ANGC Course Changes ? Updated for 2021 Masters

[rangersgoalie]

Rangersgoalie ... how many times did you play in the Masters? Would love more feedback on ANGC from a former tour player

 

I think it is funny that there is a lot of work historically on 13 and 15 and they are the exciting finishing holes down the stretch

 

Five is already a pig and they keep making a long uphiller even harder

 

Perhaps the work needs to focus elsewhere as others have said ...

 

Let's change the bunker edging to start .... let's get some AM traps that have gone AWOL back in play at today's yardages (280-325 out)

 

 

Zero.......haha. Missed getting in by about $4,000 one time.....

Mostly, I’m an architecture junky, and the old photos of Augusta seem to show a sadly changed course in many spots

[delmer]

Rangersgoalie ... how many times did you play in the Masters? Would love more feedback on ANGC from a former tour player

 

I think it is funny that there is a lot of work historically on 13 and 15 and they are the exciting finishing holes down the stretch

 

Five is already a pig and they keep making a long uphiller even harder

 

Perhaps the work needs to focus elsewhere as others have said ...

 

Let's change the bunker edging to start .... let's get some AM traps that have gone AWOL back in play at today's yardages (280-325 out)

 

Do people really think the ragged edges on the bunkers would look good or change playability there? My home course has fescue on a lot of the edges of bunkers but it's a much more natural looking and feeling course than Augusta is. Part of the charm of Augusta is it is something that looks too good to be true so adding some nasty looking edges to the bunkers won't really affect play but will look totally out of place.

 

I think it looks cool at places like Merion and Pine Valley but it just wouldn't seem right to throw unmaintained fescue bunker lips on a course that rakes the pine straw after every round.

[rangersgoalie]

Rangersgoalie ... how many times did you play in the Masters? Would love more feedback on ANGC from a former tour player

 

I think it is funny that there is a lot of work historically on 13 and 15 and they are the exciting finishing holes down the stretch

 

Five is already a pig and they keep making a long uphiller even harder

 

Perhaps the work needs to focus elsewhere as others have said ...

 

Let's change the bunker edging to start .... let's get some AM traps that have gone AWOL back in play at today's yardages (280-325 out)

 

Do people really think the ragged edges on the bunkers would look good or change playability there? My home course has fescue on a lot of the edges of bunkers but it's a much more natural looking and feeling course than Augusta is. Part of the charm of Augusta is it is something that looks too good to be true so adding some nasty looking edges to the bunkers won't really affect play but will look totally out of place.

 

I think it looks cool at places like Merion and Pine Valley but it just wouldn't seem right to throw unmaintained fescue bunker lips on a course that rakes the pine straw after every round.

 

Rangersgoalie ... how many times did you play in the Masters? Would love more feedback on ANGC from a former tour player

 

I think it is funny that there is a lot of work historically on 13 and 15 and they are the exciting finishing holes down the stretch

 

Five is already a pig and they keep making a long uphiller even harder

 

Perhaps the work needs to focus elsewhere as others have said ...

 

Let's change the bunker edging to start .... let's get some AM traps that have gone AWOL back in play at today's yardages (280-325 out)

 

Do people really think the ragged edges on the bunkers would look good or change playability there? My home course has fescue on a lot of the edges of bunkers but it's a much more natural looking and feeling course than Augusta is. Part of the charm of Augusta is it is something that looks too good to be true so adding some nasty looking edges to the bunkers won't really affect play but will look totally out of place.

 

I think it looks cool at places like Merion and Pine Valley but it just wouldn't seem right to throw unmaintained fescue bunker lips on a course that rakes the pine straw after every round.

 

For me, I’m talking more about a style matching the bunker on numer10. The beautiful flow to that versus the white bowls looks much better to me

 

https://goo.gl/images/qZmG3W

[Golfer4Life]

Are they still using Eminent Domain to continue to steal property on the cheap and chasing people and businesses out of the area?

 

I used to live there, seen it all.

 

ANGC has no eminent domain power.

 

That's kind of what I was thinking. Why would ANGC have eminent domain power?

 

Not to mention that "stealing property on the cheap" is most likely not close to being accurate.

 

Well, I lived there so I'm confident about what I said. When you have the city council and the fat cat members of Augusta National on people's backs, anything is possible.

