2019 Rules of Golf

[Shilgy]

Here's a peculiarity with the new rules. Last week, if my ball had wrong green interference, I would always get a (mandatory) free drop. Today, if no Local Rule is in force, I may be in a situation where I don't get a free drop from wrong green interference. Any takers on how this might happen?

are you sure? Rule 13.1f relief must be taken from wrong putting green.

[Matt J]

My rule going forward with the flag stick, I'm not asking and unless the player whose turn it is to play says something...I am not touching the flag nor asking.

 

This is really the only sensible solution. We basically went from a system where the flag had to be out to now it will nearly have to be in. Ridiculous.

[Mr. Bean]

That was the complaint many of us made all along, Sawgrass.

 

What was?

 

It would be nice if someone besides yourself had an idea of the post you are referring to...

 

So, next time you just might want to quote...

[nsxguy]

Comparison 1: Assume ball enters PA from green side and the player takes BOL relief from a relief area established using a reference point that is immediately behind the point where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA. This relief area (assuming it exists - in many/most yellow PAs it will not exist) is identical regardless of whether the PA is yellow or red and that is the first comparison I was discussing.

 

I completely disagree that "many/most" yellow PAs will not provide a green-side segment of a BOL relief area for a ball that last crossed on the green side. If the arc of the yellow line at the point last crossed moves even slightly away from the hole (as it often does) and if you select a reference point just inside the PA, there will frequently be a place within 1 CL to drop -- particularly if you don't mind getting your feet wet when you take your next stroke. Having a hole on the extreme left or right of the green will often expand the useful portion of the relief area. (All of which assumes that this entire concept is legal, which I do.)

 

I have it on good authority that a team from the USGA is "sitting down" discussing this issue. I presume that whenever they again "stand up" there will have to be a meeting of minds with those from across the pond.

 

Wonder if the pond is marked yellow or red . . .

 

BTW Saw, anything ever come of this ?

 

I haven't heard back from the USGA and although Christmas is a very quiet time for most "businesses" these Rules are now the "Law of the Land".

 

Has ANYBODY who's contacted the USGA or R&A on this particular yellow PA question received an answer ? CAN there be a drop to the side of a yellow PA on the green side of the PA as the Rules now "state" ?

[Mr. Bean]

My rule going forward with the flag stick, I'm not asking and unless the player whose turn it is to play says something...I am not touching the flag nor asking.

 

This is really the only sensible solution. We basically went from a system where the flag had to be out to now it will nearly have to be in. Ridiculous.

 

The thing here is to understand why the change was made. After that it is easy: just take the pin out as soon as every player is on the green and leave it out.

 

And leave all of those players who want to putt their half-a-meter putts with the pin in to amuse themselves while you head for the next tee.

[Matt J]

That was the complaint many of us made all along, Sawgrass.

 

What was?

 

It would be nice if someone besides yourself had an idea of the post you are referring to...

 

So, next time you just might want to quote...

 

Post 374. The last substantial thing he posted. If you read the rest of the post I would hope you could ascertain which of his posts I was referencing.

 

Some of us don't want to sort through 59 quote boxes and can follow the conversation without them. It was a choice, not an oversight.

 

I am typically, despite some of the snark that gets flung around this place, a very polite playing partner. But, I do not kid, I will tell a guy to go replace the pin himself the first time someone asks for the stick when he can see the putt and it has already been removed. I hope this rule gets reversed before the end of this year.

[Mr. Bean]

That was the complaint many of us made all along, Sawgrass.

 

What was?

 

It would be nice if someone besides yourself had an idea of the post you are referring to...

 

So, next time you just might want to quote...

 

Post 374. The last substantial thing he posted.

 

So... the posts he wrote after #374 were not substantial..?

 

Ok.

[SNIPERBBB]

My rule going forward with the flag stick, I'm not asking and unless the player whose turn it is to play says something...I am not touching the flag nor asking.

 

Good to see the spirit of cooperation lives on. :)

 

It's not that I'm not wanting to be a caddy but I definitely don't want to be singing the jeopardy song all day.

[GSDriver]

We were discussing the new 'millennial friendly' rules over the weekend round, and didn't anyone think of the delays that no doubt will be introduced with various players wanting the pin and those who want it pulled? This is going to add the delay it was intended to reduce, at least that's our bet.

