2019 Rules of Golf

[Sawgrass]

This is indeed an interesting question and obviously one of the many parts of the new Rules written unclear.

 

My questions are:

- may a reference point be on the same penalty area? IMO no as it is not possible today either.

- may part of the relief area be on the same penalty area?.

- does R17.1d(3)/1 only apply to lateral penalty areas?

 

Is the term "reference point" new for the 2019 rules? Or do the current rules also use "reference point" when describing straight-line-through drops? If "reference point" is in fact already a thing (and is currently forbidden inside the yellow/red lines) then I can see you being correct based on that.

 

 

Even though in current Rules there is no such thing as a reference point, a ball must be dropped behind the yellow-marked water hazard so there is absolutely no ambiguity about that. As I cannot believe this principle would have changed the new Rules are just poorly written in this respect.

 

Furthermore, as the yellow penalty areas have been preserved the current principle of having to hit a ball over a yellow penalty area (currently water hazard) instead of carrying it must still prevail. Thus it does not sound at all logical to drop a ball on the green side of Augusta #12 in described situation.

 

I don't think it helpful to refer back to principles explicit in the 2018 Rules and take it that they are implicit in the 2019 Rules. We have to take the new rules as read without imposing on them any assumptions. And we have to recognise new principles from what is actually written. If we are right that nothing is said to the effect that the reference point for back on the line relief from a penalty area cannot be in a penalty area and given that Interpretation 17.1d(3)/1 clearly indicates that the relief area outside a penalty area might be incomplete, I suggest that we need to take all this at its face value. A new rule, a new principle.

Supporting this point, I'll add that we already have a new lateral concept built right into the new back-on-the-line procedure. Only one club-length, but lateral nonetheless.

[davep043]

This is indeed an interesting question and obviously one of the many parts of the new Rules written unclear.

 

My questions are:

- may a reference point be on the same penalty area? IMO no as it is not possible today either.

- may part of the relief area be on the same penalty area?.

- does R17.1d(3)/1 only apply to lateral penalty areas?

 

Is the term "reference point" new for the 2019 rules? Or do the current rules also use "reference point" when describing straight-line-through drops? If "reference point" is in fact already a thing (and is currently forbidden inside the yellow/red lines) then I can see you being correct based on that.

 

 

Even though in current Rules there is no such thing as a reference point, a ball must be dropped behind the yellow-marked water hazard so there is absolutely no ambiguity about that. As I cannot believe this principle would have changed the new Rules are just poorly written in this respect.

 

Furthermore, as the yellow penalty areas have been preserved the current principle of having to hit a ball over a yellow penalty area (currently water hazard) instead of carrying it must still prevail. Thus it does not sound at all logical to drop a ball on the green side of Augusta #12 in described situation.

 

I don't think it helpful to refer back to principles explicit in the 2018 Rules and take it that they are implicit in the 2019 Rules. We have to take the new rules as read without imposing on them any assumptions. And we have to recognise new principles from what is actually written. If we are right that nothing is said to the effect that the reference point for back on the line relief from a penalty area cannot be in a penalty area and given that Interpretation 17.1d(3)/1 clearly indicates that the relief area outside a penalty area might be incomplete, I suggest that we need to take all this at its face value. A new rule, a new principle.

Supporting this point, I'll add that we already have a new lateral concept built right into the new back-on-the-line procedure. Only one club-length, but lateral nonetheless.

I think the idea of a bit of latitude on either side of the "line back" makes sense, the rules don't expect us to always be perfectly on the line, so they've defined the amount of "off line" we can be. I still think that the best way to be consistent with the older principle around yellow penalty areas would be to further restrict the "reference point" to be outside the penalty area.

[fairways4life]

Just going through my home course in my head, I can identify 4 holes where this could potentially come into play.

 

2 of them would be unlikely because they would require the perfect combination of completely terrible shot + tucked hole location to get the straight line just right.

 

1 hole could happen very easily but the advantage of using this loophole would be minimal, if any.

 

But 1 hole, a par 3 with a large body of water in front of the green, could absolutely produce this option quite easily. And the difference would be a 20-yard layup vs. a 140 yard carry over the water.

[nsxguy]

OK, a number of things.

 

Firstly, "reference point". There are 2 of them. One chosen and one fixed. For the YELLOW P.A. reference point, other than S&D, you use the point the ball last crossed the P.A. and keep that point between you and the flag and go back as far as you want, SAME as today. THAT point, as you choose, becomes the "reference point". The only difference (from today) is you can drop within 1 club length in any direction no closer to the hole than the reference point.

 

The other is for the RED P.A. That one IS the point where it last crossed the P.A. That IS the reference point. You don't get to "choose". From there you have the same 2 options as the yellow above PLUS you have the option to drop within 2 club lengths of the reference point no closer to the hole.

 

As stated earlier, you can't drop in the same P.A. The emphasis on "same" would seem to indicate you MAY drop in a different P.A. if you so desire. :dntknw:

 

"Relief Area". As mentioned by others, 1 (yellow) or 2 (red) club lengths in any direction no closer to the hole from the reference point.

 

For BOTH yellow and red areas the link provided earlier has a color chart that says, under "Limits of relief area", "May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area"

 

 

 

Now, as to dropping greenside for a yellow P.A., I have no idea what "fairways" is talking about above without him describing it but I can only picture a "finger" of land between 2 bodies of (presumably) the same yellow water area where the is some dry land between the greenside part of the PA/water and the back/main portion of the PA/water. That would seem to serve the purpose of dropping behind that last water it crossed - but that would be TODAY too, no ?

