Putting with flag in (MERGED)

[jasonfish11]

I believe that a large majority of really good players can overcome their initial mental issues. If Phil, or anyone else, is convinced that he'll shoot lower scores by leaving the flagstick in, he'll practice with it in until he overcomes his initial misgivings. I'm equally sure that a few players will refuse to review any research, and will remain convinced that their way is still the best way.

 

This happens now, I don't see why it's going to be any different.

 

There is research out there now that shows putting while looking at the hole is beneficial (more so in lag putting, but to a smaller extent for short putts). But I'm the only person I've ever played with who putts looking at the hole.

 

Would be interested in learning more about your technique. I am a side-saddle putter but up to this point have looked at the ball. With the flagstick rule, I have been experimenting with looking at the hole. The stick gives me better depth perception for some reason.

 

Here is one study I've found.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320295205_Evaluation_of_Near_Versus_Far_Target_Visual_Focus_Strategies_With_Breaking_Putts

[davep043]

I believe that a large majority of really good players can overcome their initial mental issues. If Phil, or anyone else, is convinced that he'll shoot lower scores by leaving the flagstick in, he'll practice with it in until he overcomes his initial misgivings. I'm equally sure that a few players will refuse to review any research, and will remain convinced that their way is still the best way.

 

This happens now, I don't see why it's going to be any different.

 

There is research out there now that shows putting while looking at the hole is beneficial (more so in lag putting, but to a smaller extent for short putts). But I'm the only person I've ever played with who putts looking at the hole.

I know its off this topic, but I'd be interested in reading the stuff about putting while looking at the hole, can you provide a link?

[bladehunter]

 

I believe that a large majority of really good players can overcome their initial mental issues. If Phil, or anyone else, is convinced that he'll shoot lower scores by leaving the flagstick in, he'll practice with it in until he overcomes his initial misgivings. I'm equally sure that a few players will refuse to review any research, and will remain convinced that their way is still the best way.

 

This happens now, I don't see why it's going to be any different.

 

There is research out there now that shows putting while looking at the hole is beneficial (more so in lag putting, but to a smaller extent for short putts). But I'm the only person I've ever played with who putts looking at the hole.

 

Funny.

 

I look at the hole on short putts in practice and make them all. It takes some concentration to do it but it works. I’m chicken to do it on course. I’d have to make the first 10 to not scrap it right away. Lol. It’s the most perception of control you can give up in the game in my opinion. To setup and putt blindly that is.

 

 

 

[rawdog]

I believe that a large majority of really good players can overcome their initial mental issues. If Phil, or anyone else, is convinced that he'll shoot lower scores by leaving the flagstick in, he'll practice with it in until he overcomes his initial misgivings. I'm equally sure that a few players will refuse to review any research, and will remain convinced that their way is still the best way.

 

This happens now, I don't see why it's going to be any different.

 

There is research out there now that shows putting while looking at the hole is beneficial (more so in lag putting, but to a smaller extent for short putts). But I'm the only person I've ever played with who putts looking at the hole.

 

Funny.

 

I look at the hole on short putts in practice and make them all. It takes some concentration to do it but it works. I'm chicken to do it on course. I'd have to make the first 10 to not scrap it right away. Lol. It's the most perception of control you can give up in the game in my opinion. To setup and putt blindly that is.

 

Going through that right now. You have to be willing to look stupid a few times.

 

I putt sidesaddle most of the time now. Bryson style, short 33.5" center shaft mallet I made. I still catch some turf on certain slopes from time to time. I laugh it off. My regular playing partners gave me s*** because that's what we do. But my friend gave me a huge compliment when we finished our (likely) last round for 2018.

 

I said "I need another few months to see if sidesaddle is the way to go. I don't know if these past 3 months were worth it." And he said "I'd say it was a big success considering you just started. I saw no difference in your putting and it's only going to get better."