 

Plenty of articles on the web with both sides of the issue.

 

Many say the ugly spirit of Jones remains lingering in Augusta, I'm not one of those, but many locals feel that way.

[delmer]

Rangersgoalie ... how many times did you play in the Masters? Would love more feedback on ANGC from a former tour player

 

I think it is funny that there is a lot of work historically on 13 and 15 and they are the exciting finishing holes down the stretch

 

Five is already a pig and they keep making a long uphiller even harder

 

Perhaps the work needs to focus elsewhere as others have said ...

 

Let's change the bunker edging to start .... let's get some AM traps that have gone AWOL back in play at today's yardages (280-325 out)

 

Do people really think the ragged edges on the bunkers would look good or change playability there? My home course has fescue on a lot of the edges of bunkers but it's a much more natural looking and feeling course than Augusta is. Part of the charm of Augusta is it is something that looks too good to be true so adding some nasty looking edges to the bunkers won't really affect play but will look totally out of place.

 

I think it looks cool at places like Merion and Pine Valley but it just wouldn't seem right to throw unmaintained fescue bunker lips on a course that rakes the pine straw after every round.

 

Rangersgoalie ... how many times did you play in the Masters? Would love more feedback on ANGC from a former tour player

 

I think it is funny that there is a lot of work historically on 13 and 15 and they are the exciting finishing holes down the stretch

 

Five is already a pig and they keep making a long uphiller even harder

 

Perhaps the work needs to focus elsewhere as others have said ...

 

Let's change the bunker edging to start .... let's get some AM traps that have gone AWOL back in play at today's yardages (280-325 out)

 

Do people really think the ragged edges on the bunkers would look good or change playability there? My home course has fescue on a lot of the edges of bunkers but it's a much more natural looking and feeling course than Augusta is. Part of the charm of Augusta is it is something that looks too good to be true so adding some nasty looking edges to the bunkers won't really affect play but will look totally out of place.

 

I think it looks cool at places like Merion and Pine Valley but it just wouldn't seem right to throw unmaintained fescue bunker lips on a course that rakes the pine straw after every round.

 

For me, I'm talking more about a style matching the bunker on numer10. The beautiful flow to that versus the white bowls looks much better to me

 

https://goo.gl/images/qZmG3W

 

It looks unmaintained which would just look totally out of place there.

 

Like I said I'm a big fan of the look at the right course but on a course where everything is placed and manicured perfectly it just doesn't look right.

[delmer]

Are they still using Eminent Domain to continue to steal property on the cheap and chasing people and businesses out of the area?

 

I used to live there, seen it all.

 

ANGC has no eminent domain power.

 

That's kind of what I was thinking. Why would ANGC have eminent domain power?

 

Not to mention that "stealing property on the cheap" is most likely not close to being accurate.

 

Well, I lived there so I'm confident about what I said. When you have the city council and the fat cat members of Augusta National on people's backs, anything is possible.

 

Plenty of articles on the web with both sides of the issue.

 

Many say the ugly spirit of Jones remains lingering in Augusta, I'm not one of those, but many locals feel that way.

 

According to Golf Digest from 1990-2014 they spent $55M on 100 acres of land. I would love to know where else in Georgia land is worth $550K/acre.

 

They also just bought a strip mall for $20M. I'm sure the person who owned that is crying about how they got ripped off.

 

And if they've got the government in their pocket like you say why is there two homes who won't sell to them that is holding up their plans? If things are as you say wouldn't they just pull ED on them?

[elwhippy]

I think people are missing a point. ANGC is above all other clubs in wealth. It is a business and is totally focused on one week of the year. Its relentless high ranking is due to it being hardly played. It is a course first and club second. A friend played there about five years ago and said it was a weird experience with members hardly acknowledging each other and the course being empty.

[Roadking2003]

Rangersgoalie ... how many times did you play in the Masters? Would love more feedback on ANGC from a former tour player

 

I think it is funny that there is a lot of work historically on 13 and 15 and they are the exciting finishing holes down the stretch

 

Five is already a pig and they keep making a long uphiller even harder

 

Perhaps the work needs to focus elsewhere as others have said ...