 

I've attached a picture of the 12th at Augusta and I can't see anywhere that ball could hit, back up into the water, and still have any dry land (i.e. land NOT in the water) to drop in keeping the spot it entered between the drop point and the hole.

 

Most of the yellow hazards/PAs I've ever seen are in front of a green and are fairly regularly shaped, i.e. none of these "finger" type areas/situations. So, even if the ball does hit outside the yellow PA on the green side of the PA there's pretty much no way you could drop anywhere BUT behind the yellow PA.

 

[bladehunter]

I've got a question. I think a few of my fellow players will empathize.

 

I think the rules changes for 2019 are the worst. Seems to me pace has taken a front seat to the traditions and integrity of the game.

 

So, if I play as if there are no rules changes will I be in violation of any of the new rules?

 

In day to day play, not very often. It's the agreement to not play by the new rules that gets you the DQ.

 

But in everyday play, it's basically just drops that have changed. You have to drop from knee height.

 

If you make that one change, dropping from knee height, and play golf the way you always have, you'll have legit scores 99+% of the time.

 

But that's for you. Your opponents/competitors must be allowed to play the game by the new rules. So while you won't be tapping down spike marks or moving sticks out of your way in penalty areas, your opponents will have that option.

 

Really though, if you just hit it down the fairway and hit it on the green then two putt and go to the next hole, you'll never notice the rules changes.

 

The changes are for the rest of us hacks that hit it sideways most of the time. Moving stuff in penalty areas, knee height drops, and 2ps lost ball local rule will be used in nearly every round to make playing easier and faster.

 

The spike mark rule was put in place because, universally, nobody likes to put through them. So instead of looking at it for 10+ seconds and developing a strategy as to how it'll affect the putt, you just tap it down. It's faster.

 

Putting with the flagstick in is a concession to players playing as a 1-some or 2-some that want to have a legit score, but don't want to pull the flag on long putts. It's saves time and wear on the green.

 

But, for the most part, you can play golf the same way you always have if that's what you'd like to do. Just drop from knee height. It's the only, real, "major change" they came up with that may affect you.

 

I play a friendly match play with a partner pretty often and we played yesterday. I took a drop for a ball hit into a water hazard and took it at shoulder height. I contemplated whether the rule is from "knee height or higher" or actually just at knee height. Re-reading the new rule it is clear (even has a diagram) that the ball must be dropped exactly from knee height.

 

Seems that and figuring out the "relief area" are the two big components of complying with the 2019 rules. I'm not going to address the idea that "not complying" is a rules violation. If every player had to pass a rules test before teeing off, golf wouldn't have to worry about "dying" as it would be cold and decaying already. Denial plausibility, I'm not willfully ignoring the rules I'm just ignorant to all the facets of the new ridiculous fix what isn't broken bureaucrats keeping their jobs ivory tower rules changes for 2019.

 

My legs are longer than most ... isn’t this tall people discriminate?

[Sawgrass]

OK, a number of things.

 

Firstly, "reference point". There are 2 of them. One chosen and one fixed. For the YELLOW P.A. reference point, other than S&D, you use the point the ball last crossed the P.A. and keep that point between you and the flag and go back as far as you want, SAME as today. THAT point, as you choose, becomes the "reference point". The only difference (from today) is you can drop within 1 club length in any direction no closer to the hole than the reference point.

 

The other is for the RED P.A. That one IS the point where it last crossed the P.A. That IS the reference point. You don't get to "choose". From there you have the same 2 options as the yellow above PLUS you have the option to drop within 2 club lengths of the reference point no closer to the hole.

 

As stated earlier, you can't drop in the same P.A. The emphasis on "same" would seem to indicate you MAY drop in a different P.A. if you so desire. :dntknw:

 

"Relief Area". As mentioned by others, 1 (yellow) or 2 (red) club lengths in any direction no closer to the hole from the reference point.

 

For BOTH yellow and red areas the link provided earlier has a color chart that says, under "Limits of relief area", "May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area"

 

 

 

Now, as to dropping greenside for a yellow P.A., I have no idea what "fairways" is talking about above without him describing it but I can only picture a "finger" of land between 2 bodies of (presumably) the same yellow water area where the is some dry land between the greenside part of the PA/water and the back/main portion of the PA/water. That would seem to serve the purpose of dropping behind that last water it crossed - but that would be TODAY too, no ?

 

I've attached a picture of the 12th at Augusta and I can't see anywhere that ball could hit, back up into the water, and still have any dry land (i.e. land NOT in the water) to drop in keeping the spot it entered between the drop point and the hole.

 

Most of the yellow hazards/PAs I've ever seen are in front of a green and are fairly regularly shaped, i.e. none of these "finger" type areas/situations. So, even if the ball does hit outside the yellow PA on the green side of the PA there's pretty much no way you could drop anywhere BUT behind the yellow PA.

 

Augusta #12: pin far right, ball lands short of center bunker and rolls back into penalty area. Put tee in water at edge of penalty area an inch back of where it rolled back in the water and use that as reference point (it’s literally back on the line). Measure a relief area one club length left of reference point, no closer, and drop on the grass. If you’re right handed, all is well.

[fairways4life]

OK, a number of things.

 

Firstly, "reference point". There are 2 of them. One chosen and one fixed. For the YELLOW P.A. reference point, other than S&D, you use the point the ball last crossed the P.A. and keep that point between you and the flag and go back as far as you want, SAME as today. THAT point, as you choose, becomes the "reference point". The only difference (from today) is you can drop within 1 club length in any direction no closer to the hole than the reference point.

