Root cause of EE ; and having to 'come out' (and other faults) as a compensation

[PracticeSwinger]

Hi guys,

 

A few swings below (I know : crappy videos practicing at night, camera angle and no face on views)... help me work on that swing ; winter coming and having plenty of time to adjust (hopefully) at the range and indoors before hitting the links again...

 

Any feedback is appreciated - I'm seeing : bent over at setup / not getting deep enough with right hip initially (causing left hip to slide in) / too long of a backswing / cupped left wrist at top causing improper right wrist flex / trail leg jumping (sliding) at the ball in transition (EE) causing pull out move (losing primary tilt) and minor OTT and/or flips needed to close the clubface at impact... Anyhow - I'm searching for the root cause; any major trigger that you see - causing the ripple effect of all compensations afterwards... thanks in advance!

[jholz]

I was just posting about this recently. I'm developing the opinion that EE is really, at its root and especially for me, a balance compensation for folks who are too bent over and have a tendency to get out on their toes. Most of the time its described as a compensation related to getting the club head on the ball - which is true - but I think that explanation hides the true cause - the body trying to maintain balance. 

 

For me, working on keeping my balance centered over my feet and letting the swing happen out in front of me has really helped. This is merely a theory, so take it with a grain of salt. 

[PracticeSwinger]

11 minutes ago, jholz said:

... a balance compensation for folks who are too bent over

Interestingly enough - lots of my buddies are telling me I look like I'm 'covering' my clubs... I'm 6'5" and was fitted for 1 1/2in longer clubs - but still... also, a few strangers telling me (when matched up) that I have a DJ lookalike takeaway (but they quickly figure out that it's all there is hehe)

 

 

[jholz]

At least in my experience, it wasn't a matter necessarily of being too bent over, but rather not bent over in the right way, if you know what I mean. More knee, less waist. It's just a slight shift in posture and weighting.

 

This has enabled me to establish a solid balanced position over my feet at address and I can maintain that centeredness and my posture through the swing. If I was out on my toes, my body would have to react and change my posture to keep me upright. Now with my weight centered, I don't have to do that. 

 

This is how I'm rationalizing it and it makes sense to me. YMMV.  

 

Just remember I'm just a self taught hack trying to dig it out of the dirt. If you really want to address your issues, a trained PGA Professional is always going to be your best bet. 

[PracticeSwinger]

4 hours ago, jholz said:

This has enabled me to establish a solid balanced position over my feet at address and I can maintain that centeredness and my posture through the swing. If I was out on my toes, my body would have to react and change my posture to keep me upright. Now with my weight centered, I don't have to do that.

This is what I’m striving for; balanced and centered... deep right hip (without sway) in the backswing ; keeping primary and secondary tilts... deep left hip in the downswing while maintaining tilt and right leg not running/swaying in - clearly not getting that part yet (hopefully)

[golfho50]

Swing looks good. Only thing i notice is you are standing a bit far from ball and if your arms hang straight down (with irons) might help.

[PracticeSwinger]

56 minutes ago, golfho50 said:

Swing looks good. Only thing i notice is you are standing a bit far from ball and if your arms hang straight down (with irons) might help.

Thanks for the feedback - I do have a hard time finding the sweet spot distance wise from the ball (from club to club) : something to work on for sure

[A.Princey]

Your upper body seems to outrace your lower half. You do resemble DJ on the way back, but if you watch his move at the ball, he clears his hips so fast on the way down. His belt buckle is pointed down the target line almost 2ft before impact. As with most players, the main issue is posture and from the hips down. EE is almost always a culprit of "steering" the club, needing to feel your hands control the head into impact, rather than allowing them to release into the ball naturally. I EE as well, but have come to accept it as my distance and consistency is where I need it to be. Good luck, man!

Edited October 16, 2020 by A.Princey

[pktaske]

Your stance looks closed...but hard to really tell if it is and also if its causing you any harm.

 

What actually is your problem that plays out on the course?

 

 

[glk]

Not getting right hip deep enough - essentially you are moving the center of your pelvis closer to the ball in the backswing and It continues this in the downswing.   
 

you may or may not share the same issues as the guy in this video but you are moving your pelvis toward the target in the backswing setting up the ee.

 

you have a stall/ flip release pattern due to the lack of rotation.

 

improving knee/ hip motion is first step along with getting some better angles - side bend.    Face on would tell more about transition and length of arm swing - appears it might be a bit long.

you kinda got it in your summary   Best go find a good instructor to help you work thru it.

