Rolling back the ball

[Roadking2003]

And too be fair pros aren't even destroying all these shorter courses. Last week in Mexico at a sub 7000 yard course, with a stacked field, there was a diverse leaderboard including guys who aren't "bombers" and a respectable -16 winning score for a 4 day event.

 

this is true. Scores are not going down.

[rangersgoalie]

My rookie year was a difficult season.

New course every week, new cities. Where to eat

What are the perfect lines off the tee? Where is a good spots to miss around the greens. What hole location might be used? And where does the normal wind come from and worse how different does it play when the wind changes from the day of. Unpracticed round? All of the veranda have this information on almost every course over many years of experience in all conditions

 

Add bifurcation. And I’d assume at web.com levels as welll

 

Now I’m a rookie playing a completely different ball or equipment, playing against guys who have used it for however long the rule has been in place and they know the reactions backwards and forwards. I couldn’t imagine the disadvantage already making a rookie year difficult.

 

If there is a rollback and it is not across the board, there is a level that will be screwed in an already difficult world to break in to. I do understand the reasons. And believe IF those reasons are enough, it should be across the board

 

I think it’s interesting that some want to bring back the better players and stop the pretty normal 2-3 yards per mph graph as long as it doesn’t affect THEIR bottom line in the game whatever that is. Just make the other guys change everything.

[knock it close]

And too be fair pros aren't even destroying all these shorter courses. Last week in Mexico at a sub 7000 yard course, with a stacked field, there was a diverse leaderboard including guys who aren't "bombers" and a respectable -16 winning score for a 4 day event.

 

this is true. Scores are not going down.

Right because courses keep getting lengthened, narrowed, the rough grown, and the greens firmed up and running at 12+. I don't understand that argument, if the courses weren't constantly being toughened fine but that's not the case.

[clevited]

And too be fair pros aren't even destroying all these shorter courses. Last week in Mexico at a sub 7000 yard course, with a stacked field, there was a diverse leaderboard including guys who aren't "bombers" and a respectable -16 winning score for a 4 day event.

 

this is true. Scores are not going down.

 

Don't forget the elevation.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

If you're not concerned about scoring, there is no problem with the golf ball.

Argue about "shot values", etc. all you want.

 

I think the concern is not necessarily about the scores themselves but how players arrive at those scores.

 

Drive and a draw with a 7-iron to a back left pin to set up a birdie putt = great golf.

 

Drive and a greenside chip to set up a birdie putt = meh.

 

I think it's more about a preferred style of play than it is about a number. It's about golf looking less like golf and more like a combination of a RE/MAX long drive competition coupled with a round of pitch-n-putt.

 

And to be clear, I'm not advocating a rollback. But for me, the debate is more about how a player arrives at a number and not so much the number itself.

 

I don't think you and I are that far off.

Maybe the only difference is that I think someone who can hit Drive/greenside chip to set up birdie displays a lot of talent. Much more than someone who has to hit a full wedge in. That, to me, is shotmaking.

 

I can agree with that. I don't dispute that distance should be rewarded. It should. Just like good putting or good bunker play should be rewarded. All facets of the game should have an advantage if you do it especially well.

 

I think there's a line to toe somewhere and I'll use a particular hole from the Mexico WGC as an example. It was a par 4, around 380 yards, dogleg right. Dustin Johnson lined up practically sideways on the tee box and bombed a driver over the trees and the ball bounced off the back of the green to where his second shot was just a little chip.

 

Should DJ be rewarded for his length? Absolutely. Just like Zach Johnson should be rewarded for his wedge play or Steve Stricker should be rewarded for his putting. But I think where things get tricky is when analyzing how that hole was designed to be played. The designer did not design the hole for a player to line up sideways and bomb a 380 yard drive (altitude obviously a factor here) over the trees and onto the green. It was designed to hit a cut around the corner (not over it) or play a tee shot into the bend of the dogleg and set up a longer second shot.

 

If the game that is being played gets too big for the venue it's being played on, is that okay or not okay?

 

To take something to an extreme ...... what if we reached a point where literally every single par 4 was a pitch shot and every single par 5 was easily attacked in two shots? Would that still be a good thing or would it get a little ...... "blah?" Now obviously that's an extreme hypothetical and we aren't close to that yet. But just picturing what that would look like and whether or not that would cause more people to say "yeah this is getting a little lame here."

 

It's a good debate and one that's healthy for the game. It's a shame that so much of it has gone the way of personal attacks and insults, like so many debates here do. But such is life. :golfer:

 

I definitely understand your concerns. I just don't share them. I love watching players play holes how they weren't designed to be played. That's just awesome.

If everything was driver/chip, it wouldn't be great, either. I agree with you there.

I'm just saying that where it is now is just fine. No need for a rollback. Just a cap; which I believe is already in place.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Should we change the entire industry, or just let it go and enjoy watching?

 

"[C]hange the entire industry"?

 

I thought we were talking about a change to golf ball testing protocols that would effectively create a minor rollback of performance conditions for golf balls. No rule changes for clubs; nothing to do with any other part of the golf game or the golf industry.

 

 

Yeah, so, change the entire [golf ball] industry. I guess I thought that was what we were discussing, given the thread title and all . . .

 

Dude, you might be mistaking me for someone who cares about "the golf ball industry."

 

Still there is no reason -- apart from some emotional thing that I do not understand -- why a rollback should be a problem for "the entire golf ball industry." New testing specs, and any new Rules would have us all buying new balls, with new designs. The manufacturers could have a big time selling us on the best balls under the new testing protocol. "The Longest Balls!" just like now, under a slightly different set of testing protocols.