 

The other is for the RED P.A. That one IS the point where it last crossed the P.A. That IS the reference point. You don't get to "choose". From there you have the same 2 options as the yellow above PLUS you have the option to drop within 2 club lengths of the reference point no closer to the hole.

 

As stated earlier, you can't drop in the same P.A. The emphasis on "same" would seem to indicate you MAY drop in a different P.A. if you so desire. :dntknw:

 

"Relief Area". As mentioned by others, 1 (yellow) or 2 (red) club lengths in any direction no closer to the hole from the reference point.

 

For BOTH yellow and red areas the link provided earlier has a color chart that says, under "Limits of relief area", "May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area"

 

 

 

Now, as to dropping greenside for a yellow P.A., I have no idea what "fairways" is talking about above without him describing it but I can only picture a "finger" of land between 2 bodies of (presumably) the same yellow water area where the is some dry land between the greenside part of the PA/water and the back/main portion of the PA/water. That would seem to serve the purpose of dropping behind that last water it crossed - but that would be TODAY too, no ?

 

I've attached a picture of the 12th at Augusta and I can't see anywhere that ball could hit, back up into the water, and still have any dry land (i.e. land NOT in the water) to drop in keeping the spot it entered between the drop point and the hole.

 

Most of the yellow hazards/PAs I've ever seen are in front of a green and are fairly regularly shaped, i.e. none of these "finger" type areas/situations. So, even if the ball does hit outside the yellow PA on the green side of the PA there's pretty much no way you could drop anywhere BUT behind the yellow PA.

 

Augusta #12: pin far right, ball lands short of center bunker and rolls back into penalty area. Put tee in water at edge of penalty area an inch back of where it rolled back in the water and use that as reference point (it’s literally back on the line). Measure a relief area one club length left of reference point, no closer, and drop on the grass. If you’re right handed, all is well.

 

Exactly as Sawgrass stated.

 

While a finger-shaped or zig zagged penalty area would certainly help, it wouldn't be necessary. The example given by Sawgrass is exactly what I'm talking about.

[antip]

• 
  Question about the flagstick and new "holed" definition:
   

  If a player's ball comes to rest against the flagstick left in the hole:
  If any part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green, the ball is treated as holed even if the entire ball is not below the surface."

   
  What's the test it verify the ball has broken the putting surface if it's leaning against the flagstick to avoid the inevitable "No it isn't" "Yes it is" argument? Say the pole was leaning ever so slightly towards the direction of the putt and stopped the ball. A visual check would require getting down on to the knees, and even then you're left with a "no it isn't/yes it is" (look at it from this angle!)
   
  --kC
  

   
  Lean the flagstick in the opposite direction and see if the ball falls in would be my guess.
  

   
  I am afraid that is not the correct thing to do:
   
  Rule 13.2c
  If a player’s ball comes to rest against the flagstick left in the hole:
  
  • If any part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green, the ball is treated as holed even if the entire ball is not below the surface.
    
  • If no part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green:
    
    • The ball is not holed and must be played as it lies.
      
    • If the flagstick is removed and the ball moves (whether it falls into the hole or moves away from the hole), there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced on the lip of the hole (see Rule 14.2).
      

  [*]That Rule suggests that one needs to establish whether the ball is in the hole or not. Without doing that moving the flagstick results in replacing the ball outside the hole.

The last sentence above ("Without doing that.....") is WRONG. Whether the ball is in or not is a matter of fact. That last arrow point from the rule ("If the flagstick is removed..." only applies "If no part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green". So what do you need to do if the flagstick is moved and you haven't yet decided if part of the ball is below the surface of the green? You have to resolve the question of fact by assembling any/all available evidence and making the factual call, for example, recreate the ball against flagstick situation and check properly if ball is "holed". You replace ball outside the hole only after you conclude ball was not holed.

[nsxguy]

OK, a number of things.

 

Firstly, "reference point". There are 2 of them. One chosen and one fixed. For the YELLOW P.A. reference point, other than S&D, you use the point the ball last crossed the P.A. and keep that point between you and the flag and go back as far as you want, SAME as today. THAT point, as you choose, becomes the "reference point". The only difference (from today) is you can drop within 1 club length in any direction no closer to the hole than the reference point.

 

The other is for the RED P.A. That one IS the point where it last crossed the P.A. That IS the reference point. You don't get to "choose". From there you have the same 2 options as the yellow above PLUS you have the option to drop within 2 club lengths of the reference point no closer to the hole.

 

As stated earlier, you can't drop in the same P.A. The emphasis on "same" would seem to indicate you MAY drop in a different P.A. if you so desire. :dntknw:

 

"Relief Area". As mentioned by others, 1 (yellow) or 2 (red) club lengths in any direction no closer to the hole from the reference point.

 

For BOTH yellow and red areas the link provided earlier has a color chart that says, under "Limits of relief area", "May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area"

 

 

 

Now, as to dropping greenside for a yellow P.A., I have no idea what "fairways" is talking about above without him describing it but I can only picture a "finger" of land between 2 bodies of (presumably) the same yellow water area where the is some dry land between the greenside part of the PA/water and the back/main portion of the PA/water. That would seem to serve the purpose of dropping behind that last water it crossed - but that would be TODAY too, no ?