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

7 hours ago, A.Princey said:

Your upper body seems to outrace your lower half. You do resemble DJ on the way back, but if you watch his move at the ball, he clears his hips so fast on the way down. [...] EE is almost always a culprit of "steering" the club, needing to feel your hands control the head into impact, rather than allowing them to release into the ball naturally.

Thanks for the feedback - good observations - and having looked at DJ's swing he's definitely clearing it fast and early : not sure I can or want to go that extreme - but definitely something to work on... and it trickles down to being handsy/flip release, great analysis

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, pktaske said:

Your stance looks closed...but hard to really tell if it is and also if its causing you any harm.

 

What actually is your problem that plays out on the course?

 

 

It is closed - with ball a little back in the stance to try and ensure a draw pattern : definitely a band aid to fight my 'natural EE'/OTT to avoid weak slices (also causing the handsy/flip release)

 

No big problem 'strike wise' on course (I'm a 9 index for reference without a strong short game)... but rather embarqing on a journey to try and undo that no depth/EE/OTT swing and develop a steady draw pattern that would eliminate the possible double misses (mainly with driver) : straight pull and fade/slice that can kill a hole/round 

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, glk said:

Not getting right hip deep enough - essentially you are moving the center of your pelvis closer to the ball in the backswing and It continues this in the downswing.   
 

you may or may not share the same issues as the guy in this video but you are moving your pelvis toward the target in the backswing setting up the ee.

 

you have a stall/ flip release pattern due to the lack of rotation.

 

improving knee/ hip motion is first step along with getting some better angles - side bend.    Face on would tell more about transition and length of arm swing - appears it might be a bit long.

you kinda got it in your summary   Best go find a good instructor to help you work thru it.

 

 

 

Thanks for the analysis - always detailed and well explained - I really appreciate that you take the time (seen many of your posts on others swing also)

 

I had seen that video and agree completely, I do have that issue and I'm trying to work on it (as it triggers all the other faults/compensations afterwards)... I'm seeing an instructor this weekend (good buddy and PGA certified) looking forward to see what feels/drills he wants me to work on - I've 'self-tried' the : Malaska both hips going back + medecine ball between the legs drills... definitely feels weird to me (but I know I need to go that route on that journey to undo whats ingrained in my swing)... 1% better right?

Edited October 16, 2020 by MtlJayMan

[glk]

2 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

Thanks for the analysis - always detailed and well explained - I really appreciate that you take the time (seen many of your posts on others swing also)

 

I had seen that video and agree completely, I do have that issue and I'm trying to work on it (as it triggers all the other faults/compensations afterwards)... I'm seeing an instructor this weekend (good buddy and PGA certified) looking forward to see what feels/drills he wants me to work on - I've 'self-tried' the : Malaska both hips going back + medecine ball between the legs drills... definitely feels weird to me (but I know I need to go that route on that journey to undo whats ingrained in my swing)... 1% better right?

Yep.    I found that improving a flaw without trying to perfect it then working another piece builds a good motion over time - and you find yourself making small adjustments that improve things even more - you already have a good pattern just needs focused refinements.

 

i find the intent to get the right butt cheek turning toward the target can help with getting good hip depth along with getting the left knee working out toward the toes and allow rotation to bring it slightly inward - also helps you synch left side bend with this motion - left hip works down supports getting good left tilt.

Edited October 16, 2020 by glk

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, glk said:

i find the intent to get the right butt cheek turning toward the target can help with getting good hip depth along with getting the left knee working out toward the toes and allow rotation to bring it slightly inward - also helps you synch left side bend with this motion - left hip works down supports getting good left tilt.

Interesting and I'll work on that - cause, in an effort to keep secondary tilt, my intent is to try and keep the right butt check from turning towards the target; and just get deep back (without swaying obvisouly)... my present intent is probably causing more harm than good; cause I feel that to have good left tilt, my lead knee collapse inward (and not towards my toes) - hence the center of the pelvis getting closer to the ball; EE to compensate... interesting stuff to work on!

[glk]

1 minute ago, MtlJayMan said:

Interesting and I'll work on that - cause, in an effort to keep secondary tilt, my intent is to try and keep the right butt check from turning towards the target; and just get deep back (without swaying obvisouly)... my present intent is probably causing more harm than good; cause I feel that to have good left tilt, my lead knee collapse inward (and not towards my toes) - hence the center of the pelvis getting closer to the ball; EE to compensate... interesting stuff to work on!

   I think I first got the butt cheek thing fro monte - it is actually one of my trigger for transition.   Great lesson here on dynamic motion of the swing  and how backswing and transition blur to create the downswing.

