2019 Rules of Golf

[Hawkeye77]

That was the complaint many of us made all along, Sawgrass.

 

What was?

 

It would be nice if someone besides yourself had an idea of the post you are referring to...

 

So, next time you just might want to quote...

 

Post 374. The last substantial thing he posted.

 

So... the posts he wrote after #374 were not substantial..?

 

Ok.

 

No, they were not substantial. The post I referenced is 375 words long, nearly the size of a small essay. He posted twice after that post and before I referenced the "substantial" post. They were both a sentence, 10 to 15 words. The definition of substantial is of considerable size.

 

I'm starting to get it. A bunch of you simply like to argue. Hence the continual quagmire.

 

LOL, Mr. Bean going for the arguing about nothing related to the rules - cue post arguing about "related" in 3-2-1- ...

[Colin L]

Thanks to Sawgrass for the explanation of how the situation could arise. No need for that diagram - I can picture it now.

 

I have no concern that relief from a wrong green when your ball is in a bunker should result in a penalty. Otherwise it would be the only situation, would it not, in which you could get out of a bunker free? There are other ways in which you can end up not being able to find a spot in a bunker not nearer the hole to take free relief in a bunker and have to accept a penalty for relief outside it. For the player in the situation Sawgrass describes to have to take a penalty for his escape from the bunker is consistent with the principle that you never (dangerous word to use but I think correct) get out of a bunker without a penalty. For this player to look for a get-out-of-jail-free card to exit the bunker would be pushing his luck.

 

Ball in bunker and foot on wrong green? Take relief by dropping in the bunker if you can and then you have your shot out of it to make. If you can't find a spot not nearer the hole, getting out of the situation has to cost at least the equivalent of playing a shot out of the bunker but unfortunately is likely to cost more. Having lifted his ball prematurely, stroke and distance (if the distance isn't too great) could well be the cheapest option.

[Shilgy]

 

 

Now, let me get this straight.

 

Rule 13.1f says that you MUST take a relief from a Wrong Putting Green. If you do not, you get a penalty of 2 strokes.

 

Then there is a situation where the ball is in a bunker and there is no relief area for the player to drop his ball to get a free relief.

 

So, the player gets an automatic one stroke penalty for not being able to fulfill the demands of the Rule that says he MUST take a free relief from the condition.

 

Then comes a referee who says that this is fair. Keep smiling and take your medicine!

 

Are we all sharing the view that this is what the RB's have meant??

 

It is an unfortunate situation but the player is penalized for moving his ball when the rules don't allow for it. I'm sure you don't have anything against that principle.

 

The player does have other options available to him. Play in a direction with no interference from the green, take S&D or the two-shot drop out of the bunker. All of these actions are completely separate from moving your ball when you're not allowed to.

 

One easy way to avoid that extra penalty stroke is to ask for help from a referee before doing anything.

 

But I really should be sleeping and my brains aren't functioning very well anymore so I'll say good night for now.

My problem with it is your first sentence. In this situation you're correct... The rules don't "allow" the player to lift the ball, they in fact "demand" it. Perhaps it is obvious to our esteemed panel of referees but to the golfer that is quite conversant with the rules here goes by different steps. He knows the rule says he MUST move the ball if ball stance or swing are on wrong green. So his first step is to mark the spot, pick it up, and then look to drop in the proper spot. But alas, there is not one. Now what??? Penalize him for knowing he could not play from there? More harshly, according to some, than if he had played from there? I love playing my the rules but a player should not be penalized more harshly for playing by the rules than he is by hitting the ball into a penalty area. Further, if it is allowable to drop incorrectly, say from shoulder height, and correct it with no penalty by dropping from knee height this player should be allowed to correct his so called error of picking up a ball the rules tell him he cannot play and simply replace it.

[antip]

.

Think of it as a once in a lifetime opportunity to get REALLY familiar with Rule 14.5: Correcting mistake made in substituting, replacing, dropping and placing ball.

 

You must be Dr Pangloss, I presume.

Had to look that person up Colin. I wasn't aware that Voltaire ever wrote on the golf rules, I need to explore further.

 

But I'm a bit distressed that the good Dr came to a very stick end.

