Manuel De La Torre Swing Focus

[juststeve]

It will allow you to focus on what you're doing with the club and not woory much about the ball. That's likely to help a lot.

Steve

[bortass]

I saw some improvement on the range today. Not perfect but it's in the right direction. I gotta look at his section on the grip. Mine is pretty weak, thumb on the left side of the shaft. This is how it's been for years once I started to draw the ball. I even have some nice wear marks in the grip of my driver from it. I pretty much got rid of my pushes just by making it a bit stronger.

[jporter91]

I’ve been doing this recently. Three repetitions of taking the club back then returning the club to address, then taking a shot. Really engrains the proper path back to the ball. Forever I’ve felt like the club took the arc back to the top, and then a straight path back to the ball.

[juststeve]

The idea is to grip the club in a manner that will bring the club face back to square without manipulation on your part. I'm having diffidently imagining how that can happen with the grip you descrive, left thumb on the left side of the shaft.

A good way to find a starting point for your grip is: 1) Assume an address position without a club; 2) allow your relaxed arms to hang down from the shoulder joints in front of you; 3) slip the club into your left hand as it naturally hangs; 4) Fit you right hand to the left hand so the palms face one another.

That will get you close to a proper grip for you. Once you get used to it you may want to make slight adjustments based on ball flight.

Remember the only thing you want to be doing to square the club face is ti let it swing.

 

Steve

[Nels55]

Here is a look at the grip of Bobby Jones if you do this then you should be good to go:

The thumbs are on the front and back 'sides' of the shaft which is as it should be and will help prevent the thumb injury that I got from having my lead thumb on the top of the shaft in the past.

 

[bortass]

@juststeve Thanks for the response. I think I will need some time to figure out the grip. I reread Chapter 1 The Grip. My current grip has what I consider the V of the right hand pointed towards my right shoulder. I slide my thumb over to the left side of the shaft so that it touches the tip of my right index finger. To get it to point to the center I'd have to rotate my wrist left, over the top of the club more and then my palms don't match or bend my right wrist more then I do currently. I have always struggled with how to tell where do the Vs point. The concept should be easy but I don't Grok it.

My left hand, thumb would rest on left index finger if there were no club, V points between my shoulders because my wrist is bent to hold the club. Right Hand my thumb goes around the grip and touches the tip of my index finger. So that V is visually messed up but when I put my thumb on top of the shaft the V seem to point to my right shoulder. Maybe I'm overthinking this... Sigh. My thought is I'll just shift my thumb more to the right since my palms do seem to be facing each other when I start to make my grip.

[juststeve]

The problem with copying Bobby Jones grip is that we don't know how Mr. Jones' hands hung naturally at his sides. If your hand hang naturally differently than Jones his exact grip position won't be optimal for you. We are all built a little differently so one set of grip position won't work for everyone.

Steve

[bortass]

Gotcha. I'm being too literal and overthinking it.

[Nels55]

I believe that you are probably correct on that one. My hands hang in such a way that my grip is very close to Bobby Jones' grip when I put them on the club as they hang. Jone's hands hung about the same as mine as shown in this picture:

Another factor is how your wrists bend. I have heard that a lot of really good golfers and Hogan in particular could bend their hands in radial deviation so that the thumbs nearly touch the arm. When I try that my thumb is at a 90 degree angle to my forearm which is possibly why I got the chronic use injury when my grip was such that I had the thumb on top of the shaft.

Anyway I have noticed that a lot of instructors teach one grip and don't care how the students hands hang while some others do pay attention. Here is de la Torre's recommended grip:

[juststeve]

Nels:

Thanks for the Jones photos. It looks like he had his hands on the club much like they hung at his side.

That is also Manny's grip but he individually tested each students grip to make sure it would work for them. It wasn't one size fits all.

Steve

[Nels55]

@juststeve, you are welcome! It has taken me a long number of years to arrive back at what I believe is the best grip for me. It is very close to Bobby Jones and is the grip that I was taught when I first took lessons about 40 years ago! I have tried a number of times to swing like Bobby Jones did with the cupped lead wrist at the top of the backswing and I can do it but my contact is not good and I tend to spray the ball quite a bit. I do a lot better with a swing that feels like the club face is staying square to the path and results in a TOS position with the lead wrist flat or bowed a bit. I do find that practicing the cupped wrist swing once in a while seems to help my regular swing to work better. I have a long history of playing better when I change something which can get frustrating when going around in circles. Practicing different stuff and then using the same swing to play seems to help keep me off of that merry go round.