 

Or, and stop traffic here, do nothing.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

My rookie year was a difficult season.

New course every week, new cities. Where to eat

What are the perfect lines off the tee? Where is a good spots to miss around the greens. What hole location might be used? And where does the normal wind come from and worse how different does it play when the wind changes from the day of. Unpracticed round? All of the veranda have this information on almost every course over many years of experience in all conditions

 

Add bifurcation. And I'd assume at web.com levels as welll

 

Now I'm a rookie playing a completely different ball or equipment, playing against guys who have used it for however long the rule has been in place and they know the reactions backwards and forwards. I couldn't imagine the disadvantage already making a rookie year difficult.

 

If there is a rollback and it is not across the board, there is a level that will be screwed in an already difficult world to break in to. I do understand the reasons. And believe IF those reasons are enough, it should be across the board

 

I think it's interesting that some want to bring back the better players and stop the pretty normal 2-3 yards per mph graph as long as it doesn't affect THEIR bottom line in the game whatever that is. Just make the other guys change everything.

 

 

Great perspective, per usual.

[bladehunter]

totally false. i didn't get involved in golf until 2007, already firmly in the bomb-and-gouge era.

 

i don't actually support a regulation change whereas a 12 hole 2500yd golf course would be "big enough" for a complete test of the game because that would be the same modification of current golf courses i'm against.

 

 

lol me too... 38 here and started playing in 2014.....i did work at a private club from 1995-2000 on the maintenance staff .....so was around the game... but being a lets say " less than rich "kid at the time it seemed out of reach in a way ... Hindsight i think that was not true..but it seemed true at the time. I did however play many sports very well... and was offered a full ride to go to school running track...through a series of events i passed that up.... got married started a business and fast forward to 2014 and for some reason i pulled out my mismatched set of clubs from the lost and found of the where i used to work....... and then i found this place.... never had a handicap over 5 ....and truly thought all people played against par...didnt know of the handicap system before joining my club .

 

 

said all that to say this..... Call me snobish , or stuck in my "golden years "if you like ... But it just isnt true... my golden years are only 4years old.... im around 12 in golf years... I am however a lover of history and i think the best way to see where we are now is to study the past... as for snobbish... lol whatever... i can curl your nose hair with the story of my roots.. and how long ive attended to my self...But i wont... I will just say that i worked my way into playing this game and belonging to a club ... Not once did it cross my mind to change the game or the club to suit myself....I grew the game by adding myself and now my 9 year old... Its from this place that it irks me to no end when the "why cant i play my loud music and get drunk on the course" crowd screams " grow the game"....

 

Back to the point.... Im coming from a place that is genuine.. I hit the ball a long way... and i see guys blowing courses up at the High tier am level.... last year in our county AM an ex App state player shot -24 for 3 days on a 7200 yard track.... I see all sides of this ..or at least try to .. But i dont think some get what is happening with the driver/ launch monitors and the ball.....

 

anyway im tired now ..lol main point is stop pretending that anyone wanting a roll back is an old fart...has days gone by tendencies, or is a snob born of blue blood....

[OrangeGravy]

Studies were done a couple years after the groove rule change. It showed no discernible difference in how Tour players played off the tee or their scoring when playing with wedges from the rough.

 

The rule changed forced everyone to (eventually) get new, conforming wedges and it failed totally at affecting wedge play among elite players, which was the justification.

 

At the time, the blowhards at USGA proclaimed that it would combat "Bomb and Gouge" by forcing players to pay a price for missing fairways or missing greens. They would be less able to count on controlling the ball out of the rough and would therefore place a greater premium on "accuracy" over distance.

 

As most of us could have predicted, it had no such effect.

 

The groove rule was stupid don't get me wrong. It was pointless, but it didn't force anyone not getting free clubs to get new wedges ( unless you're a competitive am). This always comes up on these forums. " Are the grooves conforming"...Who cares. It doesn't affect regular golfers. Why do golfers have such a strong urge to pretend to be pro's? What do people get out of that? I don't think there is a hobby or activity that has more posers in it than golf. It astounds me really.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

totally false. i didn't get involved in golf until 2007, already firmly in the bomb-and-gouge era.

 

i don't actually support a regulation change whereas a 12 hole 2500yd golf course would be "big enough" for a complete test of the game because that would be the same modification of current golf courses i'm against.

 

 

lol me too... 38 here and started playing in 2014.....i did work at a private club from 1995-2000 on the maintenance staff .....so was around the game... but being a lets say " less than rich "kid at the time it seemed out of reach in a way ... Hindsight i think that was not true..but it seemed true at the time. I did however play many sports very well... and was offered a full ride to go to school running track...through a series of events i passed that up.... got married started a business and fast forward to 2014 and for some reason i pulled out my mismatched set of clubs from the lost and found of the where i used to work....... and then i found this place.... never had a handicap over 5 ....and truly thought all people played against par...didnt know of the handicap system before joining my club .

 

 

said all that to say this..... Call me snobish , or stuck in my "golden years "if you like ... But it just isnt true... my golden years are only 4years old.... im around 12 in golf years... I am however a lover of history and i think the best way to see where we are now is to study the past... as for snobbish... lol whatever... i can curl your nose hair with the story of my roots.. and how long ive attended to my self...But i wont... I will just say that i worked my way into playing this game and belonging to a club ... Not once did it cross my mind to change the game or the club to suit myself....I grew the game by adding myself and now my 9 year old... Its from this place that it irks me to no end when the "why cant i play my loud music and get drunk on the course" crowd screams " grow the game"....

