MD/DC/VA Golfers - Twelve Monkeys Mental Divergence

[dcmidnight]

 

 

[dcmidnight]

Not that it's gonna change anything I do, but I'm still waiting to see the flag in/flag out test results from the other site. I was expecting to see something last week, but I guess it's taking a bit longer to put together than they let on.

 

Damn I wish I could remember where I saw it but there was a pro on YouTube that did a test like this. They used a stimpmeter as a ramp and did something like a thousand balls at different intervals, flag in and flag out, and the results were overwhelmingly to leave the flag in. I wouldnt call it highly scientific but it was about as close as you can get IMO.

 

I'll look back and try to find it.

 

edit - not a pro, I think it was retweeted by one

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc90UbpJbuM

[FAbb]

Updated.

 

[eagle1997]

it's not even groundhog day, and puppetmaster has popped his head up and taken a peek around.

 

then DC drops the hammer on him.

 

lol

[TheCityGame]

Q. for the guys who are reading a lot of golf architecture stuff or listening to podcasts. Lets say you read a *really* long, opinion based article with tons of uberwoke opinions about how a particular course is being "ruined" by technology. And that most players that play it seem to still love the course even though they probably arent smart enough to appreciate the course's architectural features < authors opinion tinged with my sarcasm.

 

Does your opinion of the article change if 3/4 of the way through it the author reveals that not only has he never played there but he's never even been there? Its essentially an "on paper" exercise - although he is perfectly happy running down people who dont agree with his very long winded opinions?

 

I've been slowly chopping all the golf architecture stuff off my podcast list for various reasons. i think mostly bc I can just enjoy playing certain courses without having to get into the weeds about crap like this. But this article really sort of brought home to me why I am perfectly happy tapping out on this sort of thing altogether.

 

well i'm not the post's target audience but i tapped out of this stuff about 4 minutes into a NLU podcast when Tron and Soly agreed that good golf courses could only be built on sandy soil. Soly said that again on the pod with Brandel and Brandel was like "that's absurd. most golf courses in the US aren't built on sandy soil and you can still enjoy the game playing those courses".

 

so can you post the article or just allow me to guess the course? augusta?

https://gfordgolf.com/2018/12/29/reading-st-andrews-part-1-introduction/

[SullGolf]

The golf course architecture snobbery is like most snobbery: it gets it all backwards. A golf course is good because it's enjoyable to play. There's not much more to it than that. If you're a course designer or owner, you should care about the architecture details to figure out why something is enjoyable. If you're a player, you should just care about if you enjoy it and how much. If you get some enjoyment out of knowing the architecture details the designer/owner put in, then that's all good too. But you don't get to dictate what makes something enjoyable to someone else.

[dcmidnight]

Thanks City, I dont think I realized there were other articles.

 

BTW I said that I couldn't post the article from work and then said it was about the Old Course...then 2mt wanted to know why I couldnt post the article and what course it was about. CANT PLEASE EVERYONE.

[TheCityGame]

He's talking about TheCityGame, obviously. Splitting fairways like kindling, and thinning wedges over greens.

I've not focused on wedges as much this off-season as I thought I was going to, but they've gotten MUCH better regardless. Part of the reason that I haven't worked on them as much is that I felt very good about what I figured out about them. I hit the green with every wedge I hit in on Saturday.

 

I hit 14 greens Saturday and shot 75. 3 3-putts. Just ridiculous. Guy I played with shot even and hit 12 greens (and had 5 birdies to my 2). I hate that soooo bad. Like it's just laying bare how bad my putting was. It helped that he holed one from a bunker for bird.

 

I missed one green long when I thought the wind would hold it up. Missed 2 more greens in the fringe and one green 5 yards short. It was a ball striking 70. It was a putting 80.

[FAbb]

That kind of round is maddening.

 

72 off 12 GIRs isn't astounding. That's just a relatively well-rounded golf game. 75 off 14 GIRs is a dumpster fire.

[TheCityGame]

In my "defense", all three of the 3-putts had to go up and over a hump and two of them I was really trying to make because partner was in with the par and they ran 5/6 feet by. This one dude right now. . .anything straightish inside 15 feet is in. That said, he 3-putted 9 for a 33 on the front. We were playing 1 vs 2 on every hole and he won 9 holes on the front. We got into him a little on the back.

[Puppetmaster]

Updated.

 

 

You got me. I've missed the MS Paint jobs.

[Puppetmaster]

it's not even groundhog day, and puppetmaster has popped his head up and taken a peek around.

 

then DC drops the hammer on him.

 

lol

 

[eagle1997]

my putting sucks right now as well, maybe because it's early jan but i am having a hard time giving AF about anything. just happy to be on the course and yukking it up with the guys. anything good that happens game-wise is a huge bonus.

 

i'm keeping track of holes i've birdied at hivemore so far. 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 12, 13, 15, 18 are done.

