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Putter Shape and its Effects on Aim Bias


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Guys I am so sorry. I have not been doing too much testing lately. Getting those rounds in! Handicap down to 1.8.... I will do my best to respond to everyone when I can. My quintec should be coming over the winter months as well!.

 

Thanks.

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Yes, this is a really good post with a lot of good stuff. 

 

I had been aligning my PXG Blackjack in a closed manner on setup and was doing it consistently causing pulls.  When I read the part about the long sightlines, which the Blackjack has, I figured out I had been doing that with any long-sightlined putter (Spider X as a second example).  I had been compensating for this, since I knew I was doing it, but never knew sightline was a potential culprit.  Varying results by day (some days 27 putts, some days 35 putts).  Home course averages 31 putts per round.

 

I decided to do an experiment.  I took a piece of electrical tape and covered the sightline.  That proved to be a little unclean looking to do the experiment, so I used a sharpie.  I then took some model paint and put a little (like 1mm diameter) white dot of paint about 2mm from the front of the blade. That pretty much instantly stopped the aim bias closed thing,  made the aim bias neutral, which I find to be just amazing.  I am speaking to when I initially set the putter on the ground.  Did not play home course this weekend.  Played one course that is much more difficult (its a korn ferry course with trouble on pretty much every hole) that has lots of tiers and undulations and nasty rough near the greens.  25 putts, only one pulled (just a bad stroke in general), hit a couple of long birdies (one was a 50 footer, other 15 footer) and lag putts were close.  The other course today was 26 putts.  Same basic diagnosis.  No pulled putts.  My GIR wasn't good at either frankly (about 35% on both when usually it is 55%), lots of chips or short pitches, so that can factor into the number of putts, but the results of the putts were discernably different.  Drastically reduced pulls due to initial misalignment.

 

So, I guess that big long high-contrast sightline had the effect of me setting the putter closed on setup and accordingly pulling putts. So now I have some model paint (Modelmaster acrylic flat black) drying out to hopefully give it a very clean look.  Not sure whether I will repeat the little white dot.  I probably will.  I'll take a pic when done.

 

I think grips make a huge difference too.  Pistols I will align more closed than a round grip.  That much i know.  That is why I either use a round grip or a gravity grip.

 

 

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Very interesting thread.   Seems like the plethora of mallets with long sight lines on every rack  , are not as much needed as the marketeers tell us they are !? 

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Okay so coming back to my earlier post.  After 5 rounds the blackout of the huge white sightline definitely had a significant impact.

 

I focus on the ball at setup and don't notice the long sightline at all.  This has resulted in closed face at setup being totally eliminated.  In rounds this weekend there were no pulls. 

 

So I made it permanent and blacked out the entire putter sans the skull.  I used Tamiya R/C car paint, which is tougher than regular tamiya paint since R/C cars crash a lot.  I then flat coated with same.  I then coated with an impact resistant flat coat.  It came out very slightly glossier than original, but it is still good for me.  If I run into durability issues then I will have it powdercoated over the winter and that will be that.

 

One thing I neglected to mention is that my eyesight is cross dominant at this range.  By that I mean that at longer range my dominant eye is what I see.  However with my putter head, my nondominant eye is what I see.  So when the putter appears slightly open, then it is actually square (ball in center of stance).  I mitigate that by shutting my nondominant eye (right eye) when aiming.  I then open both and the view changes back to looking slightly open, but actually being square.  The dominance change occurs between 3 and 4 feet (below 3 feet, nondominant eye clearly sees everything and above 4 feet dominant eye clearly sees everything).

 

This change has helped with that in that elimination of the long white line has simplified the peripheral vision and I can more easily focus strictly on the ball.  I no longer try to line up with the sightline, which produces an actually closed face due to the eye thing.  I line up with the face.

 

side observation: putter looks nifty when blacked out

 

IMG_20211011_0734429.jpg.be32bc0a3dbb1b1687b6f75dfb47d091.jpgIMG_20211011_0733007.jpg.4c9fb07102d32c45b527d82b4fced2fd.jpgIMG_20211011_0733345.jpg.160d24412e74ab4ba1dcc8bdeeb1c9d7.jpg

 

 

 

 

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On 10/11/2021 at 10:34 AM, Lasorcier said:

Okay so coming back to my earlier post.  After 5 rounds the blackout of the huge white sightline definitely had a significant impact.