 

So it's cool. I've always been the "do it my way" guy, so I have fun making birdies while looking like a total weirdo. Now, we'll see how I feel if I decide to do that in tournaments next year...

[jasonfish11]

I believe that a large majority of really good players can overcome their initial mental issues. If Phil, or anyone else, is convinced that he'll shoot lower scores by leaving the flagstick in, he'll practice with it in until he overcomes his initial misgivings. I'm equally sure that a few players will refuse to review any research, and will remain convinced that their way is still the best way.

 

This happens now, I don't see why it's going to be any different.

 

There is research out there now that shows putting while looking at the hole is beneficial (more so in lag putting, but to a smaller extent for short putts). But I'm the only person I've ever played with who putts looking at the hole.

I know its off this topic, but I'd be interested in reading the stuff about putting while looking at the hole, can you provide a link?

 

In addition to the link above, here is a book that has more research on it.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Instinct-Putting-Breakthrough-Science-Based-Technique/dp/1592403530/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277611662&sr=8-1

 

Here is a summary of that book.

 

https://onpar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/the-key-to-improved-putting-could-be-staring-right-at-the-hole/

[just plain bill]

it would seem that leaving the flag in effectively makes the hole 'smaller', so to speak... we DO leave it in just playing non-tournament rounds, and if the ball hits the flag at a reasonably normal speed, we count it as good...we're in a hurry, as it's freezing! barely hit 50 today! lol

[davep043]

it would seem that leaving the flag in effectively makes the hole 'smaller', so to speak... we DO leave it in just playing non-tournament rounds, and if the ball hits the flag at a reasonably normal speed, we count it as good...we're in a hurry, as it's freezing! barely hit 50 today! lol

I can see this impression, but a ball hitting the flag slows down, so its spending more time over the hole itself. More time over the hole, more chance to drop in. Besides, slowing the ball means it stays closer on putts that don't go in.

[bladehunter]

I believe that a large majority of really good players can overcome their initial mental issues. If Phil, or anyone else, is convinced that he'll shoot lower scores by leaving the flagstick in, he'll practice with it in until he overcomes his initial misgivings. I'm equally sure that a few players will refuse to review any research, and will remain convinced that their way is still the best way.

 

This happens now, I don't see why it's going to be any different.

 

There is research out there now that shows putting while looking at the hole is beneficial (more so in lag putting, but to a smaller extent for short putts). But I'm the only person I've ever played with who putts looking at the hole.

 

Funny.

 

I look at the hole on short putts in practice and make them all. It takes some concentration to do it but it works. I'm chicken to do it on course. I'd have to make the first 10 to not scrap it right away. Lol. It's the most perception of control you can give up in the game in my opinion. To setup and putt blindly that is.

 

Going through that right now. You have to be willing to look stupid a few times.

 

I putt sidesaddle most of the time now. Bryson style, short 33.5" center shaft mallet I made. I still catch some turf on certain slopes from time to time. I laugh it off. My regular playing partners gave me s*** because that's what we do. But my friend gave me a huge compliment when we finished our (likely) last round for 2018.

 

I said "I need another few months to see if sidesaddle is the way to go. I don't know if these past 3 months were worth it." And he said "I'd say it was a big success considering you just started. I saw no difference in your putting and it's only going to get better."

 

So it's cool. I've always been the "do it my way" guy, so I have fun making birdies while looking like a total weirdo. Now, we'll see how I feel if I decide to do that in tournaments next year...

 

I tell you what is same for me.

 

When I putt andgt down closer to the ball I see the line. Like phil or kuchar or jack. Tall guys look rediculous doing this. But it works. People eventually feel dumb making fun of a guy making everything. That’s the real change I made.

 

Part of me wants to track my putting from scratch now. Part of me is afeared ( yes afeared ) to do so. Might pop the bubble. Lol

[jasonfish11]

Part of me wants to track my putting from scratch now. Part of me is afeared ( yes afeared ) to do so. Might pop the bubble. Lol

 

After putting looking at the hole on the practice green for 2.5 years I said screw it and started tracking.