[bladehunter]

Okay, it's essential that I get this off my chest. I've spent countless hours learning and teaching the 2019 Rules. I was smugly comfortable with them. Then, today, New Year's day, Connecticut was unseasonably warm and I ventured out to play. Here's what happened the first time I used the 2019 rules in the real world:

 

The first time I took a drop I dumbly dropped from shoulder height. Bozo! I think I might have illegally played that ball if it wasn't for the fact that it ended up still impeded by the immovable obstruction from which I was taking relief, and when I had to drop again I remembered what the hell I was supposed to do. (Curtsey while I drop my ball.) If that wasn't dopey enough, every single time I took a drop after that, and there were several, (I would have scored better if the water on my course had been frozen!) I almost dropped from shoulder height until I caught myself at the last moment and dropped from my knee. Man, I've got to develop some new reflexes to go along with the new dogma!

 

The other terrorizing feature of my round is that my three friends and I were hopeless when we got to the green. We did save some time by naturally allowing a player on the green further from the hole to putt with the flagstick in, rather than have him wait for his buddy who was closer but off the green to play first (as has been our longtime custom to speed play outside of match play). But once we were all on the green I felt we spent way too much time figuring out what our friends wanted to do with the stick. And we sounded like a bunch of dopes,

 

"You want it in or out?"

 

"I don't care!"

 

"Okay, how about you?"

 

"Maybe instead of asking what someone wants we should wait for someone to tell us to pull or attend it."

 

Anyway, it surely won't take too long for us to work out something where we politely accommodate our friend's wishes and still move quickly, but it's not nearly as natural as my mind's eye told me it would be.

 

Welcome to 2019!

 

Lol. Thank you for being honest. Not that I expected less. That’s what my fears have been all along. It will take quite a bit of time to acclimate I’m afraid. We do most now without thinking. That means it’s an auto response basically. Now we must think through everything. Going to take more time.

[nsxguy]

Now, let me get this straight.

 

Rule 13.1f says that you MUST take a relief from a Wrong Putting Green. If you do not, you get a penalty of 2 strokes.

 

Then there is a situation where the ball is in a bunker and there is no relief area for the player to drop his ball to get a free relief.

 

So, the player gets an automatic one stroke penalty for not being able to fulfill the demands of the Rule that says he MUST take a free relief from the condition.

 

Then comes a referee who says that this is fair. Keep smiling and take your medicine!

 

Are we all sharing the view that this is what the RB's have meant??

 

It is an unfortunate situation but the player is penalized for moving his ball when the rules don't allow for it. I'm sure you don't have anything against that principle.

 

The player does have other options available to him. Play in a direction with no interference from the green, take S&D or the two-shot drop out of the bunker. All of these actions are completely separate from moving your ball when you're not allowed to.

 

One easy way to avoid that extra penalty stroke is to ask for help from a referee before doing anything.

 

But I really should be sleeping and my brains aren't functioning very well anymore so I'll say good night for now.

My problem with it is your first sentence. In this situation you're correct... The rules don't "allow" the player to lift the ball, they in fact "demand" it. Perhaps it is obvious to our esteemed panel of referees but to the golfer that is quite conversant with the rules here goes by different steps. He knows the rule says he MUST move the ball if ball stance or swing are on wrong green. So his first step is to mark the spot, pick it up, and then look to drop in the proper spot. But alas, there is not one. Now what??? Penalize him for knowing he could not play from there? More harshly, according to some, than if he had played from there? I love playing my the rules but a player should not be penalized more harshly for playing by the rules than he is by hitting the ball into a penalty area. Further, if it is allowable to drop incorrectly, say from shoulder height, and correct it with no penalty by dropping from knee height this player should be allowed to correct his so called error of picking up a ball the rules tell him he cannot play and simply replace it.

 

Well Shilgy, while I get what you're saying, I think whether the player MUST or CHOOSES to proceed, is really irrelevant. He needs to understand his entire situation before taking any steps IMO.

 

I gotta admit though I had a lot of trouble visualizing what Sawgrass was talking about and I still can't think of any bunker that was so close to a green that one couldn't find some sort of stance to hit the ball where he would be standing ON the green so I created this mock up (I think) demonstrating the issue.

