Has Anyone Ever Come Across A Moe Student Or Graves Golf Academy Pupil?

[ChaosTheory]

I used to hit a lot of thins.  For me I think it was flipping because it went away when I got rid of the flip.

 

 I am not able to comfortably stand as far from the ball as Graves teaches. So I don’t.  I just take a comfy forward lean, and drop my arms down.  That’s how far from the ball I stand.  So that is more Junge.  Super easy on my back.  
 

The farther away you stand, the harder it is to hit down on irons. Moe had the magic move.

[jpbouffard]

I've been trying this a little bit lately. As a 10 index player, I have no business trying to teach myself anything, let alone a swing overhaul. But I like experimenting. When I took up golf, one of the first things I did was I read Hogan's 5 lessons, and of course after this, one of the things I began to do was meticulously check my alignment and my address position. One of the things I could never seem to feel right about, consistently (and still can't, 30 years later), was set up. It felt like if I set up to a driver like Hogan did, with the ball forward, if I soled the club right behind the ball, it would feel like my shoulders and upper body were way open. Maybe that IS how it's supposed to be, but I could never feel comfortable with this. So when I saw a picture of Moe Norman with the club soled way behind the ball, I found it intriguing. This prompted me to want to try it. In my brief experimentation, it does feel a bit more comfortable and I feel more uniform in my set up with all clubs. Club head is always under my chin, and my hands sort of centered. 

 

I think the reason we don't see this style more among professionals is 1) everyone pursues power on the pro tour (probably for good reasons), and this method is never going to generate as much power as a conventional swing with more rotation and posting up on the forward leg; and 2) it looks "weird." 

 

I think if an expert player achieved real tour success playing this way, it might catch on. 

 

Steve Stricker isn't exactly Moe Norman, but he is one guy that seems to keep his right foot down, flat, at impact, for every club in the bag. He isn't a long hitter, but he's long enough. And he's really accurate. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by jpbouffard

[SwingBlues]

3 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

I used to hit a lot of thins.  For me I think it was flipping because it went away when I got rid of the flip.

 

 I am not able to comfortably stand as far from the ball as Graves teaches. So I don’t.  I just take a comfy forward lean, and drop my arms down.  That’s how far from the ball I stand.  So that is more Junge.  Super easy on my back.  
 

The farther away you stand, the harder it is to hit down on irons. Moe had the magic move.

 

Agreed. Not bad for a guys described as "70 year old, overweight, out of shape and lost mobility" by Kirk Junge.

Edited June 15, 2021 by SwingBlues

[ChaosTheory]

6 hours ago, SwingBlues said:

 

Agreed. Not bad for a guys described as "70 year old, overweight, out of shape and lost mobility" by Kirk Junge.

I meant that Moe had the move, but most of us don’t.

[SwingBlues]

8 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

I meant that Moe had the move, but most of us don’t.

 

Interesting. I was at the range yesterday to sort out my driver. I was having difficulties even though my video showing I was executing the lower body to the top. Transitioning to the downswing, I felt I was moving force from the braced right inner to the stable front foot. Yet, I was still hooking the ball (yes, check the grip and all).

 

Then a A-HA moment. I thought, if I could not swing at 100% with the driver, why the heck not try it at 50%?

 

To do this, I felt I really LIGHTENED my upper body & arms in terms of tension. At the top of the backswing, it felt like I had a light club. Still execute the brace -> stability transition....then I started middling the ball and straight. It really felt like the speed was down 50% and yet, the kicker, the ball was carrying over 250. What the hell just happened?

 

I was thinking about this - the videos from Todd is great, shows you the sequence & why but yet, one of the hidden truth is management of the tension. We know the lower body is tense because of the bracing but for some of us, we may misread this (consciously or sub-consciously) to tensioning the upper body as well. Or, how much to tension?

 

It reminded me of like the 5 lessons from Hogan, its spelled out but you never knew what Hogan was feeling, same for Sam Snead where he says hes holding the club like hes holding a bird and some have said, Sam could mean that he was still holding the bird pretty damn tight - it's one aspect of the swing that is not easily quantifiable into any video that you and I can see...

 

I'm going to keep with the model but explore and be aware of the upper body tensions. I think I am onto something here...

Edited June 15, 2021 by SwingBlues

[SwingBlues]

If anyone has problems with the transition and the "vertical drop", this latest FREE series "Nuts and Bolts" by Todd on YouTube explains it very simply...

