2019 Rules of Golf

[antip]

/quote]I'm seeing what I think is some unclear and confused language relating to red and yellow penalty areas.

 

Some facts are:

1) red penalty areas offer relief options that precisely match those that yellow offers. And they have one extra - lateral relief.

 

2) if you are taking BOL relief from red or yellow, the reference point is any BOL point (but such a point does not mean a relief area will be available from that reference point).

 

Not sure what you mean by BOL "point". There is a reference LINE going back from the point the ball last crossed (the "estimated point"). The reference point for YELLOW is where the player chooses to drop along the reference line. The reference point for RED is the "estimated point" the ball last crossed.

 

2nd part - don't understand what you mean by "such a point does not mean a relief area will be available from that reference point". The whole point of finding the reference point is to take the appropriate relief.

 

 

 

3) if you are taking BOL relief from red or yellow, the nearest reference point to the point where the ball last crossed the edge will be right next to it. It is in the PA by definition.

 

Right next to it ? You mean right behind it, no ?

 

 

4) when you take BOL relief from a RED PA, you create a relief area using the reference point. If you use the reference point right next to where ball last crossed the edge, it is highly likely the potential relief area (the semi-circle) will be larger than the available relief area (available relief area is that part of the potential area that is outside the PA).

 

BOL from RED PA you choose a 2nd reference point anywhere behind the 1st, as far back as you want. That then becomes the reference point for your relief area, 1 CL either side of the (now) RP.

 

 

5) Yellow PA offers precisely the same BOL relief as the red PA, so precisely the same potential relief area exists for BOL relief taken from that reference point closest to the point of last crossing the edge. The ONLY difference between this yellow and red relief is the available relief area (that part of the potential relief area that is not in the PA) will highly likely be much smaller for a yellow PA (or even zero) because it is likely to be much closer to 90 degrees to the line of the hole while red is likely to be much closer to parallel.

 

I keep trying to picture why it is "highly likely" that BOL relief area for a yellow PA would be smaller than a BOL RA for a red area.

 

 

My key point here is there is nothing in the published new rules that constrains BOL relief from being on the green side of the penalty area, regardless of whether we are talking red or yellow penalty areas. And red or yellow is irrelevant when we are comparing BOL relief taken from the reference point closest to where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA.

 

I agree and that's the crux of the issue we've come up with BUT the Rules DO give lateral relief options so if the estimated point the ball last crossed a RED PA then it is pretty clear the player can drop on the green side. The issue is whether or not he can do that for a YELLOW PA which NOW, he can not. One might think the principle of having to go BACK over the yellow hazard would have been kept in the new Rules and, if not, one might also wonder why it wasn't highlighted as a major(?) change.

 

 

Now I'll add one further observation. There is virtually zero difference, for red penalty area relief, between BOL relief and lateral relief for the first club length of the relief area (lateral relief is larger overall, because it is 2CL versus 1CL) when the BOL relief is taken from the closest possible point to where the ball last crossed the edge. The only difference in the first club-length is that there is the tiniest difference in the reference points. Lateral relief: reference point is precisely point of last crossing; BOL relief reperence point is immediately behind that point. AND BOTH REFERENCE POINTS ARE IN THE PENALTY AREA BY DEFINITION.

 

Don't see where the Red relief area is larger overall. Yellow RA is 1 CL either side of the RP, total of 2 CLs. Red RA is 2 CLs from the RP, also a total of 2 CLs. The depth of the RA is measured from the middle backwards, I assume 1 CL as well.

 

Speaking of which, I assume the DEPTH of the RA, behind the RP, is 1 CL, yes ? I can't seem to find that spelled out. And a semi-circle ? Wonder why they didn't just measure like a teeing ground, a rectangle, just to make it easier ? I can just see someone gaming someone else by saying, if the guy drops near one of the edges that he dropped outside the semi-circle. LOL

 

And again you say BOTH reference points (or at least the red one, 'cause the yellow one certainly ISN'T) are in the PA "by definition". Could you kindly point out that definition in the Rules ? Thanks.

 

This is what the published rules state. If Ruling Bodies did not intend for yellow PA BOL relief to be available from the green side of the PA, they need to issue some directives or make some rule changes. And also keep in mind, even now under the current rules BOL relief can be taken on the green side of a penalty area (water hazard) for the red ones.

 

Unless I'm mistaken which is a definite possibility, I think you may be adding to the confusion. See above in blue.

 

And as mentioned above,,,,,,,,, a MAIN issue here is whether or not the player can drop on the green side of a yellow PA.

 

One might think the principle of having to go over the yellow hazard would have been kept in the new Rules. If not one would have to wonder why it was not highlighted as a major(?) change. I mean why else would there BE a yellow PA then ? If one didn't have to hit back over it why wouldn't it just be a red PA ?

 

There is probably too much to explain here to do it in one go but on your queries on 2. BOL point was not clear, I agree, I meant reference point on the BOL line. A key theme of my post was that if your ball has crossed a PA and come 'back' into it, that is, the point where you last crossed the edge is on the green side of a PA, AND you take BOL relief using a reference point immediately behind where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA, it makes no difference it is a red or yellow PA because precisely the same processes apply.

 

You misunderstand BOL relief from a red PA if you think it uses a different reference point. The ONLY time the point of last crossing the edge of the PA is relevant for red PA relief is when you take lateral relief (17.1d(3)).

 

I'm a little confused (again). First (bolded) part says the PILC (point it last crossed) is how you determine BOL relief for BOTH PAs. I agree.

