Has Anyone Ever Come Across A Moe Student Or Graves Golf Academy Pupil?

[ChaosTheory]

I spent a lot of time watching videos and in discussions trying to figure out the face angle when setting the club back.  I felt like I was analyzing the Zapruder film.  One thing is that even Todd G does not always do exactly what he says he does.  I have a few screen captures of his actual swings that show differences in setup from what he teaches. Specifically the supposed straight line up the lead arm.  Which makes me feel better because I don't want a true straight line there either.

 

Best I could tell, the face is usually square to the backswing arc, not the target line.  In the end, you have to find the way that works for you.

I only set the club back significantly with the driver, and even then it's only about 6 inches.  The others, maybe an inch or so. 

[SwingBlues]

2 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

I spent a lot of time watching videos and in discussions trying to figure out the face angle when setting the club back.  I felt like I was analyzing the Zapruder film.  One thing is that even Todd G does not always do exactly what he says he does.  I have a few screen captures of his actual swings that show differences in setup from what he teaches. Specifically the supposed straight line up the lead arm.  Which makes me feel better because I don't want a true straight line there either.

 

Best I could tell, the face is usually square to the backswing arc, not the target line.  In the end, you have to find the way that works for you.

I only set the club back significantly with the driver, and even then it's only about 6 inches.  The others, maybe an inch or so. 

 

Zapruder film, lol...

 

I've not seen any difference in Todd's left arm when it comes to the full swing. To me, it seems pretty consistent with Moe. If you have something, screenshot it out and let's take a look.  I think when it comes to the left arm, it's straight-"ish", not locked.

 

Curious, Snowman, do you also setup the club head bias to the heel?

 

Not sure if Junge teaches this, or even BDC setup with this bias

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by SwingBlues

[ChaosTheory]

@SwingBlues

No I don't bias to the heel.   I must not be turning enough to create the extra space that requires it.

[SEP1006]

5 hours ago, SwingBlues said:

 

Zapruder film, lol...

 

I've not seen any difference in Todd's left arm when it comes to the full swing. To me, it seems pretty consistent with Moe. If you have something, screenshot it out and let's take a look.  I think when it comes to the left arm, it's straight-"ish", not locked.

 

Curious, Snowman, do you also setup the club head bias to the heel?

 

Not sure if Junge teaches this, or even BDC setup with this bias

 

 

 

I don't believe Junge teaches the club head bias to the heel in the set up. 

 

I know BDC doesn't, he generally sets up with the ball on the toe side.

 

Curious to see the videos/pictures Snowman9000 posts referring to the inconsistency he sees.

 

 

 

 

 

[SEP1006]

19 hours ago, SwingBlues said:

 

Zapruder film, lol...

 

I've not seen any difference in Todd's left arm when it comes to the full swing. To me, it seems pretty consistent with Moe. If you have something, screenshot it out and let's take a look.  I think when it comes to the left arm, it's straight-"ish", not locked.

 

Curious, Snowman, do you also setup the club head bias to the heel?

 

Not sure if Junge teaches this, or even BDC setup with this bias

 

 

 

@Snowman9000 has a point. Look at the 6:38 mark in this video. Just happen to come across this while watching this morning.

 

 

 

 

[ChaosTheory]

@SEP1006  Yes, you will see it many times because that's the way he swings.  I personally do much better with some angle between the lead arm and club shaft.  I think it has to do with how my lower body moves.  

 

Here's Moe with a wedge, and then a longer club.   On the wedge he has the angle, on the longer club, he does not.

 

 

 

I think my screen shots of Todd are on my other PC, which is in the closet waiting for me to get around to transferring files.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Snowman9000

[ChaosTheory]

[SEP1006]

2 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

@SEP1006  Yes, you will see it many times because that's the way he swings.  I personally do much better with some angle between the lead arm and club shaft.  I think it has to do with how my lower body moves.  

 

Here's Moe with a wedge, and then a longer club.   On the wedge he has the angle, on the longer club, he does not.