 

 

 

It so weird, I probably GET more from his free YouTube than I did with the membership. Perhaps it's just the time I needed to absorb what I picked up in membership.

 

Anyway, enjoy & hope it helps.

 

ps check out his other Parts 1 to 5, its all excellent in a very Todd Graves way 😉

Edited June 17, 2021 by SwingBlues

[ChipNRun]

On 5/5/2020 at 1:56 AM, EmperorPenguin said:

I have never come across a Moe golfer, and if I do see a top graduate, I expect to see every green in regulation and every fairway hit...  I first heard of Moe way back in 1995, and through the years of playing golf at a hundred courses, I have never come across a Moe golfer... 

 

That's a pretty tall order. Are you implying that the Moe Norman method is a hoax?

 

On 5/5/2020 at 1:56 AM, EmperorPenguin said:

I have never come across a Moe golfer. I don't mean in a general sense single-plane golfer, but I mean somebody who built a swing with the specific intent on emulating Moe's swing.

 

One local pro and clubsmith is also is a high school coach with generally successful teams. He understands a number of different swing philosophies, and can help players develop to their tendencies. He's not a "one best way" instructor.

 

Among the philosophies, he understands the Norman/Natural Golf philosophy and swing. He says that several golfers have come up with a Normanesque tendencies on their own, and he has helped them to refine the approach.

 

Also, I have come to know another local pro who teaches the Manuel de la Torre method, the Simple Golf Swing. The method is called club-focused instruction, rather than more popular  position-focused instruction in which players worry endlessly about what happens along the way from positions P1 through P10.

 

MdlT is an intuitive approach: swing hands back toward the right shoulder, then swing arms down towards target... and hit the ball! Get the feel. 

[SwingBlues]

Had a really positive round on Saturday...

 

#1 the toe driver hit is gone. Adios. Solution was to tee it more middle but still bias to the heel. I was over cooking it like I thought

 

#2 Been working hard to have less tension on the upper body and also to brace-brace downswing. One massive tip was that my left arm was too high in the back swing as it came into the chest. Once I flattened it, slightly... it really went so on-plane.

 

#3 Hooky swing is managed by the Rod and rotating the left forearm. The forward and side bend and then I set the grip. It a sequence I have to do that in. Started really well and then had a spell of hooky drives that cost me 3 bogeys, and then I found the straight and long drives again by rotating my forearms

 

Still a work in-progress by #2 seems to be the key for me as the club is so much more on-plane.

 

The Tim Graves short game is totally awesome. It's a very much underrated instructions among YouTubers but I find it extremely effective. Extremely. And pressure proof.

Edited June 22, 2021 by SwingBlues

[lenman73]

10 hours ago, SwingBlues said:

Had a really positive round on Saturday...

 

#1 the toe driver hit is gone. Adios. Solution was to tee it more middle but still bias to the heel. I was over cooking it like I thought

 

#2 Been working hard to have less tension on the upper body and also to brace-brace downswing. One massive tip was that my left arm was too high in the back swing as it came into the chest. Once I flattened it, slightly... it really went so on-plane.

 

#3 Hooky swing is managed by the Rod and rotating the left forearm. The forward and side bend and then I set the grip. It a sequence I have to do that in. Started really well and then had a spell of hooky drives that cost me 3 bogeys, and then I found the straight and long drives again by rotating my forearms

 

Still a work in-progress by #2 seems to be the key for me as the club is so much more on-plane.

 

The Tim Graves short game is totally awesome. It's a very much underrated instructions among YouTubers but I find it extremely effective. Extremely. And pressure proof.

Brother, it sounds like our swings could be mirror images.  I look forward to your updates to see what I need to implement into my swing.  Like the lack of upper body tension.  Should have been obvious but I was oblivious to it until you pointed it out. The one thing I noticed while at the driving range Saturday, why my driver was leaving me.  I had to much separation between my trail elbow and body at impact.  So during Sunday's round, I tried to shorten my backswing up a little like Todd suggests but really focused on not having that separation. What do ya know.  So it was nice hitting the big stick solid again. I find while working on so much that if one little piece gets lost in translation, you have to go find it again.  But that's what I personally like about the graves model, is the fact that there is a model and you can try to match it. 