 

I focus on the ball at setup and don't notice the long sightline at all.  This has resulted in closed face at setup being totally eliminated.  In rounds this weekend there were no pulls. 

 

So I made it permanent and blacked out the entire putter sans the skull.  I used Tamiya R/C car paint, which is tougher than regular tamiya paint since R/C cars crash a lot.  I then flat coated with same.  I then coated with an impact resistant flat coat.  It came out very slightly glossier than original, but it is still good for me.  If I run into durability issues then I will have it powdercoated over the winter and that will be that.

 

One thing I neglected to mention is that my eyesight is cross dominant at this range.  By that I mean that at longer range my dominant eye is what I see.  However with my putter head, my nondominant eye is what I see.  So when the putter appears slightly open, then it is actually square (ball in center of stance).  I mitigate that by shutting my nondominant eye (right eye) when aiming.  I then open both and the view changes back to looking slightly open, but actually being square.  The dominance change occurs between 3 and 4 feet (below 3 feet, nondominant eye clearly sees everything and above 4 feet dominant eye clearly sees everything).

 

This change has helped with that in that elimination of the long white line has simplified the peripheral vision and I can more easily focus strictly on the ball.  I no longer try to line up with the sightline, which produces an actually closed face due to the eye thing.  I line up with the face.

 

side observation: putter looks nifty when blacked out

 

IMG_20211011_0734429.jpg.be32bc0a3dbb1b1687b6f75dfb47d091.jpgIMG_20211011_0733007.jpg.4c9fb07102d32c45b527d82b4fced2fd.jpgIMG_20211011_0733345.jpg.160d24412e74ab4ba1dcc8bdeeb1c9d7.jpg

 

 

 

 

I love this idea. Knowing where you line up and your tendencies are important. But always remember there are multiple variables happening at once.

 

Static setup is very important (which you have improved on using the line)

dynamic delivery (square to slightly open preferred)

Static loft ( changing this will also impact the open or closed nature of the face at setup)

dynamic loft (fitting will help) and launch

Spin or overspin

and finally ball direction

 

To all concerned.

Using my studies and findings over the course of the Season have brought my handicap down CONSIDERABLY. 

Which can be almost completely attributed to knowledge and improvements in the putting fitting and stroke.

 

Not that my game is important or relevant, but I would urge everyone to understand the metrics and variables of putting as an art and as a science. I went through 70 putters to finally decide a flange line was better than a top line or a dot, but a long line.

 

Problem, we know its a slow process, and an expensive one. I hope I can help as many individuals as possible.

 

further thoughts

 

We are now experimenting with different putter shafts regarding slice side deflection in our machine as well as various putter strokes.

 

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TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

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T100S 4-5 - T100 6-P - SM9 50.12F    D3    X100TI

SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
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On 10/13/2021 at 9:42 AM, dbleag said:

Hello, Snowman - 

 

Thank you for the great info.

 

Will a session at a Sam PuttLab help identify some of the problems/tendencies you mention? 

i think it can help understanding and identifying your stroke.

it can also help create your new stroke to become your natural one, through repetition.

 

the problem is the greens we play on are all different from day to day, and one break will look different at each position of the sun, grass, moisture, etc

 

But i think the trivial putt

12 ft

flat

12 stimp... (important because it magnifies issues)

Causing an end over end roll, with a square face, with less than 10% skipping range (or none at all) would greatly reduce strokes lost on the putting surface.

 

You would not believe the difficulty of a dead flat putt at 12 ft.

Anyone that walks into my "studio".... i tell them this putt is level flat

and its exactly 12 ft ( and these are single digit handicaps), they pull it left they pull it right, they blame the ball or the break. starting off it is common to sink roughly 5 or 6 balls of 20.

After 3 months of continued practice i have seen improvements up to 15 or 16 out of 20 for such individuals. (personally i have never achieved 20/20, and I average lower than 28 putts per round, anecdote) Keep in mind the best players in the world only putt 30% at 12 ft.

 

I do believe from what i have studied, is that even an average amateur player can do a well enough job of reading the putt.

Maybe usually missing low due to break reads vs apex reads (another story). but starting the ball on the intended line with the optimal speed and roll is the majority of the issues.

 

Some will just roll over and say 

Mallet, long sight line..... to help those 6 ft putts.

But the cases do exist where these are not helping you at all.

based on eye comfort. COG, face tech, static and dynamic application of the stroke and putter.