 

Back to the point.... Im coming from a place that is genuine.. I hit the ball a long way... and i see guys blowing courses up at the High tier am level.... last year in our county AM an ex App state player shot -24 for 3 days on a 7200 yard track.... I see all sides of this ..or at least try to .. But i dont think some get what is happening with the driver/ launch monitors and the ball.....

 

anyway im tired now ..lol main point is stop pretending that anyone wanting a roll back is an old fart...has days gone by tendencies, or is a snob born of blue blood....

 

Just as an aside, I just played in South Carolina two weeks ago. I was in Charleston for a bachelor party and did a side mission to Kiawah Ocean Course because, why not? Holy hell! Great course, and I hit it so much farther than I do on the west coast. I was seriously carrying it as far as the roll out in SoCal. It was at least a club shorter on the approaches. I wish I could play there all the time, just for my ego. You guys who play out there are truly blessed.

[rangersgoalie]

My rookie year was a difficult season.

New course every week, new cities. Where to eat

What are the perfect lines off the tee? Where is a good spots to miss around the greens. What hole location might be used? And where does the normal wind come from and worse how different does it play when the wind changes from the day of. Unpracticed round? All of the veranda have this information on almost every course over many years of experience in all conditions

 

Add bifurcation. And I'd assume at web.com levels as welll

 

Now I'm a rookie playing a completely different ball or equipment, playing against guys who have used it for however long the rule has been in place and they know the reactions backwards and forwards. I couldn't imagine the disadvantage already making a rookie year difficult.

 

If there is a rollback and it is not across the board, there is a level that will be screwed in an already difficult world to break in to. I do understand the reasons. And believe IF those reasons are enough, it should be across the board

 

I think it's interesting that some want to bring back the better players and stop the pretty normal 2-3 yards per mph graph as long as it doesn't affect THEIR bottom line in the game whatever that is. Just make the other guys change everything.

 

 

Great perspective, per usual.

[clevited]

totally false. i didn't get involved in golf until 2007, already firmly in the bomb-and-gouge era.

 

i don't actually support a regulation change whereas a 12 hole 2500yd golf course would be "big enough" for a complete test of the game because that would be the same modification of current golf courses i'm against.

 

 

lol me too... 38 here and started playing in 2014.....i did work at a private club from 1995-2000 on the maintenance staff .....so was around the game... but being a lets say " less than rich "kid at the time it seemed out of reach in a way ... Hindsight i think that was not true..but it seemed true at the time. I did however play many sports very well... and was offered a full ride to go to school running track...through a series of events i passed that up.... got married started a business and fast forward to 2014 and for some reason i pulled out my mismatched set of clubs from the lost and found of the where i used to work....... and then i found this place.... never had a handicap over 5 ....and truly thought all people played against par...didnt know of the handicap system before joining my club .

 

 

said all that to say this..... Call me snobish , or stuck in my "golden years "if you like ... But it just isnt true... my golden years are only 4years old.... im around 12 in golf years... I am however a lover of history and i think the best way to see where we are now is to study the past... as for snobbish... lol whatever... i can curl your nose hair with the story of my roots.. and how long ive attended to my self...But i wont... I will just say that i worked my way into playing this game and belonging to a club ... Not once did it cross my mind to change the game or the club to suit myself....I grew the game by adding myself and now my 9 year old... Its from this place that it irks me to no end when the "why cant i play my loud music and get drunk on the course" crowd screams " grow the game"....

 

Back to the point.... Im coming from a place that is genuine.. I hit the ball a long way... and i see guys blowing courses up at the High tier am level.... last year in our county AM an ex App state player shot -24 for 3 days on a 7200 yard track.... I see all sides of this ..or at least try to .. But i dont think some get what is happening with the driver/ launch monitors and the ball.....

 

anyway im tired now ..lol main point is stop pretending that anyone wanting a roll back is an old fart...has days gone by tendencies, or is a snob born of blue blood....

 

To the bolded portion, I would just say very plainly, you get treated how you act and treat others. I haven't read all of your posts but that goes for everyone on forums, certainly including myself. In text form of conversation, I find one has to be really careful of wording if you don't want to be "gotten wrong".

[radiman]

Studies were done a couple years after the groove rule change. It showed no discernible difference in how Tour players played off the tee or their scoring when playing with wedges from the rough.

 

The rule changed forced everyone to (eventually) get new, conforming wedges and it failed totally at affecting wedge play among elite players, which was the justification.

 

At the time, the blowhards at USGA proclaimed that it would combat "Bomb and Gouge" by forcing players to pay a price for missing fairways or missing greens. They would be less able to count on controlling the ball out of the rough and would therefore place a greater premium on "accuracy" over distance.

 

As most of us could have predicted, it had no such effect.

 

The groove rule was stupid don't get me wrong. It was pointless, but it didn't force anyone not getting free clubs to get new wedges ( unless you're a competitive am). This always comes up on these forums. " Are the grooves conforming"...Who cares. It doesn't affect regular golfers. Why do golfers have such a strong urge to pretend to be pro's? What do people get out of that? I don't think there is a hobby or activity that has more posers in it than golf. It astounds me really.

 

It's not so much that it forced anyone to buy new clubs. It had a negative effect on the every day golfers game and didn't do what they set out to accomplish on the pro level. I still have a set of old wedges that I bring out for the hell of it. There is a huge difference in bite from what I can tell. I carry a single digit handicap. For those that are in the teens, it would be even more significant. Couple that with the fact that major manufacturers don't produce non-conforming wedges, then they have no option when it comes time to replace the wedges.

