2019 Rules of Golf

Mr. Bean · January 2, 2019

13.1f says the relief area has to be in the same area as the reference point.

Yea yea yea...

We had this discussion earlier in the Yellow PA thread. There it was clearly agreed that ALL of the relief area does NOT have to be in the same area as the reference point.

This is one of those things the RB's should have been more careful. Either the entire RA MUST be in the same area of the course than the reference point or NOT. But as we have learned from the Interpretations the latter option is the one.
Yes yes yes, the penalty area relief rule is different than wrong green. Penalty area relief explicitly states the relief area can include various areas of the course... The ball must be played from the area it first touches when dropped.
The wrong green relief specifically states the relief area must be in the same area as the reference point. That is different than the other rule.
I'm with you, Shilgy. 13.1f says that the reference point must be in the same area of the course where the original ball came to rest, and that the relief area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point. (That's 13.1f (2))

So, Sawgrass, would you as a referee deny a free relief from a player in such a situation..? And how would you feel about it? Would that call be fair..?

I wonder what Thomas Pagel would say...

Shilgy · January 2, 2019

13.1f says the relief area has to be in the same area as the reference point.

Yea yea yea...

We had this discussion earlier in the Yellow PA thread. There it was clearly agreed that ALL of the relief area does NOT have to be in the same area as the reference point.

This is one of those things the RB's should have been more careful. Either the entire RA MUST be in the same area of the course than the reference point or NOT. But as we have learned from the Interpretations the latter option is the one.
Yes yes yes, the penalty area relief rule is different than wrong green. Penalty area relief explicitly states the relief area can include various areas of the course... The ball must be played from the area it first touches when dropped.
The wrong green relief specifically states the relief area must be in the same area as the reference point. That is different than the other rule.
I'm with you, Shilgy. 13.1f says that the reference point must be in the same area of the course where the original ball came to rest, and that the relief area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point. (That's 13.1f (2))

And Rule 17.1d(2) says 'May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area'.

As we have concluded this is not entirely true as part of the RA may be in the same penalty area. Limitation on location of relief area... May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area. Thus following the same logic all of the relief area in R13.1f does not have to be on the same area of the course etc...' Wrong because 13.1 specifically states it needs to be in same area while 17.1 says it can include any area other than penalty area

I am taking this up in order to show that these discrepancies plowed by the RB's are not helping us in interpreting the Rules. Also I do not believe it has been the meaning that without a certain LR in force you cannot get a free relief from a condition you are obliged to take according to the Rules.

Sawgrass · January 2, 2019

13.1f says the relief area has to be in the same area as the reference point.

Yea yea yea...

We had this discussion earlier in the Yellow PA thread. There it was clearly agreed that ALL of the relief area does NOT have to be in the same area as the reference point.

This is one of those things the RB's should have been more careful. Either the entire RA MUST be in the same area of the course than the reference point or NOT. But as we have learned from the Interpretations the latter option is the one.
Yes yes yes, the penalty area relief rule is different than wrong green. Penalty area relief explicitly states the relief area can include various areas of the course... The ball must be played from the area it first touches when dropped.
The wrong green relief specifically states the relief area must be in the same area as the reference point. That is different than the other rule.
I'm with you, Shilgy. 13.1f says that the reference point must be in the same area of the course where the original ball came to rest, and that the relief area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point. (That's 13.1f (2))

And Rule 17.1d(2) says 'May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area'.

As we have concluded this is not entirely true as part of the RA may be in the same penalty area. Thus following the same logic all of the relief area in R13.1f does not have to be on the same area of the course etc...'

I am taking this up in order to show that these discrepancies plowed by the RB's are not helping us in interpreting the Rules. Also I do not believe it has been the meaning that without a certain LR in force you cannot get a free relief from a condition you are obliged to take according to the Rules.

I don’t think you’re getting the fact that with R 17, part of the relief area can be outside the penalty area (legal to play from) and part of the relief area clublength can be inside the penalty area (illegal to play from). In my example for a bunker/ wrong green, there is no legal relief area. (Just as in the clarification they issued about an embedded ball at the edge of a bunker.)

