3 wood Vs Mini driver......FIGHT!!

[ian-500]

Bought a TM Original One to test out against my Ping Rapture 2014 3w. Let battle commence. Specs;

Playing length: TM 43 5/8”, Ping 43 1/2".

Shaft: TM Tensei CK Pro Blue 80tx, Ping PWR75s.

Loft: TM 13.5°, Ping 13.

Head weight: TM 209g, Ping 211g.

Total weight: TM 348g, Ping 351g.

Grip: TM GP MCC standard, Ping GP MCC+4 midsize.

 

 

 

[jvincent]


 

[Titleist_PT23]

Nice. Callaway 3 Deep would be my other contestant. Although I've concluded these types of clubs aren't for me (I can't hit off the turf well enough and they are not really any more accurate than my driver).

[ian-500]

> @agolf1 said:

> Nice. Callaway 3 Deep would be my other contestant. Although I've concluded these types of clubs aren't for me (I can't hit off the turf well enough and they are not really any more accurate than my driver).

 

I'm always tempted to add others, but I need to stop...........

 

 

[BrianM18]

Played with the Ping G stretch for a short time almost driver length comes out every once in a while when the driver isnt working but there is not enough need for it to stay in the bag all the time. But i would like to try that TM out

[setter02]

Not really a fair fight with regards to the shafts. Have had a few Raptures over the years, and while I liked them, they never truly 'wowed' me to the point that its position in my bag was safe. Haven't hit the TM yet, but as I've built up a few 'mini drivers' using 9015D heads and steel shafts with nice success, I'd likely think the TM would produce better numbers. Deeper face, better shaft, likely better spin and launch numbers.

[ian-500]

> @gwelfgulfer said:

> Not really a fair fight with regards to the shafts. Have had a few Raptures over the years, and while I liked them, they never truly 'wowed' me to the point that its position in my bag was safe. Haven't hit the TM yet, but as I've built up a few 'mini drivers' using 9015D heads and steel shafts with nice success, I'd likely think the TM would produce better numbers. Deeper face, better shaft, likely better spin and launch numbers.

 

I agree about the shafts, but I might prefer the more counter balanced nature of the PWR75 compared to the more evenly balanced Tensei blue. I do expect the newer tech in the TM to get me more distance but we'll see. All I really want is super accuracy with great feel/sound.

[Bad9]

Given the overall similarity of the specs I wouldn't expect any significant differences in performance. They may end up having a different feel to you and maybe in trajectory but overall I would expect them to perform pretty close.

[Altiman94]

I will be interested to see how they compare as I have never hit the PING Rapture 3W. I've tried lots of 2 woods and strong 3 woods. My favorites are the 2deep, original warbird deuce, and now the 'original one'. I like the O-O enough that I sold my 815 Alpha driver and the O-O is my driver. I chose the 13.5* also and play it at the standard setting.

[Chuck905]

> @gwelfgulfer said:

> Not really a fair fight with regards to the shafts. Have had a few Raptures over the years, and while I liked them, they never truly 'wowed' me to the point that its position in my bag was safe. Haven't hit the TM yet, but as I've built up a few 'mini drivers' using 9015D heads and steel shafts with nice success, I'd likely think the TM would produce better numbers. Deeper face, better shaft, likely better spin and launch numbers.

 

I’m anticipating the Rapture will have higher spin numbers. The OO is a low spin monster.

 

Had it compared to my 9* driver and 12.5* wood vs 11.5* OO

 

 

[BLF0901]

I've never hit one of the mini drivers, but 3w is generally a better choice for me, off the tee, than driver. I never hit big push fades or snap hooks with a 3w and it's usually good for 240 - 260. My home course only plays 6500, so that's plenty.

If I'm 250+ out on a par 5, I have no business going for it anyway, so hitting 3w off the deck is generally reserved for those rounds where my score is lousy and I'm just fapping about.

[setter02]

> @Chuck905 said:

> > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > Not really a fair fight with regards to the shafts. Have had a few Raptures over the years, and while I liked them, they never truly 'wowed' me to the point that its position in my bag was safe. Haven't hit the TM yet, but as I've built up a few 'mini drivers' using 9015D heads and steel shafts with nice success, I'd likely think the TM would produce better numbers. Deeper face, better shaft, likely better spin and launch numbers.

