Lessons for Seniors

[Ghost of Snead]

> @MountainGoat said:

>

> I'm almost 70, and it took me 55 years to meet the right guy. But, I've got him now!

Hmm ... mid-Maryland, former tour player - wonder who that might be.

 

[Jersey golfer]

> @MountainGoat said:

> > @"Jersey golfer" said:

> > > @MountainGoat said:

> > > I almost hate to say this out loud, but after starting this thread, I have come across a pro who has revitalized my game. He's an old school guy who made a couple simple suggestions. He didn't insist that I become a completely different person and grind in new muscle memories with 10,000 reps of something. He didn't take a single video. He just slightly modified and smoothed out what I already was. I doubt anyone would even notice the difference. But, I haven't felt this comfortable over the ball is as long as I can remember, and I'm playing better than I have in a dozen years...maybe ever. Frankly, I can't believe it.

> >

> > And who is this mystical sage and where is he located? Hope you have continued success!

>

> Ha,ha! He's mine; he's all mine! He's apparently a local legend here in mid-Maryland but had been previously unknown to me. Played a bit on tour 20 years ago, but is a total money player today. You want to play this guy, you'd better bring your wallet.

>

> Interesting story how I met him. I ran into an old friend who I hadn't seen since we last played golf together 15 years ago. This friend is a senior with a very goofy swing, and back then he could barely break 90 on a good day. When I played with him recently, and was shooting in the mid-70s...every freaking time he went out. Unbelievably solid ball striking and consistency. What really impressed me was that he had the same goofy swing. I asked him how he did it, and he told me about this pro. Recommended I go see him. I wasn't playing poorly, but there was still something missing from my game, so I thought "what the heck; let's give it a try". The rest is history.

>

> I'm almost 70, and it took me 55 years to meet the right guy. But, I've got him now!

 

We are the same age. We will be visiting friends in Columbia, is that anywhere near you and Shivas Irons?

[MountainGoat]

> @"Jersey golfer" said:

> > @MountainGoat said:

> > > @"Jersey golfer" said:

> > > > @MountainGoat said:

> > > > I almost hate to say this out loud, but after starting this thread, I have come across a pro who has revitalized my game. He's an old school guy who made a couple simple suggestions. He didn't insist that I become a completely different person and grind in new muscle memories with 10,000 reps of something. He didn't take a single video. He just slightly modified and smoothed out what I already was. I doubt anyone would even notice the difference. But, I haven't felt this comfortable over the ball is as long as I can remember, and I'm playing better than I have in a dozen years...maybe ever. Frankly, I can't believe it.

> > >

> > > And who is this mystical sage and where is he located? Hope you have continued success!

> >

> > Ha,ha! He's mine; he's all mine! He's apparently a local legend here in mid-Maryland but had been previously unknown to me. Played a bit on tour 20 years ago, but is a total money player today. You want to play this guy, you'd better bring your wallet.

> >

> > Interesting story how I met him. I ran into an old friend who I hadn't seen since we last played golf together 15 years ago. This friend is a senior with a very goofy swing, and back then he could barely break 90 on a good day. When I played with him recently, and was shooting in the mid-70s...every freaking time he went out. Unbelievably solid ball striking and consistency. What really impressed me was that he had the same goofy swing. I asked him how he did it, and he told me about this pro. Recommended I go see him. I wasn't playing poorly, but there was still something missing from my game, so I thought "what the heck; let's give it a try". The rest is history.

> >

> > I'm almost 70, and it took me 55 years to meet the right guy. But, I've got him now!

>

> We are the same age. We will be visiting friends in Columbia, is that anywhere near you and Shivas Irons?

Within an hour. I was at Second Swing in Columbia this morning.

 

[Pepperturbo]

> @MountainGoat said:

> All I want to do is enjoy the game a little more and suffer a little less. Can't you instructors help with that?

 

IMO "no."

 

I am not an instructor but am nearly 70, and still relish all the game challenges while coping with the influences of osteoarthritis in both knees and hands along with a few other obstacles, and still, find a way to get around the course and card a good score. Most of all I appreciate all aspects of golf and being outside.

 

IMO - the only way little more game enjoyment can improve and less suffering can happen is change your expectations. Though I am not sure it's plausible, there is another option. Define your learning style and find an instructor that will accommodate that learning need. That option is more difficult because many instructors are NOT versed in all learning styles. They typically have one style. Exaggerated expectation and limited understanding of what's personally probable cause more frustration and unhappiness than any instructor. Good Luck.