[bladehunter]

totally false. i didn't get involved in golf until 2007, already firmly in the bomb-and-gouge era.

 

i don't actually support a regulation change whereas a 12 hole 2500yd golf course would be "big enough" for a complete test of the game because that would be the same modification of current golf courses i'm against.

 

 

lol me too... 38 here and started playing in 2014.....i did work at a private club from 1995-2000 on the maintenance staff .....so was around the game... but being a lets say " less than rich "kid at the time it seemed out of reach in a way ... Hindsight i think that was not true..but it seemed true at the time. I did however play many sports very well... and was offered a full ride to go to school running track...through a series of events i passed that up.... got married started a business and fast forward to 2014 and for some reason i pulled out my mismatched set of clubs from the lost and found of the where i used to work....... and then i found this place.... never had a handicap over 5 ....and truly thought all people played against par...didnt know of the handicap system before joining my club .

 

 

said all that to say this..... Call me snobish , or stuck in my "golden years "if you like ... But it just isnt true... my golden years are only 4years old.... im around 12 in golf years... I am however a lover of history and i think the best way to see where we are now is to study the past... as for snobbish... lol whatever... i can curl your nose hair with the story of my roots.. and how long ive attended to my self...But i wont... I will just say that i worked my way into playing this game and belonging to a club ... Not once did it cross my mind to change the game or the club to suit myself....I grew the game by adding myself and now my 9 year old... Its from this place that it irks me to no end when the "why cant i play my loud music and get drunk on the course" crowd screams " grow the game"....

 

Back to the point.... Im coming from a place that is genuine.. I hit the ball a long way... and i see guys blowing courses up at the High tier am level.... last year in our county AM an ex App state player shot -24 for 3 days on a 7200 yard track.... I see all sides of this ..or at least try to .. But i dont think some get what is happening with the driver/ launch monitors and the ball.....

 

anyway im tired now ..lol main point is stop pretending that anyone wanting a roll back is an old fart...has days gone by tendencies, or is a snob born of blue blood....

 

Just as an aside, I just played in South Carolina two weeks ago. I was in Charleston for a bachelor party and did a side mission to Kiawah Ocean Course because, why not? Holy hell! Great course, and I hit it so much farther than I do on the west coast. I was seriously carrying it as far as the roll out in SoCal. It was at least a club shorter on the approaches. I wish I could play there all the time, just for my ego. You guys who play out there are truly blessed.

 

 

Absolutely. Kiawah is worth it for sure. And yes. South Carolina plus North Carolina is the golf capital of the US. I don’t care what Florida says. We have more diverse courses and some great hidden gems you’ve never heard of.

 

 

Side note. If you are ever out this way again pm me. I have a little pull with a customer who is a member from harbor town and couple other Hilton Head area courses. I can get us on.

[bladehunter]

totally false. i didn't get involved in golf until 2007, already firmly in the bomb-and-gouge era.

 

i don't actually support a regulation change whereas a 12 hole 2500yd golf course would be "big enough" for a complete test of the game because that would be the same modification of current golf courses i'm against.

 

 

lol me too... 38 here and started playing in 2014.....i did work at a private club from 1995-2000 on the maintenance staff .....so was around the game... but being a lets say " less than rich "kid at the time it seemed out of reach in a way ... Hindsight i think that was not true..but it seemed true at the time. I did however play many sports very well... and was offered a full ride to go to school running track...through a series of events i passed that up.... got married started a business and fast forward to 2014 and for some reason i pulled out my mismatched set of clubs from the lost and found of the where i used to work....... and then i found this place.... never had a handicap over 5 ....and truly thought all people played against par...didnt know of the handicap system before joining my club .

 

 

said all that to say this..... Call me snobish , or stuck in my "golden years "if you like ... But it just isnt true... my golden years are only 4years old.... im around 12 in golf years... I am however a lover of history and i think the best way to see where we are now is to study the past... as for snobbish... lol whatever... i can curl your nose hair with the story of my roots.. and how long ive attended to my self...But i wont... I will just say that i worked my way into playing this game and belonging to a club ... Not once did it cross my mind to change the game or the club to suit myself....I grew the game by adding myself and now my 9 year old... Its from this place that it irks me to no end when the "why cant i play my loud music and get drunk on the course" crowd screams " grow the game"....

 

Back to the point.... Im coming from a place that is genuine.. I hit the ball a long way... and i see guys blowing courses up at the High tier am level.... last year in our county AM an ex App state player shot -24 for 3 days on a 7200 yard track.... I see all sides of this ..or at least try to .. But i dont think some get what is happening with the driver/ launch monitors and the ball.....

 

anyway im tired now ..lol main point is stop pretending that anyone wanting a roll back is an old fart...has days gone by tendencies, or is a snob born of blue blood....

 

To the bolded portion, I would just say very plainly, you get treated how you act and treat others. I haven't read all of your posts but that goes for everyone on forums, certainly including myself. In text form of conversation, I find one has to be really careful of wording if you don't want to be "gotten wrong".

 

Not really worried about being gotten wrong . Just discrediting the assertion that was put out.

 

 

And also add that what you say above goes for you as well. And a good bit of slack has been left in the rope for you since you are new. Running around telling folks how snobbish they are etc isn’t the best way to make pals. ....

 

I argue with a couple here ( north butte etc). But they know I mean no harm. And they give as good as they get without crossing the line. So don’t read our posts And think we are mortal enemies. We aren’t.