>

> I’m anticipating the Rapture will have higher spin numbers. The OO is a low spin monster.

>

> Had it compared to my 9* driver and 12.5* wood vs 11.5* OK

>

>

 

Agreed. I always found the Rapture very easy to launch regardless of what shaft I had in it for 13*, and it never landed hot (at least for me). I still want to get my hands on a 12* SLDR mini to tinker around with.

[Chuck905]

> @gwelfgulfer said:

> > @Chuck905 said:

> > > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > > Not really a fair fight with regards to the shafts. Have had a few Raptures over the years, and while I liked them, they never truly 'wowed' me to the point that its position in my bag was safe. Haven't hit the TM yet, but as I've built up a few 'mini drivers' using 9015D heads and steel shafts with nice success, I'd likely think the TM would produce better numbers. Deeper face, better shaft, likely better spin and launch numbers.

> >

> > I’m anticipating the Rapture will have higher spin numbers. The OO is a low spin monster.

> >

> > Had it compared to my 9* driver and 12.5* wood vs 11.5* OK

> >

> >

>

> Agreed. I always found the Rapture very easy to launch regardless of what shaft I had in it for 13*, and it never landed hot (at least for me). I still want to get my hands on a 12* SLDR mini to tinker around with.

 

You gotta do what’s best for you. I think it’s very important to see the launch, spin, carry and roll out.

 

For me, the OO launched low, lowest spin, less carry on average but had the longest roll out, however, I still prefer the forgiveness of a 460cc driver and versatility of a strong 3 wood.

 

The plus for the OO was the tighter shot dispersion at a loss of 10-15 yards which may be the right fit for some.

 

[Chuck905]

> @gwelfgulfer said:

> > @Chuck905 said:

> > > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > > Not really a fair fight with regards to the shafts. Have had a few Raptures over the years, and while I liked them, they never truly 'wowed' me to the point that its position in my bag was safe. Haven't hit the TM yet, but as I've built up a few 'mini drivers' using 9015D heads and steel shafts with nice success, I'd likely think the TM would produce better numbers. Deeper face, better shaft, likely better spin and launch numbers.

> >

> > I’m anticipating the Rapture will have higher spin numbers. The OO is a low spin monster.

> >

> > Had it compared to my 9* driver and 12.5* wood vs 11.5* OK

> >

> >

>

> Agreed. I always found the Rapture very easy to launch regardless of what shaft I had in it for 13*, and it never landed hot (at least for me). I still want to get my hands on a 12* SLDR mini to tinker around with.

 

You gotta do what’s best for you. I think it’s very important to see the launch, spin, carry and roll out.

 

For me, the OO launched low, lowest spin, less carry on average but had the longest roll out, however, I still prefer the forgiveness of a 460cc driver and versatility of a strong 3 wood.

 

The plus for the OO was the tighter shot dispersion at a loss of 10-15 yards which may be the right fit for some.

 

[Fairway14]

I would like to see a company introduce a "mini driver" that is more than a blow up 3-wood. Specifically, a 360CC to 380CC driver with a 44" stock shaft, available in lofts ranging from 9* to 11*.

[jmgledhill]

Wait, someone actually bought that mini driver. I thought it was for marketing buzz.

 

That aside, is the mini driver a replacement for driver or 3 wood in your bag? Does one hit the mini driver off the deck?

[setter02]

> @Fairway14 said:

> I would like to see a company introduce a "mini driver" that is more than a blow up 3-wood. Specifically, a 360CC to 380CC driver with a 44" stock shaft, available in lofts ranging from 9* to 11*.

 

They did, 15ish years ago called the 983 K/E.

 

Nike tried this in the Dymo line tho not sure it ever came to retail. I remember Ames at a demo on the range where I was working at the time was gaming it, said it was too low spin that he had to play a softer shaft and ball that spun more just to play it. Experiment didn't last long.

[rt_charger]

When i saw the name of the thread I thought it was comparing mini drivers vs 3 woods in general. I believe they're two different clubs with entirely different purposes

 

Mini driver - a small headed driver for those who don't like big headed clubs.