 

But in the 2nd (bolded) part you believe I am confused. For the yellow PA there are 2 possible reference points. One is the spot the player chooses along the reference LINE where he takes his relief. The reference LINE is drawn straight back from the flag through the PILC as far as the player wants to go. The other RP is the original spot (S&D). SEE NEW WORDING BELOW. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT POSSIBLE YELLOW BOL OPTIONS (WHICH ARE LIMITLESS) ONLY ONE VERY SPECIFIC OPTION OF RIGHT BEHIND THE POINT OF LAST CROSSING.

 

For the RED PA there are 3 possible reference points. Same 2 as the yellow. The 3rd one IS the PILC. Again, the RP is the point from which one takes their relief. AGREE, AGAIN, I SPELL OUT AGAIN BELOW JUST WHAT I AM COMPARING WITH WHAT

 

 

More generally, reference points are the tool to proceeding under many rules, but the reference point does not guarantee that a relief area exists that complies with the restrictions in that rule.

 

For No.3, yes I mean right behind it.

 

On No. 4, I don't get your point. I am only comparing red and yellow PA, player taking BOL relief AND using a reference point immediately behind where the ball last crossed the edge. My post is only talking of this specific situation, and seeking to identify the implications. Specifically, red and yellow PAs are identical in this situation, so this thread's discussion of yellow PA is inappropriately narrow.

 

I guess I'm just not understanding your point either. You suggest 1 relief area would likely be smaller than the other with 2 options of the red PA. I don't understand why. Take BOL, go back and choose a RP and it's 1 CL either side, total of 2 Cls (and the semi-circle). Use the PILC as the RP and you get 2 CLs to the side. Same-same THERE IS A MISUNDERSTANDING OF WHAT I AM COMPARING HERE, SO I'VE REPEATED IT BELOW.

 

 

On No 5, because yellow PAs cross the line of play and red PA are mostly parallel to the line of play. Simple geometry after that.

 

Well, OK, I see where you're going here. I guess BOL relief from a parallel red area would often not have the available room for a "full" RA. I was thinking more of creeks crossing the fairway and "winding" red PAs where the ball might crosse where there was ample room to drop behind but I guess what you say is true. In general BOL relief from a red PA would generally result in a smaller area. Then again, most(?) red relief would be of the lateral variety anyway. YES, NOW YOU ARE PICKING UP ON MY THEMES

 

Now dealing with the reference points being in the PA: I thought this was very straightforward. if it is Red PA and you are taking lateral relief (17.1d(3)), your reference point is where you last crossed the edge of the PA - so that crossing point is in the PA. Think red paint line, point where you last crossed is on the paint line. The paint line is in the PA. That is how the edge of the PA is defined. If it is either red or yellow PA and you are taking BOL relief from the point immediately behind where the ball last crossed the edge, that point also MUST be in the PA.

 

Don't think it's worth splitting hairs about whether the RP is IN the PA or not for the red. Makes virtually no difference. YET LOTS OF FOLK EARLIER WERE CLAIMING YOU CAN'T HAVE A REFERENCE POINT IN A PA. THAT IS EFFECTIVELY TRUE IN 2018 (BECAUSE BOL MUST BE TAKEN BEHIND THE PA) BUT IS UNTRUE IN 2019.

 

You said earlier though, it was IN the PA "by definition". Can you point me to that ? SEE EXPLANATION BELOW.

 

 

See above.

 

And in any case while I would agree that IF it was possible to take BOL relief on the green side of a yellow PA that PA was awfully irregularly shaped where the ball came back in, that is not the main "argument/issue" here.

 

It's whether or not lateral relief can be taken for the yellow PA on the green side of the PA.

 

And now that I look through it again I see it possibly WAS covered in the Rule although I can't see how ALL of us could have missed it -

 

Below Diagram #1 17.1.d (about yellow PA) it says "(3) Lateral Relief (Only for Red Penalty Area). When the ball last crossed the edge of a red penalty area, the player may drop the original ball or another ball in this lateral relief area (see Rule 14.3):"

There have been frequent crimes against the Rules committed on this topic earlier. There is no such thing under the Rules as 'lateral relief' from a yellow PA. This misunderstanding was contributed to by another earlier poster calling BOL relief in a PA as lateral relief. It is not, and can never be, lateral relief from a yellow PA, as the terms are used in the Rules. And the fastest possible way to lose people in a forum such as this is to invent your own word usage patterns.

 

Let me try to be clear what I am comparing with what.

Comparison 1: Assume ball enters PA from green side and the player takes BOL relief from a relief area established using a reference point that is immediately behind the point where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA. This relief area (assuming it exists - in many/most yellow PAs it will not exist) is identical regardless of whether the PA is yellow or red and that is the first comparison I was discussing. To be clear, everything is identical in this comparison: point of crossing, reference point and relief area. No post prior to my engagement on this issue displayed awareness that in this specific case/location for taking BOL relief in this way it is irrelevant whether the PA is red or yellow.

 

Comparison 2: This relates ONLY to red PA. Assume ball enters PA from green side and the player is considering lateral vs BOL relief and establishing a relief area as close as possible to where the ball last crossed the edge. The lateral relief uses point of last crossing as reference point and then two club lengths to identify the relief area. BOL uses reference point immediately behind the point of last crossing and then one club length relief area. My observation was that the BOL available relief area is simply a subset of the lateral relief area, with the minor difference that the reference points are very close but not identical.

 

Much of the earlier discussion was hung up on whether reference points could be in the PA. It's a simple answer: Yes. And every time you take lateral relief from a red PA OR BOL relief from a red or yellow PA WHERE THE BALL WENT IN FROM THE GREEN SIDE AND YOU USE A REFERENCE POINT FOR BOL RELIEF IMMEDIATELY BEHIND WHERE THE BALL LAST CROSSED THE EDGE, those reference points are in the PA.