[gvogel]

It sure would be nice to know what we are arguing about.

 

I would love to see two tests - both done at the 120 mph swing speed that the USGA uses to determine whether a new ball is conforming to the already established maximum distance rule.

 

Test #1: Hit a modern ProV1, ProV1x with a modern driver, except the face of the driver would be COR of .76, which I think is what persimmon was. What would be the results at 125 mph, 120mph, 110mph, 100mph and 90 mph? This would tell us what the real effect of higher COR is at different player abilities.

 

Test #2: Hit a modern driver with a ProV1, and a Titleist Tour Professional from 1997. Do that at 120 mph club head speed. What is the difference in distance?

 

If we knew the results of these tests, we would have a better idea of the scope of the argument.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

totally false. i didn't get involved in golf until 2007, already firmly in the bomb-and-gouge era.

 

i don't actually support a regulation change whereas a 12 hole 2500yd golf course would be "big enough" for a complete test of the game because that would be the same modification of current golf courses i'm against.

 

 

lol me too... 38 here and started playing in 2014.....i did work at a private club from 1995-2000 on the maintenance staff .....so was around the game... but being a lets say " less than rich "kid at the time it seemed out of reach in a way ... Hindsight i think that was not true..but it seemed true at the time. I did however play many sports very well... and was offered a full ride to go to school running track...through a series of events i passed that up.... got married started a business and fast forward to 2014 and for some reason i pulled out my mismatched set of clubs from the lost and found of the where i used to work....... and then i found this place.... never had a handicap over 5 ....and truly thought all people played against par...didnt know of the handicap system before joining my club .

 

 

said all that to say this..... Call me snobish , or stuck in my "golden years "if you like ... But it just isnt true... my golden years are only 4years old.... im around 12 in golf years... I am however a lover of history and i think the best way to see where we are now is to study the past... as for snobbish... lol whatever... i can curl your nose hair with the story of my roots.. and how long ive attended to my self...But i wont... I will just say that i worked my way into playing this game and belonging to a club ... Not once did it cross my mind to change the game or the club to suit myself....I grew the game by adding myself and now my 9 year old... Its from this place that it irks me to no end when the "why cant i play my loud music and get drunk on the course" crowd screams " grow the game"....

 

Back to the point.... Im coming from a place that is genuine.. I hit the ball a long way... and i see guys blowing courses up at the High tier am level.... last year in our county AM an ex App state player shot -24 for 3 days on a 7200 yard track.... I see all sides of this ..or at least try to .. But i dont think some get what is happening with the driver/ launch monitors and the ball.....

 

anyway im tired now ..lol main point is stop pretending that anyone wanting a roll back is an old fart...has days gone by tendencies, or is a snob born of blue blood....

 

Just as an aside, I just played in South Carolina two weeks ago. I was in Charleston for a bachelor party and did a side mission to Kiawah Ocean Course because, why not? Holy hell! Great course, and I hit it so much farther than I do on the west coast. I was seriously carrying it as far as the roll out in SoCal. It was at least a club shorter on the approaches. I wish I could play there all the time, just for my ego. You guys who play out there are truly blessed.

 

 

Absolutely. Kiawah is worth it for sure. And yes. South Carolina plus North Carolina is the golf capital of the US. I don't care what Florida says. We have more diverse courses and some great hidden gems you've never heard of.

 

 

Side note. If you are ever out this way again pm me. I have a little pull with a customer who is a member from harbor town and couple other Hilton Head area courses. I can get us on.

 

Thanks, bro. Will do. That is very generous. Cheers!

[clevited]

totally false. i didn't get involved in golf until 2007, already firmly in the bomb-and-gouge era.

 

i don't actually support a regulation change whereas a 12 hole 2500yd golf course would be "big enough" for a complete test of the game because that would be the same modification of current golf courses i'm against.

 

 

lol me too... 38 here and started playing in 2014.....i did work at a private club from 1995-2000 on the maintenance staff .....so was around the game... but being a lets say " less than rich "kid at the time it seemed out of reach in a way ... Hindsight i think that was not true..but it seemed true at the time. I did however play many sports very well... and was offered a full ride to go to school running track...through a series of events i passed that up.... got married started a business and fast forward to 2014 and for some reason i pulled out my mismatched set of clubs from the lost and found of the where i used to work....... and then i found this place.... never had a handicap over 5 ....and truly thought all people played against par...didnt know of the handicap system before joining my club .

 

 

said all that to say this..... Call me snobish , or stuck in my "golden years "if you like ... But it just isnt true... my golden years are only 4years old.... im around 12 in golf years... I am however a lover of history and i think the best way to see where we are now is to study the past... as for snobbish... lol whatever... i can curl your nose hair with the story of my roots.. and how long ive attended to my self...But i wont... I will just say that i worked my way into playing this game and belonging to a club ... Not once did it cross my mind to change the game or the club to suit myself....I grew the game by adding myself and now my 9 year old... Its from this place that it irks me to no end when the "why cant i play my loud music and get drunk on the course" crowd screams " grow the game"....

 

Back to the point.... Im coming from a place that is genuine.. I hit the ball a long way... and i see guys blowing courses up at the High tier am level.... last year in our county AM an ex App state player shot -24 for 3 days on a 7200 yard track.... I see all sides of this ..or at least try to .. But i dont think some get what is happening with the driver/ launch monitors and the ball.....

 

anyway im tired now ..lol main point is stop pretending that anyone wanting a roll back is an old fart...has days gone by tendencies, or is a snob born of blue blood....

