Putter Shape and its Effects on Aim Bias

[SnowmanShanks]

14 minutes ago, PixlPutterman said:

Any plans on a years long study on putter characteristics that effect speed control 🙂

lighter putters offer greater roll speeds normally if launch and skid are the same as a heavier putter.

heavier putter transfer more energy into the ball. 20 grams heavier was 4% more energy.

so from 340 to 380 could be a 8% increase in energy.

meaning a 8% slower stroke going the same distance 

[Ty_Webb]

1 hour ago, SnowmanShanks said:

lighter putters offer greater roll speeds normally if launch and skid are the same as a heavier putter.

heavier putter transfer more energy into the ball. 20 grams heavier was 4% more energy.

so from 340 to 380 could be a 8% increase in energy.

meaning a 8% slower stroke going the same distance 

 

Out of curiosity - do you happen to know how it works with weight vs speed? So a heavier putter if you vary the speed by 0.1mph does that have a bigger or smaller impact than a lighter putter with a 0.1mph speed differential? Basically, all else being equal would a heavier putter or a lighter putter give you more speed control? 

 

Loving the thread by the way - it's awesome.

[SnowmanShanks]

4 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Out of curiosity - do you happen to know how it works with weight vs speed? So a heavier putter if you vary the speed by 0.1mph does that have a bigger or smaller impact than a lighter putter with a 0.1mph speed differential? Basically, all else being equal would a heavier putter or a lighter putter give you more speed control? 

 

Loving the thread by the way - it's awesome.

What you are talking about is called the mathematical statiscal Deviation of putters at different weights. 

I would love to comment further on this but this was a test done based on horizontal aim bias.

 

Speed of itself is too difficult to test, grooves, launch, dynamic deliver... too many variables to just say one is better than the other.

I would love to measure swingweights and distance deviation with respect to roll out, but i do not have a putt machine and the more advanced gear.

 

[Ty_Webb]

22 minutes ago, SnowmanShanks said:

What you are talking about is called the mathematical statiscal Deviation of putters at different weights. 

I would love to comment further on this but this was a test done based on horizontal aim bias.

 

Speed of itself is too difficult to test, grooves, launch, dynamic deliver... too many variables to just say one is better than the other.

I would love to measure swingweights and distance deviation with respect to roll out, but i do not have a putt machine and the more advanced gear.

 

Fair enough - it feels to me that the heavier putter would have a bigger range of speeds with the speed of the putter, but that may go away if you look at the force required.

[PixlPutterman]

4 hours ago, SnowmanShanks said:

lighter putters offer greater roll speeds normally if launch and skid are the same as a heavier putter.

heavier putter transfer more energy into the ball. 20 grams heavier was 4% more energy.

so from 340 to 380 could be a 8% increase in energy.

meaning a 8% slower stroke going the same distance 

I find I have no prayer of good speed control with anything over 340g.

 

I'm a light putter guy, I'm also a handsy putter

[SnowmanShanks]

1 hour ago, PixlPutterman said:

I find I have no prayer of good speed control with anything over 340g.

 

I'm a light putter guy, I'm also a handsy putter

I have not seen too many handsy putters.

I would imagine they 

Usually have a two way miss.

[PixlPutterman]

53 minutes ago, SnowmanShanks said:

I have not seen too many handsy putters.

I would imagine they 

Usually have a two way miss.

I'm somewhere in between a pop stroke and regular shoulders putter

[bunta]

excuse me guys, i need some undivided attention from @SnowmanShanks for a minute lol.  I am righty with right eye dominance. I game a TM Juno putter with plumbers neck among a couple others but theyre all plumbers.

 

My weakness is my close range putting and one of the problems, is aiming. I have strong tendency to aim right among a slew of other putter stroke tendencies. Even when i think im aiming dead straight at the hole, im told im aimed right lol. i also have a "perception" problem. For instance when im practicing 3/4 footers around the hole. ill drop 5-6 balls around the hole. Some angles i wouldnt have a problem aiming my putter line to the hole, but at some angles i could not track the my putter line to the hole at all. Im not sure if its my body alignment or what, but some angles from the hole gives me grief. When that happens i almost just aim way left and hope it tracks the right line.