 

 

 

[MountainGoat]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @MountainGoat said:

> > All I want to do is enjoy the game a little more and suffer a little less. Can't you instructors help with that?

>

> IMO "no."

>

> I am not an instructor but am nearly 70, and still relish all the game challenges while coping with the influences of osteoarthritis in both knees and hands along with a few other obstacles, and still, find a way to get around the course and card a good score. Most of all I appreciate all aspects of golf and being outside.

>

> IMO - the only way little more game enjoyment can improve and less suffering can happen is change your expectations. Though I am not sure it's plausible, there is another option. Define your learning style and find an instructor that will accommodate that learning need. That option is more difficult because many instructors are NOT versed in all learning styles. They typically have one style. Exaggerated expectation and limited understanding of what's personally probable cause more frustration and unhappiness than any instructor. Good Luck.

 

I have to disagree. If you've followed my comments throughout the whole thread, I started by expressing frustration with "the path to improvement is paved with pain and misery" mantra championed by today's teaching pros. The whole idea that seniors have to completely rebuild themselves with 10,000 reps of some new move in order to build "muscle memory" is ridiculous. That's fine if you're 15, but at 69 the equation is a little different. Guys my age have tendencies that just won't go away, and we have to deal with them.

 

Later in the thread, I announced my intention to drop formal instruction and listen to my own body as a guide. Target, tempo and freedom from tension became my mantra, and I made great strides. At the end, I told the story of meeting a teacher that works with natural tendencies, and I made the final assault up the mountain of competence. He's more interested in results than process. As I write this today, I'm playing the best golf of my life, and no pain/misery was involved. I shot a perfectly competent 37 on the front 9 yesterday that included a 280 yard drive. It felt routine. It was calm; it was fun.

 

The only pain and misery I experienced during this process was when I tried to follow an instructor's direction to "do it right". Today, I listen to my body, and I do what's effective.

 

[BigEx44]

> @MountainGoat said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > @MountainGoat said:

> > > All I want to do is enjoy the game a little more and suffer a little less. Can't you instructors help with that?

> >

> > IMO "no."

> >

> > I am not an instructor but am nearly 70, and still relish all the game challenges while coping with the influences of osteoarthritis in both knees and hands along with a few other obstacles, and still, find a way to get around the course and card a good score. Most of all I appreciate all aspects of golf and being outside.

> >

> > IMO - the only way little more game enjoyment can improve and less suffering can happen is change your expectations. Though I am not sure it's plausible, there is another option. Define your learning style and find an instructor that will accommodate that learning need. That option is more difficult because many instructors are NOT versed in all learning styles. They typically have one style. Exaggerated expectation and limited understanding of what's personally probable cause more frustration and unhappiness than any instructor. Good Luck.

>

> I have to disagree. If you've followed my comments throughout the whole thread, I started by expressing frustration with "the path to improvement is paved with pain and misery" mantra championed by today's teaching pros. The whole idea that seniors have to completely rebuild themselves with 10,000 reps of some new move in order to build "muscle memory" is ridiculous. That's fine if you're 15, but at 69 the equation is a little different. Guys my age have tendencies that just won't go away, and we have to deal with them.

>

> Later in the thread, I announced my intention to drop formal instruction and listen to my own body as a guide. Target, tempo and freedom from tension became my mantra, and I made great strides. At the end, I told the story of meeting a teacher that works with natural tendencies, and I made the final assault up the mountain of competence. He's more interested in results than process. As I write this today, I'm playing the best golf of my life, and no pain/misery was involved. I shot a perfectly competent 37 on the front 9 yesterday that included a 280 yard drive. It felt routine. It was calm; it was fun.

>

> The only pain and misery I experienced during this process was when I tried to follow an instructor's direction to "do it right". Today, I listen to my body, and I do what's effective.

>

As another poster on this thread stated earlier: pain free and fun golf is EXACTLY the way Brian Sparks and Julian Mellor teach. In fact, they don't even like to call themselves teachers. They prefer to be called a "coach". They specialize in seniors and have been frustrated by teachers who treat someone as if they're 25 yr old pga pro with skills and flexibility. The vast majority of us are not. Check out their video's, they may add some nuggets to your swing.