 

Let's change the bunker edging to start .... let's get some AM traps that have gone AWOL back in play at today's yardages (280-325 out)

 

Do people really think the ragged edges on the bunkers would look good or change playability there? My home course has fescue on a lot of the edges of bunkers but it's a much more natural looking and feeling course than Augusta is. Part of the charm of Augusta is it is something that looks too good to be true so adding some nasty looking edges to the bunkers won't really affect play but will look totally out of place.

 

I think it looks cool at places like Merion and Pine Valley but it just wouldn't seem right to throw unmaintained fescue bunker lips on a course that rakes the pine straw after every round.

 

I agree. Ragged edges on bunkers would not make the course tougher and would not look good at all.

[Roadking2003]

A friend played there about five years ago and said it was a weird experience with members hardly acknowledging each other and the course being empty.

 

I played there about six years ago and it was a wonderful experience. We talked with members (including Frank Broyles) and had one of the best days of my life. Nothing was weird.

[delmer]

A friend played there about five years ago and said it was a weird experience with members hardly acknowledging each other and the course being empty.

 

I played there about six years ago and it was a wonderful experience. We talked with members (including Frank Broyles) and had one of the best days of my life. Nothing was weird.

 

I've heard the same. A friend of mine is a member at Pine Valley and one of the guys in his game is also a member at Augusta. From how he's described it it obviously isn't your run of the mill play it 5 days a week club but rather it is everyone's non-primary club. I know there aren't a ton of rounds played but it's not like some secret society where nobody ever plays the course.

[North Texas]

Regarding the par 5's, this quote from Fred Ridley probably gives us a clue on what they are thinking about doing.

 

We will always do what’s necessary to maintain the integrity of our golf course,” Ridley said. “We are intent on making sure that we maintain the design philosophy the Mr. (Bobby) Jones and Alister MacKenzie devised,” Ridley said. “There’s a great quote from Bobby Jones dealing specifically with the 13th hole, which has been lengthened over time. He said the decision to go for the green in two should be a momentous one. “And I would have to say that our observation of these great players hitting middle and even short irons into that hole is not a momentous one.

[delmer]

Regarding the par 5's, this quote from Fred Ridley probably gives us a clue on what they are thinking about doing.

 

We will always do what’s necessary to maintain the integrity of our golf course,” Ridley said. “We are intent on making sure that we maintain the design philosophy the Mr. (Bobby) Jones and Alister MacKenzie devised,” Ridley said. “There’s a great quote from Bobby Jones dealing specifically with the 13th hole, which has been lengthened over time. He said the decision to go for the green in two should be a momentous one. “And I would have to say that our observation of these great players hitting middle and even short irons into that hole is not a momentous one.

 

 

Makes sense. I usually love to see a risk reward drivable par 4 on a course but Augusta kind of has, well hard, two of them on the back nine only they are par 5's. In the past they have always been fairly easy drives and then the hole turned into a short risk reward par 4. Now the drive is still easy on both of them but the second shot turns into a par 3 for many of the guys.

 

The tricky spot is trying to find the length where you will make the second shot a tough decision for most of the field. If you make it a tough decision for Bubba or DJ it'll be too long for most of the guys to even think about so essentially it'll turn into an easy decision.

 

The hard part about designing a course today is that if you design it to try to combat the long distances the elite few are hitting it you actually play into their hands because you'll eliminate all of the average hitters. This is why I wish more guys would play the RSM or even Mayakoba. Both of those courses neutralize power and we saw a good mix of bombers and average length guys with a chance to win.

 

So without adding an obscene amount of length to 13 and 15 how could they make that second shot a tougher decision for the bulk of the field?

[Roadking2003]

Regarding the par 5's, this quote from Fred Ridley probably gives us a clue on what they are thinking about doing.

 

We will always do what’s necessary to maintain the integrity of our golf course,” Ridley said. “We are intent on making sure that we maintain the design philosophy the Mr. (Bobby) Jones and Alister MacKenzie devised,” Ridley said. “There’s a great quote from Bobby Jones dealing specifically with the 13th hole, which has been lengthened over time. He said the decision to go for the green in two should be a momentous one. “And I would have to say that our observation of these great players hitting middle and even short irons into that hole is not a momentous one.

 

It was momentus for all the players who hit it into the water.....