 

My last outing before the snow came in was last week. I shot a 79 with four 3 putts.  So yes, i am in dire need of help. Do you have any advise on types of necks or putters i can use to help alleviate this problem ? Or am I a lost cause lol?

 

This is my Sam putter lab results from my fitting.

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by bunta

[SnowmanShanks]

28 minutes ago, bunta said:

excuse me guys, i need some undivided attention from @SnowmanShanks for a minute lol.  I am righty with right eye dominance. I game a TM Juno putter with plumbers neck among a couple others but theyre all plumbers.

 

My weakness is my close range putting and one of the problems, is aiming. I have strong tendency to aim right among a slew of other putter stroke tendencies. Even when i think im aiming dead straight at the hole, im told im aimed right lol. i also have a "perception" problem. For instance when im practicing 3/4 footers around the hole. ill drop 5-6 balls around the hole. Some angles i wouldnt have a problem aiming my putter line to the hole, but at some angles i could not track the my putter line to the hole at all. Im not sure if its my body alignment or what, but some angles from the hole gives me grief. When that happens i almost just aim way left and hope it tracks the right line.

 

Do you have any advise on types of necks or putters i can use to help alleviate this problem ? Or am I a lost cause lol?

 

This is my Sam putter lab results from my fitting. Some other things the fitter told me that i remember are 

1. i have a very consistent stroke. ( im not sure why he said this.. i dont think i do at all)

2. i stand very close to the ball. my eyes directly on top. 

3. i have a very slight arc. Almost straight back straight thru. I was told to consider no toe hang putters. 

 

 

 

your closure rates are Very low. 

fantastic.

you stand close to the ball which is fine.

Youre compensating for your aim bais in multiple ways.

firstly your aim is 2.4 open and your moving your putter towards the right.

youre also toe down going further right.

youre also moving your putter towards the right further pushing your ball right.

with such a low closure rate and standing so close to the ball.

you also need to adjust your lie angle. upright 3 or 4 degrees. and I would also like to see you with an additional 3 degrees of loft from your gamer.

 

let me look at this in more detail

[bunta]

15 minutes ago, SnowmanShanks said:

your closure rates are Very low. 

fantastic.

you stand close to the ball which is fine.

Youre compensating for your aim bais in multiple ways.

firstly your aim is 2.4 open and your moving your putter towards the right.

youre also toe down going further right.

youre also moving your putter towards the right further pushing your ball right.

with such a low closure rate and standing so close to the ball.

you also need to adjust your lie angle. upright 3 or 4 degrees. and I would also like to see you with an additional 3 degrees of loft from your gamer.

 

let me look at this in more detail

 

 appreciate your help. Guess what ?? The fitter did exactly what you said. But he bent my putter 2 degrees upright and only added 1 degrees of loft. He was too afraid to bend more because the bending machine was giving it a hard time. i was told to just test it out but the snow came in. i will bring it to my local guy and see if he can bend it to your recommendation. 

 

Any putter neck recommendations that might help my tendencies ? im very comfortable with my setup and i really dont want to change if i dont have to. i was also told to ease up on the forward press because i have too much sometimes. 

Edited December 25, 2020 by bunta

[SnowmanShanks]

1 minute ago, bunta said:

 

 appreciate your help. Guess what ?? The fitter did exactly what you said. But he bent my putter 2 degrees upright and only added 1 degrees of loft. He was too afraid to bend more because the bending machine was giving it a hard time. i was told to just test it out but the snow came in. i will bring it to my local guy and see if he can bend it to your recommendation. 

 

Any putter neck recommendations that might help ?

double bend hosel with a longer sight line. 

27 Rate of closure is too high to be consistent.

right right right right across the board.

toe down is more right.

your hands are trying to close it down and you make up for it in your path.

way too much acceleration.

youre de lofting your putter so much its shooting the ball into the ground.

 

double bend. counter weighted will likely help for this type of case. long sightline. more loft. at least 5 degrees more.

may even want to try something in black.

 

[bunta]

1 minute ago, SnowmanShanks said:

double bend hosel with a longer sight line. 

27 Rate of closure is too high to be consistent.

right right right right across the board.

toe down is more right.

your hands are trying to close it down and you make up for it in your path.

way too much acceleration.

youre de lofting your putter so much its shooting the ball into the ground.

