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Putter Shape and its Effects on Aim Bias


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On 11/28/2022 at 1:08 PM, Joe Duffer said:

 

How about if you're looking straight down (90°) and from directly behind (sidesaddle/face-on style) on this putterhead design?

*The shaft is suspended and swung on a vertical (90°) plane

Please forgive me if someone has already asked/discussed this form of putting and how it affects aim.

 

Thanks,

JD

 

 

 

SideSaddle.png

So... nothin'? - I could use a little guidance here...

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1 hour ago, Joe Duffer said:

So... nothin'? - I could use a little guidance here...

Seems like a difficult idea to predict launch spin and distance.

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TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

T100S 4-5 - T100 6-P - SM9 50.12F    D3    X100TI

SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
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On 12/2/2022 at 5:21 PM, SnowmanShanks said:

Seems like a difficult idea to predict launch spin and distance.

Huh... ?? - The discussion is about "Aim Bias"

Edited by Joe Duffer

"Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do." - John Wooden

"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it.” - Henry Thoreau

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well I just have no idea. I did no testing for this type pf straddle technique.

 

 

 

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Gamer WITB

hit the ProV1x from the wrong side... 

TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

T100S 4-5 - T100 6-P - SM9 50.12F    D3    X100TI

SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
ChampChoice NP2 Ozik125 black GPcordPistol 33.85           D5.5

Players4Carbon - GP TVCord - FJ StaSof - FJ AlphaBoa

 

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On 11/28/2022 at 9:20 PM, Joe Duffer said:

Not exactly true, my friend. You are allowed to swing ANY club in your bag on ANY plane angle you choose, including a vertical plane (90°), however the maximum allowable lie angle for the club itself is 80° or in other words, 10° OFF vertical. When I putt side-saddle/face-on with the putter swinging on a vertical plane, the putterhead is not perfectly soled on the ground. The putter is suspended using gravity with the putterhead barely touching the ground, if at all. This inclination naturally raises the heel higher above the ground than the toe. I hope I made that understandable...

 

OK, got it. Heel off the ground and shaft vertical.

 

I guess I'm not understanding then, what you mean by "side-saddle/face on".  :classic_blink:

 

I'm picturing you standing behind the ball with 1 foot on either side of the putting line extended, i.e. straddling the target line, which I'm sure you know is illegal. 

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This is "Sidesaddle" / "Face-On" putting. Simply nothing more than an extremely open, long-putter technique.

Edited by Joe Duffer

"Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do." - John Wooden

"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it.” - Henry Thoreau

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • Thanks 1
Spoiler

Gamer WITB

hit the ProV1x from the wrong side... 

TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

T100S 4-5 - T100 6-P - SM9 50.12F    D3    X100TI

SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
ChampChoice NP2 Ozik125 black GPcordPistol 33.85           D5.5

Players4Carbon - GP TVCord - FJ StaSof - FJ AlphaBoa

 

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7 hours ago, SnowmanShanks said:

I love this comparison.

Same hosel. Length. Loft. Lie.

 

I'll look into it!

Same everything. What I’m wondering about would be the curved wings vs. the straight. These are Evnroll’s new putters and it looks like they went with  the Scotty Cameron 5 and Odyssey 7 for the same line. Besides aesthetics (the curved looks smaller) I’m interested in what you think the difference would be between curved and straight wings. Evnroll is very deliberate with their designs so they must have a good reason for offering both. 

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  • 11 months later...
2 hours ago, Happyday_J said:

Bumping an old thread.

 

@SnowmanShanks were you able to see another interesting in the test between those two style highlighted with evnroll putter?

New business. New baby. Building another house. Unfortunately golf testing is done for now!

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Gamer WITB

hit the ProV1x from the wrong side... 

TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

T100S 4-5 - T100 6-P - SM9 50.12F    D3    X100TI

SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
ChampChoice NP2 Ozik125 black GPcordPistol 33.85           D5.5

Players4Carbon - GP TVCord - FJ StaSof - FJ AlphaBoa

 

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On 1/15/2023 at 8:33 AM, Honeybadger said:

Same everything. What I’m wondering about would be the curved wings vs. the straight. These are Evnroll’s new putters and it looks like they went with  the Scotty Cameron 5 and Odyssey 7 for the same line. Besides aesthetics (the curved looks smaller) I’m interested in what you think the difference would be between curved and straight wings. Evnroll is very deliberate with their designs so they must have a good reason for offering both. 

That would be player dependent and don't forget alignment lines play a HUGE role in aim as well as neck.  This is one of the big reasons we construct putters the way we do at Edel.  Especially with the new lineup coming 🙂  

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Edel ARRAY F3 w/ 3 line alignment




 

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  • 5 weeks later...
2 minutes ago, joshclayg said:

Interesting read.

 

I'm still puzzled how I can putt well With a naked newport AOP but have to be hyper vigilant with a classic 1 not to miss hook side, possibly weight difference and colour, but the the performance differences are ridiculous.

