What made David Duval such a great ballstriker?

[Pepperturbo]

Might not be what some want to hear, but for most of his career DD played blades, worked hard, still works hard and sees obstacles as challenges.  He doesn't give up.

[Divot License]

On 11/9/2020 at 7:52 AM, sticksgolf said:

 

I've watched Trevino up close but never seen Duval.

 

Still, what David Eger wrote about Duval always made me wish I had the chance to witness it in person:

 

BEST BALL-STRIKER I EVER SAW: Lee Trevino. Having said that, I played a round with David Duval and his father, Bob, back when David was the reigning U.S. Junior Amateur champion. It was 50 degrees and windy in Ponte Vedra, the kind of winter day where the golf ball doesn’t go anywhere regardless of who’s hitting it. But David’s ball flew like it was a hot day in Phoenix. There was a character to it I haven’t quite seen since. And then he got even better. Lee had more shots than David and was better through the bag, so he has the edge. But for pure majesty of ball flight, nobody I’ve seen has matched the young David Duval.

I was there on Sunday at Royal Lytham to witness Duvals Open win. Had seen him the year before in 2000 and was stunned with how pure his ball striking was. Routed for him ever since. Shame what happened to his game, another one of golfs great mysteries.  

[MK7Golf21]

I taught David how to swing back in the day  so that’s why 

[Nard_S]

One the first players I heard talk about throwing the hands away from the top as a method of release. I was watching a lot of TV golf then, it always struck me how solid and consistent his rhythm was.

[jonsnow]

3 hours ago, Nard_S said:

One the first players I heard talk about throwing the hands away from the top as a method of release. I was watching a lot of TV golf then, it always struck me how solid and consistent his rhythm was.

There used to be a video on Youtube that Wayne DeFrancesco shot (also on his website) from a practice round at the PGA one year when DeFrancesco had qualified. Wayne said it was some of the most impressive ballstriking he had ever seen. Wayne also had some video analysis of Duval's swing during his prime & also after his decline when he was still playing on tour some; he showed the difference in Duval's hand path to start the downswing. It was noticeably more out towards the ball during his prime & more downward in his later swing. I don't know if that would be related to injuries, but the difference was striking...

[Fairway14]

On 10/20/2020 at 11:09 AM, jonsnow said:

. His tempo was so smooth! 

 

 

You answered your own question.

[jonsnow]

Well, I like to have conversations with intelligent people. That's why I come here. Also why I sometimes talk to myself.

[Fairway14]

24 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

Well, I like to have conversations with intelligent people. That's why I come here. Also why I sometimes talk to myself.

 

Remember that  there has always been a wide range of swing planes and swing positions among Tour players, but all share the common factor of impeccable tempo-rhythm.

[jonsnow]

1 hour ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Remember that  there has always been a wide range of swing planes and swing positions among Tour players, but all share the common factor of impeccable tempo-rhythm.

Agreed.

[MK7Golf21]

6 hours ago, Nard_S said:

One the first players I heard talk about throwing the hands away from the top as a method of release. I was watching a lot of TV golf then, it always struck me how solid and consistent his rhythm was.

 

well when did he say this? When he was trying to give the pga tour one last shot a few years back he started working with Chris O Connell. Was regurgitating alot of one plane swing info they were teaching him, not what he did in his prime.

[freowho]

3 hours ago, jonsnow said:

There used to be a video on Youtube that Wayne DeFrancesco shot (also on his website) from a practice round at the PGA one year when DeFrancesco had qualified. Wayne said it was some of the most impressive ballstriking he had ever seen. Wayne also had some video analysis of Duval's swing during his prime & also after his decline when he was still playing on tour some; he showed the difference in Duval's hand path to start the downswing. It was noticeably more out towards the ball during his prime & more downward in his later swing. I don't know if that would be related to injuries, but the difference was striking...

 

 

Wayne D does some good videos. Duval was high launch, low spin before trackman. Lots of very good players have to change things as they age, less rotation, less side bend etc but they can usually keep the good stuff. Maybe Duval just tried to change the wrong things.

Was it to do with the weight loss? That happens as well. Ariya Jutanugarn isn't the same player after losing weight. 

 

[freowho]

23 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

well when did he say this? When he was trying to give the pga tour one last shot a few years back he started working with Chris O Connell. Was regurgitating alot of one plane swing info they were teaching him, not what he did in his prime.