 

not too bad for approx. 2.5 months. missed a bunny on #8 which would have crossed 2 off my list yesterday. the one that came off sooner than expected (which was a total surprise) was #9 on the toughest pin location. hit the stick on a back left pin with a hybrid from the men's tees, then buried the 10 footer. CJ brings out the best in me. :) i wonder how long it will take me to get all 18 holes. guessing 12 months, at a minimum. 14, 16 are gonna be tough. had decent looks at almost every other one i haven't gotten yet.

[2moreTerps]

 

 

that gif helps me with my visualization skills

 

city it was a mediocre at best dig at FABB

[2moreTerps]

Not that it's gonna change anything I do, but I'm still waiting to see the flag in/flag out test results from the other site. I was expecting to see something last week, but I guess it's taking a bit longer to put together than they let on.

 

Damn I wish I could remember where I saw it but there was a pro on YouTube that did a test like this. They used a stimpmeter as a ramp and did something like a thousand balls at different intervals, flag in and flag out, and the results were overwhelmingly to leave the flag in. I wouldnt call it highly scientific but it was about as close as you can get IMO.

 

I'll look back and try to find it.

 

edit - not a pro, I think it was retweeted by one

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc90UbpJbuM

 

well. that video confirms it. any putt i'm trying to make i'm taking the flag out. i don't know if i've ever hit a 10 footer that hard and past the hole. and visually it messes me up.

 

btw did anyone notice more guys leaving it in on lag putts? rory did yesterday. i also saw some situations where i thought people had hit tap ins with the flag in.

[eagle1997]

any putt i'm trying to make i'm taking the flag out. i don't know if i've ever hit a 10 footer that hard and past the hole. and visually it messes me up.

 

totally agree. it doesn't bother me too bad on longer putts, but inside 15 feet for anything that matters... it's coming out.

 

obvi i might change my mind on it, but this is my plan once the handicap season starts.

 

my main issue: the flagstick makes the hole look small to me which often results in an awkward stroke (trying to be too perfect).

[TheCityGame]

well. that video confirms it. any putt i'm trying to make i'm taking the flag out. i don't know if i've ever hit a 10 footer that hard and past the hole. and visually it messes me up.

what did that video confirm?

 

He basically said it only helps and never hurts.

 

Look, if you really believe the data, why isn't your thought process this : "right now, the flagstick visually messes me up. Since I believe the flagstick should help sink more putts, I'm going to work on getting used to it visually."

 

We're not talking about swinging left handed. We're talking about you have 2 months to learn to look at the hole with a stick in it, just like you've done for 1000 hours on the practice green your whole life.

 

FTR, I've seen two putts lately that look like they would have gone in but stayed out because of the stick. And I don't think I've seen any -- yet -- where the flagstick saved a guy a stroke.

[SullGolf]

For my single round of playing with the flag in, there is definitely some visual adjustment to make. It felt like I was always looking at the center of the cup, when sometimes I wanted to be looking at the edge. I'm not sure if that's actually a bad thing yet, but it is different.

[ceejay81]

I haven't taken the flag stick out for about a month now. Life has never been better.

[dcmidnight]

what did that video confirm?

 

He basically said it only helps and never hurts.

 

Thats how I read it as well. Like I said, I dont know how "scientific" I was expecting it to be. But it seems like using the stimpmeter as a control device is about as close as you are going to get.

 

And my read of it was, on putts we setup to lip out or barely miss the hole, a larger % of those stayed in when the flagstick was in vs catching the hole and staying in without the flag.

 

"The flagstick being in messes me up mentally" - I get that. I think you can practice yourself out of it if you want to, but I get it if thats your issue.

[2moreTerps]

"however if the ball would have clearly ended up behind the hole* it makes a huge difference" 1:02

(IE on line and WAY too hard)

 

so. 0 additional putts holed unless your speed control is literally unbelievably bad on a 6 foot putt. i'm only talking about putts where the flag stick has a visual effect on aiming

 

DC it says nothing about putts where we aim at the edge. and if you're lipping out a putt it's not touching the flagstick and therefore cannot have any bearing on it going in or not.

[TheCityGame]

"however if the ball would have clearly ended up behind the hole* it makes a huge difference" 1:02

(IE on line and WAY too hard)

 

so. 0 additional putts holed unless your speed control is literally unbelievably bad on a 6 foot putt. i'm only talking about putts where the flag stick has a visual effect on aiming

 

DC it says nothing about putts where we aim at the edge. and if you're lipping out a putt it's not touching the flagstick and therefore cannot have any bearing on it going in or not.

Basically you're saying that you get that the flag can help you if you make a mistake, but you don't make mistakes, so never mind.

[GooseHook]

I haven't taken the flag stick out for about a month now. Life has never been better.

 

Hopefully your courses aren't using a double cup system for the winter.