 

 

 

 

I guess what I would try to do, since I'd be more than annoyed at taking a 2 stroke penalty to drop it out of the bunker, would be to turn the club over and take a backhand swipe towards the correct green. I guess I'd assume that I wouldn't hit it more than 5 or 10 feet in this case but for 1 stroke that would probably get me a reasonably "clean" bunker shot to the correct green. :dntknw:

[antip]

Now, let me get this straight.

 

Rule 13.1f says that you MUST take a relief from a Wrong Putting Green. If you do not, you get a penalty of 2 strokes.

 

Then there is a situation where the ball is in a bunker and there is no relief area for the player to drop his ball to get a free relief.

 

So, the player gets an automatic one stroke penalty for not being able to fulfill the demands of the Rule that says he MUST take a free relief from the condition.

 

Then comes a referee who says that this is fair. Keep smiling and take your medicine!

 

Are we all sharing the view that this is what the RB's have meant??

 

It is an unfortunate situation but the player is penalized for moving his ball when the rules don't allow for it. I'm sure you don't have anything against that principle.

 

The player does have other options available to him. Play in a direction with no interference from the green, take S&D or the two-shot drop out of the bunker. All of these actions are completely separate from moving your ball when you're not allowed to.

 

One easy way to avoid that extra penalty stroke is to ask for help from a referee before doing anything.

 

But I really should be sleeping and my brains aren't functioning very well anymore so I'll say good night for now.

My problem with it is your first sentence. In this situation you're correct... The rules don't "allow" the player to lift the ball, they in fact "demand" it. Perhaps it is obvious to our esteemed panel of referees but to the golfer that is quite conversant with the rules here goes by different steps. He knows the rule says he MUST move the ball if ball stance or swing are on wrong green. So his first step is to mark the spot, pick it up, and then look to drop in the proper spot. But alas, there is not one. Now what??? Penalize him for knowing he could not play from there? More harshly, according to some, than if he had played from there? I love playing my the rules but a player should not be penalized more harshly for playing by the rules than he is by hitting the ball into a penalty area. Further, if it is allowable to drop incorrectly, say from shoulder height, and correct it with no penalty by dropping from knee height this player should be allowed to correct his so called error of picking up a ball the rules tell him he cannot play and simply replace it.

 

Well Shilgy, while I get what you're saying, I think whether the player MUST or CHOOSES to proceed, is really irrelevant. He needs to understand his entire situation before taking any steps IMO.

 

I gotta admit though I had a lot of trouble visualizing what Sawgrass was talking about and I still can't think of any bunker that was so close to a green that one couldn't find some sort of stance to hit the ball where he would be standing ON the green so I created this mock up (I think) demonstrating the issue.

 

 

 

 

I guess what I would try to do, since I'd be more than annoyed at taking a 2 stroke penalty to drop it out of the gunker, would be to turn the club over and take a backhand swipe towards the correct green. I guess I'd assume that I wouldn't hit it more than 5 or 10 feet in this case but for 1 stroke that would probably get me a reasonably "clean" bunker shot to the correct green. :dntknw:

I'm late to this Sawgrass inspired sub-set of the 2019 Rules of Golf thread and would like to comment as follows:

1) To NSWguy, nice picture, but I can see a much simpler picture in my mind, and I don't have your digital facility, so I have to use words:

There is a fairway parallel to yours coming back the opposite way to your play on your left hand side. It has a long narrow green and a long narrow bunker on your side of that wrong green . You have sprayed your drive and come down in the back of the that bunker (back defined by your line of play). Your normal (right-handed) stance would put your feet on the wrong putting green and there is no relief point in the bunker not nearer the hole for the stroke you would have played. Yup, you are fxxxxx (er, facing problems).

2) Sawgrass is absolutely right. Despite the rule saying you must take free relief, there is no free relief available for your normal stance/shot, and if you were not alert to the issue before you picked up your ball well, you have just collected some excellent first hand rules knowledge that I'm sure you will never forget. Had you been alert to the risks, there were no penalty options available to you, eg, in my pen picture a little right-handed chip backwards to your line of play, but you blew it.

 

One final request to all: this Rules of Golf 2019 thread should be killed asap, it is 2019! All new scenarios/questions for discussion should be in specific new threads.

[Shilgy]

Now, let me get this straight.

 

Rule 13.1f says that you MUST take a relief from a Wrong Putting Green. If you do not, you get a penalty of 2 strokes.

