2019 Rules of Golf

[Mr. Bean]

 

And also don't take opposite side relief from a lateral water hazard (red penalty area)

 

unless your course adopts the local rule allowing it.

 

... in which case that would be the only lateral relief option there could be... so why not take it..?

[Colin L]

I hadn't thought about it like this until you brought up this point ..... if, by definition, the reference point is defined as the "estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area," then that would leave me to believe that the reference point would always be located inside the penalty area because a ball is considered in the penalty area as soon as it touches the line. Not once it has completely crossed over.

 

Be careful now as you seem to be combining red and yellow penalty areas' Rules!!

 

In red PA the reference point MAY be the 'estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area' but it does not necessarily have to be that. But in Yellow PA that is never true but the reference point is a point on the line BEHIND the estimated point, which is 'the estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area'.

 

Wow, this discussions implies that the current Water Hazard Rule is by far way more simple than this new one of Penalty Areas...

 

You are right. After reading my post again, my rambling did not make much sense.

 

I think we've pretty much determined that this whole "using one club length to essentially take lateral relief from a yellow penalty" idea just remains up in the air. I went ahead and emailed the USGA rules inbox and got an automated reply about taking 3-5 business days or something to that effect. If and when I hear anything back I will post the reply here.

 

Could you copy us into the question you asked?

[fairways4life]

I hadn't thought about it like this until you brought up this point ..... if, by definition, the reference point is defined as the "estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area," then that would leave me to believe that the reference point would always be located inside the penalty area because a ball is considered in the penalty area as soon as it touches the line. Not once it has completely crossed over.

 

Be careful now as you seem to be combining red and yellow penalty areas' Rules!!

 

In red PA the reference point MAY be the 'estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area' but it does not necessarily have to be that. But in Yellow PA that is never true but the reference point is a point on the line BEHIND the estimated point, which is 'the estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area'.

 

Wow, this discussions implies that the current Water Hazard Rule is by far way more simple than this new one of Penalty Areas...

 

You are right. After reading my post again, my rambling did not make much sense.

 

I think we've pretty much determined that this whole "using one club length to essentially take lateral relief from a yellow penalty" idea just remains up in the air. I went ahead and emailed the USGA rules inbox and got an automated reply about taking 3-5 business days or something to that effect. If and when I hear anything back I will post the reply here.

 

Could you copy us into the question you asked?

 

I asked about whether or not the reference point can be inside a yellow penalty area with the relief area extending outside of the penalty area into the general area with the help of the one-club length rule (which was added to the rules for 2019).

 

(the same thing we've been discussing on this thread for the last few pages)

[Mr. Bean]

 

I think we've pretty much determined that this whole "using one club length to essentially take lateral relief from a yellow penalty" idea just remains up in the air. I went ahead and emailed the USGA rules inbox and got an automated reply about taking 3-5 business days or something to that effect. If and when I hear anything back I will post the reply here.

 

Could you copy us into the question you asked?

 

I asked about whether or not the reference point can be inside a yellow penalty area with the relief area extending outside of the penalty area into the general area with the help of the one-club length rule (which was added to the rules for 2019).

 

(the same thing we've been discussing on this thread for the last few pages)

 

That is not what we have discussed here. That is, if you wrote the question like that.

 

Could you please copy the question you sent here?

[antip]

I hadn't thought about it like this until you brought up this point ..... if, by definition, the reference point is defined as the "estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area," then that would leave me to believe that the reference point would always be located inside the penalty area because a ball is considered in the penalty area as soon as it touches the line. Not once it has completely crossed over.

 

Be careful now as you seem to be combining red and yellow penalty areas' Rules!!

 

In red PA the reference point MAY be the 'estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area' but it does not necessarily have to be that. But in Yellow PA that is never true but the reference point is a point on the line BEHIND the estimated point, which is 'the estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area'.

 

Wow, this discussions implies that the current Water Hazard Rule is by far way more simple than this new one of Penalty Areas...

 

You are right. After reading my post again, my rambling did not make much sense.

 

I think we've pretty much determined that this whole "using one club length to essentially take lateral relief from a yellow penalty" idea just remains up in the air. I went ahead and emailed the USGA rules inbox and got an automated reply about taking 3-5 business days or something to that effect. If and when I hear anything back I will post the reply here.

I'm seeing what I think is some unclear and confused language relating to red and yellow penalty areas. Some facts are:

1) red penalty areas offer relief options that precisely match those that yellow offers. And they have one extra - lateral relief.

2) if you are taking BOL relief from red or yellow, the reference point is any BOL point (but such a point does not mean a relief area will be available from that reference point).

3) if you are taking BOL relief from red or yellow, the nearest reference point to the point where the ball last crossed the edge will be right next to it. It is in the PA by definition.

4) when you take BOL relief from a RED PA, you create a relief area using the reference point. If you use the reference point right next to where ball last crossed the edge, it is highly likely the potential relief area (the semi-circle) will be larger than the available relief area (available relief area is that part of the potential area that is outside the PA).

5) Yellow PA offers precisely the same BOL relief as the red PA, so precisely the same potential relief area exists for BOL relief taken from that reference point closest to the point of last crossing the edge. The ONLY difference between this yellow and red relief is the available relief area (that part of the potential relief area that is not in the PA) will highly likely be much smaller for a yellow PA (or even zero) because it is likely to be much closer to 90 degrees to the line of the hole while red is likely to be much closer to parallel.

