Single Length Updates (post'em up!)

[Noodler]

Look into MBI matched club builds; 99% of the benefits of SL iron sets without any of the drawbacks (of which you have noticed). I have posted often about MBI, so please take a look at the discussions already out there for more in-depth info. A major benefit of going MBI is the ability to use off-the-shelf equipment/components and not be stuck with a very limited selection of options.

[OsnolaKinnard]

What are MBI matched clubs?

[games]

@Noodler gave these definitions in an old thread:Swingweight is a static measure of the balance of a club about a point 14" from the butt end. It is not a "weight" measurement and it is only a relative measurement as long as all the components of the clubs being compared use the same shafts, heads, and grips. Swingweight cannot be compared directly between clubs that have any components that are different.MOI is a measure of the dynamic heft of club; how much effort does it take to swing the club. MOI is an absolute measure and can be compared across clubs of differing components, but matching MOI alone will not duplicate feel unless the components chosen result in the same weight distribution.MBI (MOI Balance Index) does take both the MOI and the distribution of the weight into account. Matching MBI across clubs will provide the same "feel" in swinging the clubs.

Link to that helpful thread here: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1284360/whats-the-difference-between-moi-matched-irons-and-the-amt-shafts/p1

[Noodler]

With the definitions already provided above, let's put this into the context of SL clubs since that's what this thread is about.

The idea/goal of SL clubs is to have a set of clubs that have identical weighting, feel, and setup at address. This should all hopefully lead to improved consistency in the golfer's swing when using the SL clubs. It's hard to actually accomplish these goals and still have the clubs work optimally from the bottom of the bag to the top; gapping issues, trajectory challenges, etc. When companies start altering club aspects in order to address some of the challenges, they often start moving away from actually sticking to the original goals (i.e. Cobra).

Another way to meet most of the goals of SL clubs is to use MOI Balance Index (MBI) matched clubs. MBI goes a step further beyond just MOI matching by ensuring that the weight balance of the clubs is identical too. It is possible to build 2 clubs that have the same MOI, but radically different weight balance. One club can have a very heavy head with a light shaft while the other uses a heavy shaft with a light head. They'll both measure to the same MOI, but won't feel the same when swung. This is because golfers are sensitive to the BALANCE of the clubs. The balance comes from how the weight has been distributed between the components along the length of the club. With MBI, the weight distribution is proportionally the same from club to club. The balance point of the finished clubs progresses in a manner that duplicates the feel across the set. It's interesting to note that these sets match the MOI and MBI along with the swingweight also being practically matched (only varies by about 1.0-1.5 points across the set).

The only thing that MBI matching misses on when compared to SL clubs is that the clubs will vary in length. In order to easily use off-the-shelf components, we typically use 3/8" increments instead of 1/2", but this particular increment value isn't a requirement. The 3/8" increment progression does compress the length variation though and improves the consistency in the setup at address. In exchange for this one trade-off, you get to use whatever clubs/components you like and you don't have to worry about gapping issues and low trajectories in the long irons.

 

[Noodler]

We have an active thread going that includes more detail and some interesting new information from real-world testing: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1837862/moi-of-a-golf-club-where-did-it-go

 

[games]

@Noodler I think you have me sold on the benefit of MBI.
There is a psychological benefit that single length provides, which is confidence in being able to swing roughly 8-9 different clubs out of a 14-club bag the same.
That said, there is a more tangible benefit that single length addresses in theory: An "optimal" length for an individual's unique physical attributes such as height, arm length, inseam, and of course, swing characteristics.
Let's assume that is true, at which point the question is how much benefit from "length optimization" is lost in a variable length set with each incremental increase / decrease in club length away from the one "optimal" club?

[PowderedToastMan]

I’m not sure I’m a SL convert, but I’m certainly a convert to playing my long irons at 37”. I ordered some new Forged Tec Ones in the 5 and 6 iron (1 degree flat, 6 iron is 1 degree weak, $Taper Lite in X) to go with my 7-PW in iBlades. As a shorter guy, this was a revelation. Long irons have always been my weakness, but I was immediately better with this configuration.

I’ll also mention that working with Cobra was excellent. I put my custom order in with them directly and they have been a breeze to work with.