 

I tracked about 500 putts total on the actual golf course. 250ish each looking at the ball and at the hole. I wish I could find the data, but I made about 6-7% more putts overall, and on putts over 20' my average leave went from right around 3' to right around 2' (33% improvement). It equated to about 2 putts per round better. Keep in mind before I was terrible averaging ~35 putts per round. So now I'm just mildly bad at putting.

 

I haven't looked back (pun intended) since.

 

One piece of advice is that a higher MOI putter works better, because you do increase your off center hits. So the higher MOI putter is less penalizing on those miss-hits.

[Shilgy]

 

Tour has another way of handling this without going against rules of golf. They can fine guys (without making it public).

 

They would have to add it as a Condition of Competition. And it's not happening.

 

Not that I care, and either way it's not going to kill me, but I wonder why this will be allowed, when there is CLEAR evidence of assistance to the player, yet anchored putters were banned having no evidence at all?

Please help me to understand, how will they include this as a CoC? How will they write the prohibition, and how will they enforce it, while still following the Rules of Golf? I don't see a way to do it, beyond super-secret fines, which will always end up being public. The PGA Tour has written guidelines which outline fine situations. They don't publicize the fines, like the slow play fines which do occur, but the policy is there for all to read.

 

 

Bull...a good putter doesn't need the occasional assistance the pin might give. From 30' and in it's going to be out.

 

 

If a guy is playing for his livelihood, and for tons of money, he's going to use whatever assistance he can get within the rules. If this helps one putt per tournament stay a couple feet closer to the hole, he'd be a fool to forego the assistance. It won't help good putts, but it has the chance to help a mis-judged putt, and those happen to every single player.

Well agree to disagree on the second part. They very rarely dramatically misjudge a putt of 30' and in.

The first part was a poor cut and paste. The quote there is not from me. I said nothing about a coc for your play, ever.

[dciccoritti]

I believe that a large majority of really good players can overcome their initial mental issues. If Phil, or anyone else, is convinced that he'll shoot lower scores by leaving the flagstick in, he'll practice with it in until he overcomes his initial misgivings. I'm equally sure that a few players will refuse to review any research, and will remain convinced that their way is still the best way.

 

This happens now, I don't see why it's going to be any different.

 

There is research out there now that shows putting while looking at the hole is beneficial (more so in lag putting, but to a smaller extent for short putts). But I'm the only person I've ever played with who putts looking at the hole.

 

I've been doing it for 2 seasons now.

[Golf Puff]

I believe that a large majority of really good players can overcome their initial mental issues. If Phil, or anyone else, is convinced that he'll shoot lower scores by leaving the flagstick in, he'll practice with it in until he overcomes his initial misgivings. I'm equally sure that a few players will refuse to review any research, and will remain convinced that their way is still the best way.

 

This happens now, I don't see why it's going to be any different.

 

There is research out there now that shows putting while looking at the hole is beneficial (more so in lag putting, but to a smaller extent for short putts). But I'm the only person I've ever played with who putts looking at the hole.

 

I've been doing it for 2 seasons now.

 

 

Also been putting with head up looking at the hole beyond 6-8' for a couple years, maybe more. Been receiving comments about 'reverse Spieth', and he's been a golf topic for a number of years. Think about the benefits - what other game do you not look at the target? Shooting free throws? Darts? Bow and arrow? For me, it's an experiment to help with lag putting, and generally I think it is helpful. Sure, there are days that are still not good. One other thought - you don't have to be concerned with 'peeking' if you are already looking at the hole. I also agree that a high MOI putter helps on the putts you mishit, but I can do that looking at the ball on longer putts anyway.