 

You keep asking show me the definition. You need to join some dots here: the edge of the PA ends up above and below the ground; so the point where the ball crosses the edge is in the PA. So the reference point for red PA lateral relief is in the PA. Likewise, in my specific BOL example above (regardless whether it is red or yellow) the reference point is immediately behind the point of last crossing the edge of the PA so is also in the PA.

[Mr. Bean]

Mr Bean

There is zero change. The Interpretation you cite (to identify it correctly - Int 1.3c(4)/4)is an entirely different situation and nothing is changing. That interpretation deals with very specific elements (it is an adaptation of the situation in Int 1.3c(4)/2) and, most importantly, deals with unrelated acts. In that specific situation, failure to replace will produce a separate wrong place penalty. The simple nudge and fail to replace scenario are related acts, therefore that is general penalty only (not 1+2SP). This can't be repeated enough: NO rule has changed and NO interpretation has changed. RBs have simply responded (correctly) that many people were misapplying Int 1.3c(4)/4 to the simple nudge and fail to replace scenario.

 

If RBs could have the time over, I am certain they would have included something very close to the new clarification as an additional interpretation and avoided all this angst, which seems to have been particularly prevalent in Finland.

 

Before you go much further with your opinion, why don't you read current Rules 18-2 and 18-6 very carefully. Then come back and say again that nothing has changed in that respect. Because, nothing HAS changed, it is still only two penalty strokes if you lift your ball, fail to replace it and play from a wrong place.

 

EDIT: Just to clarify: Int 1.3c(4)/4 was incorrectly written as its content was against the text/spirit in Rule 9.4. As it is now corrected Rule 9.4 is pretty much identical to current Rules 18-2 and 18-6 (although I still miss a clarifying text such as in 18-6). AND Rule 9.4 does not make any difference whether movement of player's ball is deliberate or accidental.

[Mr. Bean]

Now dealing with the reference points being in the PA: I thought this was very straightforward. if it is Red PA and you are taking lateral relief (17.1d(3)), your reference point is where you last crossed the edge of the PA - so that crossing point is in the PA. Think red paint line, point where you last crossed is on the paint line. The paint line is in the PA. That is how the edge of the PA is defined. If it is either red or yellow PA and you are taking BOL relief from the point immediately behind where the ball last crossed the edge, that point also MUST be in the PA.

 

 

Are you really sure about that..?

 

Let us visit Augusta #12 one again. You hit your ball short and it lands in the middle of the pond. So, the point where your ball last crossed the yellow PA margin (point A) is on the tee side of the pond. Now, let us imagine a reference point to point A and call that reference point point B.

 

You say that this point B must be in the PA. But if point B would be in the PA that would be point A, i.e. the point where your ball last crossed the edge of that PA. Thus the reference point (B) must be outside the PA, otherwise it would be point A.

 

It is the same today with yellow Water Hazards in the described situation. You must drop your ball outside the WH thus further from the hole than the point where the ball last crossed the margin of that WH.

[Sawgrass]

 

Comparison 1: Assume ball enters PA from green side and the player takes BOL relief from a relief area established using a reference point that is immediately behind the point where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA. This relief area (assuming it exists - in many/most yellow PAs it will not exist) is identical regardless of whether the PA is yellow or red and that is the first comparison I was discussing.

 

I completely disagree that "many/most" yellow PAs will not provide a green-side segment of a BOL relief area for a ball that last crossed on the green side. If the arc of the yellow line at the point last crossed moves even slightly away from the hole (as it often does) and if you select a reference point just inside the PA, there will frequently be a place within 1 CL to drop -- particularly if you don't mind getting your feet wet when you take your next stroke. Having a hole on the extreme left or right of the green will often expand the useful portion of the relief area. (All of which assumes that this entire concept is legal, which I do.)

 

I have it on good authority that a team from the USGA is "sitting down" discussing this issue. I presume that whenever they again "stand up" there will have to be a meeting of minds with those from across the pond.

 

Wonder if the pond is marked yellow or red . . .

[Matt J]

Can we go back a few pages where I'm supposed to be grateful for all of the bureaucrats that thought of absolutely everything before revising the rules?

 

I guess I should go ahead and send my attorney a retainer to caddie for me this year. Lord knows eventually I'll need to take a knee high drop.

[Mr. Bean]

I have it on good authority that a team from the USGA is "sitting down" discussing this issue. I presume that whenever they again "stand up" there will have to be a meeting of minds with those from across the pond.

 

Wonder if the pond is marked yellow or red . . .

 

For bighitters it is yellow!

[Sawgrass]

Can we go back a few pages where I'm supposed to be grateful for all of the bureaucrats that thought of absolutely everything before revising the rules?

 

I guess I should go ahead and send my attorney a retainer to caddie for me this year. Lord knows eventually I'll need to take a knee high drop.

You need not be grateful, you are free to feel as frustrated as you choose.

 

But please don’t make up facts such as that the Ruling Bodies assured anyone that changes wouldn’t be required after such an enormous undertaking.

[nsxguy]

Comparison 1: Assume ball enters PA from green side and the player takes BOL relief from a relief area established using a reference point that is immediately behind the point where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA. This relief area (assuming it exists - in many/most yellow PAs it will not exist) is identical regardless of whether the PA is yellow or red and that is the first comparison I was discussing.

 

I completely disagree that "many/most" yellow PAs will not provide a green-side segment of a BOL relief area for a ball that last crossed on the green side. If the arc of the yellow line at the point last crossed moves even slightly away from the hole (as it often does) and if you select a reference point just inside the PA, there will frequently be a place within 1 CL to drop -- particularly if you don't mind getting your feet wet when you take your next stroke. Having a hole on the extreme left or right of the green will often expand the useful portion of the relief area. (All of which assumes that this entire concept is legal, which I do.)