[delmer]

Regarding the par 5's, this quote from Fred Ridley probably gives us a clue on what they are thinking about doing.

 

We will always do what’s necessary to maintain the integrity of our golf course,” Ridley said. “We are intent on making sure that we maintain the design philosophy the Mr. (Bobby) Jones and Alister MacKenzie devised,” Ridley said. “There’s a great quote from Bobby Jones dealing specifically with the 13th hole, which has been lengthened over time. He said the decision to go for the green in two should be a momentous one. “And I would have to say that our observation of these great players hitting middle and even short irons into that hole is not a momentous one.

 

It was momentus for all the players who hit it into the water.....

Probably the most momentous moment of the past several years came on the shortest hole on the course when Spieth hit it in the water so they don't need to make holes long to make them momentum swing holes.

[Roadking2003]

So without adding an obscene amount of length to 13 and 15 how could they make that second shot a tougher decision for the bulk of the field?

 

They could increase the risk and/or tighten the driving lanes.

 

On both holes they could increase the penalty for going long. There already is a penalty for short, but it's very easy to recover from long unless the pin is on the back.

[delmer]

So without adding an obscene amount of length to 13 and 15 how could they make that second shot a tougher decision for the bulk of the field?

 

They could increase the risk and/or tighten the driving lanes.

 

On both holes they could increase the penalty for going long. There already is a penalty for short, but it's very easy to recover from long unless the pin is on the back.

 

That would be great on 15. Make it so a long shot goes about 20 yards over the back but stays on the fairway. That would be an interesting shop with the lead on Sunday. a 25 yard shot that could come right back to you or go in the water short of the green if you don't hit a great shot.

 

Great idea. That would make guys think twice about going for 15 in two no matter how far they bomb it off the tee.

[BNGL]

In regards to 15 specifically that’s almost as perfect a hole I think there is. Yes it’s regarded as an “easy” hole, but I assure you it’s not. The beauty I have found in Augusta is that you always have to answer a challenge on every hole, and if you bail out and hit the easy tee shot you’ll have a more difficult approach, and vice versa. When I stand on the 15th tee I know it’s a birdie hole, I hit a ball that fades as it falls and 15 is the only hole that sets up for a fade from a righty. Even after a good drive I’ve got 200 plus, with an elevation drop of 20-30 feet? To a relatively small target, that we all know is significantly wider than it is deep. Short is dead, long is no bargain and it’s possible to find water long as well. Couple that with undulations it’s a tough ask, especially with a green jacket on the line (i would imagine). Oddly enough laying up isn’t a bargain either, then you’ll be playing off a downhill lie where you can easily spin it back or hit one that floats and bounces over the back.

 

I’m not saying it shouldn’t change, but I like the fact that 3 is very much in play while it can still come back to bite you if you don’t pull it off. That’s your last great chance at birdie, unless your Charl Schwartzel.

[delmer]

In regards to 15 specifically that's almost as perfect a hole I think there is. Yes it's regarded as an "easy" hole, but I assure you it's not. The beauty I have found in Augusta is that you always have to answer a challenge on every hole, and if you bail out and hit the easy tee shot you'll have a more difficult approach, and vice versa. When I stand on the 15th tee I know it's a birdie hole, I hit a ball that fades as it falls and 15 is the only hole that sets up for a fade from a righty. Even after a good drive I've got 200 plus, with an elevation drop of 20-30 feet? To a relatively small target, that we all know is significantly wider than it is deep. Short is dead, long is no bargain and it's possible to find water long as well. Couple that with undulations it's a tough ask, especially with a green jacket on the line (i would imagine). Oddly enough laying up isn't a bargain either, then you'll be playing off a downhill lie where you can easily spin it back or hit one that floats and bounces over the back.

 

I'm not saying it shouldn't change, but I like the fact that 3 is very much in play while it can still come back to bite you if you don't pull it off. That's your last great chance at birdie, unless your Charl Schwartzel.

 

I think what we're talking about is a reaction to them saying that want to make the decision on the second shot harder. They're not going to change the course due to your feeling but most of these guys don't think twice about a shot from 200 yards even if you might.

 

Short is obviously dead and long is close to dead. If you make long a tough 5 even the longest hitters will think twice about going for it in 2. Both 3 and 6 will be in play still if you make long tougher.