 

My key point here is there is nothing in the published new rules that constrains BOL relief from being on the green side of the penalty area, regardless of whether we are talking red or yellow penalty areas. And red or yellow is irrelevant when we are comparing BOL relief taken from the reference point closest to where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA.

 

Now I'll add one further observation. There is virtually zero difference, for red penalty area relief, between BOL relief and lateral relief for the first club length of the relief area (lateral relief is larger overall, because it is 2CL versus 1CL) when the BOL relief is taken from the closest possible point to where the ball last crossed the edge. The only difference in the first club-length is that there is the tiniest difference in the reference points. Lateral relief: reference point is precisely point of last crossing; BOL relief reperence point is immediately behind that point. AND BOTH REFERENCE POINTS ARE IN THE PENALTY AREA BY DEFINITION.

 

This is what the published rules state. If Ruling Bodies did not intend for yellow PA BOL relief to be available from the green side of the PA, they need to issue some directives or make some rule changes. And also keep in mind, even now under the current rules BOL relief can be taken on the green side of a penalty area (water hazard) for the red ones.

[Mr. Bean]

This is what the published rules state. If Ruling Bodies did not intend for yellow PA BOL relief to be available from the green side of the PA, they need to issue some directives or make some rule changes. And also keep in mind, even now under the current rules BOL relief can be taken on the green side of a penalty area (water hazard) for the red ones.

 

Nope.

 

That would have to be the 2cl option, not the BOL option. Unless the shape of that LWH is very peculiar.

[fairways4life]

 

I think we've pretty much determined that this whole "using one club length to essentially take lateral relief from a yellow penalty" idea just remains up in the air. I went ahead and emailed the USGA rules inbox and got an automated reply about taking 3-5 business days or something to that effect. If and when I hear anything back I will post the reply here.

 

Could you copy us into the question you asked?

 

I asked about whether or not the reference point can be inside a yellow penalty area with the relief area extending outside of the penalty area into the general area with the help of the one-club length rule (which was added to the rules for 2019).

 

(the same thing we've been discussing on this thread for the last few pages)

 

That is not what we have discussed here. That is, if you wrote the question like that.

 

Could you please copy the question you sent here?

 

You know exactly what we have been discussing here. The concept of essentially taking lateral relief from a yellow penalty area.

[nsxguy]

OK, I'll ask.

 

BOL ? (Back On Line ?)

[fairways4life]

OK, I'll ask.

 

BOL ?

 

Back on line

[rogolf]

You know exactly what we have been discussing here. The concept of essentially taking lateral relief from a yellow penalty area.

 

Imo, you confuse things by using the phrase "lateral relief from a yellow penalty area". What we are discussing is really a specific case of back-on-the-line (BOL) relief.

Using the word "lateral" infers something that isn't available for yellow. Remember that everyone here doesn't have English as their native language.

[fairways4life]

Fair enough. But in my defense, I am saying "essentially" lateral relief. Because that's "essentially" what it amounts to.

 

In any case, anyone that has been following the thread should know exactly what is being discussed. Especially the people that have been involved in the conversation. There's even been diagrams. If it isn't clear by now I can't help you.

[rogolf]

Fair enough. But in my defense, I am saying "essentially" lateral relief. Because that's "essentially" what it amounts to.

 

In any case, anyone that has been following the thread should know exactly what is being discussed. Especially the people that have been involved in the conversation. There's even been diagrams. If it isn't clear by now I can't help you.

I don't need any help understanding the situation - I'm thinking of others.

[nsxguy]

I hadn't thought about it like this until you brought up this point ..... if, by definition, the reference point is defined as the "estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area," then that would leave me to believe that the reference point would always be located inside the penalty area because a ball is considered in the penalty area as soon as it touches the line. Not once it has completely crossed over.

 

Be careful now as you seem to be combining red and yellow penalty areas' Rules!!

 

In red PA the reference point MAY be the 'estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area' but it does not necessarily have to be that. But in Yellow PA that is never true but the reference point is a point on the line BEHIND the estimated point, which is 'the estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area'.

 

Wow, this discussions implies that the current Water Hazard Rule is by far way more simple than this new one of Penalty Areas...

 

You are right. After reading my post again, my rambling did not make much sense.

 

I think we've pretty much determined that this whole "using one club length to essentially take lateral relief from a yellow penalty" idea just remains up in the air. I went ahead and emailed the USGA rules inbox and got an automated reply about taking 3-5 business days or something to that effect. If and when I hear anything back I will post the reply here.

I'm seeing what I think is some unclear and confused language relating to red and yellow penalty areas.

 

Some facts are:

1) red penalty areas offer relief options that precisely match those that yellow offers. And they have one extra - lateral relief.

 

2) if you are taking BOL relief from red or yellow, the reference point is any BOL point (but such a point does not mean a relief area will be available from that reference point).

 

Not sure what you mean by BOL "point". There is a reference LINE going back from the point the ball last crossed (the "estimated point"). The reference point for YELLOW is where the player chooses to drop along the reference line. The reference point for RED is the "estimated point" the ball last crossed.