 

AOP ?

 

Classic 1 ?

 

 

Edited by nsxguy

Callaway Epic Flash SZ 10.5 Ventus Blue 6S

Ping G425 14.5 Fairway Tour AD TP 6X

Ping G425 MAX 20.5 7 wood Diamana Blue 70 S

Ping G20 5-PW DGS300 Yellow Dot

Ping Glide Pro 48*

Taylormade MG3 52*, 56*, TW 60* DGS200

LAB Mezz Max 35*, RED, Black Accra

Callaway Tour TruTrack Yellow

 

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1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

AOP ?

 

Classic 1 ?

 

 

Art of putting.

Classic type 1 for SC and anser 1 for all others. 

 

1 hour ago, joshclayg said:

Interesting read.

 

I'm still puzzled how I can putt well With a naked newport AOP but have to be hyper vigilant with a classic 1 not to miss hook side, possibly weight difference and colour, but the the performance differences are ridiculous.

May have something to do with weights or offset or alignment colors or lines. Sry! Too many variables.

 

Unfortunately I have moved out of a blade as I have found closure rates have severely slowed for me personally with mallets. I am using the new 7S ai from odyssey. The grooves seem to be helping enough with the further CoG. 

 

I have made further discovery as for the closure rates. (Obviously) less is better. But no reasonably decent putter rotates the putter more than 6 deg. Not sure what the metric was but we measured 6 frames prior to impact and all the excellent putters were between 3 and 1.5!!!!

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hit the ProV1x from the wrong side... 

TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

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SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
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Players4Carbon - GP TVCord - FJ StaSof - FJ AlphaBoa

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/3/2024 at 10:37 AM, J13 said:

That would be player dependent and don't forget alignment lines play a HUGE role in aim as well as neck.  This is one of the big reasons we construct putters the way we do at Edel.  Especially with the new lineup coming 🙂  

The new Edel look really nice!

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12 hours ago, Honeybadger said:

The new Edel look really nice!

 

Appreciate that.  I love this thread and how it highlights the importance of aim.  Whether trying to make a 10ft putt or shoot a deer from 300yds if you aren't aimed where you think you are, you're in trouble.  The new ARRAY fitting system has 6 alignment options that are magnetic so the fitter can swap them in and out in a matter of seconds. Fun process!

Callaway Ai Smoke Triple  8* / Fuji Ventus Black TR 6X               

TM Qi10 15* / Project X HZRDUS Black 8X        

Edel SMS iron 4-5 / DG TI X100 /////  SMS PRO irons 6-PW / DG TI X100

Edel SMS 50V, 54T, 60T / DG TI S400/ BGT ZNE 130

Edel ARRAY F3 w/ 3 line alignment




 

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30 minutes ago, J13 said:

 

Appreciate that.  I love this thread and how it highlights the importance of aim.  Whether trying to make a 10ft putt or shoot a deer from 300yds if you aren't aimed where you think you are, you're in trouble.  The new ARRAY fitting system has 6 alignment options that are magnetic so the fitter can swap them in and out in a matter of seconds. Fun process!

 

Question just on curiosity, what was topline alignments completely omitted from these new putters? Is it just a drawback of the interchangeable system or just not really seen as needed by David? 

Lefty - WITB Thread

Driver: 10° Cobra LTDxLS | AD-IZ 6X 

3W: 15° Callaway Paradym X | AD-IZ 7X

3H: 19° Ping G410 | Tensei CK Pro Orange 90TX

Irons: PXG 0311P 4-6 | 0317CB 7-PW | DG 120 X100

Wedges: SM9 50° - 54° - 58° 

Putter(s): Ping PLD Anser 4K | CMD Gauge R | and more. 

Ball: TP5X 2024

Bag: Ghost Katana

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6 hours ago, MattM97 said:

 

Question just on curiosity, what was topline alignments completely omitted from these new putters? Is it just a drawback of the interchangeable system or just not really seen as needed by David? 

 

A few reasons

 

1. We are constantly testing these sorts of things.  Alignment lines pull your attention to certain parts of the putter.  Aim can change by how long lines are and by the pattern not just whether it's top or bottom. 

 

2.We wanted to keep the top line cleaner looking for ARRAY and not have a plate interfere with the look at address.  It's also why we didn't incorporate a plate in the B series.  Could we have done it? yes, but visually it looked off and distracting.

 

It's a constant battle of form vs function 

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TM Qi10 15* / Project X HZRDUS Black 8X        

Edel SMS iron 4-5 / DG TI X100 /////  SMS PRO irons 6-PW / DG TI X100

Edel SMS 50V, 54T, 60T / DG TI S400/ BGT ZNE 130

Edel ARRAY F3 w/ 3 line alignment




 

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14 minutes ago, J13 said:

 

A few reasons

 

1. We are constantly testing these sorts of things.  Alignment lines pull your attention to certain parts of the putter.  Aim can change by how long lines are and by the pattern not just whether it's top or bottom. 