[BNGL]

In regards to 15 specifically that's almost as perfect a hole I think there is. Yes it's regarded as an "easy" hole, but I assure you it's not. The beauty I have found in Augusta is that you always have to answer a challenge on every hole, and if you bail out and hit the easy tee shot you'll have a more difficult approach, and vice versa. When I stand on the 15th tee I know it's a birdie hole, I hit a ball that fades as it falls and 15 is the only hole that sets up for a fade from a righty. Even after a good drive I've got 200 plus, with an elevation drop of 20-30 feet? To a relatively small target, that we all know is significantly wider than it is deep. Short is dead, long is no bargain and it's possible to find water long as well. Couple that with undulations it's a tough ask, especially with a green jacket on the line (i would imagine). Oddly enough laying up isn't a bargain either, then you'll be playing off a downhill lie where you can easily spin it back or hit one that floats and bounces over the back.

 

I'm not saying it shouldn't change, but I like the fact that 3 is very much in play while it can still come back to bite you if you don't pull it off. That's your last great chance at birdie, unless your Charl Schwartzel.

 

I think what we're talking about is a reaction to them saying that want to make the decision on the second shot harder. They're not going to change the course due to your feeling but most of these guys don't think twice about a shot from 200 yards even if you might.

 

Short is obviously dead and long is close to dead. If you make long a tough 5 even the longest hitters will think twice about going for it in 2. Both 3 and 6 will be in play still if you make long tougher.

 

I guarantee it they do...I’ve played there several times as a guest with a past champion and spoken to several others about the hole.

[delmer]

In regards to 15 specifically that's almost as perfect a hole I think there is. Yes it's regarded as an "easy" hole, but I assure you it's not. The beauty I have found in Augusta is that you always have to answer a challenge on every hole, and if you bail out and hit the easy tee shot you'll have a more difficult approach, and vice versa. When I stand on the 15th tee I know it's a birdie hole, I hit a ball that fades as it falls and 15 is the only hole that sets up for a fade from a righty. Even after a good drive I've got 200 plus, with an elevation drop of 20-30 feet? To a relatively small target, that we all know is significantly wider than it is deep. Short is dead, long is no bargain and it's possible to find water long as well. Couple that with undulations it's a tough ask, especially with a green jacket on the line (i would imagine). Oddly enough laying up isn't a bargain either, then you'll be playing off a downhill lie where you can easily spin it back or hit one that floats and bounces over the back.

 

I'm not saying it shouldn't change, but I like the fact that 3 is very much in play while it can still come back to bite you if you don't pull it off. That's your last great chance at birdie, unless your Charl Schwartzel.

 

I think what we're talking about is a reaction to them saying that want to make the decision on the second shot harder. They're not going to change the course due to your feeling but most of these guys don't think twice about a shot from 200 yards even if you might.

 

Short is obviously dead and long is close to dead. If you make long a tough 5 even the longest hitters will think twice about going for it in 2. Both 3 and 6 will be in play still if you make long tougher.

 

I guarantee it they do...I've played there several times as a guest with a past champion and spoken to several others about the hole.

 

Well they think about it but almost everyone goes for it in two so the fear factor isn't there as it stands.

 

I don't have the luxury of playing there like you do but I can watch it on TV and watch almost everyone go for it in two which is what they're discussing.

 

I think you're looking at 3 or 6 being in play but Fred Ridley is talking about what is going through the minds of people standing over their second shot.

[BNGL]

In regards to 15 specifically that's almost as perfect a hole I think there is. Yes it's regarded as an "easy" hole, but I assure you it's not. The beauty I have found in Augusta is that you always have to answer a challenge on every hole, and if you bail out and hit the easy tee shot you'll have a more difficult approach, and vice versa. When I stand on the 15th tee I know it's a birdie hole, I hit a ball that fades as it falls and 15 is the only hole that sets up for a fade from a righty. Even after a good drive I've got 200 plus, with an elevation drop of 20-30 feet? To a relatively small target, that we all know is significantly wider than it is deep. Short is dead, long is no bargain and it's possible to find water long as well. Couple that with undulations it's a tough ask, especially with a green jacket on the line (i would imagine). Oddly enough laying up isn't a bargain either, then you'll be playing off a downhill lie where you can easily spin it back or hit one that floats and bounces over the back.