 

Then there is a situation where the ball is in a bunker and there is no relief area for the player to drop his ball to get a free relief.

 

So, the player gets an automatic one stroke penalty for not being able to fulfill the demands of the Rule that says he MUST take a free relief from the condition.

 

Then comes a referee who says that this is fair. Keep smiling and take your medicine!

 

Are we all sharing the view that this is what the RB's have meant??

 

It is an unfortunate situation but the player is penalized for moving his ball when the rules don't allow for it. I'm sure you don't have anything against that principle.

 

The player does have other options available to him. Play in a direction with no interference from the green, take S&D or the two-shot drop out of the bunker. All of these actions are completely separate from moving your ball when you're not allowed to.

 

One easy way to avoid that extra penalty stroke is to ask for help from a referee before doing anything.

 

But I really should be sleeping and my brains aren't functioning very well anymore so I'll say good night for now.

My problem with it is your first sentence. In this situation you're correct... The rules don't "allow" the player to lift the ball, they in fact "demand" it. Perhaps it is obvious to our esteemed panel of referees but to the golfer that is quite conversant with the rules here goes by different steps. He knows the rule says he MUST move the ball if ball stance or swing are on wrong green. So his first step is to mark the spot, pick it up, and then look to drop in the proper spot. But alas, there is not one. Now what??? Penalize him for knowing he could not play from there? More harshly, according to some, than if he had played from there? I love playing my the rules but a player should not be penalized more harshly for playing by the rules than he is by hitting the ball into a penalty area. Further, if it is allowable to drop incorrectly, say from shoulder height, and correct it with no penalty by dropping from knee height this player should be allowed to correct his so called error of picking up a ball the rules tell him he cannot play and simply replace it.

 

Well Shilgy, while I get what you're saying, I think whether the player MUST or CHOOSES to proceed, is really irrelevant. He needs to understand his entire situation before taking any steps IMO.

 

I gotta admit though I had a lot of trouble visualizing what Sawgrass was talking about and I still can't think of any bunker that was so close to a green that one couldn't find some sort of stance to hit the ball where he would be standing ON the green so I created this mock up (I think) demonstrating the issue.

 

 

 

 

I guess what I would try to do, since I'd be more than annoyed at taking a 2 stroke penalty to drop it out of the bunker, would be to turn the club over and take a backhand swipe towards the correct green. I guess I'd assume that I wouldn't hit it more than 5 or 10 feet in this case but for 1 stroke that would probably get me a reasonably "clean" bunker shot to the correct green. :dntknw:

Again, your first sentence is to my point. Most of my semiliterate rules friends know that in the case of a cart path, for example, they have a choice of taking a free drop or not. And they weigh hitting of the path versus where there nearest point of relief would be and if they would have a swing from there.

In this case the player lines up his shot, sees that he is on a wrong green, looks it up in his rule book, and is told her must take relief. So he marks the spot and picks up his ball to take a drop. But alas, he finds there is nowhere that will satisfy the rules. Certainly any course that could have this situation occur should enact the local rule that abstains from forcing a player to take relief for stance on the wrong green but in this case that did not. So yes, I will double down on the idea he should be able to go back to the original position just like a drop can get a redo.

[Shilgy]

Question for my wiser friends. What other situation on the course could this happen? Something where the rules say you must move your ball or must do some act, no choice given, and then potentially give the player a "gotcha" when they start the process?

[antip]

Question for my wiser friends. What other situation on the course could this happen? Something where the rules say you must move your ball or must do some act, no choice given, and then potentially give the player a "gotcha" when they start the process?

Not claiming to be wiser....

but you'll hear the scream when one bites me.

[Sawgrass]

Question for my wiser friends. What other situation on the course could this happen? Something where the rules say you must move your ball or must do some act, no choice given, and then potentially give the player a "gotcha" when they start the process?

Not claiming to be wiser....

but you'll hear the scream when one bites me.

I suggest we be very careful when our ball is just outside a no play zone and the zone still interferes with our stance or area of intended swing.

[beary]

Does anyone have experience in interpretation of tee conformity rules? I have always tethered my tee, it is a great way not to lose them, and in doing so I always ensure I don't place the tether in a way that could indicate the line of play. This practice has always been legal in the past according to a guidance that was on the R&A website.