 

The game is so satisfying, yet so maddeningly frustrating!!

Edited by SnowmanShanks
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TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

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On 12/20/2020 at 7:03 PM, SnowmanShanks said:

My findings.

 

I have been looking for a Bonafide place to put and share my experience on the putting surface over the last 3 years. I have settled on the space right here.

My Apologies if this has been covered before, but I looked high and low. I also am tired of trying to help people fitting in a golf store when I dont work there.

Currently I am a 2.5 Handicap, I can score anywhere from 65 to 82 on any given day. I keep track of everything I do, even long range days.

After graduating in Mathematics with some professional athletes in my family, I decided to spend my time on a putting green (It kind of marries the two,

the physical application of geometry) Roughly 3 - 5 hours per day

My testing was done on greens at 9 stimp and at 12 stimp. the findings between the speeds were almost irrelevant (for Aim)

I own 14 different synthetic putting greens and have also owned over 40 putters at one time. My nearby brother also built a sand based double cut 250

sq ft putting green outdoors, which I visit often. Also have vast q-tec knowledge after extensive use.

 

For any of the Below I would recommend before shape fitting, to properly fit your length and lie.

 

Distance of face to hosel length ie. 3/4 1/2 full shaft offset no offset

The greater the amount of offset, the greater tendency to aim to the hook side. If you tend to leave your putter open this may help you.

Ideal is obviously square, however most PGA pros will find that the putter face open 1 degree is much better than closed 1 degree.

Not exact science just my research.

 

Toe hang.

This is a tough one for me to distinguish. I have heard more vs less, etc, closure rates. etc.

Modern logic will tell you that a higher toe hang weight (pointing down when horizontal) will slow the putter face down and leave open.

I cannot imagine this to be true. For a late release or a faster closer rate and forward ball position, I have witnessed the exact opposite.

More toe hang will result in ball moving further towards the hook side. Most golfers have higher closure rates. (static vs dynamic aim angle)

(With respect to the closure rates and toe hang, most club golfers rotate the face ALOT. After my research I have noticed the best closure rates around 15 degrees to 10 ROC. This is very small but still not Square to Square face balanced)

If you release the club late or release the club to square from the inside, you would be better served on 45 degree hang or less.

Toe hang has never been an exact science. I found it difficult to quantify.

If your putter has lots of toe hang, I would not recommend moving ball placement forward by more than 1 ball.

 

Flat back vs rounded (less flat)

This is the perpendicular side to your putting line. A flat rear will cause you to unknowingly aim your putter towards the hook side.

A more rounded putter will cause you to aim towards the slice side.

There is *some* causation variables happening here and will explain in next section.

 

Distance from Rear to front of putter

The longer the distance from the back of the putter to the front, the more likely your aim tendency will be towards the slice side.

The shorter the distance, the more towards the hook side.

Here is where we experienced an extra variable because finding round and shallow depth length putters were slightly difficult as there are not many.

Also in my findings I found it difficult for mallet putters to consistently aim to the hook side (static aim only). 

 

LINES

Lines generally follow distance from front to rear of putter because they will either focus your eye to the back or front.

Topline = decreases distance front to rear. (more hook side aim bias)

Flangeline = increases distance to rear. (more slice side aim bias)

Also a longer line(s) on your putter will cause you to further aim bias on the slice side.

I have also tested 4 different putters with a Dot. 

Dots and lines. or a Dot with a Flange line. The Dot acted as a topline for the most part.

A naked putter could potentially be used either way as some player aim with a perpendicular edge at the rear, or using the flange line.

Railway types of lines also contributed further to aiming on the slice side.

 

Color

For fun we had grouped putters based on colors.

High contrast (red, white, etc.) caused a slight aim bias to the slice side.

Black and dark color caused a slight aim to the hook side.

steel, unfinished, tour mist, caused a slight aim bias to the hook side.

The more colors that were incorporated into the putter increased the magnitude of the bias.

Shaft color was not statistically relevant.

Grip color was not stat relevant.

 

Face balanced vs toe hang

Everyone is different here and I would find out your closure rates before shopping putters based on the degree of toe hang.

I am reluctant to post any findings here. I do believe from our evidence that the amount of offset was as much or of greater importance 

than the amount of toe hang.

 

Other findings

The ideal amount of loft was between 2 and 7 degs. static Loft, AoA, amount of offset and Dynamic loft all need to be measured in unison.