 

2nd part - don't understand what you mean by "such a point does not mean a relief area will be available from that reference point". The whole point of finding the reference point is to take the appropriate relief.

 

3) if you are taking BOL relief from red or yellow, the nearest reference point to the point where the ball last crossed the edge will be right next to it. It is in the PA by definition.

 

Right next to it ? You mean right behind it, no ?

 

 

4) when you take BOL relief from a RED PA, you create a relief area using the reference point. If you use the reference point right next to where ball last crossed the edge, it is highly likely the potential relief area (the semi-circle) will be larger than the available relief area (available relief area is that part of the potential area that is outside the PA).

 

BOL from RED PA you choose a 2nd reference point anywhere behind the 1st, as far back as you want. That then becomes the reference point for your relief area, 1 CL either side of the (now) RP.

 

 

5) Yellow PA offers precisely the same BOL relief as the red PA, so precisely the same potential relief area exists for BOL relief taken from that reference point closest to the point of last crossing the edge. The ONLY difference between this yellow and red relief is the available relief area (that part of the potential relief area that is not in the PA) will highly likely be much smaller for a yellow PA (or even zero) because it is likely to be much closer to 90 degrees to the line of the hole while red is likely to be much closer to parallel.

 

I keep trying to picture why it is "highly likely" that BOL relief area for a yellow PA would be smaller than a BOL RA for a red area.

 

 

My key point here is there is nothing in the published new rules that constrains BOL relief from being on the green side of the penalty area, regardless of whether we are talking red or yellow penalty areas. And red or yellow is irrelevant when we are comparing BOL relief taken from the reference point closest to where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA.

 

I agree and that's the crux of the issue we've come up with BUT the Rules DO give lateral relief options so if the estimated point the ball last crossed a RED PA then it is pretty clear the player can drop on the green side. The issue is whether or not he can do that for a YELLOW PA which NOW, he can not. One might think the principle of having to go BACK over the yellow hazard would have been kept in the new Rules and, if not, one might also wonder why it wasn't highlighted as a major(?) change.

 

 

Now I'll add one further observation. There is virtually zero difference, for red penalty area relief, between BOL relief and lateral relief for the first club length of the relief area (lateral relief is larger overall, because it is 2CL versus 1CL) when the BOL relief is taken from the closest possible point to where the ball last crossed the edge. The only difference in the first club-length is that there is the tiniest difference in the reference points. Lateral relief: reference point is precisely point of last crossing; BOL relief reperence point is immediately behind that point. AND BOTH REFERENCE POINTS ARE IN THE PENALTY AREA BY DEFINITION.

 

Don't see where the Red relief area is larger overall. Yellow RA is 1 CL either side of the RP, total of 2 CLs. Red RA is 2 CLs from the RP, also a total of 2 CLs. The depth of the RA is measured from the middle backwards, I assume 1 CL as well.

 

Speaking of which, I assume the DEPTH of the RA, behind the RP, is 1 CL, yes ? I can't seem to find that spelled out. And a semi-circle ? Wonder why they didn't just measure like a teeing ground, a rectangle, just to make it easier ? I can just see someone gaming someone else by saying, if the guy drops near one of the edges that he dropped outside the semi-circle. LOL

 

And again you say BOTH reference points (or at least the red one, 'cause the yellow one certainly ISN'T) are in the PA "by definition". Could you kindly point out that definition in the Rules ? Thanks.

 

This is what the published rules state. If Ruling Bodies did not intend for yellow PA BOL relief to be available from the green side of the PA, they need to issue some directives or make some rule changes. And also keep in mind, even now under the current rules BOL relief can be taken on the green side of a penalty area (water hazard) for the red ones.

 

Unless I'm mistaken which is a definite possibility, I think you may be adding to the confusion. See above in blue.

 

And as mentioned above,,,,,,,,, a MAIN issue here is whether or not the player can drop on the green side of a yellow PA.

 

One might think the principle of having to go over the yellow hazard would have been kept in the new Rules. If not one would have to wonder why it was not highlighted as a major(?) change. I mean why else would there BE a yellow PA then ? If one didn't have to hit back over it why wouldn't it just be a red PA ?

[rogolf]

I hadn't thought about it like this until you brought up this point ..... if, by definition, the reference point is defined as the "estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area," then that would leave me to believe that the reference point would always be located inside the penalty area because a ball is considered in the penalty area as soon as it touches the line. Not once it has completely crossed over.

 

Be careful now as you seem to be combining red and yellow penalty areas' Rules!!

 

In red PA the reference point MAY be the 'estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area' but it does not necessarily have to be that. But in Yellow PA that is never true but the reference point is a point on the line BEHIND the estimated point, which is 'the estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area'.

 

Wow, this discussions implies that the current Water Hazard Rule is by far way more simple than this new one of Penalty Areas...

 

You are right. After reading my post again, my rambling did not make much sense.

 

I think we've pretty much determined that this whole "using one club length to essentially take lateral relief from a yellow penalty" idea just remains up in the air. I went ahead and emailed the USGA rules inbox and got an automated reply about taking 3-5 business days or something to that effect. If and when I hear anything back I will post the reply here.

I'm seeing what I think is some unclear and confused language relating to red and yellow penalty areas.