 

I have it on good authority that a team from the USGA is "sitting down" discussing this issue. I presume that whenever they again "stand up" there will have to be a meeting of minds with those from across the pond.

 

Wonder if the pond is marked yellow or red . . .

 

I believe, but am not positive, Rae's Creek is yellow. IF it is red the lateral drop is possible.

 

But if it is indeed yellow, this is my "bet" (below) and I'm sticking with it - NO lateral relief.

 

The "estimated point" is the point last crossed. The "reference point" is literally a point of reference from where the relief area is measured.

 

 

It's whether or not lateral relief can be taken for the yellow PA on the green side of the PA.

 

And now that I look through it again I see it possibly WAS covered in the Rule although I can't see how ALL of us could have missed it -

 

Below Diagram #1 17.1.d (about yellow PA) it says "(3) Lateral Relief (Only for Red Penalty Area). When the ball last crossed the edge of a red penalty area, the player may drop the original ball or another ball in this lateral relief area (see Rule 14.3):"

[Colin L]

I believe, but am not positive, Rae's Creek is yellow. IF it is red the lateral drop is possible.

 

But if it is indeed yellow, this is my "bet" (below) and I'm sticking with it - NO lateral relief.

 

How often does it need to be said? There is no lateral relief from a yellow penalty area. You don't have to argue the point or stick with a view on the matter, it is a simple fact that wherever it is, Rae's Creek or any other golf course in the world, if a penalty area is marked yellow, you do not have the option of lateral relief from it.

[Sawgrass]

I believe, but am not positive, Rae's Creek is yellow. IF it is red the lateral drop is possible.

 

But if it is indeed yellow, this is my "bet" (below) and I'm sticking with it - NO lateral relief.

 

How often does it need to be said? There is no lateral relief from a yellow penalty area. You don't have to argue the point or stick with a view on the matter, it is a simple fact that wherever it is, Rae's Creek or any other golf course in the world, if a penalty area is marked yellow, you do not have the option of lateral relief from it.

Directed to no one in particular, in a modest effort to clarify this issue, I'll state that you may not take what is called "lateral relief" from a yellow penalty area, but you may drop "laterally" from a reference point associated with that yellow penalty area back-on-the-line.

[nsxguy]

I believe, but am not positive, Rae's Creek is yellow. IF it is red the lateral drop is possible.

 

But if it is indeed yellow, this is my "bet" (below) and I'm sticking with it - NO lateral relief.

 

How often does it need to be said? There is no lateral relief from a yellow penalty area. You don't have to argue the point or stick with a view on the matter, it is a simple fact that wherever it is, Rae's Creek or any other golf course in the world, if a penalty area is marked yellow, you do not have the option of lateral relief from it.

 

Excuse me Colin but on Page 7, when the issue was raised by fairways4life and illustrated with the 12th at Augusta, the argument was about this exact situation, dropping laterally, from a yellow PA.

 

Discussion ensued and resulted in emails written to the USGA and/or RANDA, about which no one has posted a reply yet, about this exact point.

 

And as recently as yesterday antip is (still) suggesting it CAN be taken laterally and whether or not a RP can be IN the (yellow) PA, which we also don't have clarification on.

 

If indeed the RP IS in the yellow PA directly where it crossed then we have conflicting "rules" as the RPO established the relief area and the RA can be 1 or 2 cls from that RP. This is primarily what leads me to believe that the RP can NOT be in the PA.

 

So it seems as though we're going in circles. :bb2:

 

Hence my "bet" that you (and I) are correct. No need to get upset.

 

Merry Christmas :hi:

[rogolf]

I believe, but am not positive, Rae's Creek is yellow. IF it is red the lateral drop is possible.

 

But if it is indeed yellow, this is my "bet" (below) and I'm sticking with it - NO lateral relief.

 

How often does it need to be said? There is no lateral relief from a yellow penalty area. You don't have to argue the point or stick with a view on the matter, it is a simple fact that wherever it is, Rae's Creek or any other golf course in the world, if a penalty area is marked yellow, you do not have the option of lateral relief from it.

Directed to no one in particular, in a modest effort to clarify this issue, I'll state that you may not take what is called "lateral relief" from a yellow penalty area, but you may drop "laterally" from a reference point associated with that yellow penalty area back-on-the-line.

Putting it another way - relief for the yellow penalty area is being taken as back-on-the-line (BOL) using a reference point immediately behind the point where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area. The permitted relief for the BOL option is to drop within one club-length of that reference point, no nearer the hole, but not within the same penalty area.

[Colin L]

@nxsguy

No worries. I don't get upset - well, not about rules matters! But I do hold to the importance of not confusing the precise terminology of those rules by using terms loosely in the context of a situation to which they don't apply. Lateral relief has a precise meaning and it is unhelpful to anyone trying to learn the rules if it, lateral or laterally is used of back on the line relief from a yellow penalty area.

 

We now have helpful consistency across the various situations in which we take relief, using the concept of a reference point from which a relief area is measured. The relief area for back on the line relief is the same distance to each side of the reference line. The infinite series of reference points and consequent relief areas is along that line which is certainly not lateral. It will always (dangerous word to use!) go through part of the penalty area. A line from where the ball crosses the edge of a red penalty does not go through the penalty area, but away from it to the side - hence laterally.

 

So, for the sake of clarity and simplicity, please don't talk about lateral relief or taking relief laterally from a yellow penalty area. It really is unhelpful.

