. Plus if you already do that and it causes all the issues that come from a steep club why would you need to do it more? All this talk about it's a drill or it's an exaggeration doesn't mean anything if the person doing it actually does what he says and they are already steep.

 

How does that help them? And in one of his videos he does say it's for everyone it might be the one's with be better golf or when he answers you tube question in 3 videos I can't remember which video but he does say it's for everyone. In other videos the thing about gravity that he asserts is just ridiculous!

 

He's basically describing positive beta torque in his videos. His deal is for "stuck" golfers and golfers who have too much negative beta torque.

 

It's not earth shattering or "the answer" for everyone. Some of his assertions are not correct but if it helps you ....

 

There's also the fact that some golfers won't even do what he says even though they think they are. If you actually do what he says and you are already steep in transition God have mercy on your soul...lol!

 

Oh and Sergio doesn't positive beta torque before he negative beta torques and he does positive beta later than MM thinks or says in that one video that's a fact and anyone who thinks otherwise has no clue what they are looking at. Iteach is totally right about Sergio!!!

 

Let's take it from the top. Your first part says what if people do it right from the top exactly as he says. You don't believe in exaggeration drills?

 

 

You're asking a question to my question. If you do it from the top exactly like he says and you are steep already in transition what do you think will happen? It's not a trick question? If someone is steep does it help them to be more steep?

 

But it doesn't happen from the top. If you believe people will do the exact move show me the video where one person does it from the top.

 

 

So you think the average golfer isn't steep from the top and they are ok then and all the pros who shallow the club are doing it wrong? So no golfer has a steep shaft/club at the top/transition...really. I believe Iteach showed MM to be steep....right?

[Hilts1969]

The thing is he says in one video to do it right from the top. Plus if you already do that and it causes all the issues that come from a steep club why would you need to do it more? All this talk about it's a drill or it's an exaggeration doesn't mean anything if the person doing it actually does what he says and they are already steep.

 

How does that help them? And in one of his videos he does say it's for everyone it might be the one's with be better golf or when he answers you tube question in 3 videos I can't remember which video but he does say it's for everyone. In other videos the thing about gravity that he asserts is just ridiculous!

 

He's basically describing positive beta torque in his videos. His deal is for "stuck" golfers and golfers who have too much negative beta torque.

 

It's not earth shattering or "the answer" for everyone. Some of his assertions are not correct but if it helps you ....

 

There's also the fact that some golfers won't even do what he says even though they think they are. If you actually do what he says and you are already steep in transition God have mercy on your soul...lol!

 

Oh and Sergio doesn't positive beta torque before he negative beta torques and he does positive beta later than MM thinks or says in that one video that's a fact and anyone who thinks otherwise has no clue what they are looking at. Iteach is totally right about Sergio!!!

 

Let's take it from the top. Your first part says what if people do it right from the top exactly as he says. You don't believe in exaggeration drills?

 

 

You're asking a question to my question. If you do it from the top exactly like he says and you are steep already in transition what do you think will happen? It's not a trick question? If someone is steep does it help them to be more steep?

 

But it doesn't happen from the top. If you believe people will do the exact move show me the video where one person does it from the top.

 

 

So you think the average golfer isn't steep from the top and they are ok then and all the pros who shallow the club are doing it wrong? So no golfer has a steep shaft/club at the top...really. I believe Iteach showed MM to be steep....right?

 

Steep compared to who?

[Over it]

Just to muddy the waters further and I'm surprised nobody has brought it up yet you have to also throw in a golfers reaction time. It's one reason why exaggeration drills are used.

 

Very true! The 'drill' or 'practice swing' Malaska demonstrates is aimed at a large audience of golfers with a particular swing fault so they can get a 'feel' for doing something different. It stands to reason that he must address his audience as though they have a wide range of abilities, which includes a wide range of reaction time. Good point...

 

In my opinion Malaska has made it very clear what the purpose of the drill or practice swing is to accomplish...and 99.9% of people I feel sure understand what he means. Of course that leaves 0.1% that don't understand...or claim they don't...

 

It seems strange that certain instructors can post drills that are not seen in pros swings but are accepted because you don't actually do it precisely as shown in real time but when malaska does it it's all of a sudden taken very literally.

 

What if there was an instructor that taught a move in the majority of his videos that involved whipping the club inside and feeling like you’re fanning the face open right off the ball. This is actually a feel that would be useful to a very small percentage of golfers. To the majority it would be death. Just like “the malaska move”

 

Getting the club stuck behind is most often a late shallowing problem. If the arms shallow early, most don’t need to learn to actively tumble, it will be a natural. An active force is necessary if the club is steep early.

 

i have heard that most golfers problems are with a steep club in transition, would you agree?

Can you have a really upright b.s. and a steep transition? Does that make MM's move redundant , a lot of golfers do that already are they top players/golfers?

[Over it]

So why do we need Malaska to help us do what most golfers do already...he's kinda irrelevant then...yes?

[Hilts1969]

So why do we need Malaska to help us do what most golfers do already...he's kinda irrelevant then...yes?

 

You didn't answer my question

[Over it]

So why do we need Malaska to help us do what most golfers do already...he's kinda irrelevant then...yes?

 

You didn't answer my question

 

 

To themselves! And you didn't answer mine!

[Hilts1969]

I'm trying to

[MPStrat]

Just to muddy the waters further and I'm surprised nobody has brought it up yet you have to also throw in a golfers reaction time. It's one reason why exaggeration drills are used.

 

Very true! The 'drill' or 'practice swing' Malaska demonstrates is aimed at a large audience of golfers with a particular swing fault so they can get a 'feel' for doing something different. It stands to reason that he must address his audience as though they have a wide range of abilities, which includes a wide range of reaction time. Good point...

 

In my opinion Malaska has made it very clear what the purpose of the drill or practice swing is to accomplish...and 99.9% of people I feel sure understand what he means. Of course that leaves 0.1% that don't understand...or claim they don't...

 

It seems strange that certain instructors can post drills that are not seen in pros swings but are accepted because you don't actually do it precisely as shown in real time but when malaska does it it's all of a sudden taken very literally.

 

What if there was an instructor that taught a move in the majority of his videos that involved whipping the club inside and feeling like you’re fanning the face open right off the ball. This is actually a feel that would be useful to a very small percentage of golfers. To the majority it would be death. Just like “the malaska move”

 

Getting the club stuck behind is most often a late shallowing problem. If the arms shallow early, most don’t need to learn to actively tumble, it will be a natural. An active force is necessary if the club is steep early.

 

i have heard that most golfers problems are with a steep club in transition, would you agree?

 

I would. Most tumble immediately from the top of the swing and hit big slices.