 

Some facts are:

1) red penalty areas offer relief options that precisely match those that yellow offers. And they have one extra - lateral relief.

 

2) if you are taking BOL relief from red or yellow, the reference point is any BOL point (but such a point does not mean a relief area will be available from that reference point).

 

Not sure what you mean by BOL "point". There is a reference LINE going back from the point the ball last crossed (the "estimated point"). The reference point for YELLOW is where the player chooses to drop along the reference line. The reference point for RED is the "estimated point" the ball last crossed.

 

2nd part - don't understand what you mean by "such a point does not mean a relief area will be available from that reference point". The whole point of finding the reference point is to take the appropriate relief.

 

3) if you are taking BOL relief from red or yellow, the nearest reference point to the point where the ball last crossed the edge will be right next to it. It is in the PA by definition.

 

Right next to it ? You mean right behind it, no ?

 

 

4) when you take BOL relief from a RED PA, you create a relief area using the reference point. If you use the reference point right next to where ball last crossed the edge, it is highly likely the potential relief area (the semi-circle) will be larger than the available relief area (available relief area is that part of the potential area that is outside the PA).

 

BOL from RED PA you choose a 2nd reference point anywhere behind the 1st, as far back as you want. That then becomes the reference point for your relief area, 1 CL either side of the (now) RP.

 

 

5) Yellow PA offers precisely the same BOL relief as the red PA, so precisely the same potential relief area exists for BOL relief taken from that reference point closest to the point of last crossing the edge. The ONLY difference between this yellow and red relief is the available relief area (that part of the potential relief area that is not in the PA) will highly likely be much smaller for a yellow PA (or even zero) because it is likely to be much closer to 90 degrees to the line of the hole while red is likely to be much closer to parallel.

 

I keep trying to picture why it is "highly likely" that BOL relief area for a yellow PA would be smaller than a BOL RA for a red area.

 

 

My key point here is there is nothing in the published new rules that constrains BOL relief from being on the green side of the penalty area, regardless of whether we are talking red or yellow penalty areas. And red or yellow is irrelevant when we are comparing BOL relief taken from the reference point closest to where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA.

 

I agree and that's the crux of the issue we've come up with BUT the Rules DO give lateral relief options so if the estimated point the ball last crossed a RED PA then it is pretty clear the player can drop on the green side. The issue is whether or not he can do that for a YELLOW PA which NOW, he can not. One might think the principle of having to go BACK over the yellow hazard would have been kept in the new Rules and, if not, one might also wonder why it wasn't highlighted as a major(?) change.

 

 

Now I'll add one further observation. There is virtually zero difference, for red penalty area relief, between BOL relief and lateral relief for the first club length of the relief area (lateral relief is larger overall, because it is 2CL versus 1CL) when the BOL relief is taken from the closest possible point to where the ball last crossed the edge. The only difference in the first club-length is that there is the tiniest difference in the reference points. Lateral relief: reference point is precisely point of last crossing; BOL relief reperence point is immediately behind that point. AND BOTH REFERENCE POINTS ARE IN THE PENALTY AREA BY DEFINITION.

 

Don't see where the Red relief area is larger overall. Yellow RA is 1 CL either side of the RP, total of 2 CLs. Red RA is 2 CLs from the RP, also a total of 2 CLs. The depth of the RA is measured from the middle backwards, I assume 1 CL as well.

 

Speaking of which, I assume the DEPTH of the RA, behind the RP, is 1 CL, yes ? I can't seem to find that spelled out. And a semi-circle ? Wonder why they didn't just measure like a teeing ground, a rectangle, just to make it easier ? I can just see someone gaming someone else by saying, if the guy drops near one of the edges that he dropped outside the semi-circle. LOL

 

And again you say BOTH reference points (or at least the red one, 'cause the yellow one certainly ISN'T) are in the PA "by definition". Could you kindly point out that definition in the Rules ? Thanks.

 

This is what the published rules state. If Ruling Bodies did not intend for yellow PA BOL relief to be available from the green side of the PA, they need to issue some directives or make some rule changes. And also keep in mind, even now under the current rules BOL relief can be taken on the green side of a penalty area (water hazard) for the red ones.

 

Unless I'm mistaken which is a definite possibility, I think you may be adding to the confusion. See above in blue.

 

And as mentioned above,,,,,,,,, a MAIN issue here is whether or not the player can drop on the green side of a yellow PA.

 

One might think the principle of having to go over the yellow hazard would have been kept in the new Rules. If not one would have to wonder why it was not highlighted as a major(?) change. I mean why else would there BE a yellow PA then ? If one didn't have to hit back over it why wouldn't it just be a red PA ?

You're generalizing. Think of specific examples where the Rules might permit it, such as to the right of the 12th green at Augusta after the ball has rolled back into the penalty area on the green side. There might be part of the relief area for BOL which is outside the penalty area, provided that the reference point for measuring the one club-length can be in the penalty area on the green side.

[nsxguy]

I'm seeing what I think is some unclear and confused language relating to red and yellow penalty areas.

 

Some facts are:

1) red penalty areas offer relief options that precisely match those that yellow offers. And they have one extra - lateral relief.

 

2) if you are taking BOL relief from red or yellow, the reference point is any BOL point (but such a point does not mean a relief area will be available from that reference point).