 

 

These are the salient points in the discussion as I understand them:

 

1) In taking back on the line relief from a yellow penalty area, it is possible, under the rules as written, to choose a reference point in the penalty area such that there is a partial relief area outside it in the general area.

 

2) Where a ball has hit the ground beyond a yellow penalty area and bounced back into it, it would be possible in some instances to achieve that partial relief area on the hole side of the penalty area - a change from what we have been used to where we have had to drop behind a water hazard and play over it.

 

3) There is a debate about whether such a possibility is desirable, and Sawgrass tells us that his contacts have indicated the matter is under discussion by the USGA.

[antip]

Mr Bean

There is zero change. The Interpretation you cite (to identify it correctly - Int 1.3c(4)/4)is an entirely different situation and nothing is changing. That interpretation deals with very specific elements (it is an adaptation of the situation in Int 1.3c(4)/2) and, most importantly, deals with unrelated acts. In that specific situation, failure to replace will produce a separate wrong place penalty. The simple nudge and fail to replace scenario are related acts, therefore that is general penalty only (not 1+2SP). This can't be repeated enough: NO rule has changed and NO interpretation has changed. RBs have simply responded (correctly) that many people were misapplying Int 1.3c(4)/4 to the simple nudge and fail to replace scenario.

 

If RBs could have the time over, I am certain they would have included something very close to the new clarification as an additional interpretation and avoided all this angst, which seems to have been particularly prevalent in Finland.

 

Before you go much further with your opinion, why don't you read current Rules 18-2 and 18-6 very carefully. Then come back and say again that nothing has changed in that respect. Because, nothing HAS changed, it is still only two penalty strokes if you lift your ball, fail to replace it and play from a wrong place.

 

EDIT: Just to clarify: Int 1.3c(4)/4 was incorrectly written as its content was against the text/spirit in Rule 9.4. As it is now corrected Rule 9.4 is pretty much identical to current Rules 18-2 and 18-6 (although I still miss a clarifying text such as in 18-6). AND Rule 9.4 does not make any difference whether movement of player's ball is deliberate or accidental.

I really don't know what you are saying in this post. I know what I am saying, and I don't think of it as opinion. Of course, you have your own view.

There is no correction from the published 2019 material to the 'clarified' 2019 material - there is simply an extra example of 'related' acts. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with Int 1.3c(4)/4. But you do need to read it carefully.......

[antip]

Comparison 1: Assume ball enters PA from green side and the player takes BOL relief from a relief area established using a reference point that is immediately behind the point where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA. This relief area (assuming it exists - in many/most yellow PAs it will not exist) is identical regardless of whether the PA is yellow or red and that is the first comparison I was discussing.

 

I completely disagree that "many/most" yellow PAs will not provide a green-side segment of a BOL relief area for a ball that last crossed on the green side. If the arc of the yellow line at the point last crossed moves even slightly away from the hole (as it often does) and if you select a reference point just inside the PA, there will frequently be a place within 1 CL to drop -- particularly if you don't mind getting your feet wet when you take your next stroke. Having a hole on the extreme left or right of the green will often expand the useful portion of the relief area. (All of which assumes that this entire concept is legal, which I do.)

 

I have it on good authority that a team from the USGA is "sitting down" discussing this issue. I presume that whenever they again "stand up" there will have to be a meeting of minds with those from across the pond.

 

Wonder if the pond is marked yellow or red . . .

Sawgrass

You have picked up on something that was not the key issue I was raising, but there is some value in this 'side discussion'. We probably should consider separately the close to the green yellow PA, that often have green 'wrapping' elements to them, from the more common 'classic' type yellow PAs that cross fairways away from the green. I agree that the close to the green ones are far more likely to have green side BOL relief from a reference point right behind the last point of crossing for ball that has entered from the green side of the PA. But for the second category, it would not be common, and the further you move away from the green and the closer you are to the PA being at right angles to the line of play the rarer it becomes.

 

I'm happy to hear the USGA is considering this - because there is no doubt in my mind what the implications of the published 2019 rules are. And if they want something different, they need to tell us. And I suggest there are two key possible directions of change - if they do not wish to live with what is now out there. First is change the yellow PA rule to affirm BOL relief can only be taken behind the PA (as in the pre-2019 world). Second is to affirm that any Committee that wishes to do so can create a local rule that applies to the course or specific locations that requires BOL relief for a yellow PA to be taken from behind the PA.

[antip]

Now dealing with the reference points being in the PA: I thought this was very straightforward. if it is Red PA and you are taking lateral relief (17.1d(3)), your reference point is where you last crossed the edge of the PA - so that crossing point is in the PA. Think red paint line, point where you last crossed is on the paint line. The paint line is in the PA. That is how the edge of the PA is defined. If it is either red or yellow PA and you are taking BOL relief from the point immediately behind where the ball last crossed the edge, that point also MUST be in the PA.

 

 

Are you really sure about that..?

 

Let us visit Augusta #12 one again. You hit your ball short and it lands in the middle of the pond. So, the point where your ball last crossed the yellow PA margin (point A) is on the tee side of the pond. Now, let us imagine a reference point to point A and call that reference point point B.

 

You say that this point B must be in the PA. But if point B would be in the PA that would be point A, i.e. the point where your ball last crossed the edge of that PA. Thus the reference point (B) must be outside the PA, otherwise it would be point A.

 

It is the same today with yellow Water Hazards in the described situation. You must drop your ball outside the WH thus further from the hole than the point where the ball last crossed the margin of that WH.

Mr Bean

It is clear from the above that you have not picked up a key restriction that applied to my discussions of yellow PAs and what it means for points of last crossing and the reference point. My discussion relates only to the situation of the ball having crossed the PA and come back into the PA from the green side of the PA.