 

The 2019 Rules include Equipment rules which, for tees, state:

1. Tees (Rule 6.2)

A tee is a device designed to raise the ball off the ground. A tee must not:

• be longer than 4 inches (101.6 mm);

• be designed or manufactured in such a way that it could indicate line of play;

• unduly influence the movement of the ball; or

• otherwise assist the player in making a stroke or in his play.

Note: As an exception for difficult turf conditions, tees tethered together or to an anchor may be used during the round provided that the player does not align the tees or tether in such a way that could indicate line of play or otherwise assist the player in making a stroke.

 

Does this mean that tethering can only be used when turf conditions are difficult, or is this an exception that is made to cover difficult turf conditions but can apply generally (ie when conditions are not difficult)?

 

Would appreciate some comments from those who might understand the intent of wording such as this???

Thanks.

Bear

[Halebopp]

If there is a direction of play in such a situation that does not involve playing from a wrong green the player must take it or face appropriate penalty. That I have just learned, credit to Sawgrass (and a bit to Halebopp as well, so he will not get pissed...).

 

 

I'll save you from my wrath for now! :)

 

It was a useful discussion, the reason for different penalties should be firmly stored in our brains now.

[Halebopp]

My problem with it is your first sentence. In this situation you're correct... The rules don't "allow" the player to lift the ball, they in fact "demand" it. Perhaps it is obvious to our esteemed panel of referees but to the golfer that is quite conversant with the rules here goes by different steps. He knows the rule says he MUST move the ball if ball stance or swing are on wrong green. So his first step is to mark the spot, pick it up, and then look to drop in the proper spot. But alas, there is not one. Now what??? Penalize him for knowing he could not play from there? More harshly, according to some, than if he had played from there? I love playing my the rules but a player should not be penalized more harshly for playing by the rules than he is by hitting the ball into a penalty area. Further, if it is allowable to drop incorrectly, say from shoulder height, and correct it with no penalty by dropping from knee height this player should be allowed to correct his so called error of picking up a ball the rules tell him he cannot play and simply replace it.

 

As a rules official, it's one of those "oh no" moments when you arrive at the scene and the player in trouble already has the ball in his hand. The problem with your example player is the fact he's doing things in the wrong order. If you're in trouble, picking up the ball is absolutely the last thing you should do (excluding ball moving in water). Figure out what you want to do, make sure you're allowed to do so and only after that should one touch the ball.

 

That player should also be aware he is not obliged to play the ball as it lies or towards the hole. The rules aren't telling the player he cannot play the ball as it lies. The rules are only telling him his stance can't be on the wrong putting green and he must free relief from it if the planned stroke, stance and direction of play are reasonable. But in this case that option just isn't available to him.

[Halebopp]

Note: As an exception for difficult turf conditions, tees tethered together or to an anchor may be used during the round provided that the player does not align the tees or tether in such a way that could indicate line of play or otherwise assist the player in making a stroke.

 

Does this mean that tethering can only be used when turf conditions are difficult, or is this an exception that is made to cover difficult turf conditions but can apply generally (ie when conditions are not difficult)?

 

Would appreciate some comments from those who might understand the intent of wording such as this???

Thanks.

Bear

 

Considering the specific and thought-out use of words and sentences in the rules, I would say it means exactly that. They could have started the sentence from "Tees tethered..." but they didn't.

[ruca]

Don't you guys ever check what you are quoting before posting..?

 

I mean, quoting text quoted three times :swoon:

 

That is just TOO much...

Apologies can't always tell on an android phone what's happening

 

[Mr. Bean]

Don't you guys ever check what you are quoting before posting..?

 

I mean, quoting text quoted three times :swoon:

 

That is just TOO much...

Apologies can't always tell on an android phone what's happening

 

Android phones are devil's tools...

[Shilgy]

My problem with it is your first sentence. In this situation you're correct... The rules don't "allow" the player to lift the ball, they in fact "demand" it. Perhaps it is obvious to our esteemed panel of referees but to the golfer that is quite conversant with the rules here goes by different steps. He knows the rule says he MUST move the ball if ball stance or swing are on wrong green. So his first step is to mark the spot, pick it up, and then look to drop in the proper spot. But alas, there is not one. Now what??? Penalize him for knowing he could not play from there? More harshly, according to some, than if he had played from there? I love playing my the rules but a player should not be penalized more harshly for playing by the rules than he is by hitting the ball into a penalty area. Further, if it is allowable to drop incorrectly, say from shoulder height, and correct it with no penalty by dropping from knee height this player should be allowed to correct his so called error of picking up a ball the rules tell him he cannot play and simply replace it.

