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Putter Shape and its Effects on Aim Bias


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blue side. level.

red side. slightly breaking right left right left up down up down

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6 minutes ago, SnowmanShanks said:

IMG-20210519-WA0007.jpeg.9aa75e3dc8dee7819177ed6e76544b44.jpeg

 

On 12/22/2020 at 11:24 PM, MattUtah said:

Did you test CoG backwards vs more forwards? 
 

I would be especially interested in how this fares in mallets with similar MOI. One example being the Odyssey Marxman vs Ten (or TM Spider). Ten/Spider is back CoG, Marxman is much more forward and they have nearly equal MOI numbers I think.  Feels like the back CoG closes much slower and I wonder how detrimental that becomes over a certain range. Something to consider. Lots of companies trying to push CoG more forward now like Frontline, Spider FCG and Bettinardi 6.0. 
 

Cool test! 

FWD COG is far better

 

it's a difficult calculation.

I will hopefully post my physics formulas later.

 

bit every mm backwards increased the Moi but centre face misses contributed to more hook or slice spin and effectively less over spin under most conditions.

 

I will absolutely never use a mallet for this reason without at least some sort of groove tech. I will post my advanced findings tomorrow

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On 12/25/2020 at 5:53 AM, jomatty said:

What type putter would you suggest for someone with cross dominant eyes (right handed left eye dominant) with a tendency to leave the face open?  I recently got something to measure face angle at impact and I was amazed at how open I fanned the putter in the backstroke and that I almost always had the face open at impact.  I’ve been working on it but it is a struggle to consistently have my face angle at impact less than 1 degree open and it will jump very high on poor strokes.  Amazing that a stroke that appears to stay closed can actually be opening 4-5 degrees...

any advice on putters or otherwise is appreciated.  Right now I’m alternating between a spider x and a Toulon Las Vegas h7 (slant neck).  
I use a line on the ball and now use the line on the putter in conjunction with it to try to start the putter square, as I was starting with the face closed without even realizing it.
Merry Christmas and Thank You for the time it took to put this great thread together!

plumbers neck absolutely.  with as much offset you can find

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3 hours ago, VA golfer said:

so based on my current putter center shafted modern bullseye full toe hang stainless steel finish.

It looks like most of your info you have provided most of the associated tendencies cancel each other out.

Zero offset=slice side

Flat back=hook side

Short distance front to back=hook side

Flange line=slice side

Unfinished=hook side

Maybe since alot of these cancel each other out I don't feel as if I am steering my putter anymore. This is the first putter that I have owned that I don't feel as if I am steering it during the stroke.

Prior to buying this putter I was always fighting a left side miss. Which is funny because almost every putter I played before was a mallet with long sight lines which should have me aiming slice side. Maybe in my mind i was correcting the aim in my stroke. I also think with the full toe hang it fits my stroke better since most of the other putters were faced balanced or minimal toe hang. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your data. It should help alot of trial and error without doing a putter fitting. 

there's a reason why you don't play anyone for money when they use a bullseye putter

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TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

T100S 4-5 - T100 6-P - SM9 50.12F    D3    X100TI

SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
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This is a great thread - regarding alignment lines on putters....

 

You say top lines generally are a hook bias and slice bias for a flange line - When you say hook bias does that mean you'd aim left (for a right handed golfer) or does that mean you aim right to accompany a hook?

 

I struggle with alignment - I've always been a flange line guy but typically I aim left (I'm a righty) so I'm trying to find something that helps me aim a little bit more on line.  I'm typically use an Anser/Newport 2 with a plumbers neck so any recommendations would be greatly appreciated if there's a different style neck or bias I should be leaning towards.

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10 minutes ago, Hokie2k5 said:

This is a great thread - regarding alignment lines on putters....

 

You say top lines generally are a hook bias and slice bias for a flange line - When you say hook bias does that mean you'd aim left (for a right handed golfer) or does that mean you aim right to accompany a hook?

 

I struggle with alignment - I've always been a flange line guy but typically I aim left (I'm a righty) so I'm trying to find something that helps me aim a little bit more on line.  I'm typically use an Anser/Newport 2 with a plumbers neck so any recommendations would be greatly appreciated if there's a different style neck or bias I should be leaning towards.

not what i had said, i think what you mean is your static aim will be biased on one vs the other, the way you deliver the putter is independent from aim 

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TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

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file:///C:/Users/pelus/Downloads/proceedings-49-00002%20(1).pdf

 

one study

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hit the ProV1x from the wrong side... 

TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

T100S 4-5 - T100 6-P - SM9 50.12F    D3    X100TI

SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
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hit the ProV1x from the wrong side... 

TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

T100S 4-5 - T100 6-P - SM9 50.12F    D3    X100TI

SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
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On 5/20/2021 at 4:42 AM, jomatty said:

I’ve wondered about going this route.  Most seem to say that cross dominant folks need as little offset as possible, but a plumbers neck does look very square to me.  

i am personally cross dominate and i also struggle with the release, and spin metrics, the more offset i have, the better the roll is, the more the ball tracks to the hook side, but my static aim is much better

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Gamer WITB

hit the ProV1x from the wrong side... 

TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

T100S 4-5 - T100 6-P - SM9 50.12F    D3    X100TI

SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
ChampChoice NP2 Ozik125 black GPcordPistol 33.85           D5.5

Players4Carbon - GP TVCord - FJ StaSof - FJ AlphaBoa

 

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This is a good one too.  I struggle with right aim.  I find everything the OP said to be true, minus the site line data.  I find flange line helps me (personally) aim left and topline gives me aim bias right.  I think the article below is good.  Edel knows how shapes, offset and lines can help aim.  Even if his putter tech is outdated as some say, his ability to fit for aim is widely considered world class. 

 

https://jeffcoston.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Golf-Magazine-Edel-Putters.pdf

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I recently went to a putter fitting and these were my best numbers with a LAB B.2 putter. Not sold on the putter and was curious if you saw anything in these numbers. I’m right handed and right eye dominant. My tendency is to miss short putts to the right. I was putting with

an Evnroll ER8 previous to this and have the numbers from that putter on SAM as well if those are helpful.

B9C49BD8-C406-4E54-914E-B3BB4BA75C3A.png

555C8C48-CB16-420F-90E2-E4E51CE425D2.png

A299BBA8-5194-4E25-8734-C1D18D5DE566.png

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@SnowmanShanksI want to come putt in your backyard. 

 

As for me and aiming I've found the best shapes are straight lines and squared off edges, they can be softened or even rounded bumpers but the leading and trailing edge have to be a straight line. Offset half shaft or less and I can putt that thing lights out. 

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On 5/21/2021 at 8:42 PM, pfw19 said:

This is a good one too.  I struggle with right aim.  I find everything the OP said to be true, minus the site line data.  I find flange line helps me (personally) aim left and topline gives me aim bias right.  I think the article below is good.  Edel knows how shapes, offset and lines can help aim.  Even if his putter tech is outdated as some say, his ability to fit for aim is widely considered world class. 

 

https://jeffcoston.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Golf-Magazine-Edel-Putters.pdf

 

Crazy how our eyes are different. I struggle with aiming right also, but find a line on the top line of the putter helps me aim better than one on the flange.

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On 6/12/2021 at 5:23 AM, littletimbo182 said:

Any thoughts on the new Cobra putters and the DLT tech?

Not sure about the 3D design but they do look fancy to me. I am using SIK putter so I am quite familiar with the DLT tech and it does give you a more consistent roll. I feel like with this lower price range, cobra is able to let a lot more people to get a taste of the DLT without cutting a hole in their wallet is quite a good idea, and the 3D design is a nice cherry on top.

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  • 3 weeks later...

What about putter length... my miss is slice side... specially with short putts... i find that a longer putter 35in.. stands me up more and squares me up on the shorter ones.. i had a odyssey og 7s i just returned because it cost me at least for putts which i could have shot into the 70s... now obviously its not all the putters fault but i felt so uncomfortable specially after the first 3 rounds with it i thought i was in love... the last 3 were a nightmare. Also... short slant or double bend... could the short slant be aiding this miss right?

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LOL I am putting lights out (for me anyway) at the moment using my stroke lab seven putter with a reverse overlap grip with a round grip run up my lead wrist.  I sure hope this lasts for a while.

Here is a video of my own way of aligning my putting stroke that I made using my Wilson putter a while back:

 

My alignment tested on SAM Putt lab was very good so this works for me.  I wonder if the OP has any experience with alignment training of this or any other sort?  Also would you consider this sort of thing to be inferior to finding a putter that a golfer lines up automatically with no need for such training?  Thanks!

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Well, I have found out (at least in my case) that if I try to aim using my eye then it's just too unstable and vulnerable to changes and environment. Now I just try to use my putter like any other clubs and aim with my heart. My putter has been good ever since.  

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 5/21/2021 at 12:16 PM, SnowmanShanks said:

 

Nice work, very convincing that minimizing the depth of the CoG is optimal (given the scale of the footprint of a putter head).  My intuition was the opposite, but as you show I was not taking into account the scale limitations.