Of course, I agree with your observation above - if the player is hitting over a yellow PA and fails to carry over, the only BOL option is behind the PA - and time is irrelevant there, that is, it applies in the 2019 and pre-2019 worlds.

[Mr. Bean]

@antip:

Let me present you a case. My ball in play is in the fairway and I lift it without any Rule allowing me to do that. Then I drop that ball a foot from the spot I lifted it from. How many penalty strokes do I get

A) today

B) in 2019

?

[antip]

I believe, but am not positive, Rae's Creek is yellow. IF it is red the lateral drop is possible.

 

But if it is indeed yellow, this is my "bet" (below) and I'm sticking with it - NO lateral relief.

 

How often does it need to be said? There is no lateral relief from a yellow penalty area. You don't have to argue the point or stick with a view on the matter, it is a simple fact that wherever it is, Rae's Creek or any other golf course in the world, if a penalty area is marked yellow, you do not have the option of lateral relief from it.

Directed to no one in particular, in a modest effort to clarify this issue, I'll state that you may not take what is called "lateral relief" from a yellow penalty area, but you may drop "laterally" from a reference point associated with that yellow penalty area back-on-the-line.

Thank you for your self-described "modest effort to clarify". I appreciate the spirit in which you raise this issue. In the same spirit, I agree that "may drop laterally..." avoids the bigger problem of calling it "lateral relief", but suggest "you may drop in a relief area to the side..." goes further in reducing potential for any reader (including our non-native English speaker members) to think you are talking about lateral relief - which arises under the golf Rules in only very limited and specific circumstances. (Edit, on just finding it, I'm agreeing fully with Colin L's post.)

[antip]

@antip:

Let me present you a case. My ball in play is in the fairway and I lift it without any Rule allowing me to do that. Then I drop that ball a foot from the spot I lifted it from. How many penalty strokes do I get

A) today

B) in 2019

?

There is insufficient information to answer at this point in time. Do I need to explain what is required?

[Mr. Bean]

Pls. do tell me.

[nsxguy]

@nxsguy

No worries. I don't get upset - well, not about rules matters! But I do hold to the importance of not confusing the precise terminology of those rules by using terms loosely in the context of a situation to which they don't apply. Lateral relief has a precise meaning and it is unhelpful to anyone trying to learn the rules if it, lateral or laterally is used of back on the line relief from a yellow penalty area.

 

We now have helpful consistency across the various situations in which we take relief, using the concept of a reference point from which a relief area is measured. The relief area for back on the line relief is the same distance to each side of the reference line. The infinite series of reference points and consequent relief areas is along that line which is certainly not lateral. It will always (dangerous word to use!) go through part of the penalty area. A line from where the ball crosses the edge of a red penalty does not go through the penalty area, but away from it to the side - hence laterally.

 

So, for the sake of clarity and simplicity, please don't talk about lateral relief or taking relief laterally from a yellow penalty area. It really is unhelpful.

 

 

These are the salient points in the discussion as I understand them:

 

1) In taking back on the line relief from a yellow penalty area, it is possible, under the rules as written, to choose a reference point in the penalty area such that there is a partial relief area outside it in the general area.

 

2) Where a ball has hit the ground beyond a yellow penalty area and bounced back into it, it would be possible in some instances to achieve that partial relief area on the hole side of the penalty area - a change from what we have been used to where we have had to drop behind a water hazard and play over it.

 

3) There is a debate about whether such a possibility is desirable, and Sawgrass tells us that his contacts have indicated the matter is under discussion by the USGA.

 

If I may, the bolded part is the crux of the matter (ball landing green side outside the yellow PA and falling backwards into it).

 

So the only real question is where IS the "reference point" for the yellow PA ? Based on the description I would agree that it can be right behind where it last crossed thereby giving relief on that side of the yellow PA. I don't believe the rule intends that to be the case. I find it hard to believe that if that was intended to be the case that wouldn't have been an important enough change to highlight to everybody as a "major change".

 

IF the point right behind where it last crossed CAN be the "reference point" then clearly the drop CAN occur on that side of the PA.

 

If it can't be the RP for the yellow PA, the drop can NOT occur on that side of the PA. I believe it's really just that simple.

 

I look forward to the official explanation.

[Mr. Bean]

@antip:

Let me present you a case. My ball in play is in the fairway and I lift it without any Rule allowing me to do that. Then I drop that ball a foot from the spot I lifted it from and play it. How many penalty strokes do I get

A) today

B) in 2019

?

There is insufficient information to answer at this point in time. Do I need to explain what is required?

 

Now I got it. My thoughts were quicker than my fingers... see correction in the quote.

[Colin L]

@antip:

Let me present you a case. My ball in play is in the fairway and I lift it without any Rule allowing me to do that. Then I drop that ball a foot from the spot I lifted it from and play it. How many penalty strokes do I get

A) today

B) in 2019

?

 

I feel a bit uncomfortable about setting test questions like this to others in the forum as it has a hint of trying to catch someone out but maybe I'm being overly sensitive and no doubt antip will give you the correct answer and the purpose will become clear!

 

If I answered "loss of hole" unless my opponent chose to ignore the breach, would that hint at another bit of information missing?

[Mr. Bean]

@antip:

Let me present you a case. My ball in play is in the fairway and I lift it without any Rule allowing me to do that. Then I drop that ball a foot from the spot I lifted it from and play it. How many penalty strokes do I get

A) today

B) in 2019

?

 

I feel a bit uncomfortable about setting test questions like this to others in the forum as it has a hint of trying to catch someone out but maybe I'm being overly sensitive and no doubt antip will give you the correct answer and the purpose will become clear!