 

Not sure what you mean by BOL "point". There is a reference LINE going back from the point the ball last crossed (the "estimated point"). The reference point for YELLOW is where the player chooses to drop along the reference line. The reference point for RED is the "estimated point" the ball last crossed.

 

2nd part - don't understand what you mean by "such a point does not mean a relief area will be available from that reference point". The whole point of finding the reference point is to take the appropriate relief.

 

3) if you are taking BOL relief from red or yellow, the nearest reference point to the point where the ball last crossed the edge will be right next to it. It is in the PA by definition.

 

Right next to it ? You mean right behind it, no ?

 

 

4) when you take BOL relief from a RED PA, you create a relief area using the reference point. If you use the reference point right next to where ball last crossed the edge, it is highly likely the potential relief area (the semi-circle) will be larger than the available relief area (available relief area is that part of the potential area that is outside the PA).

 

BOL from RED PA you choose a 2nd reference point anywhere behind the 1st, as far back as you want. That then becomes the reference point for your relief area, 1 CL either side of the (now) RP.

 

 

5) Yellow PA offers precisely the same BOL relief as the red PA, so precisely the same potential relief area exists for BOL relief taken from that reference point closest to the point of last crossing the edge. The ONLY difference between this yellow and red relief is the available relief area (that part of the potential relief area that is not in the PA) will highly likely be much smaller for a yellow PA (or even zero) because it is likely to be much closer to 90 degrees to the line of the hole while red is likely to be much closer to parallel.

 

I keep trying to picture why it is "highly likely" that BOL relief area for a yellow PA would be smaller than a BOL RA for a red area.

 

 

My key point here is there is nothing in the published new rules that constrains BOL relief from being on the green side of the penalty area, regardless of whether we are talking red or yellow penalty areas. And red or yellow is irrelevant when we are comparing BOL relief taken from the reference point closest to where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA.

 

I agree and that's the crux of the issue we've come up with BUT the Rules DO give lateral relief options so if the estimated point the ball last crossed a RED PA then it is pretty clear the player can drop on the green side. The issue is whether or not he can do that for a YELLOW PA which NOW, he can not. One might think the principle of having to go BACK over the yellow hazard would have been kept in the new Rules and, if not, one might also wonder why it wasn't highlighted as a major(?) change.

 

 

Now I'll add one further observation. There is virtually zero difference, for red penalty area relief, between BOL relief and lateral relief for the first club length of the relief area (lateral relief is larger overall, because it is 2CL versus 1CL) when the BOL relief is taken from the closest possible point to where the ball last crossed the edge. The only difference in the first club-length is that there is the tiniest difference in the reference points. Lateral relief: reference point is precisely point of last crossing; BOL relief reperence point is immediately behind that point. AND BOTH REFERENCE POINTS ARE IN THE PENALTY AREA BY DEFINITION.

 

Don't see where the Red relief area is larger overall. Yellow RA is 1 CL either side of the RP, total of 2 CLs. Red RA is 2 CLs from the RP, also a total of 2 CLs. The depth of the RA is measured from the middle backwards, I assume 1 CL as well.

 

Speaking of which, I assume the DEPTH of the RA, behind the RP, is 1 CL, yes ? I can't seem to find that spelled out. And a semi-circle ? Wonder why they didn't just measure like a teeing ground, a rectangle, just to make it easier ? I can just see someone gaming someone else by saying, if the guy drops near one of the edges that he dropped outside the semi-circle. LOL

 

And again you say BOTH reference points (or at least the red one, 'cause the yellow one certainly ISN'T) are in the PA "by definition". Could you kindly point out that definition in the Rules ? Thanks.

 

This is what the published rules state. If Ruling Bodies did not intend for yellow PA BOL relief to be available from the green side of the PA, they need to issue some directives or make some rule changes. And also keep in mind, even now under the current rules BOL relief can be taken on the green side of a penalty area (water hazard) for the red ones.

 

Unless I'm mistaken which is a definite possibility, I think you may be adding to the confusion. See above in blue.

 

And as mentioned above,,,,,,,,, a MAIN issue here is whether or not the player can drop on the green side of a yellow PA.

 

One might think the principle of having to go over the yellow hazard would have been kept in the new Rules. If not one would have to wonder why it was not highlighted as a major(?) change. I mean why else would there BE a yellow PA then ? If one didn't have to hit back over it why wouldn't it just be a red PA ?

You're generalizing. Think of specific examples where the Rules might permit it, such as to the right of the 12th green at Augusta after the ball has rolled back into the penalty area on the green side. There might be part of the relief area for BOL which is outside the penalty area, provided that the reference point for measuring the one club-length can be in the penalty area on the green side.

 

My point is, as per the picture of the 12th at Augusta previously posted, that TODAY there is no question the player would have had to hit from the TEE side and go back over the water again.

 

It is proposed by fairways, that in 2 weeks the player would be able to hit from the green side of the water as per that mock up photo.

 

My point is, if that was really meant to be the case (and I don't think it is),

 

Today, even a lot of HIGH handicappers and social players know you have to drop behind a yellow water hazard. If that's no longer (always) the case why wouldn't that have been pointed out as a major change ?