 

[Simpsonia]

I'll add my own early extension story, because I think there are a lot of possible causes for it. I've only just recently figured out mine out after an online lesson from Dan and obsessively video-taping my swing practice. In the backswing, I never properly loaded my right leg, as I was too afraid of the sway (this is what too much Youtube will do to you). By not loading it, I would stay centered, but over-rotate my hips, my right leg over-extended, and my left knee kicked in way too far. With my left knee kicked in so far, the only way to start the downswing was to swing it outwards (towards the target), but by rotating my knee like this, I was never able to use the ground and actually push the left hip/butt cheek backwards towards the initial butt line. And then it's always too late, right hip starts in and I have to EE and stand up to salvage contact on the ball. 

 

Now I try to load the right leg in the back swing, left knee comes more towards the toes than inward. In transition, now I feel like I'm using ground pressure forward in my left toes to push my left hip backward.

[PracticeSwinger]

2 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

[...] By not loading it, I would stay centered, but over-rotate my hips, my right leg over-extended, and my left knee kicked in way too far. With my left knee kicked in so far, the only way to start the downswing was to swing it outwards (towards the target), but by rotating my knee like this, I was never able to use the ground and actually push the left hip/butt cheek backwards towards the initial butt line. And then it's always too late, right hip starts in and I have to EE and stand up to salvage contact on the ball. 

 

Now I try to load the right leg in the back swing, left knee comes more towards the toes than inward. In transition, now I feel like I'm using ground pressure forward in my left toes to push my left hip backward.

You seem to describe my problem right there; from looking at my swing and all the responses here (thanks!)... left knee definitely dives inward (intent being to keep secondary tilt) causing the chain reaction you describe (really can't feel the transition-downswing lead ground pressure, surf, sway 'downward' that we see from great swings / Rory, Champ, others - and 'upward explosion' thereafter)... presently, since my left knee buckles inward - when trying to push the lead hip back it swings everything around -> EE/OTT)

[golfho50]

10 hours ago, glk said:

Not getting right hip deep enough - essentially you are moving the center of your pelvis closer to the ball in the backswing and It continues this in the downswing.   
 

you may or may not share the same issues as the guy in this video but you are moving your pelvis toward the target in the backswing setting up the ee.

 

you have a stall/ flip release pattern due to the lack of rotation.

 

improving knee/ hip motion is first step along with getting some better angles - side bend.    Face on would tell more about transition and length of arm swing - appears it might be a bit long.

you kinda got it in your summary   Best go find a good instructor to help you work thru it.

 

 

Probably one of the best EE swing videos ever. Wish the went into a little more detail on hips over ankle setup by bending shins forward.   

 

Also as a side you do a great job of swing analysis and feedback. Glad you are a member!

[chipa]

On 10/15/2020 at 12:06 PM, jholz said:

I was just posting about this recently. I'm developing the opinion that EE is really, at its root and especially for me, a balance compensation for folks who are too bent over and have a tendency to get out on their toes. Most of the time its described as a compensation related to getting the club head on the ball - which is true - but I think that explanation hides the true cause - the body trying to maintain balance. 

 

For me, working on keeping my balance centered over my feet and letting the swing happen out in front of me has really helped. This is merely a theory, so take it with a grain of salt. 

 

I honestly think it's because the hands aren't situated correctly with an incorrect takeaway sequence so the body has to do all types of things to generate clubhead speed and close the clubface.

 

There are plenty of examples that demonstrate the importance of good mechanics like good players playing with all types of posture and off balance stances while playing and making easy and effective swings. Also, good hand and arm mechanics even allow one to swing kneeling or sitting down. I started playing golf as an adult so I certainly have felt an over the top move, however, with time I have been increasingly able to get my hand and arms situated and hit the ball well without being concerned too much about my posture, in fact I can vary it and it makes little difference. On the other hand all good golf instructors started as children and never have swung this way and I believe don't understand the root causes but instead get their students to do all types of bandaid moves to square the clubface.

[PracticeSwinger]

11 hours ago, chipa said:

 

I honestly think it's because the hands aren't situated correctly with an incorrect takeaway sequence so the body has to do all types of things to generate clubhead speed and close the clubface.

 

I started playing golf as an adult so I certainly have felt an over the top move, however, with time I have been increasingly able to get my hand and arms situated and hit the ball well without being concerned too much about my posture, in fact I can vary it and it makes little difference.

Interesting and certainly true - I’m not that skilled I think to be able to do that (yet hopefully)... and it must be part of the problem cause I don’t feel I have enough time in the downswing to ‘manipulate’ the club and be able to position my arms and hands consistently

[Golfbeat]

14 hours ago, chipa said:

 

I honestly think it's because the hands aren't situated correctly with an incorrect takeaway sequence so the body has to do all types of things to generate clubhead speed and close the clubface.