As to their true intention regarding this wrong green awkwardness, I don’t know, but I have asked the USGA directly.

Mr. Bean · January 2, 2019

As we have concluded this is not entirely true as part of the RA may be in the same penalty area. Limitation on location of relief area... May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area. Thus following the same logic all of the relief area in R13.1f does not have to be on the same area of the course etc...' Wrong because 13.1 specifically states it needs to be in same area while 17.1 says it can include any area other than penalty area

So you would be fine with the situation at hand? That the player would have to take an unplayable ball?

Mr. Bean · January 2, 2019

I don't think you're getting the fact that with R 17, part of the relief area can be outside the penalty area (legal to play from) and part of the relief area clublength can be inside the penalty area (illegal to play from). In my example for a bunker/ wrong green, there is no legal relief area. (Just as in the clarification they issued about an embedded ball at the edge of a bunker.)

As to their true intention regarding this wrong green awkwardness, I don't know, but I have asked the USGA directly.

Yeah, this is one of those things they have not properly thought through.

Sawgrass · January 2, 2019

13.1f says the relief area has to be in the same area as the reference point.

Yea yea yea...

We had this discussion earlier in the Yellow PA thread. There it was clearly agreed that ALL of the relief area does NOT have to be in the same area as the reference point.

This is one of those things the RB's should have been more careful. Either the entire RA MUST be in the same area of the course than the reference point or NOT. But as we have learned from the Interpretations the latter option is the one.
Yes yes yes, the penalty area relief rule is different than wrong green. Penalty area relief explicitly states the relief area can include various areas of the course... The ball must be played from the area it first touches when dropped.
The wrong green relief specifically states the relief area must be in the same area as the reference point. That is different than the other rule.
I'm with you, Shilgy. 13.1f says that the reference point must be in the same area of the course where the original ball came to rest, and that the relief area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point. (That's 13.1f (2))

So, Sawgrass, would you as a referee deny a free relief from a player in such a situation..? And how would you feel about it? Would that call be fair..?

I wonder what Thomas Pagel would say...

I don't feel great about the clarification of 16.3b, nor about this wrong green interference issue. But in both cases I'd penalize the player if he picked up trying to apply a rule which didn't apply. But I'd feel bad about it from the player's perspective. But the truth is, you really shouldn't touch your ball unless you have the right to do so. And the "right" includes having a viable drop place for a rule that requires a drop.

What would you do?

Shilgy · January 2, 2019

I don't feel great about the clarification of 16.3b, nor about this wrong green interference issue. But in both cases I'd penalize the player if he picked up trying to apply a rule which didn't apply. But I'd feel bad about it from the player's perspective. But the truth is, you really shouldn't touch your ball unless you have the right to do so. And the "right" includes having a viable drop place for a rule that requires a drop.

What would you do?

You fellas are the rules gurus-not me. So Mr Beans question to me of "what would you do" is likely to get an incorrect answer. In the case Sawgrass just mentioned I would ask how you penalize a player for picking up a ball he must not play. He knows from the rules he must not play if ball or stance or swing are on a wrong green. There is not a must have an area to drop issue before picking up because he must pick up. So where to drop? Is there any sort of equity solution? Or could he be forced to hit out sideways or backwards to avoid the stance on the wrong green? It seems wrong based on other rules to force the players hand in that way.

Halebopp · January 2, 2019

I don't feel great about the clarification of 16.3b, nor about this wrong green interference issue. But in both cases I'd penalize the player if he picked up trying to apply a rule which didn't apply. But I'd feel bad about it from the player's perspective. But the truth is, you really shouldn't touch your ball unless you have the right to do so. And the "right" includes having a viable drop place for a rule that requires a drop.

What would you do?
You fellas are the rules gurus-not me. So Mr Beans question to me of "what would you do" is likely to get an incorrect answer. In the case Sawgrass just mentioned I would ask how you penalize a player for picking up a ball he must not play. He knows from the rules he must not play if ball or stance or swing are on a wrong green. There is not a must have an area to drop issue before picking up because he must pick up. So where to drop? Is there any sort of equity solution? Or could he be forced to hit out sideways or backwards to avoid the stance on the wrong green? It seems wrong based on other rules to force the players hand in that way.