[Shilgy]

You do not now have to drop behind a yellow hazard.... Using the point the ball last crossed you have an line you go back on keeping that spot between you and the pin. Sometimes that gives you the relief that does not require you to hit over the hazard again. It may seem incorrect but it is not always wrong.

[nsxguy]

You do not now have to drop behind a yellow hazard.... Using the point the ball last crossed you have an line you go back on keeping that spot between you and the pin. Sometimes that gives you the relief that does not require you to hit over the hazard again. It may seem incorrect but it is not always wrong.

 

Personally I have never encountered a yellow hazard that had anywhere to drop without going back over it.

 

I don't pretend to be a Rules expert. And I guess I don't understand the situation you're referring to as the Rule says "b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped"

 

But that's not my point anyway.

 

My point is, as I explained just before, is about the new Rules and the PICTURE mock up and whether or not that drop would NOW be allowed.

[Shilgy]

You do not now have to drop behind a yellow hazard.... Using the point the ball last crossed you have an line you go back on keeping that spot between you and the pin. Sometimes that gives you the relief that does not require you to hit over the hazard again. It may seem incorrect but it is not always wrong.

 

Personally I have never encountered a yellow hazard that had anywhere to drop without going back over it.

 

I don't pretend to be a Rules expert. And I guess I don't understand the situation you're referring to as the Rule says "b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped"

 

But that's not my point anyway.

 

My point is, as I explained just before, is about the new Rules and the PICTURE mock up and whether or not that drop would NOW be allowed.

Let me ask you this. Based on the picture you are referring to where would you drop now? With a yellow hazard you can go back to the last place you played from or keep that spot between you and the pin and go back on that line. If, because of an odd pin position/hazard layout that was the line where else could you go?

[fairways4life]

You do not now have to drop behind a yellow hazard.... Using the point the ball last crossed you have an line you go back on keeping that spot between you and the pin. Sometimes that gives you the relief that does not require you to hit over the hazard again. It may seem incorrect but it is not always wrong.

 

Personally I have never encountered a yellow hazard that had anywhere to drop without going back over it.

 

I don't pretend to be a Rules expert. And I guess I don't understand the situation you're referring to as the Rule says "b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped"

 

But that's not my point anyway.

 

My point is, as I explained just before, is about the new Rules and the PICTURE mock up and whether or not that drop would NOW be allowed.

Let me ask you this. Based on the picture you are referring to where would you drop now? With a yellow hazard you can go back to the last place you played from or keep that spot between you and the pin and go back on that line. If, because of an odd pin position/hazard layout that was the line where else could you go?

 

What's being discussed is that under the 2019 rules, you are now allowed one club length in either direction of the imaginary line (the straight line back option). The allowance of this one club length does not exist in the old rules, so in the Augusta example, there would be no way to drop on the green side of the water under the old rules.

 

However, under the 2019 rules, you could now use this one club length to your advantage by establishing your reference point inside the penalty area (an inch or so behind where the ball crossed the yellow line), and then moving one club length to the side (no closer to the hole, and outside of the penalty area) to find a drop area on the green side of the water.

 

(Remember that we are talking about balls that carry the water but then roll back in it from the green side. Not balls that are just fatted right into the water from the tee side.)

 

So to sum it up, if your ball carried Rae's Creek but then rolled back down the slope and into the water, your options are:

 

2018 (old) rules:

1. Replay from the tee
   
2. Take a straight line drop from the tee side of the water
   
3. Use a drop zone (if one was offered)
   
4. Play it as it lies (unlikely on that hole but still technically an option)
   

 

2019 (new rules):

1. Replay from tee
   
2. Take a straight line drop from the tee side of the water
   
3. Use a drop zone (if offered)
   
4. Play it as it lies
   
5. Use the new one club length rule to drop on the green side of the water. You are still technically just using the "straight line through" option but the addition of the one club length allows you to take that straight line drop on the green side instead of the tee side.
   

In 2019, the "straight line" option actually becomes a "straight line plus a couple feet to either side" option because they are now allowing you to move a club length away from that line to make your drop. So in some cases it will essentially give you an additional drop option that did not exist under the old rules.

[rogolf]

You do not now have to drop behind a yellow hazard.... Using the point the ball last crossed you have an line you go back on keeping that spot between you and the pin. Sometimes that gives you the relief that does not require you to hit over the hazard again. It may seem incorrect but it is not always wrong.

 

Personally I have never encountered a yellow hazard that had anywhere to drop without going back over it.

 

I don't pretend to be a Rules expert. And I guess I don't understand the situation you're referring to as the Rule says "b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped"

 

But that's not my point anyway.

 

My point is, as I explained just before, is about the new Rules and the PICTURE mock up and whether or not that drop would NOW be allowed.

Let me ask you this. Based on the picture you are referring to where would you drop now? With a yellow hazard you can go back to the last place you played from or keep that spot between you and the pin and go back on that line. If, because of an odd pin position/hazard layout that was the line where else could you go?

 

What's being discussed is that under the 2019 rules, you are now allowed one club length in either direction of the imaginary line (the straight line back option). The allowance of this one club length does not exist in the old rules, so in the Augusta example, there would be no way to drop on the green side of the water under the old rules.