More loft is always better than less loft.

Grooves Helped in nearly every application.

The ideal amount of forward roll was anywhere between -10 to +60 (dependant on AoA, Loft, Dynamic loft)

(this was a variable tested out on slow vs fast greens)

Golfers hit down on the ball more than they realize ( yes even when putting )

Feel = sound = how a putter handles vibration = not statistically relevant

Swing weight can have an absolutely absurd amount of impact on putter delivery, affecting static loft, dynamic loft, dynamic aim, closure rate, vibration, acceleration.

A heavier putter transferred more energy into the ball (20 grams roughly equates 4%, ceterus parabus)

Putting tempo - length of backswing - length of front swing, were all significant to Swing weight and club delivery and had an effect on speed.

a CONSTANT or slowly DECELERATING type stroke usually produced far more consistent results, from player to player

A more round grip will slow closure rate / a flatter or squarer grip will increase it.

A larger grip will slow closure rate / a smaller grip will increase closure rates.

Putter inserts has no stat sig. effect on aim.

Putter inserts vs no insert had an effect on launch and fwd roll, not relevant to the test. However the misses that were relevant increased the magnitude of the miss due to less than ideal launch characteristics on putters without grooves. This is my next test.

High MOI putters had less race rotation as CoG was farther back from face

High MOI putters with and without grooves changes the Launch AoA, and other Dynamic factors.

High MoI putters missing to the hook side caused an increase of magnitude of the miss.

 

Good luck and have fun.

 

If anyone has a question on a putter, we have likely used it, ask away (please for the love of all that is Holy, DO NOT ASK ME HOW A PUTTER FEELS...)

 

Testing process.

Over 3 years.

Each putter on a an 9 and 12 stimp synthetic green (usually) that was perfectly flat at 6 12 and 16 ft.

40 putts per putter between 6 golfers with another 20 or so other golfers rotating through. all varying stroke types and putter uses. 

different dominate eyes, and also interestingly had 2 color blind golfers(omitted from color test)

mis hit putts were omitted from test, putts left short or outside of acceptable range left or right were omitted from test.

 

Left aimer for sure. My tendency is to take club back outside and "pull" my putts. I hate the left miss, any suggestions by chance?

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On 7/2/2021 at 7:52 AM, Nels55 said:

LOL I am putting lights out (for me anyway) at the moment using my stroke lab seven putter with a reverse overlap grip with a round grip run up my lead wrist.  I sure hope this lasts for a while.

Here is a video of my own way of aligning my putting stroke that I made using my Wilson putter a while back:

 

My alignment tested on SAM Putt lab was very good so this works for me.  I wonder if the OP has any experience with alignment training of this or any other sort?  Also would you consider this sort of thing to be inferior to finding a putter that a golfer lines up automatically with no need for such training?  Thanks!

This drill is genius thanks for sharing 

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On 5/21/2021 at 9:42 PM, pfw19 said:

This is a good one too.  I struggle with right aim.  I find everything the OP said to be true, minus the site line data.  I find flange line helps me (personally) aim left and topline gives me aim bias right.  I think the article below is good.  Edel knows how shapes, offset and lines can help aim.  Even if his putter tech is outdated as some say, his ability to fit for aim is widely considered world class. 

 

https://jeffcoston.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Golf-Magazine-Edel-Putters.pdf

 

Thanks for posting. What an interesting article- I’ve also struggled with aiming to the right. I play an Odyssey 10 2 Ball Tour lined and since I put on two Triple Track stickers, my aim has improved. But I still wonder if the curved back of the Ten Two Ball affects my right aim bias still- maybe I wouldn’t have to think about as much if I played a putter with straighter back edges. 

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Yes this is a remarkable thread indeed.

 

To answer your question, I would think making the putter more upright would exacerbate the tendency towards the hook side.  So, I would flatten the lie, assuming there is nothing else amiss (wrong shaft length as an example).  

 

I think of it that if I putt toe up, I would tend to hook the putt; and, toe down would slice it.  When it is just right, it is neutral and goes straight.

 

I could be wrong though and would defer to people smarter than me.