 

I've attached a picture of the 12th at Augusta and I can't see anywhere that ball could hit, back up into the water, and still have any dry land (i.e. land NOT in the water) to drop in keeping the spot it entered between the drop point and the hole.

 

Most of the yellow hazards/PAs I've ever seen are in front of a green and are fairly regularly shaped, i.e. none of these "finger" type areas/situations. So, even if the ball does hit outside the yellow PA on the green side of the PA there's pretty much no way you could drop anywhere BUT behind the yellow PA.

 

Augusta #12: pin far right, ball lands short of center bunker and rolls back into penalty area. Put tee in water at edge of penalty area an inch back of where it rolled back in the water and use that as reference point (it’s literally back on the line). Measure a relief area one club length left of reference point, no closer, and drop on the grass. If you’re right handed, all is well.

 

Exactly as Sawgrass stated.

 

While a finger-shaped or zig zagged penalty area would certainly help, it wouldn't be necessary. The example given by Sawgrass is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

I see what you guys mean now. This about correct ?

 

 

 

 

 

Somebody shoot off an email to the USGA yet ?

[fairways4life]

OK, a number of things.

 

Firstly, "reference point". There are 2 of them. One chosen and one fixed. For the YELLOW P.A. reference point, other than S&D, you use the point the ball last crossed the P.A. and keep that point between you and the flag and go back as far as you want, SAME as today. THAT point, as you choose, becomes the "reference point". The only difference (from today) is you can drop within 1 club length in any direction no closer to the hole than the reference point.

 

The other is for the RED P.A. That one IS the point where it last crossed the P.A. That IS the reference point. You don't get to "choose". From there you have the same 2 options as the yellow above PLUS you have the option to drop within 2 club lengths of the reference point no closer to the hole.

 

As stated earlier, you can't drop in the same P.A. The emphasis on "same" would seem to indicate you MAY drop in a different P.A. if you so desire. :dntknw:

 

"Relief Area". As mentioned by others, 1 (yellow) or 2 (red) club lengths in any direction no closer to the hole from the reference point.

 

For BOTH yellow and red areas the link provided earlier has a color chart that says, under "Limits of relief area", "May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area"

 

 

 

Now, as to dropping greenside for a yellow P.A., I have no idea what "fairways" is talking about above without him describing it but I can only picture a "finger" of land between 2 bodies of (presumably) the same yellow water area where the is some dry land between the greenside part of the PA/water and the back/main portion of the PA/water. That would seem to serve the purpose of dropping behind that last water it crossed - but that would be TODAY too, no ?

 

I've attached a picture of the 12th at Augusta and I can't see anywhere that ball could hit, back up into the water, and still have any dry land (i.e. land NOT in the water) to drop in keeping the spot it entered between the drop point and the hole.

 

Most of the yellow hazards/PAs I've ever seen are in front of a green and are fairly regularly shaped, i.e. none of these "finger" type areas/situations. So, even if the ball does hit outside the yellow PA on the green side of the PA there's pretty much no way you could drop anywhere BUT behind the yellow PA.

 

Augusta #12: pin far right, ball lands short of center bunker and rolls back into penalty area. Put tee in water at edge of penalty area an inch back of where it rolled back in the water and use that as reference point (it’s literally back on the line). Measure a relief area one club length left of reference point, no closer, and drop on the grass. If you’re right handed, all is well.

 

Exactly as Sawgrass stated.

 

While a finger-shaped or zig zagged penalty area would certainly help, it wouldn't be necessary. The example given by Sawgrass is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

I see what you guys mean now. Somebody shoot off an email to the USGA yet ?

 

Lol no. I'm waiting for Phil to exploit this loophole in a critical situation in the US Open and watching Mike Davis explain another USGA rules fiasco in a post-round press conference.

 

[fairways4life]

nsxguy --- the bottom pic that you posted of Augusta 12th with the diagram showing the hole, entry and drop point is spot on. That's exactly the situation we are referring to.

 

The only possible thing I could see to negate it is that technically speaking, a tiny portion of your relief area would be in the penalty area. 99% of it could be outside of the penalty area, but the relief area starts at the reference point (which is inside the hazard) and extends up to one club length.

 

So because a portion of the relief area is technically inside the penalty area, would that make your relief area illegal? In other words, can no part of the relief area be inside the penalty area? Someone mentioned this possibility earlier in the thread and I think it's a valid argument that might put the axe on this whole idea. But .... I just don't know.

[Augster]

nsxguy --- the bottom pic that you posted of Augusta 12th with the diagram showing the hole, entry and drop point is spot on. That's exactly the situation we are referring to.

 

The only possible thing I could see to negate it is that technically speaking, a tiny portion of your relief area would be in the penalty area. 99% of it could be outside of the penalty area, but the relief area starts at the reference point (which is inside the hazard) and extends up to one club length.

 

So because a portion of the relief area is technically inside the penalty area, would that make your relief area illegal? In other words, can no part of the relief area be inside the penalty area? Someone mentioned this possibility earlier in the thread and I think it's a valid argument that might put the axe on this whole idea. But .... I just don't know.

 

17-1d(3)/1 is close to this. The area inside the penalty area wouldn’t be included in the relief area. I think this was posted earlier.

 

17.1d(3)/1 – Player May Measure Across Penalty Area In Taking Lateral Relief

 

In taking lateral relief where the ball last crossed the edge of a narrow red penalty area, it may be possible for the player to measure the two club-lengths from the reference point across the penalty area in determining the size of the relief area. However, any part of the penalty area within the two club-lengths as measured from the reference point is not part of the relief area.