 

 

 

I think my screen shots of Todd are on my other PC, which is in the closet waiting for me to get around to transferring files.

 

I do keep my lead arm "locked" on all my shots. Definitely works better for me when doing that 

 

I am also still keeping the majority of my weight on my lead leg from set up, through the backswing and then following through staying centered over the lead knee.

 

Been absolutely flushing my Driver and 3wd. Irons are still a work on progress but showing improvement for sure. Had the ball position a little off as well as maybe being a little to bent over at the waist.

 

Bought a IPOD stick today so I can start taking some video to see what is ACTUALLY happening. Instead of what I THINK is happening.

 

 

 

 

 

[SwingBlues]

2 hours ago, SEP1006 said:

 

@Snowman9000 has a point. Look at the 6:38 mark in this video. Just happen to come across this while watching this morning.

 

 

 

Couple of things going on here.

 

The context of this video is rehearsing & hitting the position at the top. From the 6:00 mark, all he is doing is rehearsing this multiple times and pausing. So his emphasis is more at what he calls Position 2 at the top to feel the club is on-plane and not too vertical nor too flat

 

The second thing is that the video camera is moving from front on to down the line.

 

This makes tough to judge.

 

So I captured this just before he struck the ball, you can see the time stamp

 

While the camera is still not perfect since it looks like it's half way between front on and DTL, you can note

1. His left arm straightish

2. Ulnar deviation

3. Side bend with right shoulder lower

 

Club grip should be pointed at the outer left rib or close to it. At best, it looks like the red club line It does not appear he has this centered like a typical swing

 

 I think overall, Todd is pretty consistent here. When I mentioned he is sometimes different, I meant the release of Moe and the path of the club post impact.

 

@SEP1006 check out the "Rethink" YT series from Todd, there's about 6 or 7 videos. A lot of great info there as well

 

[SEP1006]

5 hours ago, SwingBlues said:

 

Couple of things going on here.

 

The context of this video is rehearsing & hitting the position at the top. From the 6:00 mark, all he is doing is rehearsing this multiple times and pausing. So his emphasis is more at what he calls Position 2 at the top to feel the club is on-plane and not too vertical nor too flat

 

The second thing is that the video camera is moving from front on to down the line.

 

This makes tough to judge.

 

So I captured this just before he struck the ball, you can see the time stamp

 

While the camera is still not perfect since it looks like it's half way between front on and DTL, you can note

1. His left arm straightish

2. Ulnar deviation

3. Side bend with right shoulder lower

 

Club grip should be pointed at the outer left rib or close to it. At best, it looks like the red club line It does not appear he has this centered like a typical swing

 

 I think overall, Todd is pretty consistent here. When I mentioned he is sometimes different, I meant the release of Moe and the path of the club post impact.

 

@SEP1006 check out the "Rethink" YT series from Todd, there's about 6 or 7 videos. A lot of great info there as well

 

 

 

I've seen a couple of the "rethink" videos for sure. Will have to go back and review again.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by SEP1006

[SwingBlues]

3 hours ago, SEP1006 said:

 

 

I've seen a couple of the "rethink" videos for sure. Will have to go back and review again.

 

 

👍 I just got my Stealth2+ today...

 

 

and I just air installed another JumboMax STR9 UL xs grip on it - this time without any tape. Let's see how it goes.

 

Thanks for hooking me up with this method, it's been a God Sent for sure and so, so easy to adjust and readjust on a whim

 

Luv it 👍👍👍

Edited February 17, 2023 by SwingBlues

[SEP1006]

10 hours ago, SwingBlues said:

 

👍 I just got my Stealth2+ today...

 

 

and I just air installed another JumboMax STR9 UL xs grip on it - this time without any tape. Let's see how it goes.

 

Thanks for hooking me up with this method, it's been a God Sent for sure and so, so easy to adjust and readjust on a whim

 

Luv it 👍👍👍

 

Anytime and back atcha for the help with the Graves swing. Good luck with the Stealth and let us know how it goes.