 

 

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On 12/20/2020 at 9:03 PM, SnowmanShanks said:

 

Putting tempo - length of backswing - length of front swing, were all significant to Swing weight and club delivery and had an effect on speed.

a CONSTANT or slowly DECELERATING type stroke usually produced far more consistent results, from player to player

 

 

This is one that has always interested me.  I never really tried to quantify it in my work with folks when I owned my putter company, but short backswing and accelerate through the ball tended to always make their "miss" worse.  In meaning that if the putter they were using caused them to pull or push if they got short and tried to accelerate through those pushes or pulls were either worse or more often.

 

The rounded back never dawned on me to check for tendencies.  I always worried about sight dots and lines, location of them, hosel config(more for aiming than stroke type), and thickness of toplines. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/20/2020 at 9:03 PM, SnowmanShanks said:

My findings.

 

I have been looking for a Bonafide place to put and share my experience on the putting surface over the last 3 years. I have settled on the space right here.

My Apologies if this has been covered before, but I looked high and low. I also am tired of trying to help people fitting in a golf store when I dont work there.

Currently I am a 2.5 Handicap, I can score anywhere from 65 to 82 on any given day. I keep track of everything I do, even long range days.

After graduating in Mathematics with some professional athletes in my family, I decided to spend my time on a putting green (It kind of marries the two,

the physical application of geometry) Roughly 3 - 5 hours per day

My testing was done on greens at 9 stimp and at 12 stimp. the findings between the speeds were almost irrelevant (for Aim)

I own 14 different synthetic putting greens and have also owned over 40 putters at one time. My nearby brother also built a sand based double cut 250

sq ft putting green outdoors, which I visit often. Also have vast q-tec knowledge after extensive use.

 

For any of the Below I would recommend before shape fitting, to properly fit your length and lie.

 

Distance of face to hosel length ie. 3/4 1/2 full shaft offset no offset

The greater the amount of offset, the greater tendency to aim to the hook side. If you tend to leave your putter open this may help you.

Ideal is obviously square, however most PGA pros will find that the putter face open 1 degree is much better than closed 1 degree.

Not exact science just my research.

 

Toe hang.

This is a tough one for me to distinguish. I have heard more vs less, etc, closure rates. etc.

Modern logic will tell you that a higher toe hang weight (pointing down when horizontal) will slow the putter face down and leave open.

I cannot imagine this to be true. For a late release or a faster closer rate and forward ball position, I have witnessed the exact opposite.

More toe hang will result in ball moving further towards the hook side. Most golfers have higher closure rates. (static vs dynamic aim angle)

(With respect to the closure rates and toe hang, most club golfers rotate the face ALOT. After my research I have noticed the best closure rates around 15 degrees to 10 ROC. This is very small but still not Square to Square face balanced)

If you release the club late or release the club to square from the inside, you would be better served on 45 degree hang or less.

Toe hang has never been an exact science. I found it difficult to quantify.

If your putter has lots of toe hang, I would not recommend moving ball placement forward by more than 1 ball.

 

Flat back vs rounded (less flat)

This is the perpendicular side to your putting line. A flat rear will cause you to unknowingly aim your putter towards the hook side.

A more rounded putter will cause you to aim towards the slice side.

There is *some* causation variables happening here and will explain in next section.

 

Distance from Rear to front of putter

The longer the distance from the back of the putter to the front, the more likely your aim tendency will be towards the slice side.

The shorter the distance, the more towards the hook side.

Here is where we experienced an extra variable because finding round and shallow depth length putters were slightly difficult as there are not many.

Also in my findings I found it difficult for mallet putters to consistently aim to the hook side (static aim only). 

 

LINES

Lines generally follow distance from front to rear of putter because they will either focus your eye to the back or front.

Topline = decreases distance front to rear. (more hook side aim bias)

Flangeline = increases distance to rear. (more slice side aim bias)

Also a longer line(s) on your putter will cause you to further aim bias on the slice side.

I have also tested 4 different putters with a Dot. 

Dots and lines. or a Dot with a Flange line. The Dot acted as a topline for the most part.

A naked putter could potentially be used either way as some player aim with a perpendicular edge at the rear, or using the flange line.

Railway types of lines also contributed further to aiming on the slice side.

 

Color

For fun we had grouped putters based on colors.

High contrast (red, white, etc.) caused a slight aim bias to the slice side.

Black and dark color caused a slight aim to the hook side.

steel, unfinished, tour mist, caused a slight aim bias to the hook side.

The more colors that were incorporated into the putter increased the magnitude of the bias.

Shaft color was not statistically relevant.

Grip color was not stat relevant.

