The worst courses AZ

[DrSchteeve]

People haven't been harsh enough on Karsten, that place can bite it.

 

:help: I don't want to hijack a thread, but help me understand. What is wrong with Karsten?

 

everything

everything? I think a more specific answer or answers would respect the question a little more. It's hard to respect anybody's comment when they just throw a blanket on something and say everything is bad.

 

You can search this forum and find plenty of details. Crammed into small square site. Many blind shots created by pointless earth moving. Excessive fairway mounding. Spectacular views of power plant. Many memorably bad holes with few ( if any) memorably good ones. Holes that do not offer strategic options.

 

Between the name including Karsten and the architect Dye many just assume this must be a better course. But the Karsten just refers to donated money and for those that have played many of Dye's forgettable designs (great example is Red Mountain Ranch here in Phoenix) a terrible Dye design is no surprise. And those aren't just lay opinions. Tom Doak gave it a big fat 0 in his Confidential Guide to Golf Courses book.

[puttnforthe8]

Why don't you read the dozens and dozens of previous comments! The fact of the matter is: everything is bad about it. Name your criteria and it is bad!

[hybrid25]

Why don't you read the dozens and dozens of previous comments! The fact of the matter is: everything is bad about it. Name your criteria and it is bad!

well one thing I wouldn't see if I played there was you putting for an eight! lol

Still, the everything comment, seems rather childish to me, sorry about that.

[puttnforthe8]

Apologies that you think that...it was intended as a valid statement! It is getting bulldozed eventually and there will be a lot of golfers in lounge chairs watching with big smiles!

 

You berating others seems very childish!

[az2au]

Steve laid it out but it is even worse than he says. If I use the Golf Digest criteria for rating courses it comes out around 3.8. Poor shot values, repetitive design and unnecessary contrived features along with poor subjective categories seal the deal. It is a terribly designed course in every way. I honestly cannot think of anything good about it. Thus, the “everything” comment seems quite valid to me. It has been discussed here multiple times so I’d say p48’s request is quite fair.

[hybrid25]

Steve laid it out but it is even worse than he says. If I use the Golf Digest criteria for rating courses it comes out around 3.8. Poor shot values, repetitive design and unnecessary contrived features along with poor subjective categories seal the deal. It is a terribly designed course in every way. I honestly cannot think of anything good about it. Thus, the “everything” comment seems quite valid to me. It has been discussed here multiple times so I’d say p48’s request is quite fair.

well it doesn't seem like it is a favorable course, but I like people to be specific somewhat when they make their evaluations. I think that's only fair to the rest of the readers. You were much more specific in your post then the guy who putts for 8 all the time!

[TheMackDaddy]

Rio Rico is the worst course I have played in AZ. I remember the fairways being way too grown out and there was also an insect problem.

[golfandfishing]

I will give Karsten credit for a few good holes. 9,15,16 and 18 are great holes imo. But the inexplicable mounds in the middle of many fairways, the constant drone of the power plant, the accompanying power lines, the 7 minute tee times and the usually poor condition just scratches the surface of the overall awfulness.

[tucsonsean]

The worst I've played recently is AZ Grand. I'm tempted to play Phantom Horse just out of morbid curiosity now. I also seem to recall playing a course 20 years ago in Tucson that was absolutely awful. I think it was Silverleaf?? Hated everything about it. Smelled like a sewage treatment plant and that was the best part of the experience.

It's Silverbell, and if anything, they've made it worse, taking out most of the foliage, making it a long slog of nothing. The bomb and gouge clan like it because it's impossible to lose a ball there. Last time I was there (two weeks ago), some of the bunkers were in such bad repair that the bunkers were marked as 'ground under repair.' It's a disaster compared to the other four city courses, including El Rio, which was accurately critiqued in an earlier post. (FYI, of the other three city courses here in Tucson, the two center city courses, Randolph North and Del Urich, used to host, at various times, PGA Tour and LPGA Tour events; the sleeper is the East end's Fred Enke course. It's a true desert course, a bit on the short side, but no two holes are the same. You'll use all your arsenal and accuracy is a must--miss a fairway and it's in the desert.) BTW, I've been to the absolute worst course in Arizona: It's the Ajo Country Club way down near the border in Ajo, AZ (easily identified by the hand painted wooden sign that sits just inside the four-strand cattle fence at the entrance. It's a nine-hole mess adjoining an RV park that much of the year operates on the honor system. Just leave your greens fee in the box hanging by the locked 'clubhouse.')