 

3 wood - usually your second wood, used off the tee when you need accuracy, also designed with a better sole for hitting off the fairway

[Fairway14]

> @gwelfgulfer said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > I would like to see a company introduce a "mini driver" that is more than a blow up 3-wood. Specifically, a 360CC to 380CC driver with a 44" stock shaft, available in lofts ranging from 9* to 11*.

>

> They did, 15ish years ago called the 983 K/E.

>

> Nike tried this in the Dymo line tho not sure it ever came to retail. I remember Ames at a demo on the range where I was working at the time was gaming it, said it was too low spin that he had to play a softer shaft and ball that spun more just to play it. Experiment didn't last long.

 

I understand that 15 to 20 years ago there were several 3600CC to 380CC size drivers.

But there has never been a modern (made within the last few years) driver of that size, one with the latest materials and other technology.

[setter02]

> @Fairway14 said:

> > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > I would like to see a company introduce a "mini driver" that is more than a blow up 3-wood. Specifically, a 360CC to 380CC driver with a 44" stock shaft, available in lofts ranging from 9* to 11*.

> >

> > They did, 15ish years ago called the 983 K/E.

> >

> > Nike tried this in the Dymo line tho not sure it ever came to retail. I remember Ames at a demo on the range where I was working at the time was gaming it, said it was too low spin that he had to play a softer shaft and ball that spun more just to play it. Experiment didn't last long.

>

> I understand that 15 to 20 years ago there were several 3600CC to 380CC size drivers.

> But there has never been a modern (made within the last few years) driver of that size, one with the latest materials and other technology.

 

And they won't make one for such a small market, unless they think it will sell. As far as latest materials, those were all Titanium heads so not sure anything outside of carbon crowns and maybe thinner faces is 'new technology' and they are .83 cor already. Put a modern shaft in one of these and it would likely surprise many that it can still keep up.

[Fairway14]

> @gwelfgulfer said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > I would like to see a company introduce a "mini driver" that is more than a blow up 3-wood. Specifically, a 360CC to 380CC driver with a 44" stock shaft, available in lofts ranging from 9* to 11*.

> > >

> > > They did, 15ish years ago called the 983 K/E.

> > >

> > > Nike tried this in the Dymo line tho not sure it ever came to retail. I remember Ames at a demo on the range where I was working at the time was gaming it, said it was too low spin that he had to play a softer shaft and ball that spun more just to play it. Experiment didn't last long.

> >

> > I understand that 15 to 20 years ago there were several 3600CC to 380CC size drivers.

> > But there has never been a modern (made within the last few years) driver of that size, one with the latest materials and other technology.

>

> And they won't make one for such a small market, unless they think it will sell. As far as latest materials, those were all Titanium heads so not sure anything outside of carbon crowns and maybe thinner faces is 'new technology' and they are .83 cor already. Put a modern shaft in one of these and it would likely surprise many that it can still keep up.

 

I don't know that it would be a "small market" for a modern material 360CC to 380CC driver. There could possibly be a relatively large market for this size driver, for all skill levels, from high handicap to Tour player.

[setter02]

> @Fairway14 said:

> > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > I would like to see a company introduce a "mini driver" that is more than a blow up 3-wood. Specifically, a 360CC to 380CC driver with a 44" stock shaft, available in lofts ranging from 9* to 11*.

> > > >

> > > > They did, 15ish years ago called the 983 K/E.

> > > >

> > > > Nike tried this in the Dymo line tho not sure it ever came to retail. I remember Ames at a demo on the range where I was working at the time was gaming it, said it was too low spin that he had to play a softer shaft and ball that spun more just to play it. Experiment didn't last long.

> > >

> > > I understand that 15 to 20 years ago there were several 3600CC to 380CC size drivers.

> > > But there has never been a modern (made within the last few years) driver of that size, one with the latest materials and other technology.

> >

> > And they won't make one for such a small market, unless they think it will sell. As far as latest materials, those were all Titanium heads so not sure anything outside of carbon crowns and maybe thinner faces is 'new technology' and they are .83 cor already. Put a modern shaft in one of these and it would likely surprise many that it can still keep up.