[Noodler]

The length variation is pretty much a non-issue when the clubs are MBI matched. I find that my brain doesn't even really notice the length variation when the clubs feel/swing the same. If you consider how a club works in a correct golf swing, the length variation should be inconsequential. My hand height at impact (and hand path) is practically the same no matter which of the irons/wedges I'm swinging. If you're a "handle raiser" then I could see where that swing flaw would be made less noticeable by SL clubs, but that topic is for the teaching forum...

So what I'm stating is that the feel of MBI matched clubs reduces the variation golfers normally attribute to changes in club length. You may have to experience it for yourself in order to really wrap your brain around why this is the case.

[Noodler]

For those interested in creating an "almost" MBI matched set of clubs using a "poor man's" approach, use a set of ascending weight shafts (AMT, AWT, or AMC) coupled with the 3/8" length increment and a "calculated" 0.5 swingweight point progression from the long irons to the shorter (final swingweight won't actually have this resulting slope). This will get you in the ballpark. As to what MOI/MBI value is optimal for you; that's a value that requires testing to arrive at. I think there's benefit in a poor man's build even it isn't at the absolutely optimal MBI value for your swing.

 

[OsnolaKinnard]

Neat. I am going to have to read up on that a bit.

I want to build a set of irons that are like this:

5 and 6 iron 38.5" long

7-9 irons 37.5" long

PW, GW, SW, LW 36'5" long

For me, I would need a +2* lie angle. Having something like this with a CB in the 5 and 6 irons and blades in the 7-LW wool be kind of cool.

[OsnolaKinnard]

It is interesting to me how we have the exact 'opposite' likes for SL clubs. My short iron/wedge play has gotten so much better since playing longer length at the bottom of the bag and I really don't care for my 5 iron.

[NRJyzr]

 

Have you seen the latest Pinhawk set? Adding to the Single Length setup, they've come out with a Vertex Dual Length set. 3i-5i are one length (they use 38" as standard), the 6i on down are an inch and a half shorter.

You can read more at https://www.valuegolf.com/pinhawk-vertex-dual-length-iron-heads

Disclaimer: not affiliated with them other than as a customer.

[OsnolaKinnard]

I had not seen that, thanks for sharing it. The Edels have a weight port that I think they can changed out.

with what I have going on, I won’t be doing this anytime soon, but I will eventually get it done.

[yoose]

 

Are SL clubs already MBI matched or they just produce similar results?

[ode1]

Isn't MBI matching the same thing as "heft" matching? I've been doing 3/8" and 0.5 increase in SW for a while (caveat = must be using same shafts and grips). Seems to work well with slightly longer short irons and slightly shorter long irons. CW shafts help and I prefer them to AW. I've tried to use the lighter weight steel shafts and middling graghite (85-105g) with limited success. I need heavier steel shafts. I've always considered this heft matching. I have no experience with an MOI machine but do have a SW scale. It's useful if one has a basic understanding of what you need up front....but otherwise it's pretty much useless IMO!

[ChaosTheory]

The Pinhawk Vertex are very SGI, very wide soles.

[Noodler]

SL clubs are MBI matched if they use the same exact shaft in all the clubs (same weight for all the shafts) and all the club heads are the same exact weight. This ensures that they have the same balance point and weight distribution. Any alteration of either of these aspects in order to overcome some of the limitations of SL will not result in the MBI being matched.

[Noodler]

I'm not sure what "heft matching" is. If it refers to the dynamic heft when swinging the club, then that's MOI matching. But as previously noted, MOI matching alone does not match feel when swung. The common "poor man's" method of MOI matching will not result in the MOI being matched when using ascending weight shafts, but I still think it's better than swingweight matching for some golfers.

[ShakeyT]

I play VL GW - 6i, but have the F9 OL 5h -3h.

I have never felt more confident in my game from 180 - 200 yds.

Seriously considering replacing my VL 6i with a 2020 Forged Tec OL 6i or maybe even a OL F9.

[Noodler]

On 8/9/2020 at 12:49 PM, OsnolaKinnard said:

Neat. I am going to have to read up on that a bit.