 

Similar to you and your coauthors, I was surprised by direction of the asymmetry between heel/toe strikes (with heel strikes being less accurate).  I too had the intuition that if anything the shaft (due to is heel attachment) would make cause heel strikes deviate less. 

 

Any thoughts on if this is experimental error vs model error?

 

Have you tried collecting data from other putters to see if the asymmetry persists?  You could use an actual putters for this, since you are just testing to see if the asymmetry is there, and in particular it would be interesting to test for the asymmetry with a face-balanced center-shafted putter.

 

If it is not experimental, maybe considering the effect of toe hang partially explains the asymmetry?  Configuration A missed left (compared to your model) for both heel and toe strikes and likely has considerable toe hang.  While Configuration B with less toe hang missed left for heel and right for toe.

 

How did you actually experimental measure \phi? At the scale you are working, I imagine measuring displacement from target line ~10'+ from contact is more accurate than trying to actually measure the initial angle near contact. 

 

Given your N=10 and your error bars, I am slightly surprised you actually got a mean of 0* on the nose for center hits.  Is this real or did you normalize the data?

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  • 2 months later...
On 12/22/2020 at 9:34 PM, Fairway14 said:

David Edel maintains that the Bullseye putter shape is by far the easiest putter to align at address. I agree.

 

He also maintains that a line on the topline helps you aim more right. Which I very much agree with but seems to be contrary to what the OP found. Bringing the eyes higher and more forward means more right side bias. Still a fantastic write up by the OP.

 

Would have loved to hear how grip effected aim bias. Shapes and sizes are a massive influence on aim bias from my experience.

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5 hours ago, gunmetal said:

 

He also maintains that a line on the topline helps you aim more right. Which I very much agree with but seems to be contrary to what the OP found. Bringing the eyes higher and more forward means more right side bias. Still a fantastic write up by the OP.

 

Would have loved to hear how grip effected aim bias. Shapes and sizes are a massive influence on aim bias from my experience.

Slice side bias. 

Not right.

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hit the ProV1x from the wrong side... 

TSR3   9.0                                               D3    Velocore Black 6X Tip .5" 44.85" 117.8 mph @ 10.7 deg - 2350 rpm - 171 BS   

TSR2  15.0                                              D3   ACCRA TZ5 M5 Gen2 80 proto Tip .5" 43"

TS2    18.0                                              D3   Rogue 130msi White TX80 41"

T100S 4-5 - T100 6-P - SM9 50.12F    D3    X100TI

SM9 56.14F - 60.08M                            D4    S400TI
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following great thread

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34 minutes ago, gunmetal said:

 

A Slice goes right. 

 

Not sure if I'm just not understanding you, but a line on the top line will help a golfer who tends to aim left, begin to aim more right. So can a longer putter. 

 

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@SnowmanShanks

 

Fabulous thread, thanks for sharing your research👏

 

Just why this forum is peerless.

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      Cameron putter covers - 2024 US Open
      New UST Mamiya Linq shaft - 2024 US Open

       

       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 5 replies
    • Titleist GT drivers - 2024 the Memorial Tournament
      Early in hand photos of the new GT2 models t the truck.  As soon as they show up on the range in player's bags we'll get some better from the top photos and hopefully some comparison photos against the last model.
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
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      • 356 replies
    • 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Monday #1
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #1
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #2
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Keith Mitchell - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Rafa Campos - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      R Squared - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Martin Laird - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Paul Haley - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Tyler Duncan - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Min Woo Lee - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Austin Smotherman - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Lee Hodges - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Eric Cole's newest custom Cameron putter - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      New Super Stroke Marvel comic themed grips - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Ben Taylor's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Tyler Duncan's Axis 1 putter - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Cameron putters - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Chris Kirk's new Callaway Opus wedges - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      ProTC irons - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Dragon Skin 360 grips - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Cobra prototype putters - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      SeeMore putters - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 0 replies
    • 2024 PGA Championship - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put  any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 PGA Championship - Monday #1
       
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Michael Block - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Patrick Reed - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Cam Smith - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Brooks Koepka - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Josh Speight - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Takumi Kanaya - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Kyle Mendoza - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Adrian Meronk - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Jordan Smith - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Jeremy Wells - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Jared Jones - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      John Somers - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Larkin Gross - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Tracy Phillips - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Jon Rahm - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Keita Nakajima - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Kazuma Kobori - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      David Puig - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Ryan Van Velzen - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Ping putter covers - 2024 PGA Championship
      Bettinardi covers - 2024 PGA Championship
      Cameron putter covers - 2024 PGA Championship
      Max Homa - Titleist 2 wood - 2024 PGA Championship
      Scotty Cameron experimental putter shaft by UST - 2024 PGA Championship
       
       
       
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      • 13 replies

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