[Mudguard]

We were discussing the new 'millennial friendly' rules over the weekend round, and didn't anyone think of the delays that no doubt will be introduced with various players wanting the pin and those who want it pulled? This is going to add the delay it was intended to reduce, at least that's our bet.

I think with a regular group it will be simply a matter of establishing who wants it left in constantly, and then they'll putt out first.

[rogolf]

Comparison 1: Assume ball enters PA from green side and the player takes BOL relief from a relief area established using a reference point that is immediately behind the point where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA. This relief area (assuming it exists - in many/most yellow PAs it will not exist) is identical regardless of whether the PA is yellow or red and that is the first comparison I was discussing.

 

I completely disagree that "many/most" yellow PAs will not provide a green-side segment of a BOL relief area for a ball that last crossed on the green side. If the arc of the yellow line at the point last crossed moves even slightly away from the hole (as it often does) and if you select a reference point just inside the PA, there will frequently be a place within 1 CL to drop -- particularly if you don't mind getting your feet wet when you take your next stroke. Having a hole on the extreme left or right of the green will often expand the useful portion of the relief area. (All of which assumes that this entire concept is legal, which I do.)

 

I have it on good authority that a team from the USGA is "sitting down" discussing this issue. I presume that whenever they again "stand up" there will have to be a meeting of minds with those from across the pond.

 

Wonder if the pond is marked yellow or red . . .

 

BTW Saw, anything ever come of this ?

 

I haven't heard back from the USGA and although Christmas is a very quiet time for most "businesses" these Rules are now the "Law of the Land".

 

Has ANYBODY who's contacted the USGA or R&A on this particular yellow PA question received an answer ? CAN there be a drop to the side of a yellow PA on the green side of the PA as the Rules now "state" ?

It it is being discussed at USGA or R&A, they will need to be in touch with each other to determine a unified and official answer. This may take some time as it may not be the only item they are dealing with. Typically, it would need agreement by the Joint Rules Committee, the R&A Rules Committee and the USGA Rules Committee and then by R&A and USGA Boards.

[fairways4life]

Comparison 1: Assume ball enters PA from green side and the player takes BOL relief from a relief area established using a reference point that is immediately behind the point where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA. This relief area (assuming it exists - in many/most yellow PAs it will not exist) is identical regardless of whether the PA is yellow or red and that is the first comparison I was discussing.

 

I completely disagree that "many/most" yellow PAs will not provide a green-side segment of a BOL relief area for a ball that last crossed on the green side. If the arc of the yellow line at the point last crossed moves even slightly away from the hole (as it often does) and if you select a reference point just inside the PA, there will frequently be a place within 1 CL to drop -- particularly if you don't mind getting your feet wet when you take your next stroke. Having a hole on the extreme left or right of the green will often expand the useful portion of the relief area. (All of which assumes that this entire concept is legal, which I do.)

 

I have it on good authority that a team from the USGA is "sitting down" discussing this issue. I presume that whenever they again "stand up" there will have to be a meeting of minds with those from across the pond.

 

Wonder if the pond is marked yellow or red . . .

 

BTW Saw, anything ever come of this ?

 

I haven't heard back from the USGA and although Christmas is a very quiet time for most "businesses" these Rules are now the "Law of the Land".

 

Has ANYBODY who's contacted the USGA or R&A on this particular yellow PA question received an answer ? CAN there be a drop to the side of a yellow PA on the green side of the PA as the Rules now "state" ?

 

I emailed them on Dec. 17th. Received an automated reply that says they usually respond to rules inquires within 3-5 business days. Still nothing (been checking the spam inbox too).

[Sawgrass]

Comparison 1: Assume ball enters PA from green side and the player takes BOL relief from a relief area established using a reference point that is immediately behind the point where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA. This relief area (assuming it exists - in many/most yellow PAs it will not exist) is identical regardless of whether the PA is yellow or red and that is the first comparison I was discussing.