 

If I answered "loss of hole" unless my opponent chose to ignore the breach, would that hint at another bit of information missing?

 

The purpose is to find out if we are understanding a Rule in a same manner.

 

And it is stroke play and the drop is correctly made...

 

Colin, with this additional information, what would YOUR answer be?

[antip]

@antip:

Let me present you a case. My ball in play is in the fairway and I lift it without any Rule allowing me to do that. Then I drop that ball a foot from the spot I lifted it from and play it. How many penalty strokes do I get

A) today

B) in 2019

?

 

I feel a bit uncomfortable about setting test questions like this to others in the forum as it has a hint of trying to catch someone out but maybe I'm being overly sensitive and no doubt antip will give you the correct answer and the purpose will become clear!

 

If I answered "loss of hole" unless my opponent chose to ignore the breach, would that hint at another bit of information missing?

 

The purpose is to find out if we are understanding a Rule in a same manner.

 

And it is stroke play and the drop is correctly made...

 

Colin, with this additional information, what would YOUR answer be?

It seems Colin and I are taking turns, I don't see any problems with that and I assume that Colin will not be offended by me going first. I am answering for 2019 and have no interest in playing 2018 referee any more. As my golf rules mentor (but I confess he is not aware of this role) states "Out with the old and in with the new".

 

When your ball is in play you are required to play as lies (R9.1a); moving the ball without authority is a breach of R9.4b and attracts 1 stroke penalty and the ball must be replaced on its original spot (R9.4a). Playing the ball from another position (than the original position) means the ball was played from a wrong place (R14.7) and the penalty is the general penalty. So we have two rules breached and the critical challenge is to decide whether these are related or unrelated acts. Why? Because if these are related acts the total penalty is the general penalty, that is, 2 penalty strokes. If they are unrelated acts, these penalties are additive and the total penalty is three penalty strokes. Int 1.3c(4)/1 guides on this issue and advises that putting a ball in play is an intervening act that results in the player getting multiple penalties. In the 'case' you have brought, we must assume that the player fully intended to put a ball in play when the ball was dropped (otherwise it would not have been a 'drop' under the rules - you must have intent). Consequently, the total penalty is three penalty strokes.

 

I also agree with the sentiment in Colin's previous post - pitching a question like this directly at another contributor smacks of playing "gotcha" and, IMO, is poor form. By all means, bring your complicated/tricky questions forward, but please do so in a collegiate manner that does not look like you are trying to score points.

[Colin L]

..... So the only real question is where IS the "reference point" for the yellow PA ? Based on the description I would agree that it can be right behind where it last crossed thereby giving relief on that side of the yellow PA. .......

 

There isn't a reference point until either it is chosen by the player or he has dropped a ball within a club-length of the reference line. To expand on what you say, the configuration of a penalty area and its relationship to the hole could allow more possible reference points than just one immediately behind where the ball came back across the edge, any one of which would chieve a partial relief area to allow the player to avoid playing again over the penalty area. The illustration below is imaginary but not unlike a layout where a ditch crosses part of the hole before disappearing into an underground pipe. The relief area is coloured partly yellow and partly red. The red bit shows that part of the relief area which would give you a line of play that does not cross the penalty area if your ball had rolled back into the penalty area at point A. Playing from the yellow bit would involve crossing the penalty area to some extent but would still be considerably more advantageous than under the current rules. Any reference point on the line between A and B would allow you to play without crossing the penalty area.

 

You don't like; I don't like it; I expect there will be many others who don't like it. In the meantime, it's a matter of trying to manage your course marking so that the occasion does not arise.

 

 

[antip]

..... So the only real question is where IS the "reference point" for the yellow PA ? Based on the description I would agree that it can be right behind where it last crossed thereby giving relief on that side of the yellow PA. .......

 

There isn't a reference point until either it is chosen by the player or he has dropped a ball within a club-length of the reference line. To expand on what you say, the configuration of a penalty area and its relationship to the hole could allow more possible reference points than just one immediately behind where the ball came back across the edge, any one of which would chieve a partial relief area to allow the player to avoid playing again over the penalty area. The illustration below is imaginary but not unlike a layout where a ditch crosses part of the hole before disappearing into an underground pipe. The relief area is in yellow and the red triangular area shows that part of it which would give you a line of play that does not cross the penalty area if your ball had rolled back into the penalty area at point A. You could choose any reference point back on the line up to the point at which it no longer gives you part of the relief area with that line of play.

 

You don't like; I don't like it; I expect there will be many others who don't like it. In the meantime, it's a matter of trying to manage your course marking so that the occasion does not arise.

 

 

Colin

I'm not sure I'm following your point in the bolded sentence (last sentence in your main paragraph). I'm thinking the RA is the whole rectangle to the side of the PA, that the 'line of play' constraint you seem to be identifying is not a constraint on taking BOL relief.

 

I also note that this RA would be equally applicable for BOL relief if the Committee had declared all PAs to be red in the situation you identify.

[Mr. Bean]

When your ball is in play you are required to play as lies (R9.1a); moving the ball without authority is a breach of R9.4b and attracts 1 stroke penalty and the ball must be replaced on its original spot (R9.4a). Playing the ball from another position (than the original position) means the ball was played from a wrong place (R14.7) and the penalty is the general penalty. So we have two rules breached and the critical challenge is to decide whether these are related or unrelated acts. Why? Because if these are related acts the total penalty is the general penalty, that is, 2 penalty strokes. If they are unrelated acts, these penalties are additive and the total penalty is three penalty strokes. Int 1.3c(4)/1 guides on this issue and advises that putting a ball in play is an intervening act that results in the player getting multiple penalties. In the 'case' you have brought, we must assume that the player fully intended to put a ball in play when the ball was dropped (otherwise it would not have been a 'drop' under the rules - you must have intent). Consequently, the total penalty is three penalty strokes.