 

I'm not saying it shouldn't change, but I like the fact that 3 is very much in play while it can still come back to bite you if you don't pull it off. That's your last great chance at birdie, unless your Charl Schwartzel.

 

I think what we're talking about is a reaction to them saying that want to make the decision on the second shot harder. They're not going to change the course due to your feeling but most of these guys don't think twice about a shot from 200 yards even if you might.

 

Short is obviously dead and long is close to dead. If you make long a tough 5 even the longest hitters will think twice about going for it in 2. Both 3 and 6 will be in play still if you make long tougher.

 

I guarantee it they do...I've played there several times as a guest with a past champion and spoken to several others about the hole.

 

Well they think about it but almost everyone goes for it in two so the fear factor isn't there as it stands.

 

I don't have the luxury of playing there like you do but I can watch it on TV and watch almost everyone go for it in two which is what they're discussing.

 

I think you're looking at 3 or 6 being in play but Fred Ridley is talking about what is going through the minds of people standing over their second shot.

 

I agree with you there’s not much “fear” but I think that gets more into the par is a number thing than a course design issue. Want more pros to lay up? Make it a par 4, I’d wager my house that a majority would lay up. And offer the same stakes that if it becomes more than a 225 shot more would layup (not more than a par 4, but far more than now). And too me that robs the excitement out of the hole and diminishes the experience of the masters...for me personally. While I have no doubt, absolutely none, about Fred’s leadership and vision for ANGC moving forward (had the opportunity to meet him at Seminole a few years ago) they’ll make the right decision whatever it ends up being, I don’t have to agree with length being added to 15 if that’s what is being discussed or any other changes. ANGC is a special place that I initially thought, yeah right it’s not that great...it is. Everything is absolutely perfect from the time you step on the property, to the time you leave it.

[cardoustie]

I think raggedy is not the right word

 

I want more contouring and not perfect running long lines 2 feet from the greens edge

[Roadking2003]

In regards to 15 specifically that's almost as perfect a hole I think there is. Yes it's regarded as an "easy" hole, but I assure you it's not. The beauty I have found in Augusta is that you always have to answer a challenge on every hole, and if you bail out and hit the easy tee shot you'll have a more difficult approach, and vice versa. When I stand on the 15th tee I know it's a birdie hole, I hit a ball that fades as it falls and 15 is the only hole that sets up for a fade from a righty. Even after a good drive I've got 200 plus, with an elevation drop of 20-30 feet? To a relatively small target, that we all know is significantly wider than it is deep. Short is dead, long is no bargain and it's possible to find water long as well. Couple that with undulations it's a tough ask, especially with a green jacket on the line (i would imagine). Oddly enough laying up isn't a bargain either, then you'll be playing off a downhill lie where you can easily spin it back or hit one that floats and bounces over the back.

 

I'm not saying it shouldn't change, but I like the fact that 3 is very much in play while it can still come back to bite you if you don't pull it off. That's your last great chance at birdie, unless your Charl Schwartzel.

 

I agree. Hitting to that shallow green with a false front from 200 yards is no bargain. They could make it even harder by moving the pond behind the green a little closer.

[Shilgy]

I've never played they're so I'll ask BNGL, if they made the second on 15 to"strike fear" as suggested wouldn't many players bail right into the bunker? There is more room on that side and the chip/pitch would be easier, and safer, than the downhill lie third shot if they lay up.

 

PS not every hole needs to be made more difficult. This hole, and 13, really are par 4.5 and to make them more difficult destroys that.

[BNGL]

I've never played they're so I'll ask BNGL, if they made the second on 15 to"strike fear" as suggested wouldn't many players bail right into the bunker? There is more room on that side and the chip/pitch would be easier, and safer, than the downhill lie third shot if they lay up.

 

PS not every hole needs to be made more difficult. This hole, and 13, really are par 4.5 and to make them more difficult destroys that.

 

You and Ben Hogan think of ANGC the exact same way...well done!!!! (No joke). That bunker was not there originally, it was only put in after Ben made the suggestion because he used to advise others that right isn’t bad at all it was just grass at the time.