[nsxguy]

nsxguy --- the bottom pic that you posted of Augusta 12th with the diagram showing the hole, entry and drop point is spot on. That's exactly the situation we are referring to.

 

The only possible thing I could see to negate it is that technically speaking, a tiny portion of your relief area would be in the penalty area. 99% of it could be outside of the penalty area, but the relief area starts at the reference point (which is inside the hazard) and extends up to one club length.

 

So because a portion of the relief area is technically inside the penalty area, would that make your relief area illegal? In other words, can no part of the relief area be inside the penalty area? Someone mentioned this possibility earlier in the thread and I think it's a valid argument that might put the axe on this whole idea. But .... I just don't know.

 

OK, let's see if I've got this. The last point of crossing. For a RED PA that is the "reference point" and you continue from there. You may drop sideways.

 

But this is NOT a red but a YELLOW PA. The only thing I can see on the diagram(s) is that to GET (to) the reference point, which you MUST get to first, before defining a relief area, you must continue BACKWARDS/away from the flag keeping the point it last crossed between you and the flag.

 

Assuming that is STILL the case, the reference point can not be on that side of the PA and a player would HAVE TO drop behind the water on the tee side.

 

Wha dya tink ? :dntknw:

[Rohlio]

I've got a question. I think a few of my fellow players will empathize.

 

I think the rules changes for 2019 are the worst. Seems to me pace has taken a front seat to the traditions and integrity of the game.

 

So, if I play as if there are no rules changes will I be in violation of any of the new rules?

As long as you limit your search time to 3 minutes, don't take a drop, don't play a ball from its new position after it is moved by natural forces after having been marked on the putting green, don't replace a broken club from your original 14, you'll be just fine -- other than you may be scoring yourself higher than you'd be entitled to for things like hitting yourself with your ball.

 

Good luck with that!

 

Edit: bolded part above corrected!

 

And also don't take opposite side relief from a lateral water hazard (red penalty area)

[fairways4life]

nsxguy --- the bottom pic that you posted of Augusta 12th with the diagram showing the hole, entry and drop point is spot on. That's exactly the situation we are referring to.

 

The only possible thing I could see to negate it is that technically speaking, a tiny portion of your relief area would be in the penalty area. 99% of it could be outside of the penalty area, but the relief area starts at the reference point (which is inside the hazard) and extends up to one club length.

 

So because a portion of the relief area is technically inside the penalty area, would that make your relief area illegal? In other words, can no part of the relief area be inside the penalty area? Someone mentioned this possibility earlier in the thread and I think it's a valid argument that might put the axe on this whole idea. But .... I just don't know.

 

OK, let's see if I've got this. The last point of crossing. For a RED PA that is the "reference point" and you continue from there. You may drop sideways.

 

But this is NOT a red but a YELLOW PA. The only thing I can see on the diagram(s) is that to GET (to) the reference point, which you MUST get to first, before defining a relief area, you must continue BACKWARDS/away from the flag keeping the point it last crossed between you and the flag.

 

Assuming that is STILL the case, the reference point can not be on that side of the PA and a player would HAVE TO drop behind the water on the tee side.

 

Wha dya tink ? :dntknw:

 

See, that's where it's unclear. It only says that you must keep a straight line from the hole to the point of entry and that you may go back on that line as far as you want. But it does not say that you have to go far enough back to be back outside the penalty area again. If I only want to go as far back as one inch, then I should be able to according to the rule.

[Augster]

You’re forgetting “estimated point” which is the old “point last crossed”. That’s where the ball crosses the hazard line which you line up that point with the “hole” (which used to be flagstick).

 

THEN you add in the new “reference point”. There is no requirement, yet, that the new “reference point” needs to be outside the current hazard or “behind the yellow hazard” as the old rules required.

 

In the discussed scenario, a ball rolling back into a PA, you line up the PLC (estimated point), with the “hole” as we’ve always done. But now you can make your “reference point”, say, 1 inch behind the estimated point and inside the PA. Then your drop has to be within 1 CL of that reference point where, in this scenario, most of the “relief area” is actually outside the penalty area within 1 CL of the reference point.

 

The limits on Relief Area say, “may be in any area of the course except the same penalty area BUT” and it’s that “BUT” that undermines the previous statement that the relief area can’t be in the same penalty area. Add the statement after the BUT to the Decision posted above and that’s what this is all about.

[fairways4life]

You're forgetting "estimated point" which is the old "point last crossed". That's where the ball crosses the hazard line which you line up that point with the "hole" (which used to be flagstick).

 

THEN you add in the new "reference point". There is no requirement, yet, that the new "reference point" needs to be outside the current hazard or "behind the yellow hazard" as the old rules required.

 

In the discussed scenario, a ball rolling back into a PA, you line up the PLC (estimated point), with the "hole" as we've always done. But now you can make your "reference point", say, 1 inch behind the estimated point and inside the PA. Then your drop has to be within 1 CL of that reference point where, in this scenario, most of the "relief area" is actually outside the penalty area within 1 CL of the reference point.

 

The limits on Relief Area say, "may be in any area of the course except the same penalty area BUT" and it's that "BUT" that undermines the previous statement that the relief area can't be in the same penalty area. Add the statement after the BUT to the Decision posted above and that's what this is all about.

• Limits on Location of Relief Area:
  
  • Must not be nearer the hole than the reference point, and
    
  • May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area, but
    
  • If more than one area of the course is located within one club-length of the reference point, the ball must come to rest in the relief area in the same area of the course that the ball first touched when dropped in the relief area.
    