I want to build a set of irons that are like this:

5 and 6 iron 38.5" long

7-9 irons 37.5" long

PW, GW, SW, LW 36'5" long

For me, I would need a +2* lie angle. Having something like this with a CB in the 5 and 6 irons and blades in the 7-LW wool be kind of cool.

I believe that the way the off-the-shelf components are designed, the final builds must be "progressive" in all aspects.  The heads are progressive in their design (weight, physical dimensions, etc.).  The shafts are also progressive in their flex (step patterns or wall thickness) and balance.  So anytime I see ideas on how to create a set that isn't consistently progressive, I see red flags.  You're not going to get the results you think you are.  If you're not going all in on SL, then build to consistently progressive setups, no matter which approach you choose.  I just don't see how these modified SL-like approaches will lead to consistency for the golfer's swing.  They seem more like "crutches" to me.

[OsnolaKinnard]

On 8/17/2020 at 7:34 PM, Noodler said:

I believe that the way the off-the-shelf components are designed, the final builds must be "progressive" in all aspects.  The heads are progressive in their design (weight, physical dimensions, etc.).  The shafts are also progressive in their flex (step patterns or wall thickness) and balance.  So anytime I see ideas on how to create a set that isn't consistently progressive, I see red flags.  You're not going to get the results you think you are.  If you're not going all in on SL, then build to consistently progressive setups, no matter which approach you choose.  I just don't see how these modified SL-like approaches will lead to consistency for the golfer's swing.  They seem more like "crutches" to me.

I think it could be done by someone like Edel.  The Paderson SL shafts have the appropriate weighting and flex profiles, and the SlS01 heads have a weight port in the back that allows them to get the correct weighting required.

 

i was going to try this with an old set of Golfsmith Pro forged heads I have and opted not to and am just going to reshaft them to my VL specs.  Going with a nippon NS Pro 1150 tours In stiff flex @ 38” for the 7 iron and 1/2” increments for the 8-PW.

[extrastiff]

Question for the people following this thread. What would happen if Bryson use nine iron length instead of 7-iron length? At his swing speed, I would think he should have better dispersion and still decent gapping. His 6 iron can go over 230 average, and driver 330 average, so seems like plenty of room to mess with shorter, stiffer, easier to swing irons. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by extrastiff

[extrastiff]

Single length update:

-love em. Playing 58 degree-6iron at 37.3 ish inches, forged one length. getting them loft jacked a bit strong as we speak. 2 iron-5 iron are variable length. 64 degree is vl also. 
-x7 wedge shafts in all of them

-the longer 8-lw really ups the club speed, Mishits are a lot more forgiving because of the extra speed I feel. nice to not have to lean over as much too. I do wonder if I could go even shorter (36.5 maybe). It does not seem to hurt my ability to pitch and chip
 

[extrastiff]

On 8/17/2020 at 8:34 PM, Noodler said:

I believe that the way the off-the-shelf components are designed, the final builds must be "progressive" in all aspects.  The heads are progressive in their design (weight, physical dimensions, etc.).  The shafts are also progressive in their flex (step patterns or wall thickness) and balance.  So anytime I see ideas on how to create a set that isn't consistently progressive, I see red flags.  You're not going to get the results you think you are.  If you're not going all in on SL, then build to consistently progressive setups, no matter which approach you choose.  I just don't see how these modified SL-like approaches will lead to consistency for the golfer's swing.  They seem more like "crutches" to me.

I’d agree about the head design aspect, but I have used the wedge shaft throughout my single length set in different heads/weight with success.

but the difficulties of getting the head designs to match up in feel from club to club would make that build a headache. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by extrastiff

[Badshaft]

4 hours ago, extrastiff said:

Question for the people following this thread. What would happen if Bryson use nine iron length instead of 7-iron length? At his swing speed, I would think he should have better dispersion and still decent gapping. His 6 iron can go over 230 average, and driver 330 average, so seems like plenty of room to mess with shorter, stiffer, easier to swing irons. 