Replace the ball with a one-stroke penalty and play a shot in which there is no interference from the wrong green, take the two-shot back-on-line drop outside of the bunker, total of 3 ps or proceed with stroke and distance for 2 ps.

Essentially the blame would fall on the committee for not taking such a situation into consideration and ultimately tying the unlucky (albeit somewhat wayward) player's hands. Of course, if the wrong green is way off line, some might think the player is to blame for the mess for hitting so far off line and it is a valid point.

Mr. Bean · January 2, 2019

I don't feel great about the clarification of 16.3b, nor about this wrong green interference issue. But in both cases I'd penalize the player if he picked up trying to apply a rule which didn't apply. But I'd feel bad about it from the player's perspective. But the truth is, you really shouldn't touch your ball unless you have the right to do so. And the "right" includes having a viable drop place for a rule that requires a drop.

What would you do?

To be honest, I would rule it as I would feel fair. That would be a free relief to the nearest point of complete relief from the wrong green and that's it.

Or I would let him play the ball as it lies.

Both options free of charge, so to say, as that is the only option I can think of.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I would let him play the ball as it lies. That way he would be responsible for his wayward shot but not for poorly written Rules. Yes, that would be my ruling.

Mr. Bean · January 2, 2019

Replace the ball with a one-stroke penalty and play a shot in which there is no interference from the wrong green, take the two-shot back-on-line drop outside of the bunker, total of 3 ps or proceed with stroke and distance for 2 ps.

Why 2 PS for the bolded?

Sawgrass · January 2, 2019

I don't feel great about the clarification of 16.3b, nor about this wrong green interference issue. But in both cases I'd penalize the player if he picked up trying to apply a rule which didn't apply. But I'd feel bad about it from the player's perspective. But the truth is, you really shouldn't touch your ball unless you have the right to do so. And the "right" includes having a viable drop place for a rule that requires a drop.

What would you do?

To be honest, I would rule it as I would feel fair. That would be a free relief to the nearest point of complete relief from the wrong green and that's it.

Or I would let him play the ball as it lies.

Both options free of charge, so to say, as that is the only option I can think of.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I would let him play the ball as it lies. That way he would be responsible for his wayward shot but not for poorly written Rules. Yes, that would be my ruling.

If rules officials start making up their own rules, we’re in deep trouble. I hope you're not sincere with this.

Replace the ball with a one-stroke penalty and play a shot in which there is no interference from the wrong green, take the two-shot back-on-line drop outside of the bunker, total of 3 ps or proceed with stroke and distance for 2 ps.

Why 2 PS for the bolded?

Cause that’s the rule!

Mr. Bean · January 2, 2019

Replace the ball with a one-stroke penalty and play a shot in which there is no interference from the wrong green, take the two-shot back-on-line drop outside of the bunker, total of 3 ps or proceed with stroke and distance for 2 ps.

Why 2 PS for the bolded?
Cause that’s the rule!

Are you sure..?

See Int 9.4b/6, last bullet.

Mr. Bean · January 2, 2019

If rules officials start making up their own rules, we’re in deep trouble. I hope you're not sincere with this.

I am serious with that as I sincerely believe that Rule is incorrect as it is not fair.

Fortunately, there is still time before our season starts so we have time to get things straight. And do we have a LOT of things to get straight with...!!

Halebopp · January 2, 2019

I don't feel great about the clarification of 16.3b, nor about this wrong green interference issue. But in both cases I'd penalize the player if he picked up trying to apply a rule which didn't apply. But I'd feel bad about it from the player's perspective. But the truth is, you really shouldn't touch your ball unless you have the right to do so. And the "right" includes having a viable drop place for a rule that requires a drop.

What would you do?

To be honest, I would rule it as I would feel fair. That would be a free relief to the nearest point of complete relief from the wrong green and that's it.

Or I would let him play the ball as it lies.