 

Face balanced vs toe hang

Everyone is different here and I would find out your closure rates before shopping putters based on the degree of toe hang.

I am reluctant to post any findings here. I do believe from our evidence that the amount of offset was as much or of greater importance 

than the amount of toe hang.

 

Other findings

The ideal amount of loft was between 2 and 7 degs. static Loft, AoA, amount of offset and Dynamic loft all need to be measured in unison.

More loft is always better than less loft.

Grooves Helped in nearly every application.

The ideal amount of forward roll was anywhere between -10 to +60 (dependant on AoA, Loft, Dynamic loft)

(this was a variable tested out on slow vs fast greens)

Golfers hit down on the ball more than they realize ( yes even when putting )

Feel = sound = how a putter handles vibration = not statistically relevant

Swing weight can have an absolutely absurd amount of impact on putter delivery, affecting static loft, dynamic loft, dynamic aim, closure rate, vibration, acceleration.

A heavier putter transferred more energy into the ball (20 grams roughly equates 4%, ceterus parabus)

Putting tempo - length of backswing - length of front swing, were all significant to Swing weight and club delivery and had an effect on speed.

a CONSTANT or slowly DECELERATING type stroke usually produced far more consistent results, from player to player

A more round grip will slow closure rate / a flatter or squarer grip will increase it.

A larger grip will slow closure rate / a smaller grip will increase closure rates.

Putter inserts has no stat sig. effect on aim.

Putter inserts vs no insert had an effect on launch and fwd roll, not relevant to the test. However the misses that were relevant increased the magnitude of the miss due to less than ideal launch characteristics on putters without grooves. This is my next test.

High MOI putters had less race rotation as CoG was farther back from face

High MOI putters with and without grooves changes the Launch AoA, and other Dynamic factors.

High MoI putters missing to the hook side caused an increase of magnitude of the miss.

 

Good luck and have fun.

 

If anyone has a question on a putter, we have likely used it, ask away (please for the love of all that is Holy, DO NOT ASK ME HOW A PUTTER FEELS...)

 

Testing process.

Over 3 years.

Each putter on a an 9 and 12 stimp synthetic green (usually) that was perfectly flat at 6 12 and 16 ft.

40 putts per putter between 6 golfers with another 20 or so other golfers rotating through. all varying stroke types and putter uses. 

different dominate eyes, and also interestingly had 2 color blind golfers(omitted from color test)

mis hit putts were omitted from test, putts left short or outside of acceptable range left or right were omitted from test.

 

Amazing thread and incredible info. I’ve been in the process of fitting myself. I’ve used flange shapes (Odyssey 7, Scotty 5.5) for several years. I realized this week testing alignment with 3 of this style, I’m aiming about 4-6” to the hook side. i tested two ways. First I line up “straight” and mark my line and see it’s well to the hook side. Then I used an alignment mirror set up straight, I set up to thst, then look and it looks like I’m 4-6” to the push side. It’s similar with all 3 putters (2 double bend, one slant neck), a little better if I have the ball slightly forward in my stance. 


Yet I compensate With a push stroke I guess. When aligned correctly because I make putts with aligned to the right (I putt LH, left eye dominant) and miss left when aligned straight. I’m sure I can fix thst once I have my alignment better. 
 

So, reading this, am I right thinking a Spider X (square shape, long feom front to back) with a long alignment line should help compensate for my hook side alignment? 
 

In the past I focused entirely on length and lie (I’m short, fat and have low hands at address) but I realize now I won’t unlock this puzzle until I get the head shape and alignment right. 

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19 minutes ago, philsRHman said:

Amazing thread and incredible info. I’ve been in the process of fitting myself. I’ve used flange shapes (Odyssey 7, Scotty 5.5) for several years. I realized this week testing alignment with 3 of this style, I’m aiming about 4-6” to the hook side. i tested two ways. First I line up “straight” and mark my line and see it’s well to the hook side. Then I used an alignment mirror set up straight, I set up to thst, then look and it looks like I’m 4-6” to the push side. It’s similar with all 3 putters (2 double bend, one slant neck), a little better if I have the ball slightly forward in my stance. 


Yet I compensate With a push stroke I guess. When aligned correctly because I make putts with aligned to the right (I putt LH, left eye dominant) and miss left when aligned straight. I’m sure I can fix thst once I have my alignment better. 
 