 

The reason why I asked for an answer according to the Rules of 2018 and 2019 is that under current Rules the total penalty is 2 strokes (see eg. D18-2/4 and 18-2/10) and that seems to be the case in 2019 as well, which is no astonishment as it would be difficult to reason why the RB's would have wanted to increase the number of penalties for a same breach of Rules.

 

The way I read it the published clarification of Rule 1.3c(4) says 'The act of moving the ball in breach of Rule 9.4 is related to playing from wrong place in breach of Rule 14.7'. I also understand it so that in my example putting the ball in play is a direct consequence of moving that ball and thus not an intervening act, especially when Rule 9.4b or 1.3c(4) does not separate situations where a ball has been lifted on purpose or moved accidentally.

 

Furthermore, the Int 1.3c(4)/4 says:

 

'However, Rule 9.4b (Lifting or Deliberately Touching Ball or Causing It to Move) requires that the moved ball be replaced and, if it is not replaced before the stroke, the player will get an additional penalty of two strokes under Rule 9.4b. The failure to replace the ball is considered a separate and unrelated act.'

 

and that is what the RB's have corrected by publishing the clarification.

 

Any comments anyone?

[Colin L]

..... So the only real question is where IS the "reference point" for the yellow PA ? Based on the description I would agree that it can be right behind where it last crossed thereby giving relief on that side of the yellow PA. .......

 

There isn't a reference point until either it is chosen by the player or he has dropped a ball within a club-length of the reference line. To expand on what you say, the configuration of a penalty area and its relationship to the hole could allow more possible reference points than just one immediately behind where the ball came back across the edge, any one of which would chieve a partial relief area to allow the player to avoid playing again over the penalty area. The illustration below is imaginary but not unlike a layout where a ditch crosses part of the hole before disappearing into an underground pipe. The relief area is in yellow and the red triangular area shows that part of it which would give you a line of play that does not cross the penalty area if your ball had rolled back into the penalty area at point A. You could choose any reference point back on the line up to the point at which it no longer gives you part of the relief area with that line of play.

 

You don't like; I don't like it; I expect there will be many others who don't like it. In the meantime, it's a matter of trying to manage your course marking so that the occasion does not arise.

 

 

Colin

I'm not sure I'm following your point in the bolded sentence (last sentence in your main paragraph). I'm thinking the RA is the whole rectangle to the side of the PA, that the 'line of play' constraint you seem to be identifying is not a constraint on taking BOL relief.

 

I also note that this RA would be equally applicable for BOL relief if the Committee had declared all PAs to be red in the situation you identify.

 

The red bit shows that part of the relief area which would give a line to the hole that does not cross the penalty area. It's not in any way a constraint on taking relief in any other part of the relief area. Not well expressed - I've changed it in the original post to this:

 

The relief area is coloured partly yellow and partly red. The red bit shows that part of the relief area which would give you a line of play that does not cross the penalty area if your ball had rolled back into the penalty area at point A. Playing from the yellow bit would involve crossing the penalty area to some extent but would still be considerably more advantageous than under the current rules. Any reference point on the line between A and B would allow you to play without crossing the penalty area.

 

 

I was concentrating on yellow penalty areas because while it would apply to a red penalty area, there's nothing new or concerning about not having to play over a red one when taking relief.

[antip]

..... So the only real question is where IS the "reference point" for the yellow PA ? Based on the description I would agree that it can be right behind where it last crossed thereby giving relief on that side of the yellow PA. .......

 

There isn't a reference point until either it is chosen by the player or he has dropped a ball within a club-length of the reference line. To expand on what you say, the configuration of a penalty area and its relationship to the hole could allow more possible reference points than just one immediately behind where the ball came back across the edge, any one of which would chieve a partial relief area to allow the player to avoid playing again over the penalty area. The illustration below is imaginary but not unlike a layout where a ditch crosses part of the hole before disappearing into an underground pipe. The relief area is in yellow and the red triangular area shows that part of it which would give you a line of play that does not cross the penalty area if your ball had rolled back into the penalty area at point A. You could choose any reference point back on the line up to the point at which it no longer gives you part of the relief area with that line of play.

 

You don't like; I don't like it; I expect there will be many others who don't like it. In the meantime, it's a matter of trying to manage your course marking so that the occasion does not arise.

 

 

Colin

I'm not sure I'm following your point in the bolded sentence (last sentence in your main paragraph). I'm thinking the RA is the whole rectangle to the side of the PA, that the 'line of play' constraint you seem to be identifying is not a constraint on taking BOL relief.

 

I also note that this RA would be equally applicable for BOL relief if the Committee had declared all PAs to be red in the situation you identify.

 

The red bit shows that part of the relief area which would give a line to the hole that does not cross the penalty area. It's not in any way a constraint on taking relief in any other part of the relief area. Not well expressed - I've changed it in the original post to this:

 

The relief area is coloured partly yellow and partly red. The red bit shows that part of the relief area which would give you a line of play that does not cross the penalty area if your ball had rolled back into the penalty area at point A. Playing from the yellow bit would involve crossing the penalty area to some extent but would still be considerably more advantageous than under the current rules. Any reference point on the line between A and B would allow you to play without crossing the penalty area.

 

 

I was concentrating on yellow penalty areas because while it would apply to a red penalty area, there's nothing new or concerning about not having to play over a red one when taking relief.

Thanks for the clarification. I had noticed the tension between the earlier sentences and the last sentence in that main paragraph.