 

[MountainGoat]

> @BigEx44 said:

> > @MountainGoat said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > @MountainGoat said:

> > > > All I want to do is enjoy the game a little more and suffer a little less. Can't you instructors help with that?

> > >

> > > IMO "no."

> > >

> > > I am not an instructor but am nearly 70, and still relish all the game challenges while coping with the influences of osteoarthritis in both knees and hands along with a few other obstacles, and still, find a way to get around the course and card a good score. Most of all I appreciate all aspects of golf and being outside.

> > >

> > > IMO - the only way little more game enjoyment can improve and less suffering can happen is change your expectations. Though I am not sure it's plausible, there is another option. Define your learning style and find an instructor that will accommodate that learning need. That option is more difficult because many instructors are NOT versed in all learning styles. They typically have one style. Exaggerated expectation and limited understanding of what's personally probable cause more frustration and unhappiness than any instructor. Good Luck.

> >

> > I have to disagree. If you've followed my comments throughout the whole thread, I started by expressing frustration with "the path to improvement is paved with pain and misery" mantra championed by today's teaching pros. The whole idea that seniors have to completely rebuild themselves with 10,000 reps of some new move in order to build "muscle memory" is ridiculous. That's fine if you're 15, but at 69 the equation is a little different. Guys my age have tendencies that just won't go away, and we have to deal with them.

> >

> > Later in the thread, I announced my intention to drop formal instruction and listen to my own body as a guide. Target, tempo and freedom from tension became my mantra, and I made great strides. At the end, I told the story of meeting a teacher that works with natural tendencies, and I made the final assault up the mountain of competence. He's more interested in results than process. As I write this today, I'm playing the best golf of my life, and no pain/misery was involved. I shot a perfectly competent 37 on the front 9 yesterday that included a 280 yard drive. It felt routine. It was calm; it was fun.

> >

> > The only pain and misery I experienced during this process was when I tried to follow an instructor's direction to "do it right". Today, I listen to my body, and I do what's effective.

> >

> As another poster on this thread stated earlier: pain free and fun golf is EXACTLY the way Brian Sparks and Julian Mellor teach. In fact, they don't even like to call themselves teachers. They prefer to be called a "coach". They specialize in seniors and have been frustrated by teachers who treat someone as if they're 25 yr old pga pro with skills and flexibility. The vast majority of us are not. Check out their video's, they may add some nuggets to your swing.

>

Thanks for posting. I hadn't heard those names before. I think there are probably a wide number of possible approaches, and essentially none of them involve a video camera, trackman or comparison to pro swings. I wish there were more PGA professionals who viewed themselves as coaches rather than teachers -- guys who can guide a developmental process rather than dictating mechanics.

 

[BigEx44]

> @MountainGoat said:

> > @BigEx44 said:

> > > @MountainGoat said:

> > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > @MountainGoat said:

> > > > > All I want to do is enjoy the game a little more and suffer a little less. Can't you instructors help with that?

> > > >

> > > > IMO "no."

> > > >

> > > > I am not an instructor but am nearly 70, and still relish all the game challenges while coping with the influences of osteoarthritis in both knees and hands along with a few other obstacles, and still, find a way to get around the course and card a good score. Most of all I appreciate all aspects of golf and being outside.

> > > >

> > > > IMO - the only way little more game enjoyment can improve and less suffering can happen is change your expectations. Though I am not sure it's plausible, there is another option. Define your learning style and find an instructor that will accommodate that learning need. That option is more difficult because many instructors are NOT versed in all learning styles. They typically have one style. Exaggerated expectation and limited understanding of what's personally probable cause more frustration and unhappiness than any instructor. Good Luck.

> > >

> > > I have to disagree. If you've followed my comments throughout the whole thread, I started by expressing frustration with "the path to improvement is paved with pain and misery" mantra championed by today's teaching pros. The whole idea that seniors have to completely rebuild themselves with 10,000 reps of some new move in order to build "muscle memory" is ridiculous. That's fine if you're 15, but at 69 the equation is a little different. Guys my age have tendencies that just won't go away, and we have to deal with them.