 

Finally videoed a few swings yesterday to see how close I was to the standard. As usual "feel is not real" but I wasn't to far off. My set up actually looked pretty good. But was starting the backswing mostly with my arms and not rotating. Also as you know I'm coming from the BDC swing which is a much taller stance and upright back swing. My back swing was about half-way between the BDC and the Graves model.

 

Funny thing is I have been "smokin" my Driver and 3wd. Irons are showing progress as well. Hopefully as I get closer to the model everything will get even better.

 

So back to putting in some work today on the course this afternoon. Really excited to keep this going as even my bad shots are really right in front of me.

 

Still fight the OVER THE TOP a few times but have been fighting that for years. Stems from not finishing my back swing and starting the transition to soon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ewaldbeukes]

Hi guys, I think I saw this on ine of the threads… is there something that helps you determine more or less how far from the ball you should be through the bag? 
 

Got some feedback on my swing and distance away from ball was a key change. I have been standing very upright because if my back pain so its a touch change… but it was indicated I should be about 25/26 inches away with a mid iron. Any thoughts on a driver / wood and similarily a wedge?

[SwingBlues]

44 minutes ago, ewaldbeukes said:

Hi guys, I think I saw this on ine of the threads… is there something that helps you determine more or less how far from the ball you should be through the bag? 
 

Got some feedback on my swing and distance away from ball was a key change. I have been standing very upright because if my back pain so its a touch change… but it was indicated I should be about 25/26 inches away with a mid iron. Any thoughts on a driver / wood and similarily a wedge?

 

The rule of thumb is around 26" from the ball to the back of heel for a iron. But I do not pay too much attention to this since we are all different body types and abilities to bend forward etc.

 

However, my experience is that it's more important to have the club shaft come through your middle of the back along the right hand plane line. Another words if I took a picture of you down the line and draw a line from the club head, up the shaft, it should skewer you through the middle of the back.

 

I have noticed the taller players or those who do not have enough forward lean at setup, this line tends to skewer to the upper back/shoulder, there by sets a more vertical plane.

 

So check this out, Chandler Rusk is a former Graves Director of Instructions. He's going his own way now but essentially, it's the same SPS like Moe abliet with more "relaxed" modelling.

 

 

 

This now brings me to another topic, I have no idea your height but Tim Graves does offer FREE CLUB fitting to the SPS

 

You can check it out here: https://gravesgolf.com/free-club-fitting/

 

Only catch is that you provide them an email but you also end up getting a ton of marketing crap from them so don't use your regular personal email.

 

The positive side is that Tim's very spot on. My fitting with him was great and the length and lie is spot on. I fit into "standard" for most OEM irons but for Cobra Forged Tec X irons that I game, I had to have them bent 2* flatter to fit my spec. I tested the irons using the dynamic lie test on the range and it's spot on, middle of the face, line vertical.

 

Hope this helps

Edited February 17, 2023 by SwingBlues

[morphy]

18 minutes ago, SwingBlues said:

 I fit into "standard" for most OEM irons but for Cobra Forged Tec X irons that I game, I had to have them bent 2* flatter to fit my spec. I tested the irons using the dynamic lie test on the range and it's spot on, middle of the face, line vertical.

 

Allow me to jump in. I found that quote rather interesting. I've always assumed that because the SPS results in a more upright (heel up, toe down) club lie - it should result in a more upright fit not flatter. Or am I wrong in my assumptions?

[ChaosTheory]

8 minutes ago, morphy said:

Allow me to jump in. I found that quote rather interesting. I've always assumed that because the SPS results in a more upright (heel up, toe down) club lie - it should result in a more upright fit not flatter. Or am I wrong in my assumptions?

Depends on the golfer.  I’m 1 degree up.  Moe was flat.

[SwingBlues]

15 minutes ago, morphy said:

Allow me to jump in. I found that quote rather interesting. I've always assumed that because the SPS results in a more upright (heel up, toe down) club lie - it should result in a more upright fit not flatter. Or am I wrong in my assumptions?