>

> I don't know that it would be a "small market" for a modern material 360CC to 380CC driver. There could possibly be a relatively large market for this size driver, for all skill levels, from high handicap to Tour player.

 

High cappers need the face size as they aren't consistent striking the ball. Pro's are, so not needing a very niche club. The club would be far too deep to use off the deck or fairway unless you are VJ. The actual market for this would be smaller than left handed blades. If the OEM's wanted you to play better golf (generalization of the masses), they would put in shorter, heavier shafts in current heads. But lemmings will lemming.

 

Lemmings could potentially rush out and buy it, then complain that they don't hit it any further than their current driver, if not shorter, but a few more would be in play. A weekend warrior shooting 125+ (if actually keeping score and by rules) only cares about that 300 yd drive he hit (220-240 reality) and that brings them back. If more were clammoring for smaller headed drivers, sales of 430-440 cc heads would be higher as a starting point that 'could' catch the eyes of the OEM's. But they don't, probably not even by a 5 to 1 margin.

[revanant]

I’ve been hitting my F8 3 wood at 15.5 degrees of loft exclusively off the tee this summer, and I’ve found it very helpful. I’m a lot more consistent with my 3 wood, and it sets me up for a good second shot off the deck on par 4s and par 5s with the same club.

 

At my swing speed, I get a good 400-420 yards out of two shots from my 3 wood. It’s enough to handle a lot of holes, but I do find I run into trouble on longer par 4s.

 

I definitely struggle with my driver technique, whereas I find hitting 3 wood fairly natural. I do think there’s an underrated benefit to hitting 3 wood off the tee if your next shot is also going to be with a fairway wood—it’s a bit like a practice swing.

 

I’m considering picking up a light and short fairway wood shaft (55 grams and under 44 length) and putting it in my driver. To the extent the mini driver would offer more ballspeed with a similar technique to fairway wood, I could see it going in my bag and getting some play. At least until I figure out my driver. : )

[ian-500]

1st range session later today, so let's see how these fair......

[Titleist_PT23]

> @gwelfgulfer said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > > > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > > I would like to see a company introduce a "mini driver" that is more than a blow up 3-wood. Specifically, a 360CC to 380CC driver with a 44" stock shaft, available in lofts ranging from 9* to 11*.

> > > > >

> > > > > They did, 15ish years ago called the 983 K/E.

> > > > >

> > > > > Nike tried this in the Dymo line tho not sure it ever came to retail. I remember Ames at a demo on the range where I was working at the time was gaming it, said it was too low spin that he had to play a softer shaft and ball that spun more just to play it. Experiment didn't last long.

> > > >

> > > > I understand that 15 to 20 years ago there were several 3600CC to 380CC size drivers.

> > > > But there has never been a modern (made within the last few years) driver of that size, one with the latest materials and other technology.

> > >

> > > And they won't make one for such a small market, unless they think it will sell. As far as latest materials, those were all Titanium heads so not sure anything outside of carbon crowns and maybe thinner faces is 'new technology' and they are .83 cor already. Put a modern shaft in one of these and it would likely surprise many that it can still keep up.

> >

> > I don't know that it would be a "small market" for a modern material 360CC to 380CC driver. There could possibly be a relatively large market for this size driver, for all skill levels, from high handicap to Tour player.

>

> High cappers need the face size as they aren't consistent striking the ball. Pro's are, so not needing a very niche club. The club would be far too deep to use off the deck or fairway unless you are VJ. The actual market for this would be smaller than left handed blades. If the OEM's wanted you to play better golf (generalization of the masses), they would put in shorter, heavier shafts in current heads. But lemmings will lemming.

>

> Lemmings could potentially rush out and buy it, then complain that they don't hit it any further than their current driver, if not shorter, but a few more would be in play. A weekend warrior shooting 125+ (if actually keeping score and by rules) only cares about that 300 yd drive he hit (220-240 reality) and that brings them back. If more were clammoring for smaller headed drivers, sales of 430-440 cc heads would be higher as a starting point that 'could' catch the eyes of the OEM's. But they don't, probably not even by a 5 to 1 margin.