> > >

> > > Later in the thread, I announced my intention to drop formal instruction and listen to my own body as a guide. Target, tempo and freedom from tension became my mantra, and I made great strides. At the end, I told the story of meeting a teacher that works with natural tendencies, and I made the final assault up the mountain of competence. He's more interested in results than process. As I write this today, I'm playing the best golf of my life, and no pain/misery was involved. I shot a perfectly competent 37 on the front 9 yesterday that included a 280 yard drive. It felt routine. It was calm; it was fun.

> > >

> > > The only pain and misery I experienced during this process was when I tried to follow an instructor's direction to "do it right". Today, I listen to my body, and I do what's effective.

> > >

> > As another poster on this thread stated earlier: pain free and fun golf is EXACTLY the way Brian Sparks and Julian Mellor teach. In fact, they don't even like to call themselves teachers. They prefer to be called a "coach". They specialize in seniors and have been frustrated by teachers who treat someone as if they're 25 yr old pga pro with skills and flexibility. The vast majority of us are not. Check out their video's, they may add some nuggets to your swing.

> >

> Thanks for posting. I hadn't heard those names before. I think there are probably a wide number of possible approaches, and essentially none of them involve a video camera, trackman or comparison to pro swings. I wish there were more PGA professionals who viewed themselves as coaches rather than teachers -- guys who can guide a developmental process rather than dictating mechanics.

>

Exactly. That's why Brian Sparks and his protege Julian Mellor have made seniors their specialty. A large AND largely ignored market!

 

[Pepperturbo]

> @MountainGoat said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > @MountainGoat said:

> > > All I want to do is enjoy the game a little more and suffer a little less. Can't you instructors help with that?

> >

> > IMO "no."

> >

> > I am not an instructor but am nearly 70, and still relish all the game challenges while coping with the influences of osteoarthritis in both knees and hands along with a few other obstacles, and still, find a way to get around the course and card a good score. Most of all I appreciate all aspects of golf and being outside.

> >

> > IMO - the only way little more game enjoyment can improve and less suffering can happen is change your expectations. Though I am not sure it's plausible, there is another option. Define your learning style and find an instructor that will accommodate that learning need. That option is more difficult because many instructors are NOT versed in all learning styles. They typically have one style. Exaggerated expectation and limited understanding of what's personally probable cause more frustration and unhappiness than any instructor. Good Luck.

>

> I have to disagree. If you've followed my comments throughout the whole thread, I started by expressing frustration with "the path to improvement is paved with pain and misery" mantra championed by today's teaching pros. The whole idea that seniors have to completely rebuild themselves with 10,000 reps of some new move in order to build "muscle memory" is ridiculous. That's fine if you're 15, but at 69 the equation is a little different. Guys my age have tendencies that just won't go away, and we have to deal with them.

>

> Later in the thread, I announced my intention to drop formal instruction and listen to my own body as a guide. Target, tempo and freedom from tension became my mantra, and I made great strides. At the end, I told the story of meeting a teacher that works with natural tendencies, and I made the final assault up the mountain of competence. He's more interested in results than process. As I write this today, I'm playing the best golf of my life, and no pain/misery was involved. I shot a perfectly competent 37 on the front 9 yesterday that included a 280 yard drive. It felt routine. It was calm; it was fun.

>

> The only pain and misery I experienced during this process was when I tried to follow an instructor's direction to "do it right". Today, I listen to my body, and I do what's effective.

>

 

No, I haven't followed your every post. You shared your view of instructors and frustration then answer your own question..good. I have been playing the game since 40, and a 2-3 index. I play golf in three states, 2-3 times per week at many clubs and haven't met an instructor that promoted hitting 10k balls and changing muscle memory to seniors. But if one exists his clientele doesn't stay around long.

 

By the way, at 40 I was hitting 1500 balls a week learning the game but these days don't practice at all. I understand not using an instructor as I am self-taught but don't buy changing tempo is an end-all long-term answer to better golf and no pain for seniors. Removing a bad instructor, yes. If that works for you, fine.

 

I am happy for you, hope it's real and you can keep it up.

[MountainGoat]

> @Pepperturbo said:

... but don't buy changing tempo is an end-all long-term answer to better golf and no pain for seniors.

 

I didn't say that, and I don't espouse that.

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

> @MountainGoat said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> ... but don't buy changing tempo is an end-all long-term answer to better golf and no pain for seniors.

>

> I didn't say that, and I don't espouse that.