[Jack Harden]

I played with Moe on the Canadian tour in 1973. He did hit it straight but wasn’t long. If you look at Todd Graves, who copied Moe’s swing, he’s a lot bigger and stronger than Moe was. It’s fundamentally an upper body swing. Moe had a very good short game. That’s why he won a lot of Canadian events, which was basically a developmental tour. He never did well against a quality field.  Moe was socially awkward but seemed to have hypnotized himself into having a great desl of confidence.  A quality most golf tournament winners have an abundance of.  He practiced hard, but talked to himself the whole time telling himself how good he was and how he couldn’t miss.  Watching a Todd Graves video it’s obvious he adopted Moe’s contagious enthusiasm for his own method of ball striking.

[SwingBlues]

Had 2 excellent weekend rounds since I last posted. Some notes & lessons learnt:

 

1. Less tension the better. Shorten the back swing. Once the left hip is braced the upper body continues but now I make a point of stopping to keep the hands lower. This one is tricky as it involves the peripheral vision to see the hands lower while the main vision is focused on the  ball.

 

I have the tendency to over rotate the upper, break the left arm so I end up crossing the line which leads to disaster. Also, there is now a short pause to let my arms and hands to "settle" and then I execute to start sequence of my lower body.

 

2....which leads to... been really focusing on the lower body in the backswing and downswing. It's the "Brace & Brace" per Todd's YouTube. Upper does not move until the front is braced. I really want to feel my feet. Then I allow the swing to flow with both feet FEELING stabilized - this one is hard to put into words. Its a feeling. There is a perfect drill that swing back and through and you want to initiate the downswing with the body, stabilize the left bent knee and swing through and reverse. I think Todd calls it's the shoulder to shoulder drill (look it up on YT). It's a back & through full swing drill. Super, super, useful drill

 

3. No more Toe slice with the driver. Got that one sorted out once and for all. Same thing, don't overcook the heel bias at setup.

 

Driving is now back as good but I need to spend more time on my irons. This is the side effect of fixing one club and ignoring the others.

[SwingBlues]

So the story continues guys...

 

I'll share a true story, its kinda funny. I was invited to play in a Scramble Golf Tournament. One of the holes the organizers had invited a Senior Long Driver to hit balls for money for charity. I won't say his name but lets call him "Mr. Florentino". Guy was 6'2 and yeah, he looked like a long driver. I was lucky enough to be next to him at the range stall, he was hitting some nice balls and a few that went right (push fade).

 

So our group came to his station hole. A Par 5. One of the guy bought a few balls for Mr.Florentino to hit but me and my cart bud decide to hit first. I set up in my Graves/Moe set up and drove the ball. The shot was kinda fadey, and it wasn't too bad in the sense it didn't slice out, more on the right rough. It wasn't long, no more than 250 carry.

 

Immediately, Mr. Florentino started to give me his advice.

 

"You know Leadbetter always said the stance width should never be more than a standing width. Yours is too wide. You cannot get off the right foot, so you hang back and as a result you hit it right"

 

"Oh, ok". I replied.

 

Man-o-Man, if there was a definition of biting your tongue, you would find the picture of my face on that page.

 

Nonetheless, I didn't say anything but "Thank You", "Ah ha", "Oh"

 

Look, the guy was there to raise money for charity for the tournament. This was not the place to explain to him who Moe Norman was, 2 plane versus 1 plane...nor time to explain - yeah, there was even a fellow on your Senior LDA Tour with a winning Moe like swing. Nope. Bite my tongue.

 

...and to finish the story. He hits 4 balls. 3 of which went right. right and more right even than mine. 4th was a right one that stayed middle right. We left. On the way off from the tee, he asked us to pick up his balls marked with "Mr. Florentino". So my bud and I went. We found 2 of Mr.Florentino's balls and then we picked up mine. Irony, was that both his balls of his was way right AND shorter than mine. We never found his 3rd shot. Anyway, that hole, we made Eagle on that Par 5 hole after I stuck the 2nd shot to 2 feet of a back pin. Thank you Mr.Tim Graves short game 😎

 

I had a ball that day. The Graves short game was firing on all cylinders.

 

Drives were mostly hot as well. Including one very memorable one that was 288 yards, across a left dogleg that went down and up to an elevated green. The dog leg was protected by mature trees on the corner and you can't see the elevated green from the tee box. My buddy said "hit there". He hit his first and slice it to the fence. I smoked mine, definitely carried over the trees. We got to the green and found the ball next to the green about 13 yards away, pin high, red flag. One chip and 1 putt for bird.