[sshadow2]

Had 2 rounds since posting here. First round was great! Didn't have many swing thoughts, no tension in me, and had (for me) really good ball-striking. Second round, disaster! First time at course, tense and uneasy from the start and fell easily into old patterns. But I'm already convinced of how well this swing works for me. Still breaking patterns.

Personally, I find the getting the grip just right is the most important thing. I also think the shaft goes into the life line of the left hand (bottom of thumb on top) vs the heel of the left hand on top like most teachers teach. From the pic above, it looks that way to me as well.

What do you all think?

[Nels55]

@sshadow2, I wonder what your expectations were before each of the two rounds? It seems that the less expect and the more I accept the better I am able swing.
Here are a few things that help me to swing better and get better results:
Get stupid over the ball, don't think turn the brain off and simply focus on the task at hand which is to swing the club.
Think of making a pure swing and let go of the result. This is kind of a way to sit back and observe instead of trying to control. Easy to say and not so easy to do but it is possible and the more often I can do it the more often I might swing well.
Make a good practice swing that feels right and then get up to the ball and repeat with no wasted time.
For me monitoring how relaxed my hands are at impact tells me a lot about how I am swinging and how I am dealing with anxiety.
One other thing about this type of swing is that in the past when I have tried it I have often started out well maybe for a few rounds and then my mechanics have deteriorated to the point where I am no longer hitting it well at all. I have developed things like a big over the top move or some other swing problem without realizing it. Now I have my own stuff to practice now which helps me to keep my swing on track. That is hopefully something that does not happen to you but if it does then you need to figure out how to train your swing while practicing so that it will hold up while playing.

[bortass]

@sshadow2 Tension free golf has always been my best golf. That's how I felt weeks ago when I shot my best 9 ever. I think keeping it simple while I play is best, see below.

Well I played 9 yesterday afternoon. I played around with my right thumb for the first three holes. Swing was decent to good on the first two. On number 3, I went on and topped two shots in a row(par 5). Said screw it and went back to just 'swing the club' with my normal grip. It really cleared my head and things felt normal. I bladed the third shot on #3 but it rolled over 200 yards, lol. After that I got the ball airborne with each shot and I hit some extremely good shots in my opinion. It was a radical departure from last week where I was topping the ball quite a bit. My typical push miss was there still but I hit a couple really great draws with my irons on the two par threes and another great draw with my 4w off the tee.

I think this was a good lesson in leaving the range on the range and don't tinker/mess with things while playing, also don't think about it when playing. If things go south, just swing the club.

[sshadow2]

Yeah my mechanics deteriorated after 1 round.

For over the top, I don't struggle with it like I used to, with the mindset of swinging the clubhead, swing path hasn't be an issue nor over active shoulders.

Outside of fundamental tweaks (especially grip), my biggest issue has been tension and always trying to hit the ball hard. The natural, relaxed, minimalistic approach to the swing is what drew me here.

What works best for me is to think of the clubhead like I would a hammer. to be aware of the clubhead throughout the swing and hit through the back of the ball. This is my only swing thought and it usually keeps the clubface very square. For me the most difficult attribute of this method is ball position. I usually use Nicklaus's position (more forward) which gave me a one way miss and high ball flight. The weight shift I do make the ball in this method fly uncomfortably low. I'm using my legs to do this when I should be letting the club do this.

Just got to get the reps in. Courses are open in my area but ranges are not.

[juststeve]

!. Don't think about the club head. What you are swinging is the whole club, grip shaft and club head. Focusing on the club head is destructive.

If you want to swing the club as Manny taught the starting position is key. Club head in the center of your stance, ball in front of the club head, then swing around a fixed point. Provided you set up correctly back and forth from a fixed point will bring you back to the ball without conscious manipulation. Play the ball elsewhere and you will need to find it on every swing.

Steve

[juststeve]

Bortass:

Knowing what to do with the club is only half the battle. The other half is repetition over and over until you do it well and consistently. Every time you try to correct a problem with a new method you have wasted the previous reps. It takes a while but if you do what Manny said to do you will hit good shots.