[PingGuy68]

One course which beat all doesn't exist anymore was a gem in the back of the old Family Fun Center on McKellips in Mesa. They cut out orange trees to build it. A long hitter on the ranage could reach you on some holes. Nothing much over 100 yds, no grooming, and many of the greens had gopher holes. That was a bad course.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

I will give Karsten credit for a few good holes. 9,15,16 and 18 are great holes imo. But the inexplicable mounds in the middle of many fairways, the constant drone of the power plant, the accompanying power lines, the 7 minute tee times and the usually poor condition just scratches the surface of the overall awfulness.

 

Besides me willing to pay money to watch Karsten get bulldozed 9/18 are two of the worst holes. Prime example of Pete Dyes laziness. Basically a flipped mirror image of each other and a copy of 18 at sawgrass. Also 9/18 at Ancala too

[golfandfishing]

^^^

18 is not a hole I would wish to play needing a par to win. I think it is one of the toughest finishing holes in the area. Possibly one of the course’s other drawbacks also makes it tough - they don’t move pin positions ever and 18 has been back left every time I have played there.

[Chanceman]

Blessed are they that wear flipflops, sayeth the lord. (But not on the golf course, he also sayeth).

[teejaywhy]

I will give Karsten credit for a few good holes. 9,15,16 and 18 are great holes imo. But the inexplicable mounds in the middle of many fairways, the constant drone of the power plant, the accompanying power lines, the 7 minute tee times and the usually poor condition just scratches the surface of the overall awfulness.

 

Besides me willing to pay money to watch Karsten get bulldozed 9/18 are two of the worst holes. Prime example of Pete Dyes laziness. Basically a flipped mirror image of each other and a copy of 18 at sawgrass. Also 9/18 at Ancala too

 

I thought the same, 9 & 18 total cookie cutter designs. Not fond of 16 either.

 

 

[sub150]

Agree with everyone on Karsten. 4 is my favorite hole. Bunker in the middle, water left of green and in play off the tee if you are a bomber...basic green but it feeds down to the water to make it tricky, but not impossible by any means, if you end up on the right side with a chip on.

 

Karsten and both Biltmore's are the courses that people like/pay decent coin for that are terrible value and I avoid.

 

I've been meaning to play Coronado's 9 hole course which looks truly terrible. It's my go to range spot since they have lights and cheap beer/balls (terrible balls, terrible grass, and terrible putting/chipping).

[jlbos83]

Rio Rico is the worst course I have played in AZ. I remember the fairways being way too grown out and there was also an insect problem.

It is sad. A few years ago it was a fun place to play, especially for the money. Then it started sliding downhill. They tried to fix it, but I am not sure they had a good plan. They rebuilt some greens, and a few months later they were as bad as they were previously. I've read that there were/are irrigation system issues. If they don't fix that, there's no point. I hope it comes back. The setting is nice, and it has some history.

 

As far as El Rio goes, it did host the very first Tucson Open. I enjoy playing there, perhaps I am not good enough to recognize bad. It is flat, for sure. I found that I actually could hold a few greens this weekend from 150 or so out. Now the week before reseed, you could not hold anything, but that's not a shock with no water in them!

[HandsomeMatt]

I'll be out there in a week ,flying in on the 12th, plan on playing 18 saturday morning and 18 at twilight, then flying home on Sunday. I'm staying at the AZ Grand but after everything I've read, not playing there. Right now it's looking like walking Saguaro in the morning, having lunch, then riding Cholla after that. What makes Arizona Grand so horrible?