 

I felt the driving good enough to give our team real looks at birdes/eagles. The pins were tough, most of them tucked behind bunkers and the greens undulating, steep rises and being hilly, tough to read most of the times. We scored -6 in the end, definitely left about 4 birdies out there which would have placed...but hey, this is the first time I played that course.

 

I was really appreciative of the invite. Our team was not a dedicated, die hard low cap "winners" team. We had a lady intermediate player, an older gentleman   and may be my cart buddy and I were really the only ones that could hit the ball some distance and carried a somewhat good short and putting game. Hey, it was a fun day for the team, birdies or bogeys...in the end, I thought we did real good as a team, only one bad boy bogey and the rest 1 eagle, birdies and Pars. The teams that beat us were all guys, 2 of them 3 person teams.

 

 

As a side note, it was ironic Todd has just released his videos on side hills lies (ball above and below feet) and that came in SUPER USEFUL on this course. I seriously believe just tweaking my ball position and aim just a tad like he suggested, definitely helped my game that day...

 

So how's the other Grave/Moe swingers doing? Love to hear your progression/stories...

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by SwingBlues

[ron5668]

I tried Jim Hardy's single plane method for consistency 20+ years ago... didn't work out. I'm at a point now where my trail, right side lower back barks too hard playing conventionally. I'm determined to learn single plane for back relief. Graves seems to be the favorite here. Can anyone confirm my choice or recommend another method for the main purpose of reducing back pain? 

Edited August 29, 2021 by ron5668
Better word

[SwingBlues]

4 hours ago, ron5668 said:

I tried Jim Hardy's single plane method for consistency 20+ years ago... didn't work out. I'm at a point now where my trail, right side lower back barks too hard playing conventionally. I'm determined to learn single plane for back relief. Graves seems to be the favorite here. Can anyone confirm my choice or recommend another method for the main purpose of reducing back pain? 

 

Well, it is the Graves/Moe Norman thread after all...

 

I can only speak for myself personally and I had back issues. I still do now but it's NO WAY as bad as it was. Back about the start of this year, was so bad, I could not sit in the drivers seat of my car without padding. I had to use an inversion table (do a search here and there is a great thread about the inversion table and what I was going through back then). I also worked on my hip mobility exercises a lot and still do now, especially before I play

 

As I am typing, I just came back from walking and pushing a cart for 18 holes, up and down a hilly course in Los Angeles and in the 100* heat...- "and I feel great" as the TV ad John Teeter use to say.

 

I feel good because my back feels NORMAL. As stupid as that sounds, there is no pain, there is no need to pop an anti-inflam pill or even to ice.

 

I found & stuck with the Graves swing because it solved the problem that was causing my back issues and effecting my game, the sheering and compression when my body has to make SPACE in a regular golf swing. This manifest itself as the feet getting on the tippy toe at impact and the swing plane becomes very vertical. My swing back then relied on timing and I kept a single digit, abliet higher back then. Just to give you reference, I tried the Clay Ballard swing, on man... the rotation and sheering, I walked off the golf course after 7 holes. I was done and limped back to my car. Enough.

 

I've been working hard on my Graves one plane swing for about a year now and the trail foot down and the setup has really allowed me to resolve my spacing issue. My back is moving as one unit and I can turn my upper torso supported by a stable lower body. Distance is same or better and more consistent contact because my club is on the same plane. My best driver swing feel is like I am hitting it 40% and it's out there at 280+. Effortless.

 

Now, you are going to get a lot of push back from the conventional golfers here because the Moe Norman/Graves thinking is unconventional & different.

 

There is a variance of one plane - Kirk Junge one plane where his lower body is more conventional. I looked at that and it does nothing to resolve my space issue in that swing...hence I am now a Graves golfer.

 

Look, someone else can put similar arguments for Jim Ballard, hes popular here as well Manuel De La Torre as well. Do your research, ask any questions about the Graves or Junge swing here and the folks here can help. Keep in mind, based on my experience, you have to maintain and stretch your back... yoga, inversion table, back exercises, mobility exercises etc...it's not just the golf swing.