I think in Brysons case he wants his shaft a certain length to work with his posture and upright swing along with his iron head lie is are upright- I don't think he fits an average golfers swing SL or Regular-

[extrastiff]

18 minutes ago, Badshaft said:

I think in Brysons case he wants his shaft a certain length to work with his posture and upright swing along with his iron head lie is are upright- I don't think he fits an average golfers swing SL or Regular-

Wedges are more upright, no? I think he’d be fine. But as far as as 7 iron maybe being a more comfortable posture I could see that

[games]

@extrastiff I think Bryson said part of the reason he likes SL is that it only requires one spine angle, which in his mind, reduces chance of back problems.

 

[extrastiff]

1 hour ago, games said:

@extrastiff I think Bryson said part of the reason he likes SL is that it only requires one spine angle, which in his mind, reduces chance of back problems.

 

That’s fine, what’s the difference between switching that spine angle from 7 iron to 9 iron? Or is he suggesting he uses same spine angle for woods/driver also?

 

either way, put aside his personal preference, injury likelihood, etc..

 

in theory, if he could make it work for him, he could sacrifice the inch off his irons and maybe have even tighter dispersion, agreed? 

Edited November 3, 2020 by extrastiff

[jordan_mccomb]

Would love to get this thread back up and going.

 

I have heard different thoughts regarding using all ~7iron length shafts or using a progressive set trimmed to ~7iron length.

 

I played Edel SLS01 with the Paderson X flex short iron profile (95g) in all of my irons, but found the long irons launched slightly low for my liking. I mistakenly sold them, when I should have just tried some new shafts. They were great clubs, but I did get almost my full value back. Still regret it though. I have a set of Wishon Sterling irons right now that I'm looking to get shafted up and would love some insight. I'm going to try to head to my local fitter to experiment, but it's not easy without demo long iron heads.

 

I would like to hear from fast swing speed players ideally (120+ driver). Here are my main two questions:

• Have you tried both progressive irons cut down and all 7 iron shafts? If so what differences did you notice
• Shaft weight. I played 95g Paderson shafts which I actually liked even though I'm playing 130g X100 in my regular set now. I think a 110-115 g would be optimal. How has shaft weight effected performance for you?
• Has anyone tried going 7-PW in a heavier shaft and 4-6 in a lighter shaft? I know it is common for tour players to play their 3/4 sometimes 5 iron with a lighter, usually graphite shaft.

Thanks

[extrastiff]

2 hours ago, jordan_mccomb said:

Would love to get this thread back up and going.

 

I have heard different thoughts regarding using all ~7iron length shafts or using a progressive set trimmed to ~7iron length.

 

I played Edel SLS01 with the Paderson X flex short iron profile (95g) in all of my irons, but found the long irons launched slightly low for my liking. I mistakenly sold them, when I should have just tried some new shafts. They were great clubs, but I did get almost my full value back. Still regret it though. I have a set of Wishon Sterling irons right now that I'm looking to get shafted up and would love some insight. I'm going to try to head to my local fitter to experiment, but it's not easy without demo long iron heads.

 

I would like to hear from fast swing speed players ideally (120+ driver). Here are my main two questions:

• Have you tried both progressive irons cut down and all 7 iron shafts? If so what differences did you notice
• Shaft weight. I played 95g Paderson shafts which I actually liked even though I'm playing 130g X100 in my regular set now. I think a 110-115 g would be optimal. How has shaft weight effected performance for you?
• Has anyone tried going 7-PW in a heavier shaft and 4-6 in a lighter shaft? I know it is common for tour players to play their 3/4 sometimes 5 iron with a lighter, usually graphite shaft.

Thanks

-shaft weight did impact performance, as well as flex

-if u swing 120 with driver, I recommend trying a shorter than 7 iron build.my one lengths are pw length right now, I really love it. U don’t need the speed, the increased accuracy has been great for me. 
-when swing pw length, no need to go lighter in long irons for faster speed. Again, if ur 120+.  Otherwise, it’s a decent path But matching flex profile with different weight was not easiest. Ymmv. I like 120g or more, tried less, and the launch and spin and dispersion went crazy on full swings. 

-tried all 7 iron, tried progressive, all types of flex. settled now on all x7 wedge shafts at pw length. 5-9 iron. Went with a vokey pw cause who wouldn’t pick that over cobra pw. 

-tried 110 steelfibers. That is a nice build. If super fast swinger, not the best fit probably