 

I completely disagree that "many/most" yellow PAs will not provide a green-side segment of a BOL relief area for a ball that last crossed on the green side. If the arc of the yellow line at the point last crossed moves even slightly away from the hole (as it often does) and if you select a reference point just inside the PA, there will frequently be a place within 1 CL to drop -- particularly if you don't mind getting your feet wet when you take your next stroke. Having a hole on the extreme left or right of the green will often expand the useful portion of the relief area. (All of which assumes that this entire concept is legal, which I do.)

 

I have it on good authority that a team from the USGA is "sitting down" discussing this issue. I presume that whenever they again "stand up" there will have to be a meeting of minds with those from across the pond.

 

Wonder if the pond is marked yellow or red . . .

 

BTW Saw, anything ever come of this ?

 

I haven't heard back from the USGA and although Christmas is a very quiet time for most "businesses" these Rules are now the "Law of the Land".

 

Has ANYBODY who's contacted the USGA or R&A on this particular yellow PA question received an answer ? CAN there be a drop to the side of a yellow PA on the green side of the PA as the Rules now "state" ?

I just learned, today, that there’s nothing to learn today.

[Sawgrass]

Here's a peculiarity with the new rules. Last week, if my ball had wrong green interference, I would always get a (mandatory) free drop. Today, if no Local Rule is in force, I may be in a situation where I don't get a free drop from wrong green interference. Any takers on how this might happen?

 

Well, America is the Land of Promises and Fortune, so I guess that is something that could only happen there.

 

Did I win??

You do not win. Nor do you win in the following situation:

 

Your ball is in a relatively flat bunker that abuts a wrong green. Your normal stance has one foot on the green, so you pick up your ball in order to respectfully take free relief, only to discover that there’s no place in the bunker in which to drop that gives relief from your normal stance and which is no closer to the hole.

 

Now what?

[Colin L]

Here's a peculiarity with the new rules. Last week, if my ball had wrong green interference, I would always get a (mandatory) free drop. Today, if no Local Rule is in force, I may be in a situation where I don't get a free drop from wrong green interference. Any takers on how this might happen?

 

Well, America is the Land of Promises and Fortune, so I guess that is something that could only happen there.

 

Did I win??

You do not win. Nor do you win in the following situation:

 

Your ball is in a relatively flat bunker that abuts a wrong green. Your normal stance has one foot on the green, so you pick up your ball in order to respectfully take free relief, only to discover that there’s no place in the bunker in which to drop that gives relief from your normal stance and which is no closer to the hole.

 

Now what?

 

Can you provide a diagram to show the shape of such a bunker which would not allow there to be a relief area? It would need to be remarkably thin and I just can't see it.

[Shilgy]

Here's a peculiarity with the new rules. Last week, if my ball had wrong green interference, I would always get a (mandatory) free drop. Today, if no Local Rule is in force, I may be in a situation where I don't get a free drop from wrong green interference. Any takers on how this might happen?

 

Well, America is the Land of Promises and Fortune, so I guess that is something that could only happen there.

 

Did I win??

You do not win. Nor do you win in the following situation:

 

Your ball is in a relatively flat bunker that abuts a wrong green. Your normal stance has one foot on the green, so you pick up your ball in order to respectfully take free relief, only to discover that there’s no place in the bunker in which to drop that gives relief from your normal stance and which is no closer to the hole.

 

Now what?

See committee procedures.. The committee may adopt a local rule denying relief from a wrong green that only interferes with the area of intended stance.

 

[Sawgrass]

Here's a peculiarity with the new rules. Last week, if my ball had wrong green interference, I would always get a (mandatory) free drop. Today, if no Local Rule is in force, I may be in a situation where I don't get a free drop from wrong green interference. Any takers on how this might happen?

 

Well, America is the Land of Promises and Fortune, so I guess that is something that could only happen there.

 

Did I win??

You do not win. Nor do you win in the following situation:

 

Your ball is in a relatively flat bunker that abuts a wrong green. Your normal stance has one foot on the green, so you pick up your ball in order to respectfully take free relief, only to discover that there's no place in the bunker in which to drop that gives relief from your normal stance and which is no closer to the hole.

 

Now what?

See committee procedures.. The committee may adopt a local rule denying relief from a wrong green that only interferes with the area of intended stance.

That's why my question stipulated, "no local rule."