I finally sold my 983E a few weeks ago (surprised I could get anything for it). Good strikes are just as good as anything else I've hit but the face twisting on any off centre hits is just too punishing relative to something bigger. I finally found a larger/newer head that has as good of a ball flight as the E for me, so the E was never going to see a serious round again.

[Fairway14]

> @revanant said:

>

> I definitely struggle with my driver technique, whereas I find hitting 3 wood fairly natural. I do think there’s an underrated benefit to hitting 3 wood off the tee if your next shot is also going to be with a fairway wood—it’s a bit like a practice swing.

>

Also, a player routinely swinging 3-wood off the tee box usually receives benefits to his/her rhythm and tempo throughout the bag.

In other words, for many players driver brings on a "hit it hard for distance" mentality which wrecks swing tempo and rhythm.

 

 

[ian-500]

There's a tall wire fence at the end of the range, lazered at 240yd to the top of one of the uprights. The TM carried the fence more often than the Ping. Tried different tee heights and adjusted lofts. An inch high tee seemed to suit both clubs the best. After some trial and error, I had the TM lofted down 1 notch (is that 12.9*?) and the Ping down at 12.5*. TM had an ever so slightly higher ball flight. Both felt great on centred strikes, with the Ping feeling better off centre. Sound wise, the Ping was a little more muted than the TM. Ping was slightly more consistent hitting the ball straight, but compared to any 45"+ drivers I've had, both of these are straighter. Tried a ball each from the deck......caught the Ping beautifully and it was nearly as far as from the tee. The TM wasn't struck anywhere near as good and subsequently was a worm burner. So, more testing required but on the course to see actual distance and also what I'm like with each without a warm-up.

[Double Dodger]

Fix that chronic toe miss on the Ping and I bet it performs a little better :) .....

[Fairway14]

> @gwelfgulfer said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > > > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > > I would like to see a company introduce a "mini driver" that is more than a blow up 3-wood. Specifically, a 360CC to 380CC driver with a 44" stock shaft, available in lofts ranging from 9* to 11*.

> > > > >

> > > > > They did, 15ish years ago called the 983 K/E.

> > > > >

> > > > > Nike tried this in the Dymo line tho not sure it ever came to retail. I remember Ames at a demo on the range where I was working at the time was gaming it, said it was too low spin that he had to play a softer shaft and ball that spun more just to play it. Experiment didn't last long.

> > > >

> > > > I understand that 15 to 20 years ago there were several 3600CC to 380CC size drivers.

> > > > But there has never been a modern (made within the last few years) driver of that size, one with the latest materials and other technology.

> > >

> > > And they won't make one for such a small market, unless they think it will sell. As far as latest materials, those were all Titanium heads so not sure anything outside of carbon crowns and maybe thinner faces is 'new technology' and they are .83 cor already. Put a modern shaft in one of these and it would likely surprise many that it can still keep up.

> >

> > I don't know that it would be a "small market" for a modern material 360CC to 380CC driver. There could possibly be a relatively large market for this size driver, for all skill levels, from high handicap to Tour player.

>

> High cappers need the face size as they aren't consistent striking the ball. Pro's are, so not needing a very niche club. The club would be far too deep to use off the deck or fairway unless you are VJ. The actual market for this would be smaller than left handed blades. If the OEM's wanted you to play better golf (generalization of the masses), they would put in shorter, heavier shafts in current heads. But lemmings will lemming.

>

> Lemmings could potentially rush out and buy it, then complain that they don't hit it any further than their current driver, if not shorter, but a few more would be in play. A weekend warrior shooting 125+ (if actually keeping score and by rules) only cares about that 300 yd drive he hit (220-240 reality) and that brings them back. If more were clammoring for smaller headed drivers, sales of 430-440 cc heads would be higher as a starting point that 'could' catch the eyes of the OEM's. But they don't, probably not even by a 5 to 1 margin.

 

About 15 years ago the TM R7 was a 425CC driver very popular on Tour as well as for amateur play. I think if TM or Ping or Callaway or Titleist now introduced a driver of that size , using the latest head material technology and weighting concepts, it would be popular. And if that one at 425CC gained some traction it's possible the club designers and engineers could keep working on it and maybe put out an awesome playing driver in the 380 CC size range.