 

As a rules official, it's one of those "oh no" moments when you arrive at the scene and the player in trouble already has the ball in his hand. The problem with your example player is the fact he's doing things in the wrong order. If you're in trouble, picking up the ball is absolutely the last thing you should do (excluding ball moving in water). Figure out what you want to do, make sure you're allowed to do so and only after that should one touch the ball.

 

That player should also be aware he is not obliged to play the ball as it lies or towards the hole. The rules aren't telling the player he cannot play the ball as it lies. The rules are only telling him his stance can't be on the wrong putting green and he must free relief from it if the planned stroke, stance and direction of play are reasonable. But in this case that option just isn't available to him.

So the player has to take what would be considered an unreasonable direction instead?

 

In this situation where the player has picked up the ball but then has nowhere to drop it by rule why not:

 

Rule 9.4b

Exception 1-Player Allowed to lift or move ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a rule that:

(bullet point 3) Requires or allows the player to drop or place a ball again or to play a ball from a different place.

 

It does not state the player is penalized if he replaces the ball having found no options. In this case the player was following directions by picking up the ball as his stance was on the wrong green and he must move the ball. Nowhere in 13.1f does it state as an option is to take what would normally be an unreasonable shot. If you take your intended reasonable line of play and your stance is on the wrong green you must take relief.

[rogolf]

My problem with it is your first sentence. In this situation you're correct... The rules don't "allow" the player to lift the ball, they in fact "demand" it. Perhaps it is obvious to our esteemed panel of referees but to the golfer that is quite conversant with the rules here goes by different steps. He knows the rule says he MUST move the ball if ball stance or swing are on wrong green. So his first step is to mark the spot, pick it up, and then look to drop in the proper spot. But alas, there is not one. Now what??? Penalize him for knowing he could not play from there? More harshly, according to some, than if he had played from there? I love playing my the rules but a player should not be penalized more harshly for playing by the rules than he is by hitting the ball into a penalty area. Further, if it is allowable to drop incorrectly, say from shoulder height, and correct it with no penalty by dropping from knee height this player should be allowed to correct his so called error of picking up a ball the rules tell him he cannot play and simply replace it.

 

As a rules official, it's one of those "oh no" moments when you arrive at the scene and the player in trouble already has the ball in his hand. The problem with your example player is the fact he's doing things in the wrong order. If you're in trouble, picking up the ball is absolutely the last thing you should do (excluding ball moving in water). Figure out what you want to do, make sure you're allowed to do so and only after that should one touch the ball.

 

That player should also be aware he is not obliged to play the ball as it lies or towards the hole. The rules aren't telling the player he cannot play the ball as it lies. The rules are only telling him his stance can't be on the wrong putting green and he must free relief from it if the planned stroke, stance and direction of play are reasonable. But in this case that option just isn't available to him.

So the player has to take what would be considered an unreasonable direction instead?

 

In this situation where the player has picked up the ball but then has nowhere to drop it by rule why not:

 

Rule 9.4b

Exception 1-Player Allowed to lift or move ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a rule that:

(bullet point 3) Requires or allows the player to drop or place a ball again or to play a ball from a different place.

 

It does not state the player is penalized if he replaces the ball having found no options. In this case the player was following directions by picking up the ball as his stance was on the wrong green and he must move the ball. Nowhere in 13.1f does it state as an option is to take what would normally be an unreasonable shot. If you take your intended reasonable line of play and your stance is on the wrong green you must take relief.

Read Interpretation 9.4b/6 I think the player gets a one stroke penalty when he or she replaces the ball at its original spot. Moral of the (old) story - don't pick up your ball in play before examining your relief options.

[Sawgrass]

So the player has to take what would be considered an unreasonable direction instead?

 

 

 

To avoid penalty, there are many fundamental occasions in the whole of the game when you have to play in an "unreasonable" direction given where your ball lies. If I am in the rough with a wide rain shelter between me and the hole, and the shelter is just far enough away from my ball that I won't hit the shelter with my follow through if I were aiming directly at the hole, I have to play in an otherwise unreasonable direction. A few inches closer and I'd get some relief, maybe enough to play straight for the hole.