 

Feel free to PM me if you have other questions

[nlk10010]

15 hours ago, ron5668 said:

I tried Jim Hardy's single plane method for consistency 20+ years ago... didn't work out. I'm at a point now where my trail, right side lower back barks too hard playing conventionally. I'm determined to learn single plane for back relief. Graves seems to be the favorite here. Can anyone confirm my choice or recommend another method for the main purpose of reducing back pain? 

 

IMO, Jim Hardy's single-plane (the predecessor to his RIT)  is not the same as Graves' (or Junge's). They have some commonality in that the idea is to limit arm rotation to minimize the reliance on timing to get the face square (or almost square) at impact, but the setup of the Graves swing is quite different. It requires you to stand farther from the ball than "normal" and to move down towards the ball in the downswing. You also are required to keep your trail foot down through impact. I think that's why many people think it would be hard on the back, I tried it and while I had some issues striking the ball the swing did not bother my back (which is pretty bad, I'm 71 and have had an arthritic back for quite a while). Junge modifies the stance to allow you to stand closer to the ball and doesn't require you keep your trail foot down.

 

Really, whether a particular swing will be tough on your back is very hard to figure, I guess you have to try it. If you are looking for a different way to swing it's worth a try, at the very least it does increase the chances the club head will be square at impact, but (and this is where I miscalculated) if you can't separate your torso from your pelvis and rotate your hips first then you will still have trouble. I know people who have had success with Paul Wilson's method, it also requires you to rotate but is claimed to be less stressful on the back. I don't particularly like his style but the idea of the body driving the swing (as opposed to the arms) is pretty widespread. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by nlk10010

[ron5668]

You're right about Hardy being dissimilar to Graves. I'm going with Graves. Part of my problem is that at age 67, I try to swing like I'm 21 and pay the price. I work on flexibility which allows me to swing like I'm young but the back barks very hard when compressed. Thanks.

[ron5668]

Thanks SwingBlues. You're right about stretching and the inversion table. I do both, stretches in particular are helpful. I spent the day yesterday slowly eliminating the other names mentioned on this thread and taking notes from some of Graves videos I found here. After not too many reps without a club, I got the bent left knee with pressure in the lower thigh/knee down well enough to add the club. Ulnar deviation, spacing, stance width - got it. The left foot open 30* and both feet mostly down are all crucial I found for the swing to flow. I had no pain. Woke up with minimal discomfort today, but that's better than most mornings. I'm encouraged, but I know it's not that easy. I'll get on his YouTube page and study the grip as well before I hit a ball which should be Tuesday. My elbow bursitis is almost healed...Tuesday should be good enough for ball contact. I'm aware that I can spend hundreds of hours on all of his videos and one view won't always get it absorbed. That's what winter in the DC area will be for. Thanks for the generosity of your time. I'll post my progress.

[scopek]

43 minutes ago, ron5668 said:

You're right about Hardy being dissimilar to Graves. I'm going with Graves. Part of my problem is that at age 67, I try to swing like I'm 21 and pay the price. I work on flexibility which allows me to swing like I'm young but the back barks very hard when compressed. Thanks.

Have you looked into Kirk Junge? He teaches a single plan swing as well. He has tons of YouTube videos if you want to check him out. However I’d recommend joining his site as he provides video reviews as a member. He also has a video on YouTube in which he compares what he teaches vs a Moe Norman type swing. I’d really recommend you search for that and watch it. I can’t speak on the Graves swing but I’ve been trying to decide between Kirk Junge’s approach and Jim Venetos (they are literally completely different, I know) as I’m also looking for a body friendly swing that requires less maintenance. Kirk’s site is Set Up For Impact. For $50 per month you get access to his video content and you can send him swings. I’m most likely going to commit to the Kirk Junge approach and I can say in my reviews and trying different methods I’ve had zero back issues. I’ve also been down the Jim Hardy route…for some reason I also had some physical issues with the one plane swing, even though most people find it easy on the back 🤷Best of luck. 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by scopek

[ron5668]

Thanks for your input scopek, it's much appreciated.