[BUCKEYERBALL88]

I'll be out there in a week ,flying in on the 12th, plan on playing 18 saturday morning and 18 at twilight, then flying home on Sunday. I'm staying at the AZ Grand but after everything I've read, not playing there. Right now it's looking like walking Saguaro in the morning, having lunch, then riding Cholla after that. What makes Arizona Grand so horrible?

 

Consider Eagle Mtn over cholla

[Shipwreck]

Rio Rico is the worst course I have played in AZ. I remember the fairways being way too grown out and there was also an insect problem.

 

As far as El Rio goes, it did host the very first Tucson Open. I enjoy playing there, perhaps I am not good enough to recognize bad. It is flat, for sure. I found that I actually could hold a few greens this weekend from 150 or so out. Now the week before reseed, you could not hold anything, but that's not a shock with no water in them!

 

I guess maybe I’ve just never played El Rio when it was in good shape, so my view is very skewed by that. It does have a deep history and if I’m not mistaken, someone told me that back in its hay day it had something like close to (or over) 230 bunkers throughout the course. If it’s in good shape, I’ll give it a shot.

[xjohnx]

Hahaha I wish I saw this thread sooner. I don't visit the southwest forum often but lived in Scottsdale in 2010-2012 and played most of these courses. Definitely have to agree on most of the comments here. For sake of discussion I'd disagree on Sun Ridge Canyon as I really liked that track. You're right about the fact that it's crazy target golf but that can be very defeating and unenjoyable if you're not hitting it well. I think particular experience can influence the opinion here. I also have a soft spot for Kokopelli since I worked there once a week for a while. If I played there once I'd agree with you guys but, playing it as many times as I did I grew to like a lot of those holes. If you can tune out the houses and the dirt banks on the sides of most holes it's a fun course. But similarly to above, I had a lot of good times and laughs out there with a good group of guys just having a good time. That can make all the difference.

[puttnforthe8]

Just wondering if the all dirt golf course out there on the way out east counts for this list?

[HandsomeMatt]

I'll be out there in a week ,flying in on the 12th, plan on playing 18 saturday morning and 18 at twilight, then flying home on Sunday. I'm staying at the AZ Grand but after everything I've read, not playing there. Right now it's looking like walking Saguaro in the morning, having lunch, then riding Cholla after that. What makes Arizona Grand so horrible?

 

Consider Eagle Mtn over cholla

So I took your advice, 8 AM tee time walking at Saguaro and 1:30, I think, at Eagle Mountain. Might rent the golfboard thing there too, anybody done that?

[az2au]

I'll be out there in a week ,flying in on the 12th, plan on playing 18 saturday morning and 18 at twilight, then flying home on Sunday. I'm staying at the AZ Grand but after everything I've read, not playing there. Right now it's looking like walking Saguaro in the morning, having lunch, then riding Cholla after that. What makes Arizona Grand so horrible?

 

Consider Eagle Mtn over cholla

So I took your advice, 8 AM tee time walking at Saguaro and 1:30, I think, at Eagle Mountain. Might rent the golfboard thing there too, anybody done that?

 

Not at Eagle Mountain but I’ve used golf boards at a bunch of places. The only one with similar elevation changes would be Mauna Kea. It was fine there and a blast as always. I enjoy those almost as much as walking unless you have to wait a lot.

[copperjeff]

After reading this thread I don't think enough people have played Apache Creek. *shudder*

 

I'm usually just happy being on a golf course, but I refuse to play there again.

 

Its starts being flat and uninteresting and just gets worse. Everything is rock hard, the desert swallows golf balls, brush grows rampant, there is no rough, only wider "fairway" and then desert, there are a couple of just dumb out of place water "features", signage and direction of cart path don't always make sense.

 

Also I dislike landing on the green and ending up in the desert (15ft away), not to mention the idiots that honk horns purposely in your backswing at ironwood and baseline.

 

 

Ok, rant over for now.....

 

 

No wait.... PICK a 9 as the front and keep it (the 600yard 1st was always dumb).

[PingGuy68]

After reading this thread I don't think enough people have played Apache Creek. *shudder*

 

I'm usually just happy being on a golf course, but I refuse to play there again.