I rotate playing 460CC , 440CC and 425 CC drivers. My experience has been that the larger heads do provide some distance forgiveness from slightly mishit shots, but the 425CC is the easiest to consistently square at impact. All my drivers have finished lengths of between 44.5" and 45".

[setter02]

> @Fairway14 said:

> > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > > @gwelfgulfer said:

> > > > > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > > > I would like to see a company introduce a "mini driver" that is more than a blow up 3-wood. Specifically, a 360CC to 380CC driver with a 44" stock shaft, available in lofts ranging from 9* to 11*.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > They did, 15ish years ago called the 983 K/E.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nike tried this in the Dymo line tho not sure it ever came to retail. I remember Ames at a demo on the range where I was working at the time was gaming it, said it was too low spin that he had to play a softer shaft and ball that spun more just to play it. Experiment didn't last long.

> > > > >

> > > > > I understand that 15 to 20 years ago there were several 3600CC to 380CC size drivers.

> > > > > But there has never been a modern (made within the last few years) driver of that size, one with the latest materials and other technology.

> > > >

> > > > And they won't make one for such a small market, unless they think it will sell. As far as latest materials, those were all Titanium heads so not sure anything outside of carbon crowns and maybe thinner faces is 'new technology' and they are .83 cor already. Put a modern shaft in one of these and it would likely surprise many that it can still keep up.

> > >

> > > I don't know that it would be a "small market" for a modern material 360CC to 380CC driver. There could possibly be a relatively large market for this size driver, for all skill levels, from high handicap to Tour player.

> >

> > High cappers need the face size as they aren't consistent striking the ball. Pro's are, so not needing a very niche club. The club would be far too deep to use off the deck or fairway unless you are VJ. The actual market for this would be smaller than left handed blades. If the OEM's wanted you to play better golf (generalization of the masses), they would put in shorter, heavier shafts in current heads. But lemmings will lemming.

> >

> > Lemmings could potentially rush out and buy it, then complain that they don't hit it any further than their current driver, if not shorter, but a few more would be in play. A weekend warrior shooting 125+ (if actually keeping score and by rules) only cares about that 300 yd drive he hit (220-240 reality) and that brings them back. If more were clammoring for smaller headed drivers, sales of 430-440 cc heads would be higher as a starting point that 'could' catch the eyes of the OEM's. But they don't, probably not even by a 5 to 1 margin.

>

> About 15 years ago the TM R7 was a 425CC driver very popular on Tour as well as for amateur play. I think if TM or Ping or Callaway or Titleist now introduced a driver of that size , using the latest head material technology and weighting concepts, it would be popular. And if that one at 425CC gained some traction it's possible the club designers and engineers could keep working on it and maybe put out an awesome playing driver in the 380 CC size range.

> I rotate playing 460CC , 440CC and 425 CC drivers. My experience has been that the larger heads do provide some distance forgiveness from slightly mishit shots, but the 425CC is the easiest to consistently square at impact. All my drivers have finished lengths of between 44.5" and 45".

 

I think that they would be more limited in what they can manipulate with the small foot print, and it is completely counter to everything that they have been pushing for years now. Higher moi, lower cg and a more forgiving product. Given the smaller footprint, I don't know how much they could go with the thinner walls/sole and crown given how much lighter the head would be. How lite weight of a shaft would have to be used. Couldn't find the head weight on the 983k or O-O, but would be guessing about the same as a modern stick in the 192-202 range? 3wds are already in the 210g range. Would be interesting, But I don't see much of a market outside of wrx for something like this. Although surprised that somethign hasn't been done for shorter length drivers given how much single length product is now out there vs. 5 years ago. I think they are going to easier money in stock offering sales vs. the custom fit that would be needed to make a 43 1/2" driver work for the masses.

 

Not saying I wouldn't game it as it would likely make things better in the end for me. I still have lots of smaller older drivers kicking around (nak 380/420, 975J, 983K, R510 TP and a few others) that I play with, so this is in my wheel house for interest, I just don't see it happening.