[Shilgy]

Here's a peculiarity with the new rules. Last week, if my ball had wrong green interference, I would always get a (mandatory) free drop. Today, if no Local Rule is in force, I may be in a situation where I don't get a free drop from wrong green interference. Any takers on how this might happen?

 

Well, America is the Land of Promises and Fortune, so I guess that is something that could only happen there.

 

Did I win??

You do not win. Nor do you win in the following situation:

 

Your ball is in a relatively flat bunker that abuts a wrong green. Your normal stance has one foot on the green, so you pick up your ball in order to respectfully take free relief, only to discover that there's no place in the bunker in which to drop that gives relief from your normal stance and which is no closer to the hole.

 

Now what?

See committee procedures.. The committee may adopt a local rule denying relief from a wrong green that only interferes with the area of intended stance.

That's why my question stipulated, "no local rule."

From the newb, how was it different last year?

 

edit look and learn... Used to not include stance.

[Mr. Bean]

Here's a peculiarity with the new rules. Last week, if my ball had wrong green interference, I would always get a (mandatory) free drop. Today, if no Local Rule is in force, I may be in a situation where I don't get a free drop from wrong green interference. Any takers on how this might happen?

 

Well, America is the Land of Promises and Fortune, so I guess that is something that could only happen there.

 

Did I win??

You do not win. Nor do you win in the following situation:

 

Your ball is in a relatively flat bunker that abuts a wrong green. Your normal stance has one foot on the green, so you pick up your ball in order to respectfully take free relief, only to discover that there’s no place in the bunker in which to drop that gives relief from your normal stance and which is no closer to the hole.

 

Now what?

 

As I read Rule 13.1f I find myself in the same discussion there has been about the reference point being in the Penalty Area.

 

Rule 13.1f says that the Relief Area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point. This is exactly the same wrt PA's. There we all concluded that it is not necessary to have the ENTIRE relief area outside the PA.

 

So, in your example part of the relief area could be outside the bunker and that would be a place to drop a ball. This is because the wording is the same as in PA's, so not ALL of the relief area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point.

 

Furthermore, it is said in the Rules that if there are more than one area of the course in the relief area the ball must stay on the same area it touches when dropped. So, you drop the ball outside the bunker and it stays there. AND it is not said that you need to drop yor ball on the same area of the course where the reference point is. End of story.

 

Comments?

[Sawgrass]

Here's a peculiarity with the new rules. Last week, if my ball had wrong green interference, I would always get a (mandatory) free drop. Today, if no Local Rule is in force, I may be in a situation where I don't get a free drop from wrong green interference. Any takers on how this might happen?

 

Well, America is the Land of Promises and Fortune, so I guess that is something that could only happen there.

 

Did I win??

You do not win. Nor do you win in the following situation:

 

Your ball is in a relatively flat bunker that abuts a wrong green. Your normal stance has one foot on the green, so you pick up your ball in order to respectfully take free relief, only to discover that there’s no place in the bunker in which to drop that gives relief from your normal stance and which is no closer to the hole.

 

Now what?

 

Can you provide a diagram to show the shape of such a bunker which would not allow there to be a relief area? It would need to be remarkably thin and I just can't see it.

I never understood how to post a photo or drawing, it seemed super complicated when I looked, but here's an explanation:

 

The bunker is at the edge of a wrong green, and it's between the wrong green and the hole being played. Your ball is at the rounded edge of the bunker which is closest to the wrong green and furthest from your hole. (Every place in the bunker is closer to the hole being played.) You are obligated to drop the ball you just picked up, but there's no place to drop it for free, and worse you have touched your ball illegally since there is no relief under the rule that caused you to lift it.

 

Before lifting the ball you could have stood off the green with an unusual stance, or punched sideways out of the bunker, but having failed to think this through in advance you've seriously harmed yourself.

[SNIPERBBB]

It would have to be against the back of the bunker, furthest away from the target green.

[Sawgrass]

Here's a peculiarity with the new rules. Last week, if my ball had wrong green interference, I would always get a (mandatory) free drop. Today, if no Local Rule is in force, I may be in a situation where I don't get a free drop from wrong green interference. Any takers on how this might happen?

 

Well, America is the Land of Promises and Fortune, so I guess that is something that could only happen there.

 

Did I win??