It's a video of a tv so I don't know what date it was. 

 

 

[jonsnow]

14 minutes ago, freowho said:

 

 

Wayne D does some good videos. Duval was high launch, low spin before trackman. Lots of very good players have to change things as they age, less rotation, less side bend etc but they can usually keep the good stuff. Maybe Duval just tried to change the wrong things.

Was it to do with the weight loss? That happens as well. Ariya Jutanugarn isn't the same player after losing weight. 

 

Thank you for finding & posting this! 

[Nard_S]

41 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

well when did he say this? When he was trying to give the pga tour one last shot a few years back he started working with Chris O Connell. Was regurgitating alot of one plane swing info they were teaching him, not what he did in his prime.

No, it was in his prime.

[Nard_S]

18 minutes ago, freowho said:

It's a video of a tv so I don't know what date it was. 

 

 

This is his prime years, he's fat and soft looking. he got all skinny & buff then dropped off the earth. When he talked of this, I thought it was insane because no one described a release like that. Nowadays a lot more common and understood.

[freowho]

1 minute ago, Nard_S said:

This is his prime years, he's fat and soft looking. he got all skinny & buff then dropped off the earth. When he talked of this, I thought it was insane because no one described a release like that. Nowadays a lot more common and understood.

I used to do a physical style of yoga. Lots of push ups, reverse push ups, hand stands against the wall etc. It was amazing how the really muscly people had trouble holding their own body weight off the ground. For example, with a handstand the trick is being able to lengthen the arms and open the shoulders so the bones are holding you up and the muscles don't have to do much. It actually becomes quite easy to the point where you can relax into the position. But if you can't stretch you're relying on your muscles which fatigue quickly.

I've often wondered if the gym work can be detrimental to a golf swing in the same way. I'm not against getting fitter and stronger but I think the power in some golf swings is quite unique and can be lost with the wrong exercises.

[MK7Golf21]

44 minutes ago, freowho said:

It's a video of a tv so I don't know what date it was. 

 

 

 

yea, thats not his prime, this was few years ago. He was explaining what Chris O Connell taught him about releases

 

https://www.golfchannel.com/video/jim-hardy-explains-theories-releasing-golf-club

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

yea, thats not his prime, this was few years ago. He was explaining what Chris O Connell taught him about releases

 

https://www.golfchannel.com/video/jim-hardy-explains-theories-releasing-golf-club

It really does not matter the date time stamp of videos. he's been swinging pretty much the same way for decades. I heard of the throw thing well over 10 years ago and not in 2016. In fact the 2nd video points out in the '99 DD swing, he was throwing the hands more out, than later swing which is exactly what I'm talking about. His rhythm and rotation is a much bigger deal, in my opinion. Guy really trusted his body rotation. 

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, freowho said:

I used to do a physical style of yoga. Lots of push ups, reverse push ups, hand stands against the wall etc. It was amazing how the really muscly people had trouble holding their own body weight off the ground. For example, with a handstand the trick is being able to lengthen the arms and open the shoulders so the bones are holding you up and the muscles don't have to do much. It actually becomes quite easy to the point where you can relax into the position. But if you can't stretch you're relying on your muscles which fatigue quickly.

I've often wondered if the gym work can be detrimental to a golf swing in the same way. I'm not against getting fitter and stronger but I think the power in some golf swings is quite unique and can be lost with the wrong exercises.

I'm real interested to try yoga. I have a friend of 40 years, this guy is an instructor, he's in his 60's, his fitness level is unbelievable. My experience is core & legs and dynamic full body workouts offer a ton of benefit to swing. Big pecs & biceps detract, so iron is good but it can cut both ways.

[chipa]

I read Duval hurt his back lifting weights and was out for months not able to swing a club. I don't know if that did him in or just the rotary type of swing in general. It's a young man's swing for sure wit some exceptions like Couples.

[MK7Golf21]

5 hours ago, Nard_S said:

It really does not matter the date time stamp of videos. he's been swinging pretty much the same way for decades. I heard of the throw thing well over 10 years ago and not in 2016. In fact the 2nd video points out in the '99 DD swing, he was throwing the hands more out, than later swing which is exactly what I'm talking about. His rhythm and rotation is a much bigger deal, in my opinion. Guy really trusted his body rotation. 

my point is there is only 1 video I see where David is explaining his feels and it was the more recent one when Chris o Connell was teaching him. He was explaining what Chris and Jim teach in regard to release. I watched them work together when they first started on the range and David couldn’t keep the ball on the planet, very low huge slices. 