 

To the bolded portion, I would just say very plainly, you get treated how you act and treat others. I haven't read all of your posts but that goes for everyone on forums, certainly including myself. In text form of conversation, I find one has to be really careful of wording if you don't want to be "gotten wrong".

 

Not really worried about being gotten wrong . Just discrediting the assertion that was put out.

 

 

And also add that what you say above goes for you as well. And a good bit of slack has been left in the rope for you since you are new. Running around telling folks how snobbish they are etc isn’t the best way to make pals. ....

 

I argue with a couple here ( north butte etc). But they know I mean no harm. And they give as good as they get without crossing the line. So don’t read our posts And think we are mortal enemies. We aren’t.

 

I already stated it goes for me too. I tell it like it is, if you were hurt by it, well I am sorry. I would still asert to not act like it then. Just because you have been on here a long time and a handful of people know you for you, doesn't mean the majority reading this forum does. You still represent golf with how you act at what you say. I will leave it at that, like I said, I am sorry if my calling people out for acting a certain way hurt your feelings. No sarcasm, serious.

[rangersgoalie]

Thanks

But there is a problem. Golf is expensive though it always has been for the most part in our country

It takes a long time

Water is becoming a serious issue

And the business of golf is having a lot of issues, which does impact even those that don’t care

 

Municipalities cannot get away with losing money on a game with sketchy optics to provide a cheap alternative

Land costs employee costs and water costs have seriously tightened the profit potential for many small community courses

Wealthy people can join expensive places and play simply paying the freight for their entertainment

Like other sports golf has become about competing and hopefully helping get in to a college rather than playing with your buds for junior golfers

 

Much like any political or religious debate though, sometimes the loudest misrepresent the battle stats

 

Shackelford is a great example. He is passionate about the damage tour pros distance is doing to the classic courses he cares so much about. But he often derides and dismisses the players part in the increase through training, and learning to better launch shots to their maximum potential and Simply screams the ball the ball! While making fun of core workouts or any fitness element he dismisses. So a bright passionate advocate makes an emotional outburst presentation dismissive of what others may think. So the discussion unravels

 

When Mr Nicklaus first started talking about a tournament ball. 1) it was a long time before the prov1

2) some people rolled their eyes

3) as an architect back then, he saw design through his games eyes. High/long/fade. His courses were one dimensional to many andbrutal for the average golfer. Many thought he saw this argument on the ball through his own eyes as well. His equipment and ball business and too many players able to match his physical abilities (certainly no many matching the mental). So as he battles on he joins an illustrious list of max Behr, Alastair Mackenzie, Ross Bobby jones and now Jack and Tiger who believe we need to watch the distance

 

Not in any way saying these men in particular are being selfish but very often the loudest or also able to monetize something if it goes their way. Titleist and forced retooling to Jack and remodeling

 

Good luck fixing this without a huge blowback. Sadly

[OrangeGravy]

Studies were done a couple years after the groove rule change. It showed no discernible difference in how Tour players played off the tee or their scoring when playing with wedges from the rough.

 

The rule changed forced everyone to (eventually) get new, conforming wedges and it failed totally at affecting wedge play among elite players, which was the justification.

 

At the time, the blowhards at USGA proclaimed that it would combat "Bomb and Gouge" by forcing players to pay a price for missing fairways or missing greens. They would be less able to count on controlling the ball out of the rough and would therefore place a greater premium on "accuracy" over distance.

 

As most of us could have predicted, it had no such effect.

 

The groove rule was stupid don't get me wrong. It was pointless, but it didn't force anyone not getting free clubs to get new wedges ( unless you're a competitive am). This always comes up on these forums. " Are the grooves conforming"...Who cares. It doesn't affect regular golfers. Why do golfers have such a strong urge to pretend to be pro's? What do people get out of that? I don't think there is a hobby or activity that has more posers in it than golf. It astounds me really.

 

It's not so much that it forced anyone to buy new clubs. It had a negative effect on the every day golfers game and didn't do what they set out to accomplish on the pro level. I still have a set of old wedges that I bring out for the hell of it. There is a huge difference in bite from what I can tell. I carry a single digit handicap. For those that are in the teens, it would be even more significant. Couple that with the fact that major manufacturers don't produce non-conforming wedges, then they have no option when it comes time to replace the wedges.

 

How so? Every day golfers aren't consistent enough for something like grooves to change their game

[bladehunter]

totally false. i didn't get involved in golf until 2007, already firmly in the bomb-and-gouge era.

 

i don't actually support a regulation change whereas a 12 hole 2500yd golf course would be "big enough" for a complete test of the game because that would be the same modification of current golf courses i'm against.

 

 

lol me too... 38 here and started playing in 2014.....i did work at a private club from 1995-2000 on the maintenance staff .....so was around the game... but being a lets say " less than rich "kid at the time it seemed out of reach in a way ... Hindsight i think that was not true..but it seemed true at the time. I did however play many sports very well... and was offered a full ride to go to school running track...through a series of events i passed that up.... got married started a business and fast forward to 2014 and for some reason i pulled out my mismatched set of clubs from the lost and found of the where i used to work....... and then i found this place.... never had a handicap over 5 ....and truly thought all people played against par...didnt know of the handicap system before joining my club .

 

 

said all that to say this..... Call me snobish , or stuck in my "golden years "if you like ... But it just isnt true... my golden years are only 4years old.... im around 12 in golf years... I am however a lover of history and i think the best way to see where we are now is to study the past... as for snobbish... lol whatever... i can curl your nose hair with the story of my roots.. and how long ive attended to my self...But i wont... I will just say that i worked my way into playing this game and belonging to a club ... Not once did it cross my mind to change the game or the club to suit myself....I grew the game by adding myself and now my 9 year old... Its from this place that it irks me to no end when the "why cant i play my loud music and get drunk on the course" crowd screams " grow the game"....