So, reading this, am I right thinking a Spider X (square shape, long feom front to back) with a long alignment line should help compensate for my hook side alignment? 
 

In the past I focused entirely on length and lie (I’m short, fat and have low hands at address) but I realize now I won’t unlock this puzzle until I get the head shape and alignment right. 

I unfortunately hate to say that your right.

Length. Lie. Loft. Line. Shape. Centre of gravity. Moment of inertia. Grip type. Putter weight. Putter head weight. Shaft stiffness. Shaft torque. Shaft material. Grooves on face. No insert vs insert. Grip weight. Grip type. Do you putt with a glove. Counter weight. Does it look friendly enough to use.

Face flow. Hosel type. Type of weighting. Sound at impact. Balance point.

What type of ball you use. Launch angle. Top spin or other spin. Consistent roll.

 

And now... all of the above variables but dynamics. During a stroke.

 

It is an absolute Nightmare of a job finding the right perfect fit for everyone.

 

There is no wonder most guys that play alot usually have one driver. One set of irons. But sometimes 10 or 70 putters like me is not uncommon.

 

 

 

 

 

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Spoiler

Gamer WITB

hit the ProV1x from the wrong side... 

TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

T100S 4-5 - T100 6-P - SM9 50.12F    D3    X100TI

SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
ChampChoice NP2 Ozik125 black GPcordPistol 33.85           D5.5

Players4Carbon - GP TVCord - FJ StaSof - FJ AlphaBoa

 

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30 minutes ago, collindm1 said:

Have you tested a 2018 Scotty cameron newport 2 select (with insert) on quintec? If so, what was your optimal loft, lie to achieve proper side spin, top spin, forward roll, speed, etc.? Standard off rack is 3.5 loft with a 70 degree lie angle. 

Hey Collindm. Unfortunately off the rack putter lofts are usually never perfect. I have seen 2.0 to 4.0 on the lofts off the rack. Also the lie angles are never perfect either.

 

In terms of optimal, one would need a precise fitting to determine proper lie and loft for the right amount of launch, skid, and roll.

 

Cheers.

Spoiler

Gamer WITB

hit the ProV1x from the wrong side... 

TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

T100S 4-5 - T100 6-P - SM9 50.12F    D3    X100TI

SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
ChampChoice NP2 Ozik125 black GPcordPistol 33.85           D5.5

Players4Carbon - GP TVCord - FJ StaSof - FJ AlphaBoa

 

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3 hours ago, jomatty said:

Cleveland frontline?

I am going to test this one and the new callaway putters in the spring.

 

Isn't it interesting for a number of years theyre moving the weight back? Now the weight is coming forward.

 

I dont understand why we can't have a putter with adjustable weight locations like a driver.

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Spoiler

Gamer WITB

hit the ProV1x from the wrong side... 

TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

T100S 4-5 - T100 6-P - SM9 50.12F    D3    X100TI

SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
ChampChoice NP2 Ozik125 black GPcordPistol 33.85           D5.5

Players4Carbon - GP TVCord - FJ StaSof - FJ AlphaBoa

 

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On 1/16/2022 at 6:28 PM, Jersey golfer said:

Any thoughts on cross eye dominance and the type of putter?

Jersey Golfer with a Philly logo? …. Paradox

 

This NJ fan, and like you, is also cross eye dominant. My experience has been led me to go with alignment aids- Seemore and Two Ball Triple Track have given me the best results- I tended to aim right with every putter except these two. The Triple Track has been very effective- especially when I use the Callaway balls or draw three lines on another brand. 
 

Good Luck and Let’s Go Devils

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  • 3 weeks later...

This is an awesome thread, and thanks to Snowman and all the others who have posted.

 

Snowman, have you tested the groove technology in the Evnroll putters?  I read that you think grooves are recommended, but wonder about these from Evnroll.

 

Second question is also about Evnroll, their gravity grips.  What are your findings on counterweighted shafts in putters?  Any conclusions?

 

Thanks so very much for your time and expertise.

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On 12/20/2020 at 9:03 PM, SnowmanShanks said:

Putting tempo - length of backswing - length of front swing, were all significant to Swing weight and club delivery and had an effect on speed.

a CONSTANT or slowly DECELERATING type stroke usually produced far more consistent results, from player to player

 

 

 

Firstly SS, let me join others in thanking you for such a great presentation of your extensive data/experience. I would never have the patience to "map" this all out. 73b80a_b5068821460349639dd6aea18ee3cdd7~

 

But I gotta ask.