[nlk10010]

45 minutes ago, scopek said:

Have you looked into Kirk Junge? He teaches a single plan swing as well. He has tons of YouTube videos if you want to check him out. However I’d recommend joining his site as he provides video reviews as a member. He also has a video on YouTube in which he compares what he teaches vs a Moe Norman type swing. I’d really recommend you search for that and watch it. I can’t speak on the Graves swing but I’ve been trying to decide between Kirk Junge’s approach and Jim Venetos (they are literally completely different, I know) as I’m also looking for a body friendly swing that requires less maintenance. Kirk’s site is Set Up For Impact. For $50 per month you get access to his video content and you can send him swings. I’m most likely going to commit to the Kirk Junge approach and I can say in my reviews and trying different methods I’ve had zero back issues. I’ve also been down the Jim Hardy route…for some reason I also had some physical issues with the one plane swing, even though most people find it easy on the back 🤷Best of luck.

 

Yes, absolutely, but just be aware of one thing:  Even with Junge, you have to "drive" the swing with body rotation. Kirk explicitly says, in at least one of his videos, that issues arise if you try to swing with the arms. Lag is created with loose wrists as the torso reverses turn. Certainly Junge's approach where you can stand as far from the ball as is comfortable, don't have to keep the trail foot down and aren't required to swing around a bent lead knee (the three main differences from the Graves swing) can be body friendly, but that depends on the individual. It's just that the pivot-driven approach, where you are required to separate the hips/pelvis from the torso, is integral to Kirk's methodology.

[SwingBlues]

5 hours ago, ron5668 said:

Thanks SwingBlues. You're right about stretching and the inversion table. I do both, stretches in particular are helpful. I spent the day yesterday slowly eliminating the other names mentioned on this thread and taking notes from some of Graves videos I found here. After not too many reps without a club, I got the bent left knee with pressure in the lower thigh/knee down well enough to add the club. Ulnar deviation, spacing, stance width - got it. The left foot open 30* and both feet mostly down are all crucial I found for the swing to flow. I had no pain. Woke up with minimal discomfort today, but that's better than most mornings. I'm encouraged, but I know it's not that easy. I'll get on his YouTube page and study the grip as well before I hit a ball which should be Tuesday. My elbow bursitis is almost healed...Tuesday should be good enough for ball contact. I'm aware that I can spend hundreds of hours on all of his videos and one view won't always get it absorbed. That's what winter in the DC area will be for. Thanks for the generosity of your time. I'll post my progress.

 

No worries, if we can get your golfing again whether with Graves, Junge's or whomever is all that matters...life is too short to be sitting at home.

 

The Graves grip is a function of the body tilt and side bend with the  head of the club under the chin. This is DIFFERENT to the conventional swing because the conventional sets the grip first and then set the body. Graves has you set the feet, then forward tilt at the hips and then add the side bent. At this position ulnar deviate and the right arm comes from below with the sunny side up for your underside of your right elbow.

 

The  legs are straight as possible (literally just release after a locked legs - as I call it to my buddy, a slight "pop" and the legs are as straight as can be -just- before locking).

 

I would recommend you start with Todd's "Rethink your swing" YouTube series (6 videos) which best describes Moe's/Todd's swing overall and difference between that and the conventional swing.

 

 

 

Yeah, he has a lot of other play list and all and from what I learnt - just start with the above, its detailed enough to get the ball rolling. Otherwise, if you jump from one video to another you are going to confuse yourself and lose everything because you don't understand the basic and fundamental concepts.

 

Also, what I like with the swing is that I can work a lot of swing at home.

 

For example, get yourself a 5 ft pvc pipe or stick and work on the one piece take away, and then to Position 2. I can work on hip rotation with the trail foot down. One of the best drill is his "shoulder to shoulder" drill which is a full motion swing back and through, back and through. This exercises teaches you to replace one shoulder with another as well as giving you the feel of the stability of the lower body and sequencing

 

Since everyone is talking Academy, Todd has either a Silver or Gold Membership ($55 a month). Silver gets you access to his libraries of Single Plane Swing content as well as Tim Graves short games/bunker (which is EXCELLENT). The Gold membership adds another layer that includes unlimited video submission and reviews of your swing with his coaches as well as building a 9 month plan. His library content is VERY. VERY GOOD I have to say.... much better than what he has out for free. As well, if you are a Gold member he has a monthly webinar where Todd and his brother, Tim, and his top coaches like Rusty and Trent, take questions from the webinar audience...it's a lot of fun and interactive.