 

Its starts being flat and uninteresting and just gets worse. Everything is rock hard, the desert swallows golf balls, brush grows rampant, there is no rough, only wider "fairway" and then desert, there are a couple of just dumb out of place water "features", signage and direction of cart path don't always make sense.

 

Also I dislike landing on the green and ending up in the desert (15ft away), not to mention the idiots that honk horns purposely in your backswing at ironwood and baseline.

 

 

Ok, rant over for now.....

 

 

No wait.... PICK a 9 as the front and keep it (the 600yard 1st was always dumb).

 

I played there once. Had a good time. Tried to rebook and got the name wrong, ended up playing in a trailer park. I'm gonna give it another shot some day.

[fore_life]

I’ve played it a few times and im pretty torn on it. I think it’s a pretty fun course on a really ugly property. Not that scenery REALLY matters but the desert there is just a different type of bland. Put it on a piece of property akin to toka sticks (flat parkland with grass/trees) and I think the course would be much more enjoyable. Range is like Johnson ranch, desert sands experience where you hit into a field of dirt haha.

 

Which brings me to the worst range: it has to be club west, right?

[One_Putt_Blunder]

At least you can stare at the Superstitions while playing Apache Creek.

[PingGuy68]

Ive played it a few times and im pretty torn on it. I think its a pretty fun course on a really ugly property. Not that scenery REALLY matters but the desert there is just a different type of bland. Put it on a piece of property akin to toka sticks (flat parkland with grass/trees) and I think the course would be much more enjoyable. Range is like Johnson ranch, desert sands experience where you hit into a field of dirt haha.

 

Which brings me to the worst range: it has to be club west, right?

While reading this my email notification popped up. It was an email from Club West. Gave me a chuckle. Their range is pretty bad. Many in the area are as well because of high hack traffic and loads of sand. The grass simply can't grow fast enough. I know Karsten has been blasted as a course but at least they try to save the range for the weekend by limiting to mats a few days a week.

[just plain bill]

wow! what a thread! moved to austin 10yrs ago after playing 15yrs in phx (central and bethany) and it's sad to hear how so many courses have gone downhill...and how some of my favorite courses are being ripped! lol

i really enjoyed rancho manana. thought each hole was kind of interesting and usually visually exciting.

the biltmore had 2 courses, and one was boring and flat, but the other was also a favorite, and i played it a bunch. don't recall the names tho...

karsten? um...i thought it had 1 or 2 interesting holes...not a fave...

papago? never in great condition, but i played it a bunch...what have the renovations done for it?

cave creek: conditioning always an issue, but a fun layout...almost drove 18 from the whites! (a swing never to be duplicated) took an 8. :(

with all the name changes, i cant recall which is which...i liked painted horse (or something like that...still have a coupla ball markers somewhere in the bag) painted mt? one hole was 3 and you had to run the cart up the hill to the tee...

was sad to hear mesa fam golf cntr had closed...don was mgr and outstanding guy! bought a lot of stuff on those huge demo weekends...still have the nike sweet 16 in the bag! (bought for daughter, but she preferred the lucky 13. that 16 is my favorite club of all time!) her hubby has the 10.5 i bought that day as well...

anyway, the cottonfields...not great...

lookout mt was also high on my list...i liked #9! and ten was somewhat intimidating the first time...

club west had maybe 2 interesting holes, one being that elevated tee (par 4?)

and, yes, i loved dinosaur mt...

elephant rocks in williams was a lot of fun...

 

i know we like what we like, and opinions vary. i like lots of elevation changes, but i also like a links style as well, and we have those here in the austin area. am i gonna spend $50 on a round here? no. i play so much (plus fishing and boat upkeep) that i kinda need to keep costs down (he says as he just bought 11 dozen chrome softs and 2 clubs off ebay...and that's just THIS week) but if you're ever in the area, check out roy kizer (links) and morris williams (elevations)..yeah, i know a certain someone is gonna chime in and ridicule those 2 courses, but they are fun courses, so shutty, lol...

[PingGuy68]

This is the Family Golf Center in Mesa. I think it was supposed to be houses. Ill have to drive by and see if this is an old satellite view. You can see the little course they had in the trees.