Both options free of charge, so to say, as that is the only option I can think of.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I would let him play the ball as it lies. That way he would be responsible for his wayward shot but not for poorly written Rules. Yes, that would be my ruling.
If rules officials start making up their own rules, we’re in deep trouble. I hope you're not sincere with this.
Replace the ball with a one-stroke penalty and play a shot in which there is no interference from the wrong green, take the two-shot back-on-line drop outside of the bunker, total of 3 ps or proceed with stroke and distance for 2 ps.

Why 2 PS for the bolded?
Cause that’s the rule!

I'm on my phone and can't see which part of the text is bolded so I'll risk it and trust Sawgrass' answer. :)

Interpretation 18.1/2 tells us you can't avoid penalties by playing under stroke and distance.

Sawgrass · January 2, 2019

To be honest, I would rule it as I would feel fair. That would be a free relief to the nearest point of complete relief from the wrong green and that's it.

Or I would let him play the ball as it lies.

Both options free of charge, so to say, as that is the only option I can think of.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I would let him play the ball as it lies. That way he would be responsible for his wayward shot but not for poorly written Rules. Yes, that would be my ruling.
If rules officials start making up their own rules, we’re in deep trouble. I hope you're not sincere with this.
Replace the ball with a one-stroke penalty and play a shot in which there is no interference from the wrong green, take the two-shot back-on-line drop outside of the bunker, total of 3 ps or proceed with stroke and distance for 2 ps.

Why 2 PS for the bolded?
Cause that’s the rule!
I'm on my phone and can't see which part of the text is bolded so I'll risk it and trust Sawgrass' answer. :)

Interpretation 18.1/2 tells us you can't avoid penalties by playing under stroke and distance.

That’s the applicable rule!

Mr. Bean · January 2, 2019

Both of you, read this:

'

Directly take stroke-and-distance relief, without dropping the ball under Rule 16.1b, getting a penalty of one stroke under Rule 19.2a and no penalty under Rule 9.4b, as the player does not need to establish a new reference point before taking relief under Rule 19.2a.'

Last bullet of Int 9.4b/6.

Halebopp · January 2, 2019

Replace the ball with a one-stroke penalty and play a shot in which there is no interference from the wrong green, take the two-shot back-on-line drop outside of the bunker, total of 3 ps or proceed with stroke and distance for 2 ps.

Why 2 PS for the bolded?
Cause that’s the rule!

Are you sure..?

See Int 9.4b/6, last bullet.

In that case the player didn't want to proceed the way he thought he would when he lifted the ball even though he could have. In this case he wasn't allowed to do what he wanted to do due to there being no relief area. Thus the difference in penalty strokes.

Shilgy · January 2, 2019

Both of you, read this:

'
Directly take stroke-and-distance relief, without dropping the ball under Rule 16.1b, getting a penalty of one stroke under Rule 19.2a and no penalty under Rule 9.4b, as the player does not need to establish a new reference point before taking relief under Rule 19.2a.'
Last bullet of Int 9.4b/6.

This case is not lifting under free relief for abnormal course conditions. But I will agree with you the logic should be the same. If lifting for free relief and deciding you do not like the options to take stroke and distance should be the same penalty.

Shilgy · January 2, 2019

Replace the ball with a one-stroke penalty and play a shot in which there is no interference from the wrong green, take the two-shot back-on-line drop outside of the bunker, total of 3 ps or proceed with stroke and distance for 2 ps.

Why 2 PS for the bolded?
Cause that’s the rule!

Are you sure..?

See Int 9.4b/6, last bullet.
In that case the player didn't want to proceed the way he thought he would when he lifted the ball even though he could have. In this case he wasn't allowed to do what he wanted to do due to there being no relief area. Thus the difference in penalty strokes.

:) So you want to penalize the player more harshly for picking up a ball he could not play by rule than the player who had a choice? By rule the player on the wrong green must take relief.

Mr. Bean · January 2, 2019

Now, let me get this straight.

Rule 13.1f says that you MUST take a relief from a Wrong Putting Green. If you do not, you get a penalty of 2 strokes.