 

I tried Gold for 3 months because I got all his YouTube stuff but I wanted the details of his swing aka magic sauce. I got what I needed and with a Amazon tripod, a cell phone holder I can review my own swing, see all the BAD and GOOD <--- that is key if you are going to work on your own. Video your swing, and use the V1 Golf app to draw lines and see what the arm and body is doing. Don't be one of those that think they can feel what the heck they are doing because what you feel is not what your body is doing especially if you are beginner.

 

As Todd says Feedback, whether you use your own camera, friend or his school, is important so that you practice right.

[ron5668]

Thank you. I'll start with the 6 videos. I agree that video of my swing is important. Thanks  

[scopek]

4 hours ago, nlk10010 said:

 

Yes, absolutely, but just be aware of one thing:  Even with Junge, you have to "drive" the swing with body rotation. Kirk explicitly says, in at least one of his videos, that issues arise if you try to swing with the arms. Lag is created with loose wrists as the torso reverses turn. Certainly Junge's approach where you can stand as far from the ball as is comfortable, don't have to keep the trail foot down and aren't required to swing around a bent lead knee (the three main differences from the Graves swing) can be body friendly, but that depends on the individual. It's just that the pivot-driven approach, where you are required to separate the hips/pelvis from the torso, is integral to Kirk's methodology.

Yes, that’s my impression as well…lag has always been a sticky point for me. Kirk so far hasn’t said anything in my reviews about lag yet… it’s all been about being on plane and what my impact looks like. I honestly would rather go for more of a Stricker like swing which I think he’d be ok with. But, yes, you’re correct about the body movements he teaches. But I still find it’s easy on the body. I really admire Grave’s swing but keeping that right foot down would be bad for my right knee. I experimented with Jim Venetos’s swing as that literally has no body rotation but it’s too far away from conventional teaching and I’m not sure I can commit to that…l you’re right that Kirk is really conventional in many ways which I suppose I like. But like you said everyone is different and they have to find what works best for them 

[nlk10010]

Yes, my real point is that I have found (emphasis on the I) that unless I rotate my pelvis and drag the arms around I will hang back, fat it and/or manipulate the club. Whatever the specific reason, I end up not being able to hit a 7-iron more than, say, 120 yards and suffer from all sorts of inconsistencies. I looked towards Grave, or Junge, or whomever, hoping that their approach would allow me to play reasonable golf without requiring that the hip/torso drive the swing. They didn't, all the ones I tried either explicitly or implicitly require that same rotation. They may or may not emphasize it, but it's there. Perhaps Venetos doesn't, perhaps Larry Rinker's upper-core swing doesn't, I don't know. So I've committed myself to a method that emphasizes you learn the rotation, so far my arthritic back hasn't bothered me as much as it's just made that rotation extremely difficult to achieve. It's a work in progress. 

 

But no method I've tried to date allowed me to avoid making pelvis rotation the main objective in the downswing. Probably has to do with the fact I took up golf for real late in life and am used to using my arms and shoulders to swing. At this point I can't unlearn that.

Edited August 29, 2021 by nlk10010

[scopek]

1 hour ago, nlk10010 said:

Yes, my real point is that I have found (emphasis on the I) that unless I rotate my pelvis and drag the arms around I will hang back, fat it and/or manipulate the club. Whatever the specific reason, I end up not being able to hit a 7-iron more than, say, 120 yards and suffer from all sorts of inconsistencies. I looked towards Grave, or Junge, or whomever, hoping that their approach would allow me to play reasonable golf without requiring that the hip/torso drive the swing. They didn't, all the ones I tried either explicitly or implicitly require that same rotation. They may or may not emphasize it, but it's there. Perhaps Venetos doesn't, perhaps Larry Rinker's upper-core swing doesn't, I don't know. So I've committed myself to a method that emphasizes you learn the rotation, so far my arthritic back hasn't bothered me as much as it's just made that rotation extremely difficult to achieve. It's a work in progress. 

 

But no method I've tried to date allowed me to avoid making pelvis rotation the main objective in the downswing. Probably has to do with the fact I took up golf for real late in life and am used to using my arms and shoulders to swing. At this point I can't unlearn that.

Copy that. If you really want to have no rotation then check out Venetos. That’s literally his emphasis. I did a lot of research on it and I’m convinced he’s legit and a lot of people have really done well with his method. BUT it’s not something you can just play around with… one really needs to commit and be prepared for ups and downs. 