 

However, under the 2019 rules, you could now use this one club length to your advantage by establishing your reference point inside the penalty area (an inch or so behind where the ball crossed the yellow line), and then moving one club length to the side (no closer to the hole, and outside of the penalty area) to find a drop area on the green side of the water.

 

(Remember that we are talking about balls that carry the water but then roll back in it from the green side. Not balls that are just fatted right into the water from the tee side.)

 

So to sum it up, if your ball carried Rae's Creek but then rolled back down the slope and into the water, your options are:

 

2018 (old) rules:

1. Replay from the tee
   
2. Take a straight line drop from the tee side of the water
   
3. Use a drop zone (if one was offered)
   
4. Play it as it lies (unlikely on that hole but still technically an option)
   

 

2019 (new rules):

1. Replay from tee
   
2. Take a straight line drop from the tee side of the water
   
3. Use a drop zone (if offered)
   
4. Play it as it lies
   
5. Use the new one club length rule to drop on the green side of the water. You are still technically just using the "straight line through" option but the addition of the one club length allows you to take that straight line drop on the green side instead of the tee side.
   

In 2019, the "straight line" option actually becomes a "straight line plus a couple feet to either side" option because they are now allowing you to move a club length away from that line to make your drop. So in some cases it will essentially give you an additional drop option that did not exist under the old rules.

Not really another drop "option", just a drop in an acceptable relief area according to the new Rules. (I know it seems like semantics, but we need to keep the terminology consistent with the Rules)

[Colin L]

Fair enough. But in my defense, I am saying "essentially" lateral relief. Because that's "essentially" what it amounts to.

 

In any case, anyone that has been following the thread should know exactly what is being discussed. Especially the people that have been involved in the conversation. There's even been diagrams. If it isn't clear by now I can't help you.

 

Your concept of lateral relief from a yellow penalty area is not helpful in the first instance (a polite way of saying it is unnecessarily misleading) and although it may be familiar to the readers of this thread, it won't necessarily be familiar to the USGA person answering your query. Lateral relief has a particular meaning and it is specifically not available if your ball is in a yellow penalty area. It is "essentially" wrong to use it of a yellow penalty area.

 

What you are looking for from the USGA to sort out this entire discussion can be put in a simple question: "Can you confirm that a player may choose a reference point for back on the line relief from a penalty area that is in the penalty area." That will get you an equally simple answer of "Yes" or "No".

 

Since nobody has come up with any reference to words in the Rules which indicate "No", I'd put money (well, maybe as a cautious Scot, no more than a beer) on the answer being "Yes".

 

That is further supported by the recently issued clarification of Rule 16.3b which clearly show that a reference point does not have to be in the general area and could therefore be in any of the other 4 parts of the course including a penalty area.:

 

If a player's ball is embedded in the general area but neither the reference point nor any part of the course within one club-length of the reference point is in the general area .....

[Mr. Bean]

One might think the principle of having to go over the yellow hazard would have been kept in the new Rules. If not one would have to wonder why it was not highlighted as a major(?) change. I mean why else would there BE a yellow PA then ? If one didn't have to hit back over it why wouldn't it just be a red PA ?

You're generalizing. Think of specific examples where the Rules might permit it, such as to the right of the 12th green at Augusta after the ball has rolled back into the penalty area on the green side. There might be part of the relief area for BOL which is outside the penalty area, provided that the reference point for measuring the one club-length can be in the penalty area on the green side.

 

I am asking the same question as nsxguy. Why to have yellow PA's if you are not supposed to play over them? And next question follows: does it seem fair and consistent if, depending on the shot you managed to make, you are sometimes able to drop on the green side and sometimes not, on the same hole (eg. Augusta #12)?

 

The way I look at it is that the entire concept of yellow PA disappears and only makes playing not only more confusing but also slower if one is allowed to go over a yellow PA by carrying a ball. IMO that kind of complicating would be very much contrary to the targets of this huge change of Rules.

[ruca]

One might think the principle of having to go over the yellow hazard would have been kept in the new Rules. If not one would have to wonder why it was not highlighted as a major(?) change. I mean why else would there BE a yellow PA then ? If one didn't have to hit back over it why wouldn't it just be a red PA ?

You're generalizing. Think of specific examples where the Rules might permit it, such as to the right of the 12th green at Augusta after the ball has rolled back into the penalty area on the green side. There might be part of the relief area for BOL which is outside the penalty area, provided that the reference point for measuring the one club-length can be in the penalty area on the green side.

 

I am asking the same question as nsxguy. Why to have yellow PA's if you are not supposed to play over them? And next question follows: does it seem fair and consistent if, depending on the shot you managed to make, you are sometimes able to drop on the green side and sometimes not, on the same hole (eg. Augusta #12)?

 

The way I look at it is that the entire concept of yellow PA disappears and only makes playing not only more confusing but also slower if one is allowed to go over a yellow PA by carrying a ball. IMO that kind of complicating would be very much contrary to the targets of this huge change of Rules.

 

I think most of us agree with your point, which is why the rules bodies either need to change the wording, or confirm there has been a change to the way yellow relief happens.

[Sawgrass]

 

If a player's ball is embedded in the general area but neither the reference point nor any part of the course within one club-length of the reference point is in the general area .....

 

Yes, this is yet another implication that a reference point in one area of the course can provide a relief area in another area of the course.