Then there is a situation where the ball is in a bunker and there is no relief area for the player to drop his ball to get a free relief.

So, the player gets an automatic one stroke penalty for not being able to fulfill the demands of the Rule that says he MUST take a free relief from the condition.

Then comes a referee who says that this is fair. Keep smiling and take your medicine!

Are we all sharing the view that this is what the RB's have meant??

Sawgrass · January 2, 2019

Replace the ball with a one-stroke penalty and play a shot in which there is no interference from the wrong green, take the two-shot back-on-line drop outside of the bunker, total of 3 ps or proceed with stroke and distance for 2 ps.

Why 2 PS for the bolded?
Cause that’s the rule!

Are you sure..?

See Int 9.4b/6, last bullet.

That Interpretation covers choosing not to take free relief, not when free relief is not in fact available.

Shilgy · January 2, 2019

Now, let me get this straight.

Rule 13.1f says that you MUST take a relief from a Wrong Putting Green. If you do not, you get a penalty of 2 strokes.

Then there is a situation where the ball is in a bunker and there is no relief area for the player to drop his ball to get a free relief.

So, the player gets an automatic one stroke penalty for not being able to fulfill the demands of the Rule that says he MUST take a free relief from the condition.

Then comes a referee who says that this is fair. Keep smiling and take your medicine!

Are we all sharing the view that this is what the RB's have meant??

I would need to hand an official by bag and quit golf if I received the ruling as others have suggested. You must take the free drop for a wrong green situation but there is a penalty to drop because the drop by the rule is not available.

Sawgrass · January 2, 2019

Now, let me get this straight.

Rule 13.1f says that you MUST take a relief from a Wrong Putting Green. If you do not, you get a penalty of 2 strokes.

Then there is a situation where the ball is in a bunker and there is no relief area for the player to drop his ball to get a free relief.

So, the player gets an automatic one stroke penalty for not being able to fulfill the demands of the Rule that says he MUST take a free relief from the condition.

Then comes a referee who says that this is fair. Keep smiling and take your medicine!

Are we all sharing the view that this is what the RB's have meant??

If the player made sure he was going to be able to get free relief before he picked up, he’d have been able to avoid the interference by moving his stance and play on. It’s similar to the situation in 2018 when a player picks up his ball from an IO and then discovers that there’s no place to drop.

In both cases it’s harsh, but that’s the rule. I didn’t say I like it, in fact I started this whole thing out by saying it’s peculiar. And I asked the USGA if this is truly what they intended. Don’t blame me!

Sawgrass · January 2, 2019

Now, let me get this straight.

Rule 13.1f says that you MUST take a relief from a Wrong Putting Green. If you do not, you get a penalty of 2 strokes.

Then there is a situation where the ball is in a bunker and there is no relief area for the player to drop his ball to get a free relief.

So, the player gets an automatic one stroke penalty for not being able to fulfill the demands of the Rule that says he MUST take a free relief from the condition.

Then comes a referee who says that this is fair. Keep smiling and take your medicine!

Are we all sharing the view that this is what the RB's have meant??
I would need to hand an official by bag and quit golf if I received the ruling as others have suggested. You must take the free drop for a wrong green situation but there is a penalty to drop because the drop by the rule is not available.

The moral of the story: stay away from wrong greens! That’s why they call them “wrong.”

Mr. Bean · January 2, 2019

Now, let me get this straight.

Rule 13.1f says that you MUST take a relief from a Wrong Putting Green. If you do not, you get a penalty of 2 strokes.

Then there is a situation where the ball is in a bunker and there is no relief area for the player to drop his ball to get a free relief.

So, the player gets an automatic one stroke penalty for not being able to fulfill the demands of the Rule that says he MUST take a free relief from the condition.

Then comes a referee who says that this is fair. Keep smiling and take your medicine!

Are we all sharing the view that this is what the RB's have meant??
If the player made sure he was going to be able to get free relief before he picked up, he’d have been able to avoid the interference by moving his stance and play on. It’s similar to the situation in 2018 when a player picks up his ball from an IO and then discovers that there’s no place to drop.