 

I've not come across any SPS that specifies/models a heel up/toe down lie angle of the club as far as I know and seen.

 

The setup, Moe/Graves/Rusk is the ulnar deviation which does place the hands in a higher impact like position but it also has forward bend and the feel is more of a slight reach (as compared to the 2PS arms hang down).

 

Take a look at the "Rethink" series from Todd on YT, I think it's Part 1 and 2 as he steps through his book at explains the setup

 

@Snowman9000 is right, it depends on the golfer. I am 5'9, wrist to floor is 34" so Tim recommended 60.5* and 38.25" 5 iron and graduating from there.

Edited February 17, 2023 by SwingBlues

[morphy]

3 minutes ago, SwingBlues said:

 

I've not come across any SPS that specifies/models a heel up/toe down lie angle of the club as far as I know and seen.

 

The setup, Moe/Graves/Rusk is the ulnar deviation which does place the hands in a higher impact like position but it also has forward bend and the feel is more of a slight reach (as compared to the 2PS arms hang down).

 

Take a look at the "Rethink" series from Todd on YT, I think it's Part 1 and 2 as he steps through his book at explains the setup

 

@Snowman9000 is right, it depends on the golfer. I am 5'9, wrist to floor is 34" so Tim recommended 60.5* and 38.25" 5 iron and graduating from there.

Ya that makes sense. With the 2PS, the setup and impact are different. What matters is what the lie is at impact not setup. I was going with the 2PS setup as the measuring rod.

[SEP1006]

On 2/17/2023 at 12:25 PM, SwingBlues said:

The rule of thumb is around 26" from the ball to the back of heel for a iron. But I do not pay too much attention to this since we are all different body types and abilities to bend forward etc.

 

However, my experience is that it's more important to have the club shaft come through your middle of the back along the right hand plane line. Another words if I took a picture of you down the line and draw a line from the club head, up the shaft, it should skewer you through the middle of the back.

 

Just out of curiosity I measured with my 6i. I am 6'-1" and 26" from heel to ball is definitely too upright for me. Put the shaft running through the back of my neck.

 

Will have to keep the "middle of my back" visual going for when I play this afternoon.

 

 

 

 

[ewaldbeukes]

Thanks for all the inputs guys...

 

I found this that has been helpful... I took a steel ruler and marked the numbers out and been toying with it. Driver and Fairway feels a touch far (but I play shorter woods so have come in an inch or so) rest seems fine...

 

[ewaldbeukes]

So I did the free lesson with Graves online and was implementing some of the suggestions on the range today. Basically focused on getting measured off correctly, bending more from the waist and then getting my left arm in the right place with ulnar deviation set at address. Can feel that that's on a good track... was just wondering, I feel much more shallow which is good... However, catching loads of them a groove low. I have barely started working on this so I know the right answer is patience and practice but just wondering if this is something that others also experienced? 

[ChaosTheory]

2 hours ago, ewaldbeukes said:

So I did the free lesson with Graves online and was implementing some of the suggestions on the range today. Basically focused on getting measured off correctly, bending more from the waist and then getting my left arm in the right place with ulnar deviation set at address. Can feel that that's on a good track... was just wondering, I feel much more shallow which is good... However, catching loads of them a groove low. I have barely started working on this so I know the right answer is patience and practice but just wondering if this is something that others also experienced? 

Yes absolutely.  

[ChaosTheory]

I am getting an in person lesson tomorrow with Chandler Rusk.  My goal is to see what it will take to undo the various compensations I’ve built into my swing over the years.

 

It’s all a chicken or egg situation, I’m no longer sure what came first.  But, I don’t side bend as much as the model, and I don’t set the club back, and so I fight an outside in plane.  But to Ewalds previous question, my strikes got better this way.  But path got worse.

[SEP1006]

21 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

I am getting an in person lesson tomorrow with Chandler Rusk.  My goal is to see what it will take to undo the various compensations I’ve built into my swing over the years.