You do not win. Nor do you win in the following situation:

 

Your ball is in a relatively flat bunker that abuts a wrong green. Your normal stance has one foot on the green, so you pick up your ball in order to respectfully take free relief, only to discover that there’s no place in the bunker in which to drop that gives relief from your normal stance and which is no closer to the hole.

 

Now what?

 

As I read Rule 13.1f I find myself in the same discussion there has been about the reference point being in the Penalty Area.

 

Rule 13.1f says that the Relief Area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point. This is exactly the same wrt PA's. There we all concluded that it is not necessary to have the ENTIRE relief area outside the PA.

 

So, in your example part of the relief area could we outside the bunker and that would be a place to drop a ball.

Taking rellief from a wrong green requires you to drop in the same area of the course as your ball resides. That's bunker in my example.

[Sawgrass]

 

 

Well, America is the Land of Promises and Fortune, so I guess that is something that could only happen there.

 

Did I win??

You do not win. Nor do you win in the following situation:

 

Your ball is in a relatively flat bunker that abuts a wrong green. Your normal stance has one foot on the green, so you pick up your ball in order to respectfully take free relief, only to discover that there's no place in the bunker in which to drop that gives relief from your normal stance and which is no closer to the hole.

 

Now what?

See committee procedures.. The committee may adopt a local rule denying relief from a wrong green that only interferes with the area of intended stance.

That's why my question stipulated, "no local rule."

From the newb, how was it different last year?

 

edit look and learn... Used to not include stance.

Last year interference only existed if the ball was on the green, so no problem finding an area through the green upon which to drop.

[Mr. Bean]

Here's a peculiarity with the new rules. Last week, if my ball had wrong green interference, I would always get a (mandatory) free drop. Today, if no Local Rule is in force, I may be in a situation where I don't get a free drop from wrong green interference. Any takers on how this might happen?

 

Well, America is the Land of Promises and Fortune, so I guess that is something that could only happen there.

 

Did I win??

You do not win. Nor do you win in the following situation:

 

Your ball is in a relatively flat bunker that abuts a wrong green. Your normal stance has one foot on the green, so you pick up your ball in order to respectfully take free relief, only to discover that there’s no place in the bunker in which to drop that gives relief from your normal stance and which is no closer to the hole.

 

Now what?

 

As I read Rule 13.1f I find myself in the same discussion there has been about the reference point being in the Penalty Area.

 

Rule 13.1f says that the Relief Area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point. This is exactly the same wrt PA's. There we all concluded that it is not necessary to have the ENTIRE relief area outside the PA.

 

So, in your example part of the relief area could we outside the bunker and that would be a place to drop a ball.

Taking rellief from a wrong green requires you to drop in the same area of the course as your ball resides. That's bunker in my example.

 

No. Read more carefully the Rule and what I wrote.

[Shilgy]

Here's a peculiarity with the new rules. Last week, if my ball had wrong green interference, I would always get a (mandatory) free drop. Today, if no Local Rule is in force, I may be in a situation where I don't get a free drop from wrong green interference. Any takers on how this might happen?

 

Well, America is the Land of Promises and Fortune, so I guess that is something that could only happen there.

 

Did I win??

You do not win. Nor do you win in the following situation:

 

Your ball is in a relatively flat bunker that abuts a wrong green. Your normal stance has one foot on the green, so you pick up your ball in order to respectfully take free relief, only to discover that there’s no place in the bunker in which to drop that gives relief from your normal stance and which is no closer to the hole.

 

Now what?

 

As I read Rule 13.1f I find myself in the same discussion there has been about the reference point being in the Penalty Area.

 

Rule 13.1f says that the Relief Area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point. This is exactly the same wrt PA's. There we all concluded that it is not necessary to have the ENTIRE relief area outside the PA.

 

So, in your example part of the relief area could we outside the bunker and that would be a place to drop a ball. This is because the wording is the same as in PA's, so not ALL of the relief area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point.

 

Furthermore, it is said in the Rules that if there are more than one area of the course in the relief area the ball must stay on the same area it touches when dropped. So, you drop the ball outside the bunker and it stays there. AND it is not said that you need to drop yor ball on the same area of the course where the reference point is. End of story.

 

Comments?

13.1f says the relief area has to be in the same area as the reference point.