 

This (bolded) part is puzzling to me. For as long as I can remember I've taken then putter back "short" and accelerated through to the target. I feel it's always helped me keep the face square and decelerating always did just the opposite.

 

And, of course I get that TOO short a backstroke and I'll be "pushing" the ball and perhaps just as likely to ruin the face angle.

 

I've told beginners who've asked, that every shot, from the longest drive to the shortest putt needs the club head to be accelerating into the ball.

 

I get that a pendulum/constant tempo works very well for a lot of players and most Tour pros that I've been watching seem to be very pendulum like. Crenshaw, of course, about as good as there ever was, appeared to have a pendulum type stroke.

 

However, those pros that aren't "pendulum" (except for the pop stroker like Snedeker), seem to take it back a bit shorter and accelerate through.

 

The one thing that hasn't been obvious to me, with Daniel Berger being the sole exception, is an (obvious) decelerating putting stroke. And even he has shortened his backstroke in the last 6 months(?).

 

I constantly see higher handicappers, on partial swings, chips, etc. decel into the ball and it's often a disaster. The smaller muscles come into play (wrists, hands, fingers) trying to slow down the club head and it's almost always a bad thing.

 

So I wonder if you could expand on your statement about the decelerating putting stroke of a consistent putter/player ?

 

TIA

Edited by nsxguy
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Callaway Epic Flash SZ 10.5 Ventus Blue 6S

Ping G425 14.5 Fairway Tour AD TP 6X

Ping G425 MAX 20.5 7 wood Diamana Blue 70 S

Ping G20 5-PW DGS300 Yellow Dot

Ping Glide Pro 48*

Taylormade MG3 52*, 56*, TW 60* DGS200

LAB Mezz Max 35*, RED, Black Accra

Callaway Tour TruTrack Yellow

 

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6 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Firstly SS, let me join others in thanking you for such a great presentation of your extensive data/experience. I would never have the patience to "map" this all out. 73b80a_b5068821460349639dd6aea18ee3cdd7~

 

But I gotta ask.

 

This (bolded) part is puzzling to me. For as long as I can remember I've taken then putter back "short" and accelerated through to the target. I feel it's always helped me keep the face square and decelerating always did just the opposite.

 

And, of course I get that TOO short a backstroke and I'll be "pushing" the ball and perhaps just as likely to ruin the face angle.

 

I've told beginners who've asked, that every shot, from the longest drive to the shortest putt needs the club head to be accelerating into the ball.

 

I get that a pendulum/constant tempo works very well for a lot of players and most Tour pros that I've been watching seem to be very pendulum like. Crenshaw, of course, was one of the best ever.

 

However, those pros that aren't "pendulum" (except for the pop stroker like Snedeker), also seem to take it back a bit shorter and accelerate through.

 

The one thing that hasn't been obvious to me, with Daniel Berger being the sole exception, is an (obvious) decelerating putting stroke. And even he has shortened his backstroke in the last 6 months(?).

 

I constantly see higher handicappers, on partials swing, chips, etc. decel into the ball and it's often a disaster. The smaller muscles come into play (wrists, hands, fingers) trying to slow down the club head and it's almost always a bad thing.

 

So I wonder if you could expand on your statement about the decelerating putting stroke of a consistent putter/player ?

 

TIA


i will defer to the OP who clearly had the knowledge base, but I believe I have read before that the whole “accelerate into putts” thing is just a fallacy and most people either has a consistent speed or decrease in speed coming into impact, whether they realize it or not.  This includes pros and it’s not a swing fault to do so.  
 

And for what it’s worth, I believe I also read last year that the fastest part of the full swing is a bit prior to impact as well the the club head is typically slowing by the time it reaches the ball.  I know I saw a video that Koepka is 5 mph faster about 75% of the way down to the ball than he is at impact. 
 

I’m not going to dig up sources but believe I have read all this before and the old adage about accelerating through the ball - especially on putts - is just a feel that is not real, like many others in golf. 

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@SnowmanShanks

 

Can’t believe this hasn’t come up in this thread yet, but have you tested stability shafts, stroke lab shafts, etc. to see if there is any validity to those?  I noticed in the article you posted on forward COG there was a reference that some say the shaft doesn’t matter but there is evidence it does play a role in gear effect, so I was curious about that.  
 

What an epic thread…nicely done!

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