Steve

[Nels55]

I am curious why you say not to think about the clubhead? Earnest Jones who de la Torre claims as his swing mentor was all about swinging the clubhead like a weight on a string. Have you ever read his book 'Swing the Clubhead'?

[juststeve]

Yes, I've read the Jones book. So had Manny. With full knowledge of what Jones wrote he quite intentionally modified swing the club head to swing the entire club. Why? Two reasons I suspect. 1) Swing the whole club is simply a more accurate description of the motion Manny taught. If the club head is swinging, not just being flipped back and forth from the wrist joint, the handle and the shaft are swinging as well. 2) Thinking about swinging the club head promotes a flipping action which Manny would call leverage and leverage is the enemy of a true swinging motion

Steve

[Nels55]

One of Jones main points was no levering and if you flip the weight on a string the weight will stop swinging and you are levering so swinging the clubhead definitely does not mean flipping it with the wrists! de la Torre did depart from Earnest Jones teaching as you mention. His way probably works better for some folks yourself included. Not for me though as I find that focusing on swinging the clubhead is far more productive then thinking about setting the club over my trail shoulder and then my lead shoulder with not much thought in between. There is no right or wrong in this case. To each their own! Everyone has to find what works for themselves.

Have you seen the Frankel brothers video or book by any chance?

[juststeve]

I know about the Frankels. They teach Jones, not de la Torre. If that works for you fine, go with it. It's worked for plenty of others.

 

Steve

[Chazb]

As I wasn’t a really bad at Hitting the ball,I have come to the realization that being in my early seventies is no time for a swing change,searching for the holy grail is not something I need to do.

I will just try to improve on what I do now.

[sshadow2]

It's more natural for me to think of a contact point or area. Same with a baseball bat. Same with a hammer. I don't think of hitting a nail with the whole hammer...just the middle of the head.

I don't have a problem with flipping and I don't feel Jones's original method promotes it either. As I mentioned, I believe as noted by golf historians who speak about the grip used in golf back before the 80s, the grip in the life line is the way to go with this swing -- for me. So there is no excessive leverage because my wrist isn't that mobile. In fact, in my practice, I get a very consistent turf interaction and contact with the ball. AND, I can take it to the course if I get my mind right!

Not saying you're wrong in your suspicions, but i do disagree as it pertains to me. If I think of hitting the ball with the whole club, I'm going to hit it fat with every swing.

[sshadow2]

As stated earlier, focusing on the clubhead works better for me. It's absolutely not destructive -- for me.

Also, Torre would consider my original ball placement as a specialty shot. The shot for higher ball flight. It was just my permanent position and it gave me a slight fade with everything over 8 iron. One way miss.

[Sean2]

There are a lot of swing methodologies out there. No methodology is particular right or wrong. It depends on the individual and what suits him. I just started with MLDT when we got shut down and was getting some positive results. I know it will take reps to get more consistent with it, but I find it the easiest methodology to understand. I never did consistently well with a body centric swing. Tomorrow I am hitting a golf ball for the first time in over six weeks and will use the MDLT method. I just have to be patient and stick with it.

[bdcava]

The Manny stuff is great. I realize that I have to keep reading it over and over. I recently videotaped my swing and saw that I'm pulling the club inside on the backswing, but I knew that MDLT said it's from my left hand being too dominant (I'm a righty). For me, the thought was "use the right hand" . I know I'm supposed to use both but this particular thought produced the desired result. There's a lot of gems in that book.

[juststeve]

You should use both but when one becomes lazy it's fine to think about the lazy hand to get it to do its part. Similarly we use both arms in the forward swing but when I'm not getting through the shot it helps me to think about powering the forward swing with my right arm. Both are working but I'm feeling right arm.

Every day is a new day. What to do doesn't change but what we feel to do it does.

Steve

[mocokid]

Free bird has a few good drills for that, the one arm swing (right hand), and finishing with the right arm straight and parallel to the ground- 3 o clock. His stuff is top notch.

 

When it goes bad for me, I try to hit 2-3 inches in front of the ball, I'll actually look there than at the ball (From John Hayes).

[Chazb]

In being frustrated at the swing changes I have decided to give the MDL another shot,the biggest concern is getting the feeling of starting down with the upper part of the arms.

[mocokid]

Hard to do, I just try to swing arms freely, let the body respond to the arm swing, don't get caught up with thinking about one segment of the body.