 

If David explained his swing back in his prime, I would be way more interested in that. Not some regurgitated stuff from Hardy’s book

[cavemeister]

6 hours ago, chipa said:

I read Duval hurt his back lifting weights and was out for months not able to swing a club. I don't know if that did him in or just the rotary type of swing in general. It's a young man's swing for sure wit some exceptions like Couples.

David Duval had back problems because he was 6 feet tall and very short legs and a long torso. He mentioned this in an interview. 

[milesgiles]

12 hours ago, freowho said:

 

 

Wayne D does some good videos. Duval was high launch, low spin before trackman. Lots of very good players have to change things as they age, less rotation, less side bend etc but they can usually keep the good stuff. Maybe Duval just tried to change the wrong things.

Was it to do with the weight loss? That happens as well. Ariya Jutanugarn isn't the same player after losing weight. 

 

 

What a great video

 

never thought of it like this but a really, really strong grip seems to make a lot of sense, would make blocking it very hard to do. Conversely, you’ll need to unwind the torso extremely fast to square the club and avoid it going left.

just a young mans swing? Feel I’m way past getting that sort of rotation in

[Divot License]

20 hours ago, jonsnow said:

There used to be a video on Youtube that Wayne DeFrancesco shot (also on his website) from a practice round at the PGA one year when DeFrancesco had qualified. Wayne said it was some of the most impressive ballstriking he had ever seen. Wayne also had some video analysis of Duval's swing during his prime & also after his decline when he was still playing on tour some; he showed the difference in Duval's hand path to start the downswing. It was noticeably more out towards the ball during his prime & more downward in his later swing. I don't know if that would be related to injuries, but the difference was striking...

 

17 hours ago, freowho said:

 

 

Wayne D does some good videos. Duval was high launch, low spin before trackman. Lots of very good players have to change things as they age, less rotation, less side bend etc but they can usually keep the good stuff. Maybe Duval just tried to change the wrong things.

Was it to do with the weight loss? That happens as well. Ariya Jutanugarn isn't the same player after losing weight. 

 

This is Defrancesco's original video

[jonsnow]

40 minutes ago, Jedaigeki said:

 

This is Defrancesco's original video

This is the other video I was talking about! Thank you for posting this! 

 

In response to chipa, Duval had a series of injuries that robbed him of the ability to rotate as aggressively as his swing required. That's when he started having the big two way misses. The one he thought did the most damage was when he slipped on wet rocks fly fishing in a river in Idaho, which he used to do pretty often in his prime. 

 

I don't recall him ever having an ongoing relationship with an instructor other than his father, Bob Duval, when he was playing his best. 

[jonsnow]

17 hours ago, Nard_S said:

This is his prime years, he's fat and soft looking. he got all skinny & buff then dropped off the earth. When he talked of this, I thought it was insane because no one described a release like that. Nowadays a lot more common and understood.

Nard, can you talk a little more about the release he is describing in this video? I don't understand the difference between rotating the forearms in the release & what he is describing ,which looks to me like the left wrist breaking down without any forearm rotation.

[Nard_S]

3 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

Nard, can you talk a little more about the release he is describing in this video? I don't understand the difference between rotating the forearms in the release & what he is describing ,which looks to me like the left wrist breaking down without any forearm rotation.

 

 

He tries to minimize forearm rotation. When the guy goes "whoa, whoa, that's casting". He's throwing the hands away at the top but he's also squaring the face early and letting his rotation shallow the path. One of the 1st big time players that made this obvious. This is done all the time today. Bruce Koepka is a great example of this. Square face early & shallow late is advocated a lot now but no one back in the day spoke of it.  I work on this intent all the time, when I can lock in, the swing goes to another gear.

 

 

[Cpr3584]

Being the only Democrat on tour

Edited November 11, 2020 by Cpr3584

[chipa]

On 11/11/2020 at 2:28 AM, cavemeister said:

David Duval had back problems because he was 6 feet tall and very short legs and a long torso. He mentioned this in an interview. 

 

I never saw that but I don't doubt you. I do doubt Duval's understanding of the human body and biomechanics though. A longer spine will allow for the torquing forces to be distributed over a larger area thus putting less stress on the spine compared to a person with a shorter spine length.