[davep043]

Also been putting with head up looking at the hole beyond 6-8' for a couple years, maybe more. Been receiving comments about 'reverse Spieth', and he's been a golf topic for a number of years. Think about the benefits - what other game do you not look at the target? Shooting free throws? Darts? Bow and arrow? For me, it's an experiment to help with lag putting, and generally I think it is helpful. Sure, there are days that are still not good. One other thought - you don't have to be concerned with 'peeking' if you are already looking at the hole. I also agree that a high MOI putter helps on the putts you mishit, but I can do that looking at the ball on longer putts anyway.

Hockey players often look at the puck, not the goal, for slap shots. Baseball hitters watch the ball, not the left field gap. Only guessing, but I'd bet that this is the same for field hockey and Irish hurling, and perhaps other "stick sports". I think that when using a club, bat, or stick, and trying to hit something (as opposed to shooting a lacrosse ball when its already in the netting), watching the ball (or puck) is pretty common. I can see how putting is different, since the stance is very stable, the body movement is small, and the ball is stationary. Its something I'll try. I'll be playing 6 or 8 rounds in Pinehurst next week, that should be enough time to get used to looking at the hole.

[bermuda]

There's been research at a local university that shows simply keeping your eyes steady -- whether looking at the hole, the ball, a spot on the green or wherever -- improves putting. I would think looking at the hole gives you one target to concentrate on. Looking at the ball, you might divert your eyes to a spot on the ball, a nearby ballmark, you might watch the putter going back, you might watch an insect crawling around, so there's more to divert your eyes when you try to look at the ball.

 

Sort of like the motorcycle-riding axiom of look where you want to go rather than where you don't want to go.

[Vindog]

Man, I tried looking at the hole while putting, and it was disastrous. I realized that my stroke can't be trusted to do things on its own (yet), and that I have to pay attention to the takeaway.

[gioreeko]

Putting with the flagstick in becomes thread about looking at the hole when putting, lol

[Vindog]

Putting with the flagstick in becomes thread about looking at the hole when putting, lol

 

Or....... looking at the flagstick while it is in the hole when putting.

[Holy Moses]

According to Hank Haney who knows a USGA insider, the USGA is panicking over the new putting with the flag in rule. They never expected pros to consider putting with the flag in to give them an advantage, only to speed up play.

[Shilgy]

According to Hank Haney who knows a USGA insider, the USGA is panicking over the new putting with the flag in rule. They never expected pros to consider putting with the flag in to give them an advantage, only to speed up play.

You would certainly hope and expect that the stewards of the game would think that out before implementing that big a rule change.

[Vindog]

According to Hank Haney who knows a USGA insider, the USGA is panicking over the new putting with the flag in rule. They never expected pros to consider putting with the flag in to give them an advantage, only to speed up play.

 

That seems weird that they would not consider that, but at the same time it wouldn't be weird if they didn't......kind of. I would be shocked if neither that concept nor the Pelz research blah blah never made it to the discussion table.

 

Haney and Grains of salt. The new dynamic duo?

[jmck]

According to Hank Haney who knows a USGA insider, the USGA is panicking over the new putting with the flag in rule. They never expected pros to consider putting with the flag in to give them an advantage, only to speed up play.

 

This has gotta be the stupidest thing I've heard in at least two days, which is saying something nowadays. And to be clear I'm not talking about my friend Mr. Moses's post above, I'm talking about Hank Haney, the USGA, any and all USGA "insiders," along anyone who "never expected" to see the unintended consequences of this garbage rule coming from a mile away. Stupidity and arrogance combined at their finest.

 

Swear to god I should bill the USGA $975/hour for reading my posts on golfwrx.com. It'd be money well spent for those morons.

[davep043]

According to Hank Haney who knows a USGA insider, the USGA is panicking over the new putting with the flag in rule. They never expected pros to consider putting with the flag in to give them an advantage, only to speed up play.

 

This has gotta be the stupidest thing I've heard in at least two days, which is saying something nowadays. And to be clear I'm not talking about my friend Mr. Moses's post above, I'm talking about Hank Haney, the USGA, any and all USGA "insiders," along anyone who "never expected" to see the unintended consequences of this garbage rule coming from a mile away. Stupidity and arrogance combined at their finest.