In both cases it’s harsh, but that’s the rule. I didn’t say I like it, in fact I started this whole thing out by saying it’s peculiar. And I asked the USGA if this is truly what they intended. Don’t blame me!

Now I begin to see the light and I thank You for that, Sawgrass!

If there is a direction of play in such a situation that does not involve playing from a wrong green the player must take it or face appropriate penalty. That I have just learned, credit to Sawgrass (and a bit to Halebopp as well, so he will not get pissed...).

HOWEVER, there may just be a situation where that would not be possible, and for those situations (and more or less all the others...) I would lke to see some common sense in that Rule.

Good and useful discussion!

P.S. For those who might wonder my comment about Halebopp.... him and me know each other, so no problem :)

Halebopp · January 2, 2019

Now, let me get this straight.

Rule 13.1f says that you MUST take a relief from a Wrong Putting Green. If you do not, you get a penalty of 2 strokes.

Then there is a situation where the ball is in a bunker and there is no relief area for the player to drop his ball to get a free relief.

So, the player gets an automatic one stroke penalty for not being able to fulfill the demands of the Rule that says he MUST take a free relief from the condition.

Then comes a referee who says that this is fair. Keep smiling and take your medicine!

Are we all sharing the view that this is what the RB's have meant??

It is an unfortunate situation but the player is penalized for moving his ball when the rules don't allow for it. I'm sure you don't have anything against that principle.

The player does have other options available to him. Play in a direction with no interference from the green, take S&D or the two-shot drop out of the bunker. All of these actions are completely separate from moving your ball when you're not allowed to.

One easy way to avoid that extra penalty stroke is to ask for help from a referee before doing anything.

But I really should be sleeping and my brains aren't functioning very well anymore so I'll say good night for now.

Newby · January 2, 2019

I'm having trouble following the latter parts of this thread as I haven't seen it develop. But I get the impression that a player picked his ball up when he didn't have a legitimate reference point or reference area.

Doesn't I 9.4b/6 bullet 5 give him an out with only 1sp ?

Sawgrass · January 2, 2019

I'm having trouble following the latter parts of this thread as I haven't seen it develop. But I get the impression that a player picked his ball up when he didn't have a legitimate reference point or reference area.

Doesn't I 9.4b/6 bullet 5 give him an out with only 1sp ?

18.1/2 more clearly shows 9.4b/6 is not applicable, and further analysis suggests this is because, in 9.4b/6, the player actually had a choice to take the unwanted relief.

Colin L · January 2, 2019

I don't feel great about the clarification of 16.3b, nor about this wrong green interference issue. But in both cases I'd penalize the player if he picked up trying to apply a rule which didn't apply. But I'd feel bad about it from the player's perspective. But the truth is, you really shouldn't touch your ball unless you have the right to do so. And the "right" includes having a viable drop place for a rule that requires a drop.

What would you do?

To be honest, I would rule it as I would feel fair. That would be a free relief to the nearest point of complete relief from the wrong green and that's it.

Or I would let him play the ball as it lies.

Both options free of charge, so to say, as that is the only option I can think of.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I would let him play the ball as it lies. That way he would be responsible for his wayward shot but not for poorly written Rules. Yes, that would be my ruling.

I'm taken aback that a referee could take it on himself to make a ruling arguably contrary to what a rule says on the basis of his opinion that it was badly written and hope that i've misunderstood.

Matt J · January 2, 2019

That was the complaint many of us made all along, Sawgrass.

What was?

It would be nice if someone besides yourself had an idea of the post you are referring to...

So, next time you just might want to quote...

Post 374. The last substantial thing he posted.

So... the posts he wrote after #374 were not substantial..?

Ok.

No, they were not substantial. The post I referenced is 375 words long, nearly the size of a small essay. He posted twice after that post and before I referenced the "substantial" post. They were both a sentence, 10 to 15 words. The definition of substantial is of considerable size.

I'm starting to get it. A bunch of you simply like to argue. Hence the continual quagmire.