 

So the game hasn't changed in this respect. I'm not suggesting that this situation we're discussing isn't punitive, but I think the real heart of the problem is lifting the ball too early. If I hit a wayward ball near a wrong green and it was a big tree that was in my way, no one would have any sympathy for me --"Just play to the side, dude." If it hit a wayward ball near a wrong green and my preferred stance is on that green, why would I be due sympathy for having to alter my shot?

[Shilgy]

My problem with it is your first sentence. In this situation you're correct... The rules don't "allow" the player to lift the ball, they in fact "demand" it. Perhaps it is obvious to our esteemed panel of referees but to the golfer that is quite conversant with the rules here goes by different steps. He knows the rule says he MUST move the ball if ball stance or swing are on wrong green. So his first step is to mark the spot, pick it up, and then look to drop in the proper spot. But alas, there is not one. Now what??? Penalize him for knowing he could not play from there? More harshly, according to some, than if he had played from there? I love playing my the rules but a player should not be penalized more harshly for playing by the rules than he is by hitting the ball into a penalty area. Further, if it is allowable to drop incorrectly, say from shoulder height, and correct it with no penalty by dropping from knee height this player should be allowed to correct his so called error of picking up a ball the rules tell him he cannot play and simply replace it.

 

As a rules official, it's one of those "oh no" moments when you arrive at the scene and the player in trouble already has the ball in his hand. The problem with your example player is the fact he's doing things in the wrong order. If you're in trouble, picking up the ball is absolutely the last thing you should do (excluding ball moving in water). Figure out what you want to do, make sure you're allowed to do so and only after that should one touch the ball.

 

That player should also be aware he is not obliged to play the ball as it lies or towards the hole. The rules aren't telling the player he cannot play the ball as it lies. The rules are only telling him his stance can't be on the wrong putting green and he must free relief from it if the planned stroke, stance and direction of play are reasonable. But in this case that option just isn't available to him.

So the player has to take what would be considered an unreasonable direction instead?

 

In this situation where the player has picked up the ball but then has nowhere to drop it by rule why not:

 

Rule 9.4b

Exception 1-Player Allowed to lift or move ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a rule that:

(bullet point 3) Requires or allows the player to drop or place a ball again or to play a ball from a different place.

 

It does not state the player is penalized if he replaces the ball having found no options. In this case the player was following directions by picking up the ball as his stance was on the wrong green and he must move the ball. Nowhere in 13.1f does it state as an option is to take what would normally be an unreasonable shot. If you take your intended reasonable line of play and your stance is on the wrong green you must take relief.

Read Interpretation 9.4b/6 I think the player gets a one stroke penalty when he or she replaces the ball at its original spot. Moral of the (old) story - don't pick up your ball in play before examining your relief options.

9.4b/6 Refers to free reliefthat a player May take under a specific rule 16.1b(abnormal course conditions) . And then there are various options and penalties including take the drop with no penalty in the spot the player deemed unsatisfactory. Which contradicts this issue which we are discussing. There is nowhere to drop by rule.

 

My last point on this for what it is worth. The Rules of Golf have always been very specific with the words Must and May. A player May lift from a cart path but he know by the word May that he might not wish to and it is wise to not pick up the ball until he decides. In this case ow the wrong putting green he Must take relief by Rule absent the LR not including stance. Why would it even occur to player to not pick up the ball after being told Must and knowing that an unreasonable line of play is not usually an option?

 

Edited to add: the recent posts in this thread certainly have taught me to not pick up my ball even when the rules tell me I must do so under a reasonable line of play. And I will instruct playing partners to step carefully in the same vein. I do believe that if the rules makers gave an out to redrop if done incorrectly they intend an out for a replace in a Must condition as I stated from the exception.

[Sawgrass]

Why would it even occur to player to not pick up the ball after being told Must and knowing that an unreasonable line of play is not usually an option?

Because the player wisely read this thread.

 

I find this phrase from the 12/18/18 Clarification of 16.3b of interest: "the player is not allowed to take free relief . . ." In that clarification describing embedded ball relief, when no relief area exists, we are informed that we can't take free relief. If we can't take free relief, we can't legally lift our ball with that free relief in mind.