 

double bend. counter weighted will likely help for this type of case. long sightline. more loft. at least 5 degrees more.

may even want to try something in black.

 

 

Awesome. awesome. Im due for a new putter anyway lol. Thanks for the help man. 

[SnowmanShanks]

7 minutes ago, bunta said:

 

 appreciate your help. Guess what ?? The fitter did exactly what you said. But he bent my putter 2 degrees upright and only added 1 degrees of loft. He was too afraid to bend more because the bending machine was giving it a hard time. i was told to just test it out but the snow came in. i will bring it to my local guy and see if he can bend it to your recommendation. 

 

Any putter neck recommendations that might help my tendencies ? im very comfortable with my setup and i really dont want to change if i dont have to. i was also told to ease up on the forward press because i have too much sometimes. 

sorry for the quick reply, my wife is on me at the moment. Christmas etc etc

[bunta]

Just now, SnowmanShanks said:

sorry for the quick reply, my wife is on me at the moment. Christmas etc etc

 

lol. mine will too if i dont get off my comp.

 

Im just not sure about the double bend. I dont like the look of it. I was hoping you'd say a slant or flow neck. But ill try anything at this point. Its driving me up the wall. 

[SnowmanShanks]

2 minutes ago, bunta said:

 

Awesome. awesome. Im due for a new putter anyway lol. Thanks for the help man. 

its difficult to try and get people to change putters when they are used to something for so long. in your case I would like to see a ping ketch or a odyssey O works. one is a mallet with insert and one is not.

if you like the blade and insert you can also try the double wide blade from odyssey in the stroke lab. you might also find a round oversize grip will help you with aiming. counter weighting will likely help your delivery as well because of you de lofting.

[SnowmanShanks]

2 minutes ago, bunta said:

 

lol. mine will too if i dont get off my comp.

 

Im just not sure about the double bend. I dont like the look of it. I was hoping you'd say a slant or flow neck. But ill try anything at this point. Its driving me up the wall. 

your hosel isn't doing you any favors thats forsure. 

I would also like to see you maybe in 25 gram counter weighted.

with as large a round grip as your comfortable with.

[bunta]

3 minutes ago, SnowmanShanks said:

your hosel isn't doing you any favors thats forsure. 

I would also like to see you maybe in 25 gram counter weighted.

with as large a round grip as your comfortable with.

 

so a slant neck, flow neck or a flare neck is a no go for me then ??

[SnowmanShanks]

27 minutes ago, bunta said:

 

so a slant neck, flow neck or a flare neck is a no go for me then ??

it looks like the plumbers neck and your hands are just trying to close everything down because of how open you are...

might take a little adjusting

[jomatty]

What type putter would you suggest for someone with cross dominant eyes (right handed left eye dominant) with a tendency to leave the face open?  I recently got something to measure face angle at impact and I was amazed at how open I fanned the putter in the backstroke and that I almost always had the face open at impact.  I’ve been working on it but it is a struggle to consistently have my face angle at impact less than 1 degree open and it will jump very high on poor strokes.  Amazing that a stroke that appears to stay closed can actually be opening 4-5 degrees...

any advice on putters or otherwise is appreciated.  Right now I’m alternating between a spider x and a Toulon Las Vegas h7 (slant neck).  
I use a line on the ball and now use the line on the putter in conjunction with it to try to start the putter square, as I was starting with the face closed without even realizing it.
Merry Christmas and Thank You for the time it took to put this great thread together!

Edited December 25, 2020 by jomatty

[SnowmanShanks]

4 hours ago, jomatty said:

What type putter would you suggest for someone with cross dominant eyes (right handed left eye dominant) with a tendency to leave the face open?  I recently got something to measure face angle at impact and I was amazed at how open I fanned the putter in the backstroke and that I almost always had the face open at impact.  I’ve been working on it but it is a struggle to consistently have my face angle at impact less than 1 degree open and it will jump very high on poor strokes.  Amazing that a stroke that appears to stay closed can actually be opening 4-5 degrees...

any advice on putters or otherwise is appreciated.  Right now I’m alternating between a spider x and a Toulon Las Vegas h7 (slant neck).  
I use a line on the ball and now use the line on the putter in conjunction with it to try to start the putter square, as I was starting with the face closed without even realizing it.
Merry Christmas and Thank You for the time it took to put this great thread together!

too difficult to tell without knowing how you deliver the putter. 

there are so many things going on. static aim is one thing. dynamic delivery is another. I can try to help but I am not a fitter!

those are 2 beautiful putters. 

but with the same neck and offset and size. 3/4 shaft

have you tried anything else?

sounds like a plumbers neck blade might help you close it down.

but I really just focused my time on trying to help people aim. and doing so just noticed some things.