[FAbb]

city it was a mediocre at best dig at FABB

 

And I flipped it to a mediocre at best dig at City.

 

It's been sort of weird to see City's game in some ways become more similar to mine. I think it gets back to the whack-a-mole nature of getting better on limited time. City's ball striking is getting really good. He's missing less greens, so he's hitting less short game shots per round. So maybe he should make an effort to hit the short game an hour or so once a week - but then he could be using that time to play 9, or work wedges on the range, or putt, or whatever. What breakdown of time leads to the best scores? What breakdown of time leads to the most enjoyment? Maybe playing more golf is just more fun, and the score improvement isn't worth the time trade of practice time for play time.

[FAbb]

"however if the ball would have clearly ended up behind the hole* it makes a huge difference" 1:02

(IE on line and WAY too hard)

 

so. 0 additional putts holed unless your speed control is literally unbelievably bad on a 6 foot putt. i'm only talking about putts where the flag stick has a visual effect on aiming

 

DC it says nothing about putts where we aim at the edge. and if you're lipping out a putt it's not touching the flagstick and therefore cannot have any bearing on it going in or not.

Basically you're saying that you get that the flag can help you if you make a mistake, but you don't make mistakes, so never mind.

 

It's a trade.

 

How many times am I going to hit a 6 foot or less putt so hard that the flag stick would help me out? Probably not very many.

 

How many times, in my current state of perception and targeting on the greens am I going to shiggle a putt wide left or right, because the flag being in messes with me? Probably a significant number.

[TheCityGame]

"however if the ball would have clearly ended up behind the hole* it makes a huge difference" 1:02

(IE on line and WAY too hard)

 

so. 0 additional putts holed unless your speed control is literally unbelievably bad on a 6 foot putt. i'm only talking about putts where the flag stick has a visual effect on aiming

 

DC it says nothing about putts where we aim at the edge. and if you're lipping out a putt it's not touching the flagstick and therefore cannot have any bearing on it going in or not.

Basically you're saying that you get that the flag can help you if you make a mistake, but you don't make mistakes, so never mind.

 

It's a trade.

 

How many times am I going to hit a 6 foot or less putt so hard that the flag stick would help me out? Probably not very many.

 

How many times, in my current state of perception and targeting on the greens am I going to shiggle a putt wide left or right, because the flag being in messes with me? Probably a significant number.

you're going to be putting FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

 

It seems like some of you guys are being intentionally stubborn about it.

 

Not even like, "eh, I'm going to try it for a couple months and if I'm still having issues in March, I'm going to take it out." But just like, "nope. I don't like it. Book closed."

 

As I said before, I've seen a couple now not go in that surprised me. I'm keeping my mind open. I'm not keeping stats or anything, but I'm keeping a close eye on how well I'm making my shorties, and how well other people I'm playing with are. It's definitely in for longer stuff.

 

Guy who shot even banged out a 3 footer on 18 Saturday that looked an armpit hair low of dead center. I need to see if that was an anomaly or if there's something more going on. The ball-roll experiments are a piece of evidence in favor, but they're not the whole story.

[eagle1997]

city's been talking about practicing hitting putts with the pin in for a long, long time. can't confirm, but probably around a year ago? that's a yuge advantage over people who aren't used to putting with the stick in. good on him. any advantage he's gained is an advantage he's earned.

 

him bullying* people into leaving the stick in all the time will undoubtedly result in more wins.

 

because people will miss more putts from the distraction and he won't.

 

in theory, anyway.

 

the distraction is most likely something we all can get over IF WE WANT TO. some of us don't want to.

 

 

 

*not really bullying, but i'm all janky right now and can't think of the proper word i want to use.

[FAbb]

It probably seems that way because I am being intentionally stubborn about it.

 

What's the reward for me forcing myself to re-learn how to target and visually deal with putts, when the rules leave the choice to the player? It sounds like, not much.

 

Putting is such a mentally driven exercise. Who's to say subjecting myself to trying something that makes me very uncomfortable won't lead to bad things. I've said it feels like my mind and body work to subconsciously avoid the stick. Spending a couple months voluntarily fighting the yips doesn't sound fun, or productive.

 

If it's outside of 10ft or whatever peripheral range, I'm happy to leave it in. If it's inside, pull that sucker.

[ceejay81]

I haven't taken the flag stick out for about a month now. Life has never been better.

 

Hopefully your courses aren't using a double cup system for the winter.

 

I would definitely remove it for that. After putting out, of course. Woodmore doesn’t utilize the double cup winter system.

 

 

[TheCityGame]

city's been talking about practicing hitting putts with the pin in for a long, long time. can't confirm, but probably around a year ago? that's a yuge advantage over people who aren't used to putting with the stick in. good on him. any advantage he's gained is an advantage he's earned.

Has to add up to at least about 1/16th of a shot per round. Yuge.