So the relief area in our Augusta example is not closer to the hole (which satisfies the first line from above).

It is not in the same penalty area (which satisfies the second line from above)

The third line from above directly references our example --- "more than one area of the course is located within one club length of the reference point" (in our example those areas include the penalty area and the general area). But the rule only says that the ball must come to rest in the same area in which it first touched when dropped. So if the ball touched the general area first, it must come to rest in that same general area in order to be put into play.

 

Sooooo ..... I believe this third line answers the question of whether or not a reference point can be inside a penalty area. It clearly states that a reference area + relief area CAN include multiple areas of the course ("If more than one area of the course is located within one club length of the reference point...")

 

I interpret this to mean that the reference point can indeed be established inside the penalty area and the relief area can be established outside of that penalty area.

[deadsolid...shank]

I read all these changes when they were first announced, but I have to admit that now I've forgotten what many of the changes were.

 

They eleiminated the lateral option for a red staked hazard unless a local rule is implemented?

 

And I apologize for asking here instead of looking it up, when it's been covered extensively already. I just don't remeber and it's easier to get answers here (just wanted to throw that out there before the "use the search function" snipes start coming).

 

See posts 127,8 & 9

 

Thanks Newby. So what was a basic rule is now only applicable if it’s a local rule. I thought they were trying to make it simpler.

[nsxguy]

You're forgetting "estimated point" which is the old "point last crossed". That's where the ball crosses the hazard line which you line up that point with the "hole" (which used to be flagstick).

 

THEN you add in the new "reference point". There is no requirement, yet, that the new "reference point" needs to be outside the current hazard or "behind the yellow hazard" as the old rules required.

 

In the discussed scenario, a ball rolling back into a PA, you line up the PLC (estimated point), with the "hole" as we've always done. But now you can make your "reference point", say, 1 inch behind the estimated point and inside the PA. Then your drop has to be within 1 CL of that reference point where, in this scenario, most of the "relief area" is actually outside the penalty area within 1 CL of the reference point.

 

The limits on Relief Area say, "may be in any area of the course except the same penalty area BUT" and it's that "BUT" that undermines the previous statement that the relief area can't be in the same penalty area. Add the statement after the BUT to the Decision posted above and that's what this is all about.

 

In the link there are 2 descriptions for YELLOW PA. The only "picture" for yellow PA shows both scenarios; S&D and reference point/relief area.

 

However there are 2 separate explanations.

 

The first is stroke and distance.

 

The 2nd says "(2) The player may take back-on-the-line relief by dropping the original ball or another ball in a relief area based on a reference line going straight back from the hole through point X.

 

That puts the ball back behind the hazard as I doubt that the "point last crossed" is actually outside the PA - picture the ball not quite touching the yellow line - and convince an official there is room there to drop, to establish the reference point, and then go sideways.

[fairways4life]

You're forgetting "estimated point" which is the old "point last crossed". That's where the ball crosses the hazard line which you line up that point with the "hole" (which used to be flagstick).

 

THEN you add in the new "reference point". There is no requirement, yet, that the new "reference point" needs to be outside the current hazard or "behind the yellow hazard" as the old rules required.

 

In the discussed scenario, a ball rolling back into a PA, you line up the PLC (estimated point), with the "hole" as we've always done. But now you can make your "reference point", say, 1 inch behind the estimated point and inside the PA. Then your drop has to be within 1 CL of that reference point where, in this scenario, most of the "relief area" is actually outside the penalty area within 1 CL of the reference point.

 

The limits on Relief Area say, "may be in any area of the course except the same penalty area BUT" and it's that "BUT" that undermines the previous statement that the relief area can't be in the same penalty area. Add the statement after the BUT to the Decision posted above and that's what this is all about.

 

In the link there are 2 descriptions for YELLOW PA. The only "picture" for yellow PA shows both scenarios; S&D and reference point/relief area.

 

However there are 2 separate explanations.

 

The first is stroke and distance.

 

The 2nd says "(2) The player may take back-on-the-line relief by dropping the original ball or another ball in a relief area based on a reference line going straight back from the hole through point X.

 

That puts the ball back behind the hazard as I doubt that the "point last crossed" is actually outside the PA - picture the ball not quite touching the yellow line - and convince an official there is room there to drop, to establish the reference point, and then go sideways.

 

Point X is simply the point at which the ball crossed the yellow line (rolling from outside the penalty area to inside the penalty area). Point X is right on top of the yellow line.

 

You then go backwards on that line as far as you want. You do not need to go so far back that you are now back outside of the penalty area again. It does not give a minimum for how far you must go back. You start directly behind Point X and then start working your way back. Let's say you only go 6 inches back and decide to stop and use that as your reference point. If one club length can extend outside of the penalty area from that point, you now have a valid relief area. Drop and hit away.

[Mr. Bean]

Just one wee amendment, Augster. You can mark your relief area with a shorter club than your longest one. But a club-length is still the length of your longest. That means that if you measured with a wedge, say, and your ball rolled after hitting the ground beyond the length or two lengths of your wedge but stopped within one or two club-lengths as measured by your longest club, it is in play.

 

That ball would be in play even if it rolled 5 cl's. However, in that case the ball would have to be re-dropped but it would still be in play.

[Mr. Bean]

• 
  Question about the flagstick and new "holed" definition:
   

  If a player's ball comes to rest against the flagstick left in the hole:
  If any part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green, the ball is treated as holed even if the entire ball is not below the surface."