 

Back to the point.... Im coming from a place that is genuine.. I hit the ball a long way... and i see guys blowing courses up at the High tier am level.... last year in our county AM an ex App state player shot -24 for 3 days on a 7200 yard track.... I see all sides of this ..or at least try to .. But i dont think some get what is happening with the driver/ launch monitors and the ball.....

 

anyway im tired now ..lol main point is stop pretending that anyone wanting a roll back is an old fart...has days gone by tendencies, or is a snob born of blue blood....

 

To the bolded portion, I would just say very plainly, you get treated how you act and treat others. I haven't read all of your posts but that goes for everyone on forums, certainly including myself. In text form of conversation, I find one has to be really careful of wording if you don't want to be "gotten wrong".

 

Not really worried about being gotten wrong . Just discrediting the assertion that was put out.

 

 

And also add that what you say above goes for you as well. And a good bit of slack has been left in the rope for you since you are new. Running around telling folks how snobbish they are etc isn’t the best way to make pals. ....

 

I argue with a couple here ( north butte etc). But they know I mean no harm. And they give as good as they get without crossing the line. So don’t read our posts And think we are mortal enemies. We aren’t.

 

I already stated it goes for me too. I tell it like it is, if you were hurt by it, well I am sorry. I would still asert to not act like it then. Just because you have been on here a long time and a handful of people know you for you, doesn't mean the majority reading this forum does. You still represent golf with how you act at what you say. I will leave it at that, like I said, I am sorry if my calling people out for acting a certain way hurt your feelings. No sarcasm, serious.

 

 

Sure. And I take that point to heart. Not trying to preach so I’ll stop. Lol. No hard feelings this way either. I’m certain anyone in this thread could play together and be pals. No doubt. We all just get carried away and I get that and am likely most guilty of that here.

[Sean2]

My rookie year was a difficult season.

New course every week, new cities. Where to eat

What are the perfect lines off the tee? Where is a good spots to miss around the greens. What hole location might be used? And where does the normal wind come from and worse how different does it play when the wind changes from the day of. Unpracticed round? All of the veranda have this information on almost every course over many years of experience in all conditions

 

Add bifurcation. And I'd assume at web.com levels as welll

 

Now I'm a rookie playing a completely different ball or equipment, playing against guys who have used it for however long the rule has been in place and they know the reactions backwards and forwards. I couldn't imagine the disadvantage already making a rookie year difficult.

 

If there is a rollback and it is not across the board, there is a level that will be screwed in an already difficult world to break in to. I do understand the reasons. And believe IF those reasons are enough, it should be across the board

 

I think it's interesting that some want to bring back the better players and stop the pretty normal 2-3 yards per mph graph as long as it doesn't affect THEIR bottom line in the game whatever that is. Just make the other guys change everything.

 

I asked earlier if there is bifurcation what ball will aspiring junior's play? At AJGA tournaments, state ams, at colleges and universities?

[clevited]

Passion for the game. Its a good thing and a bad thing but its also the one thing we all have in common and its why we are here.

[tnord]

should be the tournament ball.

[rawdog]

It sure would be nice to know what we are arguing about.

 

I would love to see two tests - both done at the 120 mph swing speed that the USGA uses to determine whether a new ball is conforming to the already established maximum distance rule.

 

Test #1: Hit a modern ProV1, ProV1x with a modern driver, except the face of the driver would be COR of .76, which I think is what persimmon was. What would be the results at 125 mph, 120mph, 110mph, 100mph and 90 mph? This would tell us what the real effect of higher COR is at different player abilities.

 

Test #2: Hit a modern driver with a ProV1, and a Titleist Tour Professional from 1997. Do that at 120 mph club head speed. What is the difference in distance?

 

If we knew the results of these tests, we would have a better idea of the scope of the argument.

 

Smash factors have been going up over the years not necessarily because max COR itself has increased, but because COR on off center hits has improved as well.

 

Look at PGA Tour smash factor stats from '07 to '17. They're significantly higher. Particularly the top quintile of of smash factors.

 

Not sure you'd be able to reasonably simulate all the possible miss-hits.

[mahonie]

My rookie year was a difficult season.

New course every week, new cities. Where to eat

What are the perfect lines off the tee? Where is a good spots to miss around the greens. What hole location might be used? And where does the normal wind come from and worse how different does it play when the wind changes from the day of. Unpracticed round? All of the veranda have this information on almost every course over many years of experience in all conditions

 

Add bifurcation. And I'd assume at web.com levels as welll

 

Now I'm a rookie playing a completely different ball or equipment, playing against guys who have used it for however long the rule has been in place and they know the reactions backwards and forwards. I couldn't imagine the disadvantage already making a rookie year difficult.

 

If there is a rollback and it is not across the board, there is a level that will be screwed in an already difficult world to break in to. I do understand the reasons. And believe IF those reasons are enough, it should be across the board

 

I think it's interesting that some want to bring back the better players and stop the pretty normal 2-3 yards per mph graph as long as it doesn't affect THEIR bottom line in the game whatever that is. Just make the other guys change everything.

 

I asked earlier if there is bifurcation what ball will aspiring junior's play? At AJGA tournaments, state ams, at colleges and universities?