>

>

Guess I misunderstood what this means: **"Later in the thread, I announced my intention to drop formal instruction and listen to my own body as a guide. Target, tempo and freedom from tension became my mantra, and I made great strides."**.

 

You dumped your instructor, OK... started listening to your body... not sure how that affects anything or what "target" means to golf or how tempo contributed to no tension and better golf? Glad you discovered something that helped.

 

Whether I speed up or slow my tempo, neither direction directly influences scoring just distance of the ball. Being a clinically trained behavioral analysis person that's self-taught just trying to understand what actually improved scoring. Since football and martial arts with other extreme pursuits, aches and pains are a daily occurrence for me.

[MountainGoat]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @MountainGoat said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > ... but don't buy changing tempo is an end-all long-term answer to better golf and no pain for seniors.

> >

> > I didn't say that, and I don't espouse that.

> >

> >

> Guess I misunderstood what this means: **"Later in the thread, I announced my intention to drop formal instruction and listen to my own body as a guide. Target, tempo and freedom from tension became my mantra, and I made great strides."**.

>

> You dumped your instructor, OK... started listening to your body... not sure how that affects anything or what "target" means to golf or how tempo contributed to no tension and better golf? Glad you discovered something that helped.

>

> Whether I speed up or slow my tempo, neither direction directly influences scoring just distance of the ball. Being a clinically trained behavioral analysis person that's self-taught just trying to understand what actually improved scoring. Since football and martial arts with other extreme pursuits, aches and pains are a daily occurrence for me.

 

This is probably worth a response. If there's one subject that seniors know all about, it's Aches & Pains 101.

 

"Target" means knowing exactly where you want to hit the ball. I'm not talking about just some vague sense of direction. I'm talking about seeing the blade of grass where you want to land the ball, having an inner sense that every molecule in your body is aligned to that end, and being able to feel where the ball went after you hit it. My general sense is that few golfers have any real sense of target and only a vague sense of aim.

 

"Tempo" is more related to rhythm than to speed. Technically, it's the ratio of backswing to downswing and is generally maximized at a ratio of 3:1. Watch guys on the range and note the ones who take the club back deliberately but then jerk from the top. That's bad tempo. If your tempo is off, you literally can't retain a sense of the target, so a firm grasp of target positively affects tempo.

 

"Tension" is tricky. On one hand, too much is easy to spot. Again, go to the range and see how many guys look like they've got a poker stuck up their ***. But, you're not trying to by Gumby, either. The best swing is one with balanced tension. In my view, it's the swing you don't really feel in the sense that nothing feels out of place. It's the smoothest possible move with the best possible balance. Too many guys have too many competing swing thoughts for this to be even remotely possible. You have to get the kinks out of your swing.

[wmblake2000]

> @MountainGoat said:

> I almost hate to say this out loud, but after starting this thread, I have come across a pro who has revitalized my game. He's an old school guy who made a couple simple suggestions. He didn't insist that I become a completely different person and grind in new muscle memories with 10,000 reps of something. He didn't take a single video. He just slightly modified and smoothed out what I already was. I doubt anyone would even notice the difference. But, I haven't felt this comfortable over the ball is as long as I can remember, and I'm playing better than I have in a dozen years...maybe ever. Frankly, I can't believe it.

 

Wow! Awesome... enjoy!

 

[platgof]

I have been trying my best to go back as much as possible, and swing through the ball, using the elbows at the last second. When the weather cools, this becomes more difficult to do. My driving, woods, and hybrids are great, but irons and putting, ugh!

[platgof]

> @"Ghost of Snead" said:

> > @MountainGoat said:

> >

> > I'm almost 70, and it took me 55 years to meet the right guy. But, I've got him now!

> Hmm ... mid-Maryland, former tour player - wonder who that might be.

>

 

and I was in Olney this past spring break visiting family.

[howellhandmade]

You need Dennis Clark. Shame there’s only one of him.

[MountainGoat]

> @platgof said:

> > @"Ghost of Snead" said:

> > > @MountainGoat said:

> > >

> > > I'm almost 70, and it took me 55 years to meet the right guy. But, I've got him now!

> > Hmm ... mid-Maryland, former tour player - wonder who that might be.

> >

>

> and I was in Olney this past spring break visiting family.

 

Nope, not Jim Estes in Olney...but good guess. I spent some time with Liza Abood at that facility back in the day, though. Worked nearby and used to go there during lunch all the time.