[cmporto10]

@SnowmanShanksreviving this to pick your brain. I’m right handed and left eye dominant. I aim left of target. My path is sbst but my face rotates more than a typical sbst stroke. To combat the left aim bias, I tend to open the face on the back stroke, and leave it open at the point of contact. Any suggestions?

[KodakkuSensei]

I have one question.

 

Since our eyes are orb shape (sort of), and what we are looking at when eyes are over the ball is bended (very very very slightly but should be able to throw off alignment), would it make sense if we always try to setup the putter face square (vertical to the aim line) in the middle point between our stance and focus our sight to the putter face?

 

This is just my guess, but it's just that we humans are very bad at aligning horizontal straight lines, and I think aligning a vertical line is much easier. 

 

If what I said make sense, then I think sightline on flange is one of the stupidest designs in the industry

 

[TimBuma]

What a fascinating thread!!!

[TimBuma]

I’ve tried numerous different styles of putter heads and would always go towards a mallet when I was putting bad because they have more of an alignment aid and “more forgiving.” Id always seem to putt worse. Come to find out I launch mallets too high and actually find more alignment too distracting. I much prefer a blade style putter with sharp lines as I can line that up much easier compared to a putter with a rounded back edge. I’ve taken a few variables out of the picture as I know what definitely doesn’t work for me. Seems like blades with a line on front of putter are most ideal for myself.

[Honeybadger]

On 5/16/2021 at 8:21 AM, cmporto10 said:

@SnowmanShanksreviving this to pick your brain. I’m right handed and left eye dominant. I aim left of target. My path is sbst but my face rotates more than a typical sbst stroke. To combat the left aim bias, I tend to open the face on the back stroke, and leave it open at the point of contact. Any suggestions?

I am left eye dominant and RH, but my problem is aiming right. I’ve compensated with a “pull,” but it’s very unreliable. I need to fix my aim. 

[shanx]

How do you find out which eye is dominant?

This is fascinating stuff, I am not a great putter, but not terrible. I seem to have speed control down, just picking the right line...

[Ty_Webb]

1 hour ago, shanx said:

How do you find out which eye is dominant?

This is fascinating stuff, I am not a great putter, but not terrible. I seem to have speed control down, just picking the right line...

 

Mark a spot on a piece of paper (or pick a letter on your computer screen or something like that). Make a circle with your thumb and forefinger. With both eyes open, put the circle so the mark is in the middle of the hole. Then close each eye alternately. If you can still see the mark through the hole, then the open eye is the dominant eye. Do it with both hands to double check.

[shanx]

31 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Mark a spot on a piece of paper (or pick a letter on your computer screen or something like that). Make a circle with your thumb and forefinger. With both eyes open, put the circle so the mark is in the middle of the hole. Then close each eye alternately. If you can still see the mark through the hole, then the open eye is the dominant eye. Do it with both hands to double check.

 

Left eye dominant, right handed.

 

Should I buy more putters now?

[VA golfer]

so based on my current putter center shafted modern bullseye full toe hang stainless steel finish.

It looks like most of your info you have provided most of the associated tendencies cancel each other out.

Zero offset=slice side

Flat back=hook side

Short distance front to back=hook side

Flange line=slice side

Unfinished=hook side

Maybe since alot of these cancel each other out I don't feel as if I am steering my putter anymore. This is the first putter that I have owned that I don't feel as if I am steering it during the stroke.

Prior to buying this putter I was always fighting a left side miss. Which is funny because almost every putter I played before was a mallet with long sight lines which should have me aiming slice side. Maybe in my mind i was correcting the aim in my stroke. I also think with the full toe hang it fits my stroke better since most of the other putters were faced balanced or minimal toe hang. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your data. It should help alot of trial and error without doing a putter fitting. 

[SnowmanShanks]

sorry guys I have been busy. I just finished a 70 ft outdoor green for additional testing