 

There are plenty of examples that demonstrate the importance of good mechanics like good players playing with all types of posture and off balance stances while playing and making easy and effective swings. Also, good hand and arm mechanics even allow one to swing kneeling or sitting down. I started playing golf as an adult so I certainly have felt an over the top move, however, with time I have been increasingly able to get my hand and arms situated and hit the ball well without being concerned too much about my posture, in fact I can vary it and it makes little difference. On the other hand all good golf instructors started as children and never have swung this way and I believe don't understand the root causes but instead get their students to do all types of bandaid moves to square the clubface.

 

I have always wondered about this. How do they teach children? I doubt that they tell them the same things as adults? Or maybe they do? Would be nice to see some videos on youth instruction and what the real focus is. That might be enlightening. 

[Golfbeat]

Actually found a junior doing the stick drill. Talking about an unrestricted hip turn in the backswing! 

 

 

 

[chipa]

3 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

Interesting and certainly true - I’m not that skilled I think to be able to do that (yet hopefully)... and it must be part of the problem cause I don’t feel I have enough time in the downswing to ‘manipulate’ the club and be able to position my arms and hands consistently

 

That is very common. Looking at videos of typical high hc'er and understanding the the dynamics of throwing and its clear the right elbow/forearm/hand is not in the correct position with the elbow leading the hand as is necessary for a throwing motion with the right hand. The most common cause it appears in starting the swing with the right side pulling the body around and the hand as well, which causes not only the arms to get out of position but does not load the body correctly. That has to be the least powerful golf position actually, but it is very intuitive and I sometimes have the tendency to do it.

 

Based on my own observations in order to prevent my right hand from pulling back I pressing the hands together so they are securely on the grip then I start the swing with the left hand and arm and resist with my right leg. Also, and of equally importance the right hand and arm must be in front of the chest the whole time during the swing. An easy way to ensure this is to focus on the right elbow being pushed forward at the beginning of the takeaway and pointed down the whole time during the backswing and being loose enough that the forearm can rotate CW as needed. This was told to me once by a pro and I see now it is easily the best advice I have ever had or seen anywhere to effectively learn to use the the right hand. The shoulders and upper arms must be very relaxed and there is just enough of tension in the hands and forearm to keep the grip together. With time and practice the hands and arms will form a more or less constrained relation early in the backswing, which is a tangible structure to swing "against". The hands oppose and the right hand feels like it throws the left hand and arm through impact. I actually call this my right elbow swing and it is effortless and powerful. When I was a young guy I swung in the 120's but never understood my technique because I started playing at 30 years old. Good luck.

[chipa]

1 hour ago, Golfbeat said:

 

I have always wondered about this. How do they teach children? I doubt that they tell them the same things as adults? Or maybe they do? Would be nice to see some videos on youth instruction and what the real focus is. That might be enlightening. 

 

I have a nephew who is a scratch golfer, and like many really good golfers he never had any real instruction. As a teacher I learned that a child's mind does not learn like an adults mind but is actually much more powerful because many "connections" have not been made yet. This is one of the reasons its nearly impossible for an adult to learn to swing like a pro, because the swing is a complicated move. However, I see that understanding certain fundamentals of the relation of the hands and arms at setup and the sequence of the takeaway can help people make a biometric swing. I learned to play at 30 years old and have sliced it with the best of them. I now hook it and still swing like a 100+ h.c.'er at times and it is frustrating. However, just the other day I got my sequence right on the course and hit it like a pro, literally. I hit it pretty long and straight for a small 55 year old guy, and the great thing is I can feel it in my hands and my arms that tell me within 1 foot of my takeaway if I have everything connected as the should be, from there as long as I don't jump at it I will hit it good.

[Stiff]

DANGER!!!  I wouldn't try to change anything!  Your swing looks eerily similar to mine BEFORE I tried to eliminate EE and a slight cupped wrist.  I'm 6'3" and play with 1" over clubs.  The biggest golfing regret I have is chasing a cure for EE on top of what was already a pretty decent golf swing.  I went from a 5 to a 10 index and it has been hell trying to get back.   You have a good swing.......practice your short game and be happy.

 

I only wish I had gotten this advice years ago and avoided multiple golf lessons and countless hours viewing YouTube instruction!  YMMV.

[fjroney]

You’re too far from the ball at setup and your hips are losing a ton of depth from P4 to P5. But the bigger issue is your spine is way too static. Fixing setup and flexing trail hip in transition will put you on the right track, allow you to rotate and get into right bend which will calm down the flip. Good luck