 

It’s all a chicken or egg situation, I’m no longer sure what came first.  But, I don’t side bend as much as the model, and I don’t set the club back, and so I fight an outside in plane.  But to Ewalds previous question, my strikes got better this way.  But path got worse.

 

Where are you at in Texas? And is Chandler based there or just happens to be there for a clinic or something?

 

 

 

 

 

[ChaosTheory]

4 hours ago, SEP1006 said:

 

Where are you at in Texas? And is Chandler based there or just happens to be there for a clinic or something?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm in north Texas.  We were going to meet halfway, in OK.  But I came down with something last night so the lesson is postponed.  😞

 

He lives in Edmond on the north side of OKC.  I wonder how many golfers he would need to justify spending a day in DFW.  I have a golf buddy here who wants to see him.   But it's a 5 hour drive for you to get here.

[SEP1006]

8 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

 

I'm in north Texas.  We were going to meet halfway, in OK.  But I came down with something last night so the lesson is postponed.  😞

 

He lives in Edmond on the north side of OKC.  I wonder how many golfers he would need to justify spending a day in DFW.  I have a golf buddy here who wants to see him.   But it's a 5 hour drive for you to get here.

 

Yeh 5 hrs for sure the way I-45 is. Not that it wouldn't help but 8 - 10hrs on I-45 isn't worth a golf lesson.

 

Well hope you get to feeling better and the lesson goes well. Be sure to let us know how it goes.

 

 

[SwingBlues]

On 2/16/2023 at 7:27 AM, Snowman9000 said:

@SEP1006  Yes, you will see it many times because that's the way he swings.  I personally do much better with some angle between the lead arm and club shaft.  I think it has to do with how my lower body moves.  

 

Here's Moe with a wedge, and then a longer club.   On the wedge he has the angle, on the longer club, he does not.

 

 

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I think my screen shots of Todd are on my other PC, which is in the closet waiting for me to get around to transferring files.

 

That's one of my favorite Moe videos, "use the knees", Best advice, ever.

 

One comment here in regards to angle. Moe's wedge shot & Tim Graves teaches this too, his club is closer to the body which you can see in other videos so he does not ulnar deviate as much like in his longer club

 

As well, there no heel bias either as Tim says, these are finesse shots so you aren't loading as much. Ball is in the middle of club

 

The bigger point is not the angle but Moe short backswing to long finish with his wedge game. Accelerating. Again this concurs with Tim Graves teaching.

 

At the end of the days, its a model but sometimes our body doesn't quite fit the model & we tweak it a bit, that's OK too

 

Hope this helps

 

 

[SwingBlues]

Follow up from my prior post…. Tim explains

 

 

[ewaldbeukes]

I am really working well with the swing changes using available videos on youtube. The principles have been easy to distill. However, not winning with the short game as much? Any good links to videos / content discussing the changes for chipping, pitching, bunker play to pick up the principles.

[ChaosTheory]

2 hours ago, ewaldbeukes said:

I am really working well with the swing changes using available videos on youtube. The principles have been easy to distill. However, not winning with the short game as much? Any good links to videos / content discussing the changes for chipping, pitching, bunker play to pick up the principles.

Some ramblings…

 

I think Tim Graves short game is very conventional, nothing particularly different related to the full swing.  It’s an older school way of playing the ball back.

 

Playing the ball back with an open stance works for me because it lets me lean the shaft forward.  But through the ball on the target line, the shaft will be effectively vertical.   If you open the stance, the clubface, and lean the shaft, all by 15 degrees for example, you’ll see that the ball will relate it all to be square with full bounce.

 

If I need to flop it, I open more and move the ball forward.  But from the swing standpoint my hands are still ahead of the ball.

 

 I haven’t found any of the SA short game instructions to be particularly unique or proprietary, so I browse all of the general teaching to see what might fit.  I’ll look for my favorites and my notes to see if I can offer anything worth looking at.