   
  What's the test it verify the ball has broken the putting surface if it's leaning against the flagstick to avoid the inevitable "No it isn't" "Yes it is" argument? Say the pole was leaning ever so slightly towards the direction of the putt and stopped the ball. A visual check would require getting down on to the knees, and even then you're left with a "no it isn't/yes it is" (look at it from this angle!)
   
  --kC
  

   
  Lean the flagstick in the opposite direction and see if the ball falls in would be my guess.
  

   
  I am afraid that is not the correct thing to do:
   
  Rule 13.2c
  If a player’s ball comes to rest against the flagstick left in the hole:
  
  • If any part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green, the ball is treated as holed even if the entire ball is not below the surface.
    
  • If no part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green:
    
    • The ball is not holed and must be played as it lies.
      
    • If the flagstick is removed and the ball moves (whether it falls into the hole or moves away from the hole), there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced on the lip of the hole (see Rule 14.2).
      

  [*]That Rule suggests that one needs to establish whether the ball is in the hole or not. Without doing that moving the flagstick results in replacing the ball outside the hole.

The last sentence above ("Without doing that.....") is WRONG. Whether the ball is in or not is a matter of fact. That last arrow point from the rule ("If the flagstick is removed..." only applies "If no part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green". So what do you need to do if the flagstick is moved and you haven't yet decided if part of the ball is below the surface of the green? You have to resolve the question of fact by assembling any/all available evidence and making the factual call, for example, recreate the ball against flagstick situation and check properly if ball is "holed". You replace ball outside the hole only after you conclude ball was not holed.

 

I believe the problem was establishing whether the ball is in the hole or not. Without having established that one cannot assume the ball was in the hole thus my answer was as it was.

 

And determining that AFTER having moved the ball would be ever so more difficult, don't you think..?

 

But as already said, this will not be an issue in our lifetime.

[Mr. Bean]

Sooooo ..... I believe this third line answers the question of whether or not a reference point can be inside a penalty area. It clearly states that a reference area + relief area CAN include multiple areas of the course ("If more than one area of the course is located within one club length of the reference point...")

 

I interpret this to mean that the reference point can indeed be established inside the penalty area and the relief area can be established outside of that penalty area.

 

What is a reference area..?

 

The third bullet is consistent with the Interpretation 17.1etc. where a small part of the relief area is in the penalty area (or vice versa, just how one wishes to see it). So this part of the Rule clearly says that the entire relief area does not have to be outside the penalty area one is taking the relief from.

 

However, the question whether the reference point may be in the same penalty area still remains as that is not clearly written in the Rules. If we, as Collin suggested, forget the purpose of the Rule as it is written today and only use what is written in the new Rules, the reference point may locate in the same penalty area. Somehow I just doubt that is what the RB's have meant but this remains to be seen.

[fairways4life]

Sooooo ..... I believe this third line answers the question of whether or not a reference point can be inside a penalty area. It clearly states that a reference area + relief area CAN include multiple areas of the course ("If more than one area of the course is located within one club length of the reference point...")

 

I interpret this to mean that the reference point can indeed be established inside the penalty area and the relief area can be established outside of that penalty area.

 

What is a reference area..?

 

The third bullet is consistent with the Interpretation 17.1etc. where a small part of the relief area is in the penalty area (or vice versa, just how one wishes to see it). So this part of the Rule clearly says that the entire relief area does not have to be outside the penalty area one is taking the relief from.

 

However, the question whether the reference point may be in the same penalty area still remains as that is not clearly written in the Rules. If we, as Collin suggested, forget the purpose of the Rule as it is written today and only use what is written in the new Rules, the reference point may locate in the same penalty area. Somehow I just doubt that is what the RB's have meant but this remains to be seen.

 

By "reference area" I meant to say "reference point." Typo.

[ruca]

An alternative interpretation is that the entirety of the relief area must not be in the same penalty area wrt yellow PA relief. So if you choose a reference point that is less than a clublength from the penalty area whether in it or even outside of it, some of the relief area will be in the same penalty area and so is not allowed. This is because the relief area is a clublength either side of your reference point no nearer the hole.

The issue then becomes whether the rules allow a portion of the relief area to not be in the same penalty area.

As stated, it just says "the relief area", which I interpret as meaning all of it.

My interpretation means you have to choose a reference point that is more than one clublength away from the penalty area, otherwise some part of the relief area is in it, and thus not allowed. Thus you can only choose a point behind the yellow penalty area.

[Colin L]

An alternative interpretation is that the entirety of the relief area must not be in the same penalty area wrt yellow PA relief.

 

Where does that interpretation come from?

[Colin L]

Just one wee amendment, Augster. You can mark your relief area with a shorter club than your longest one. But a club-length is still the length of your longest. That means that if you measured with a wedge, say, and your ball rolled after hitting the ground beyond the length or two lengths of your wedge but stopped within one or two club-lengths as measured by your longest club, it is in play.

 

That ball would be in play even if it rolled 5 cl's. However, in that case the ball would have to be re-dropped but it would still be in play.

 

Thanks, Mr Bean. That did not say what it should have said. I've revised the original posting to say that it is in the relief area and must be played as it lies.

[antip]

[*]Rule 13.2c

If a player’s ball comes to rest against the flagstick left in the hole:

• If any part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green, the ball is treated as holed even if the entire ball is not below the surface.
  