 

That bunker isn’t a bad spot except maybe if the flags cut on the right hand side nearest the bunker. But otherwise your pitching the length of the green, you know your approach will finish in the bunker, and you almost never ever have a bad lie in a bunker at Augusta.

 

So to answer your question yes if players decided to go for the green in two, that bunker would probably see more action. But again as I stated earlier, I do think a lot more would lay up (as difficult a shot as that is the layup and the ensuing wedge shot).

 

Another thing to consider if length is added, I’m not sure how much room there is before you stop seeing the green on the approach. Right now if you’re a player your approach overlooks the pond, the green and 16. As a fan, you look at the green, the pond, then uphill the player. Patrons would lose some of that great theatre if tees were pushed back so much guys couldn’t make it over the hill.

Just something to consider, but the committee and chairman will make the right decision if they decide to do anything.

 

 

[Roadking2003]

PS not every hole needs to be made more difficult. This hole, and 13, really are par 4.5 and to make them more difficult destroys that.

 

I agree. What makes 13 and 15 very exciting is the wide range of scores that are in play.

 

Both holes historical average is about 4.8 with about the same number of double bogeys as eagles.

 

Clearly, they are about the most exciting holes on the course.

 

It's interesting that the average score on #2 is almost identical to #13 and #15 but nobody is complaining that it's too easy.

[Shilgy]

PS not every hole needs to be made more difficult. This hole, and 13, really are par 4.5 and to make them more difficult destroys that.

 

I agree. What makes 13 and 15 very exciting is the wide range of scores that are in play.

 

Both holes historical average is about 4.8 with about the same number of double bogeys as eagles.

 

Clearly, they are about the most exciting holes on the course.

 

It's interesting that the average score on #2 is almost identical to #13 and #15 but nobody is complaining that it's too easy.

And, on both holes it's the second shot that makes the hole exciting because the results can be so dramatic. Making the tee shot more difficult would do nothing to enhance the theater of the back nine.

[delmer]

PS not every hole needs to be made more difficult. This hole, and 13, really are par 4.5 and to make them more difficult destroys that.

 

I agree. What makes 13 and 15 very exciting is the wide range of scores that are in play.

 

Both holes historical average is about 4.8 with about the same number of double bogeys as eagles.

 

Clearly, they are about the most exciting holes on the course.

 

It's interesting that the average score on #2 is almost identical to #13 and #15 but nobody is complaining that it's too easy.

And, on both holes it's the second shot that makes the hole exciting because the results can be so dramatic. Making the tee shot more difficult would do nothing to enhance the theater of the back nine.

 

That's what I've been saying all along. I wouldn't change them but they are talking about making the decision to go for both of them in two more difficult. You used to see a lot more balls go in the front water on 15 in years past but you don't really see it all that often anymore. I also agree that my bailout would be into that right bunker but you really don't see a lot of shots played from there so that tells me the miss is long and I'd make that more damaging to your round.

 

Not a lot of guys get it up and down from back there but not a lot of them make 6 either. If they made long harder I think we would see a lot of guys bail out into the right bunker.

[Nard_S]

Lengthening 13 & 15 is a band aid to a deeper problem courses have to keep their teeth. Pro's are better technically and stronger, the gear is better but what's really taking down classic design is the nature of the ball. It's flat out more aerodynamic yet not really all that much longer. The wild card of wind which Augusta has been notorious for has less bite. 2nd shot in now is easier no matter how they trick up greens or the rest. So they can vary things but long term it will never be fixed till ball characteristics are modified to enhance wind hazard. Not holding my breath there. JMHO.:)

[mark m]

I agree with Ajit and could see a total overhaul of the #4 green complex. The hole was not designed to play 230-240. Good design principles say a required shot of that length would mean the green should be large - probably at least 30 yards deep - and more open in front. You will typically find this if you look at any long par 3's at good or great courses. From the back of the box to carry the bunker is around 235. Only the front left has a narrow opening. But perhaps the old thought processes are out - as these guys are good with this modern equipment?

 

The other hole is 17. I could see extending the green lobe on the left (behind the bunker) slightly so they could tuck a pin. And perhaps the same on the back right and add a bunker? If they lengthen #13 - I wonder if they also plan to make some tweaks in the landing area for tee balls?

 

MacKenzie knew how to layout a golf course. Best ever IMO.

Happy Thanksgiving!