[Mr. Bean]

If a player's ball is embedded in the general area but neither the reference point nor any part of the course within one club-length of the reference point is in the general area .....

 

Yes, this is yet another implication that a reference point in one area of the course can provide a relief area in another area of the course.

 

I had the impression that this new 'correction' meant that there is no free relief area in such a case. With no relief area can there be a reference point?

 

I fail to see the connection, especially to the yellow PA case.

 

Today I had a chat with one of our national referees who was present in St. Andrews early this year where national associations' selected members were explained the changes to come. Also it was explained why some changes that were earlier considered to be part of the Rules were discarded. One of those is the idea of all Penalty Areas to be red. R&A stated that there are certain reasons why red PA could give a player an undeserved advantage by changing the character of certain types of holes and thus yellow PA's were decided to be preserved along with the red ones.

 

On that occasion R&A presented two examples of such holes that would change their character towards undesired direction. One was the St. Andrews Old Course hole #1 and the other Augusta hole #12. With the omission of opposite margin relief Old Course #1 is no longer an issue but Augusta #12 remains...

[fairways4life]

If a player's ball is embedded in the general area but neither the reference point nor any part of the course within one club-length of the reference point is in the general area .....

 

Yes, this is yet another implication that a reference point in one area of the course can provide a relief area in another area of the course.

 

I had the impression that this new 'correction' meant that there is no free relief area in such a case. With no relief area can there be a reference point?

 

I fail to see the connection, especially to the yellow PA case.

 

Today I had a chat with one of our national referees who was present in St. Andrews early this year where national associations' selected members were explained the changes to come. Also it was explained why some changes that were earlier considered to be part of the Rules were discarded. One of those is the idea of all Penalty Areas to be red. R&A stated that there are certain reasons why red PA could give a player an undeserved advantage by changing the character of certain types of holes and thus yellow PA's were decided to be preserved along with the red ones.

 

On that occasion R&A presented two examples of such holes that would change their character towards undesired direction. One was the St. Andrews Old Course hole #1 and the other Augusta hole #12. With the omission of opposite margin relief Old Course #1 is no longer an issue but Augusta #12 remains...

 

Did you ask him about the yellow penalty area scenario that we've been discussing here?

[rogolf]

If a player's ball is embedded in the general area but neither the reference point nor any part of the course within one club-length of the reference point is in the general area .....

 

Yes, this is yet another implication that a reference point in one area of the course can provide a relief area in another area of the course.

 

I had the impression that this new 'correction' meant that there is no free relief area in such a case. With no relief area can there be a reference point?

 

I fail to see the connection, especially to the yellow PA case.

 

Today I had a chat with one of our national referees who was present in St. Andrews early this year where national associations' selected members were explained the changes to come. Also it was explained why some changes that were earlier considered to be part of the Rules were discarded. One of those is the idea of all Penalty Areas to be red. R&A stated that there are certain reasons why red PA could give a player an undeserved advantage by changing the character of certain types of holes and thus yellow PA's were decided to be preserved along with the red ones.

 

On that occasion R&A presented two examples of such holes that would change their character towards undesired direction. One was the St. Andrews Old Course hole #1 and the other Augusta hole #12. With the omission of opposite margin relief Old Course #1 is no longer an issue but Augusta #12 remains...

 

I think that Old Course #1 (Swilcan Burn) is still an issue due to the varying direction/location of the burn relative to the hole location and predict that both of these holes will still be marked with yellow penalty areas.

[Mr. Bean]

If a player's ball is embedded in the general area but neither the reference point nor any part of the course within one club-length of the reference point is in the general area .....

 

Yes, this is yet another implication that a reference point in one area of the course can provide a relief area in another area of the course.

 

I had the impression that this new 'correction' meant that there is no free relief area in such a case. With no relief area can there be a reference point?

 

I fail to see the connection, especially to the yellow PA case.

 

Today I had a chat with one of our national referees who was present in St. Andrews early this year where national associations' selected members were explained the changes to come. Also it was explained why some changes that were earlier considered to be part of the Rules were discarded. One of those is the idea of all Penalty Areas to be red. R&A stated that there are certain reasons why red PA could give a player an undeserved advantage by changing the character of certain types of holes and thus yellow PA's were decided to be preserved along with the red ones.

 

On that occasion R&A presented two examples of such holes that would change their character towards undesired direction. One was the St. Andrews Old Course hole #1 and the other Augusta hole #12. With the omission of opposite margin relief Old Course #1 is no longer an issue but Augusta #12 remains...

 

Did you ask him about the yellow penalty area scenario that we've been discussing here?

 

FWIW, ALL the referees around here say that a reference point CANNOT be in the same PA one is taking relief from, also those who are currently members of various EGA Committees.

[Sawgrass]

 

FWIW, ALL the referees around here say that a reference point CANNOT be in the same PA one is taking relief from, also those who are currently members of various EGA Committees.

Toss them a rulebook and have them show you why you cannot!

[Mr. Bean]

I think that Old Course #1 (Swilcan Burn) is still an issue due to the varying direction/location of the burn relative to the hole location and predict that both of these holes will still be marked with yellow penalty areas.

 

I go along with your prediction of the marking, but what would be the point if one could still drop on the green side of the Burn..?