[RhinoRhinoGolf]

On 9/9/2020 at 9:24 AM, garyt said:

 

Plus he changed his swing quite a bit over the years. His original swing looked way more conventional. He changed a lot up to conform to natural Golf rules when they signed him. And still he striped it. Which is why I say it was Moe that was special, not the swing.

The only thing I saw Moe change before and after Natural Golf was his grip.  He went from overlapping to baseball grip.  Also saw him use an interlocking grip frequently before Natural Golf.  There were some other slight adjustments, like more leaning at address, as his weight fluctuated; but the fundamentals never changed.

[dlow206]

I am less than a month in on the Kirk Junge Setup 4 Impact. Swing feels pretty natural to me, but still have some things to work on. The Kirk Junge one plane swing just clicks with my brain better than a two plane swing.

 

 

[Jumpman1231]

On 1/17/2021 at 2:25 AM, Jumpman1231 said:

Just came across this thread looking up something else. Read all the comments and figured I’d share my own thoughts. I’ve always been good enough at golf but not as good as I want to be. In my mind I always thought if I found the time to practice I could really improve. Since high school I’ve played about the same level 90 average below good day above bad day. However I was always very inconsistent where I could go 40 then 50 to get that 90 ha! Finally this summer we decided we wanted to create an annual golf event to have 20 of our closest friends and family throughout the years gather for a 10 vs 10 Ryder cup style tournament. This gave me the motivation to start working on my game. So for the first time really ever i started to hit the range almost daily. Also started to play almost weekly. I also spent my nights watching golf videos and then would take that to try things out at the range. A couple months into this I started feeling like I was on the verge of consistency and becoming a mid 80’s guy which was my goal by our tourney time. Then out of no where I started shanking every iron from pw-4!! To the point I couldn’t hit the ball anymore and my own kids were laughing hysterically for good reason when we’d go to the range!  With the tournament coming up I tried everything I could find on YouTube and other places and nothing helped... then after seeing Bryson I stumbled upon Todd graves and now Norman single plane things. Out of desperation for any kind of fix I tried it out. The next day on the range I actually hit some irons properly. So I played with it a little more and saw more success. So I decided to go all in and watch all the videos and practice nothing but single plane in hopes I’d be back to what I used to be again. (as I’d began shooting over 100 for the first time that I can remember) by the time the tournament came I was able to shoot upper 80’s 5 of the 6 rounds and was happy with the progress. That was in august and now I’ve been using single plane since then. At the time of the tournament I was a 17 handicap and as of January I’m a 12.7. I’ve become much more consistent in my scoring and my miss hits are now still useable shots. My last two full 18 rounds i shot an 81 and 83. There has also been discussions around loss of distance. I’ve never been terribly long but I used to regularly drive it 280-290. If I tried and max out and hit it well I could get    310-320.  Before getting those distances with my driver I would lose 5-6 balls a round.  Now I’m able to get the same distances regularly but by staying with the limitations this swing sets for my body I can swing even harder when I try and go for it and have a much better chance of keeping it in bounds. Even had one go 350 this season which never happened before. I typically lose at most 1-2 drives a round now. I also used to scoop with my irons and now I have an actual negative attack angle which I gave up on ever achieving. So for me I love where my game is heading and hope to hit single digit handicap this year! I have two sons that are teenagers and one uses a conventional and one uses single plane. I don’t try and push anyone to do single plane as I don’t think it’s for everyone. However it has helped me a lot... now if I could just make a few putts 70’s are calling my name!

Update from previous post…. This year I finally hit a life goal of achieving single digits with the moe Norman graves version of single plane!!

[MPStrat]

Over the last couple years I have played with two different Moe/Graves followers. Neither were athletic specimens. The first spent years taking lessons from Graves and the second told me he attended several clinics and invested in some online instruction. The first was a 60-ish year old male, average size. He played with an open stance and hit draws. Drove it very accurately and around 240-250 total. I don’t think he missed a fairway. Hit irons like 12 handicap. The second was all in on the single plane thing. Hit it short and crooked.  

[tm3]

On 6/26/2021 at 1:27 AM, Jack Harden said:

 He practiced hard, but talked to himself the whole time telling himself how good he was and how he couldn’t miss.  

Good story, and reminds me of one I heard of the great Ted Williams.  During batting practice, the whole time he was in he would say out loud between pitches, "I'm Ted effing Williams, and nobody can strike me out!"