[Newby]

18.1/2 more clearly shows 9.4b/6 is not applicable, and further analysis suggests this is because, in 9.4b/6, the player actually had a choice to take the unwanted relief.

 

"If a player lifts his or her ball when not allowed to do so".

I'm not entirely convinced that means the he cannot then take S&D. The rule does not forbid his lifting the ball although there may not be any relief area available.

 

18.1

The player always has this stroke-and-distance relief option:

• No matter where the player’s ball is on the course, and
  
• Even when a Rule requires the player to take relief in a certain way or to play a ball from a certain place.
  

Would this not be an unannounced change to the principle in 28/13?

[Sawgrass]

18.1/2 more clearly shows 9.4b/6 is not applicable, and further analysis suggests this is because, in 9.4b/6, the player actually had a choice to take the unwanted relief.

 

"If a player lifts his or her ball when not allowed to do so".

I'm not entirely convinced that means the he cannot then take S&D. The rule does not forbid his lifting the ball although there may not be any relief area available.

 

18.1

The player always has this stroke-and-distance relief option:

• No matter where the player’s ball is on the course, and
  
• Even when a Rule requires the player to take relief in a certain way or to play a ball from a certain place.
  

Would this not be an unannounced change to the principle in 28/13?

 

Fancy New Year's type?

 

New Interpretation 19.2/4 is virtually identical to old Decision 28/13. So no change there. I still think 18.1/2 trumps all other arguments in this regard.

[Shilgy]

Why would it even occur to player to not pick up the ball after being told Must and knowing that an unreasonable line of play is not usually an option?

Because the player wisely read this thread.

 

I find this phrase from the 12/18/18 Clarification of 16.3b of interest: "the player is not allowed to take free relief . . ." In that clarification describing embedded ball relief, when no relief area exists, we are informed that we can't take free relief. If we can't take free relief, we can't legally lift our ball with that free relief in mind.

Interesting that the drop area for an embedded ball starts behind the embedded ball rather than includes the old spot. Because of that I can picture instances where no relief is available whereas if you could drop right next to the old spot-certainly would be no nearer the hole still- the lack of relief area is harder to imagine. Where is this clarification listed? You would think the USGA would embrace technology and update their 2019 Rules of Golf app if they make changes/clarifications.

[Colin L]

There is a difference between Int, 18.1/2 which concerns lifting a ball without the authority of a rule and this situation where the player does have that authority and is not liable for any penalty for having lifted it. !8.1/2 is not, in my opinion, applicable.

[Halebopp]

Edited to add: the recent posts in this thread certainly have taught me to not pick up my ball even when the rules tell me I must do so under a reasonable line of play. And I will instruct playing partners to step carefully in the same vein.

 

If only every player understood this bit, I'll make sure it gets extra attention the next time I talk about the rules at my club. :)

[SNIPERBBB]

I always thought it was a given to never lift a ball before you knew what you'd be able to do with it afterwards. And sometimes you're better off playing the ball as it lies, assuming you're not in a spot where play is prohibited.

[Colin L]

Continuing my post above which I submitted prematurely.

 

The player's problem is that having picked up his ball to take relief from the wrong putting green the player cannot establish a relief area. As I see it, this is way of it`:

 

He can replace his ball and play it as it lies but with his feet clear of the wrong green - 1 penalty stroke for lifting it.

He might ealise to his dismay that the same problem of there being nowhere not nearer the hole means he cannot take penalty relief in the bunker for an unplayable ball.

He can take unplayable relief back on the line outside the bunker - 3 penalty strokes (1 stroke for lifting his ball because he is now not proceeding with the relief which authorised his lifting it in the first instance plus 2 for the unplayable ball relief).

He can go back and play under stroke and distance - 1 penalty stroke.

 

As I said earlier, you do not get out of a bunker free.

[Sawgrass]

I always thought it was a given to never lift a ball before you knew what you'd be able to do with it afterwards. And sometimes you're better off playing the ball as it lies, assuming you're not in a spot where play is prohibited.

That’s the rub here, play isn’t prohibited next to a wrong green, though it is generally prohibited to stand on the wrong green while making a stroke. Same can be true with no play zones.