• If no part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green:
  
  • The ball is not holed and must be played as it lies.
    
  • If the flagstick is removed and the ball moves (whether it falls into the hole or moves away from the hole), there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced on the lip of the hole (see Rule 14.2).
    

[*]That Rule suggests that one needs to establish whether the ball is in the hole or not. Without doing that moving the flagstick results in replacing the ball outside the hole.

The last sentence above ("Without doing that.....") is WRONG. Whether the ball is in or not is a matter of fact. That last arrow point from the rule ("If the flagstick is removed..." only applies "If no part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green". So what do you need to do if the flagstick is moved and you haven't yet decided if part of the ball is below the surface of the green? You have to resolve the question of fact by assembling any/all available evidence and making the factual call, for example, recreate the ball against flagstick situation and check properly if ball is "holed". You replace ball outside the hole only after you conclude ball was not holed.

 

I believe the problem was establishing whether the ball is in the hole or not. Without having established that one cannot assume the ball was in the hole thus my answer was as it was.

 

And determining that AFTER having moved the ball would be ever so more difficult, don't you think..?

 

But as already said, this will not be an issue in our lifetime.

I suggest you get out on the course and experiment. You will discover it is easy to verify whether ball is below the level of the green. It is practically impossible to have a flag still holding itself up in the hole with a ball lodged against the flag. That is my experience with a number of different flagstick types in my neck of the woods.

 

The rule requires you to make a judgement one way or another. Your suggestion that if you forget to do it before moving the flag then you must replace on the lip is incorrect. And this is not a rare situation, I had one in my game on Monday. Pre-January, you need to move the flagstick gently to get the ball to drop and if it doesn't you place on lip. January, you just pick up unless you have really big flagsticks that keep the ball above the green. It's a fun experiment anyway.

[Sawgrass]

As to the issue of when a particular reference point provides a relief area which is partially acceptable and partially unacceptable due to "location limitation" in the rules, not only does the Interpretation I cited seem to confirm that the acceptable part may still be used, but look at the illustration in 16.1a (and the location limitation described in 16.1b). In this illustration you see two relief areas. Commonly, a relief area is a semicircle. But here, because part of the semicircle is unaccpetable since it doesn't provide relief from the obstruction, only a quarter of a circle is shown as the acceptable drop location. The fact that part of the arc on either side of the NPR would be in an unacceptable location does not negate the remaining portion of the relief area.

 

Similarly, as I trust we all know, an OB line can limit the portion of a 2018 relief drop. I'm sure that remains the case for any drop in 2019, it must be on the course (in an area of hte course).

 

The equitable solution for all of this is to allow the use of any acceptable part of a relief area. If this yellow staked problem is to be fixed, I think it would be fixed by some other mechanism than disallowing an entire relief area when part of it is unacceptable -- that would be way too inconsistent with other relief areas, and have mind-boggling implications.

[davep043]

[*]Rule 13.2c

If a player’s ball comes to rest against the flagstick left in the hole:

• If any part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green, the ball is treated as holed even if the entire ball is not below the surface.
  
• If no part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green:
  
  • The ball is not holed and must be played as it lies.
    
  • If the flagstick is removed and the ball moves (whether it falls into the hole or moves away from the hole), there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced on the lip of the hole (see Rule 14.2).
    

[*]That Rule suggests that one needs to establish whether the ball is in the hole or not. Without doing that moving the flagstick results in replacing the ball outside the hole.

The last sentence above ("Without doing that.....") is WRONG. Whether the ball is in or not is a matter of fact. That last arrow point from the rule ("If the flagstick is removed..." only applies "If no part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green". So what do you need to do if the flagstick is moved and you haven't yet decided if part of the ball is below the surface of the green? You have to resolve the question of fact by assembling any/all available evidence and making the factual call, for example, recreate the ball against flagstick situation and check properly if ball is "holed". You replace ball outside the hole only after you conclude ball was not holed.

 

I believe the problem was establishing whether the ball is in the hole or not. Without having established that one cannot assume the ball was in the hole thus my answer was as it was.

 

And determining that AFTER having moved the ball would be ever so more difficult, don't you think..?

 

But as already said, this will not be an issue in our lifetime.

I suggest you get out on the course and experiment. You will discover it is easy to verify whether ball is below the level of the green. It is practically impossible to have a flag still holding itself up in the hole with a ball lodged against the flag. That is my experience with a number of different flagstick types in my neck of the woods.

 

The rule requires you to make a judgement one way or another. Your suggestion that if you forget to do it before moving the flag then you must replace on the lip is incorrect. And this is not a rare situation, I had one in my game on Monday. Pre-January, you need to move the flagstick gently to get the ball to drop and if it doesn't you place on lip. January, you just pick up unless you have really big flagsticks that keep the ball above the green. It's a fun experiment anyway.

I'm thinking of some pretty simply geometry. As soon as more than 1/2 of the ball is over the cup, it starts to drop down below the edge of the cup, so it is by definition "holed". The cup is 4.25 inches, the recommendation for a flagstick diameter (at the green surface level) is 0.75 or less. I'm certain I've never seen a flagstick greater than this. That leaves 3.5 inches, or about 1.75 inches on all sides if the flag is perfectly centered. For a ball to be leaning against the flagstick, and still not be at least halfway over the hole, the stick has to be off-center by almost a full inch. That simply doesn't happen unless someone has completely missed getting the stick back into its hole at the bottom of the cup. If a ball is leaning against the flagstick, it will almost certainly be within the definition of "holed".