 

2.We wanted to keep the top line cleaner looking for ARRAY and not have a plate interfere with the look at address.  It's also why we didn't incorporate a plate in the B series.  Could we have done it? yes, but visually it looked off and distracting.

 

It's a constant battle of form vs function 

 

That's fair, cause the topline was part of the last 2 lines for alignment and wanting to have a focus on alignment just figured having all the options was the best way to reach that ultimate goal of building the best putter one can aim. 

Lefty - WITB Thread

Driver: 10° Cobra LTDxLS | AD-IZ 6X 

3W: 15° Callaway Paradym X | AD-IZ 7X

3H: 19° Ping G410 | Tensei CK Pro Orange 90TX

Irons: PXG 0311P 4-6 | 0317CB 7-PW | DG 120 X100

Wedges: SM9 50° - 54° - 58° 

Putter(s): Ping PLD Anser 4K | CMD Gauge R | and more. 

Ball: TP5X 2024

Bag: Ghost Katana

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3 hours ago, MattM97 said:

 

That's fair, cause the topline was part of the last 2 lines for alignment and wanting to have a focus on alignment just figured having all the options was the best way to reach that ultimate goal of building the best putter one can aim. 

 

 

I'm completely with ya. With ARRAY we added the ablity of the player being able to get fit for toe flow aside from just aim and speed so it's a more comprehensive fit than the previous line IMO. ARRAY will also have a little surprise offering. Something Edel has never done. Can't get into it right now but it will be a nice addition.

Callaway Ai Smoke Triple  8* / Fuji Ventus Black TR 6X               

TM Qi10 15* / Project X HZRDUS Black 8X        

Edel SMS iron 4-5 / DG TI X100 /////  SMS PRO irons 6-PW / DG TI X100

Edel SMS 50V, 54T, 60T / DG TI S400/ BGT ZNE 130

Edel ARRAY F3 w/ 3 line alignment




 

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51 minutes ago, GBGolfingtons said:

I’m a big left aimer (being right handed)

 

now thinking I should buy a ping Oslo - rounded and large distance from front to back!

Why guess?  Get fit with Edels new ARRAY system.  Shape matters with aim but so does hosel and alignment lines.  The whole idea is build and customize it to what you need.

Callaway Ai Smoke Triple  8* / Fuji Ventus Black TR 6X               

TM Qi10 15* / Project X HZRDUS Black 8X        

Edel SMS iron 4-5 / DG TI X100 /////  SMS PRO irons 6-PW / DG TI X100

Edel SMS 50V, 54T, 60T / DG TI S400/ BGT ZNE 130

Edel ARRAY F3 w/ 3 line alignment




 

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On 2/13/2024 at 5:09 PM, J13 said:

 

 

I'm completely with ya. With ARRAY we added the ablity of the player being able to get fit for toe flow aside from just aim and speed so it's a more comprehensive fit than the previous line IMO. ARRAY will also have a little surprise offering. Something Edel has never done. Can't get into it right now but it will be a nice addition.

Any timeframe estimate? I want to get fitted for one but if there is something coming out I’d definitely want to wait!? My guess is a shaft

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15 hours ago, Meanbeav77 said:

Any timeframe estimate? I want to get fitted for one but if there is something coming out I’d definitely want to wait!? My guess is a shaft

 

They just hit the market as of yesterday.  You can go to the website and click Find a Fitter to enter your zipcode.  You can also go the webstie and see what every combination looks like.  

Callaway Ai Smoke Triple  8* / Fuji Ventus Black TR 6X               

TM Qi10 15* / Project X HZRDUS Black 8X        

Edel SMS iron 4-5 / DG TI X100 /////  SMS PRO irons 6-PW / DG TI X100

Edel SMS 50V, 54T, 60T / DG TI S400/ BGT ZNE 130

Edel ARRAY F3 w/ 3 line alignment




 

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  • 4 weeks later...

If I find myself aiming right when I have a SC Newport 2 and aiming fairly straight when I have an odyssey 11 with a solid single line on top, what alignment lines would I want on a LABGolf DF3?

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At my fitting my static aim was 1.8° left and I returned to the same 1.8° left on average.   With the opening and closing, I understand that I aim bit left and push a bit right (hold off release) to get a successful straight putt.  
 

Recommendation is a blade putter with 45° of toe hang and 72° lie.  
 

Some images follow.  Thoughts?
 


 

 

IMG_8932.jpeg

IMG_8933.jpeg

IMG_8934.jpeg

IMG_8935.jpeg

IMG_8936.jpeg

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Thought I’d share that I have followed up using my old Newport instead of a mallet and experimented with set up (particularly ball position) to get set up where my view of straight is in fact straight.   Requires me to move ball position back, and accept the fact that this isn’t “standard ball position” — but the fact that my view matches reality and I can make more putts trumps standard set up.   
 

65 years old playing with progressive lenses requires some creativity.   

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