 

Do we not already have bifurcation if the weekend hacker plays a Trusoft and the Pro is playing Pro V?

[rawdog]

My rookie year was a difficult season.

New course every week, new cities. Where to eat

What are the perfect lines off the tee? Where is a good spots to miss around the greens. What hole location might be used? And where does the normal wind come from and worse how different does it play when the wind changes from the day of. Unpracticed round? All of the veranda have this information on almost every course over many years of experience in all conditions

 

Add bifurcation. And I'd assume at web.com levels as welll

 

Now I'm a rookie playing a completely different ball or equipment, playing against guys who have used it for however long the rule has been in place and they know the reactions backwards and forwards. I couldn't imagine the disadvantage already making a rookie year difficult.

 

If there is a rollback and it is not across the board, there is a level that will be screwed in an already difficult world to break in to. I do understand the reasons. And believe IF those reasons are enough, it should be across the board

 

I think it's interesting that some want to bring back the better players and stop the pretty normal 2-3 yards per mph graph as long as it doesn't affect THEIR bottom line in the game whatever that is. Just make the other guys change everything.

 

I asked earlier if there is bifurcation what ball will aspiring junior's play? At AJGA tournaments, state ams, at colleges and universities?

 

Do we not already have bifurcation if the weekend hacker plays a Trusoft and the Pro is playing Pro V?

 

No. The equipment is different but they conform to the same set of rules. We discussed this last page.

[rangersgoalie]

My rookie year was a difficult season.

New course every week, new cities. Where to eat

What are the perfect lines off the tee? Where is a good spots to miss around the greens. What hole location might be used? And where does the normal wind come from and worse how different does it play when the wind changes from the day of. Unpracticed round? All of the veranda have this information on almost every course over many years of experience in all conditions

 

Add bifurcation. And I'd assume at web.com levels as welll

 

Now I'm a rookie playing a completely different ball or equipment, playing against guys who have used it for however long the rule has been in place and they know the reactions backwards and forwards. I couldn't imagine the disadvantage already making a rookie year difficult.

 

If there is a rollback and it is not across the board, there is a level that will be screwed in an already difficult world to break in to. I do understand the reasons. And believe IF those reasons are enough, it should be across the board

 

I think it's interesting that some want to bring back the better players and stop the pretty normal 2-3 yards per mph graph as long as it doesn't affect THEIR bottom line in the game whatever that is. Just make the other guys change everything.

 

I asked earlier if there is bifurcation what ball will aspiring junior's play? At AJGA tournaments, state ams, at colleges and universities?

 

Do we not already have bifurcation if the weekend hacker plays a Trusoft and the Pro is playing Pro V?

 

By choosing a ball for themselves that fits their plans? No

At our club, a huge number play prov1 or x.

 

My rookie year was a difficult season.

New course every week, new cities. Where to eat

What are the perfect lines off the tee? Where is a good spots to miss around the greens. What hole location might be used? And where does the normal wind come from and worse how different does it play when the wind changes from the day of. Unpracticed round? All of the veranda have this information on almost every course over many years of experience in all conditions

 

Add bifurcation. And I'd assume at web.com levels as welll

 

Now I'm a rookie playing a completely different ball or equipment, playing against guys who have used it for however long the rule has been in place and they know the reactions backwards and forwards. I couldn't imagine the disadvantage already making a rookie year difficult.

 

If there is a rollback and it is not across the board, there is a level that will be screwed in an already difficult world to break in to. I do understand the reasons. And believe IF those reasons are enough, it should be across the board

 

I think it's interesting that some want to bring back the better players and stop the pretty normal 2-3 yards per mph graph as long as it doesn't affect THEIR bottom line in the game whatever that is. Just make the other guys change everything.

 

I asked earlier if there is bifurcation what ball will aspiring junior's play? At AJGA tournaments, state ams, at colleges and universities?

 

Do we not already have bifurcation if the weekend hacker plays a Trusoft and the Pro is playing Pro V?

 

By choosing a ball for themselves that fits their plans? No

At our club, a huge number play prov1 or x.

 

No idea how I did that. On phone sorry all

[OrangeGravy]

Has there at anytime in golf's history been an attempt to use a common ball like most other sports? Golf is the only sport that I know of that doesn't use a common ball. It seems some of Golf's problems could have been avoided if a common ball was adopted long ago. It would make any necessary changes to the game thereafter easier.

 

This debate kind of contains the larger issue of Golf's health in general. Golf is at a disadvantage in modern times. Life keeps getting faster and faster. Everyone wants things now. Attention spans are shorter and Golf has no real way to fit or morph into this new world without turning into something that barely resembles what it started as ( see Top Golf ). Everything in the game trickles down from the tour and tour golf really has no choice but to chase TV dollars. It feels to me like the only way to have a chance at staying relevant at the tour level is to keep turning it into spectacle. There's no doubt in my mind that golf could be way more popular on TV to the general viewer if it totally whored itself out and starting coming up with stunts that most actual golfers would despise. To me this rollback debate kind of has the same feel. People FOR don't like the direction golf in general has been going and people against have no problem with the current trajectory of the game.

 

I personally don't watch as much golf as I used to and couldn't care less if the tour disappeared tomorrow.

[tnord]

was just listening to Rory talk about the golf ball, golf courses etc. he acknowledged that the current direction is unworkable, and that long hitters will still maintain an advantage even with "an 80% ball." he said it would take him two weeks to dial in a new tournament ball.

 

No Laying Up podcast #98

https://nolayingup.com/2017/09/17/nlu-podcast-episode-98-rory-mcilroy-part/