[Mr. Bean]

13.1f says the relief area has to be in the same area as the reference point.

 

Yea yea yea...

 

We had this discussion earlier in the Yellow PA thread. There it was clearly agreed that ALL of the relief area does NOT have to be in the same area as the reference point.

 

This is one of those things the RB's should have been more careful. Either the entire RA MUST be in the same area of the course than the reference point or NOT. But as we have learned from the Interpretations the latter option is the one.

[Shilgy]

13.1f says the relief area has to be in the same area as the reference point.

 

Yea yea yea...

 

We had this discussion earlier in the Yellow PA thread. There it was clearly agreed that ALL of the relief area does NOT have to be in the same area as the reference point.

 

This is one of those things the RB's should have been more careful. Either the entire RA MUST be in the same area of the course than the reference point or NOT. But as we have learned from the Interpretations the latter option is the one.

Yes yes yes, the penalty area relief rule is different than wrong green. Penalty area relief explicitly states the relief area can include various areas of the course... The ball must be played from the area it first touches when dropped.

The wrong green relief specifically states the relief area must be in the same area as the reference point. That is different than the other rule.

[Sawgrass]

13.1f says the relief area has to be in the same area as the reference point.

 

Yea yea yea...

 

We had this discussion earlier in the Yellow PA thread. There it was clearly agreed that ALL of the relief area does NOT have to be in the same area as the reference point.

 

This is one of those things the RB's should have been more careful. Either the entire RA MUST be in the same area of the course than the reference point or NOT. But as we have learned from the Interpretations the latter option is the one.

Yes yes yes, the penalty area relief rule is different than wrong green. Penalty area relief explicitly states the relief area can include various areas of the course... The ball must be played from the area it first touches when dropped.

The wrong green relief specifically states the relief area must be in the same area as the reference point. That is different than the other rule.

I'm with you, Shilgy. 13.1f says that the reference point must be in the same area of the course where the original ball came to rest, and that the relief area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point. (That's 13.1f (2))

[Shilgy]

13.1f says the relief area has to be in the same area as the reference point.

 

Yea yea yea...

 

We had this discussion earlier in the Yellow PA thread. There it was clearly agreed that ALL of the relief area does NOT have to be in the same area as the reference point.

 

This is one of those things the RB's should have been more careful. Either the entire RA MUST be in the same area of the course than the reference point or NOT. But as we have learned from the Interpretations the latter option is the one.

Yes yes yes, the penalty area relief rule is different than wrong green. Penalty area relief explicitly states the relief area can include various areas of the course... The ball must be played from the area it first touches when dropped.

The wrong green relief specifically states the relief area must be in the same area as the reference point. That is different than the other rule.

I'm with you, Shilgy. 13.1f says that the reference point must be in the same area of the course where the original ball came to rest, and that the relief area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point. (That's 13.1f (2))

The thing I most like about the new rules is that are much easier for the layman to understand.Less legalese if you will.

[Mr. Bean]

13.1f says the relief area has to be in the same area as the reference point.

 

Yea yea yea...

 

We had this discussion earlier in the Yellow PA thread. There it was clearly agreed that ALL of the relief area does NOT have to be in the same area as the reference point.

 

This is one of those things the RB's should have been more careful. Either the entire RA MUST be in the same area of the course than the reference point or NOT. But as we have learned from the Interpretations the latter option is the one.

Yes yes yes, the penalty area relief rule is different than wrong green. Penalty area relief explicitly states the relief area can include various areas of the course... The ball must be played from the area it first touches when dropped.

The wrong green relief specifically states the relief area must be in the same area as the reference point. That is different than the other rule.

I'm with you, Shilgy. 13.1f says that the reference point must be in the same area of the course where the original ball came to rest, and that the relief area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point. (That's 13.1f (2))

 

And Rule 17.1d(2) says 'May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area'.

 

As we have concluded this is not entirely true as part of the RA may be in the same penalty area. Thus following the same logic all of the relief area in R13.1f does not have to be on the same area of the course etc...'

 

I am taking this up in order to show that these discrepancies plowed by the RB's are not helping us in interpreting the Rules. Also I do not believe it has been the meaning that without a certain LR in force you cannot get a free relief from a condition you are obliged to take according to the Rules.