 

Swear to god I should bill the USGA $975/hour for reading my posts on golfwrx.com. It'd be money well spent for those morons.

In my fairly limited experience listening to Hank Haney on Sirius/XM, he tends to blow pretty much every issue into a "sky is falling" situation. This report of what Haney said seems to be consistent with that trend. I have no idea what Haney's USGA insider actually said, but I'd be really surprised if was anywhere near as severe as Hank reported it to be. It might be a little early to condemn the USGA for this specific situation.

[aliikane]

I don't like the new flag rule. I think it will slow play. Not as much in the amateur ranks but in the pro ranks, it may slow play because everyone will have a preference of if they want the flag in or not. We may be seeing flags removed and put back several times in one group. I would of rather seen them legalize laser rangefinder devices on the pro tours because that would speed up play.

[ShutSteepStuck]

I don't like the new flag rule. I think it will slow play. Not as much in the amateur ranks but in the pro ranks, it may slow play because everyone will have a preference of if they want the flag in or not. We may be seeing flags removed and put back several times in one group. I would of rather seen them legalize laser rangefinder devices on the pro tours because that would speed up play.

 

My thoughts exactly....

 

The only rule I would like to see is making it mandatory to walk in the guy's line who wants the pin one way when the other guys in his foursome want it another.

[bladehunter]

According to Hank Haney who knows a USGA insider, the USGA is panicking over the new putting with the flag in rule. They never expected pros to consider putting with the flag in to give them an advantage, only to speed up play.

 

Not shocked. They are class A clueless.

[Vindog]

I don't like the new flag rule. I think it will slow play. Not as much in the amateur ranks but in the pro ranks, it may slow play because everyone will have a preference of if they want the flag in or not. We may be seeing flags removed and put back several times in one group. I would of rather seen them legalize laser rangefinder devices on the pro tours because that would speed up play.

 

I dunno. It seems likely that instead of mulling over a yardage book and throwing grass in the air, they'll be mulling over a yardage book, throwing grass in the air AND messing with a range finder.

[playa]

I always leave it in. And mind you under the current rules it is not a penalty to putt with the flag in. Only if your ball hits it is it a penalty.

 

The only danger moving forward is if the ball is not completely below the level of the ground. It is not considered "holed" and if the ball pops out as the flagstick is removed then you must play it as it lies.

Not so.

New rules say that any part of the ball below the level of the hole is deemed holed.

[Vindog]

I always leave it in. And mind you under the current rules it is not a penalty to putt with the flag in. Only if your ball hits it is it a penalty.

 

The only danger moving forward is if the ball is not completely below the level of the ground. It is not considered "holed" and if the ball pops out as the flagstick is removed then you must play it as it lies.

Not so.

New rules say that any part of the ball below the level of the hole is deemed holed.

 

Merry Christmas Playa!

 

Nothing gets by you, eh? (kidding kidding kidding) That was cleared up a few posts later

[playa]

I always leave it in. And mind you under the current rules it is not a penalty to putt with the flag in. Only if your ball hits it is it a penalty.

 

The only danger moving forward is if the ball is not completely below the level of the ground. It is not considered "holed" and if the ball pops out as the flagstick is removed then you must play it as it lies.

Not so.

New rules say that any part of the ball below the level of the hole is deemed holed.

 

Merry Christmas Playa!

 

Nothing gets by you, eh? (kidding kidding kidding) That was cleared up a few posts later

Thought it may have been but couldn't be bothered going through all the posts. Only reason I knew is because I watched a YouTube clip on the changes and that rule about the ball only having to be beneath the plane really got my attention.

Merry Christmas yourself.

[Zz24hours]

Not having read the entire thread ...

 

An altered design of the flagstick is patented, which will allow for the ball to hit the stick and more likely be directed into the cup, instead of bouncing of it