PGA of America - DMD’s

[Soloman1]

Yardage books are already down to a yard accuracy for bunker, water carries, green sides, etc. What's the point?

 

We're headed to the day when tournaments are held in indoor simulators and VR headsets will fill the players and fans heads with steaming, heaping piles of useless crap. Oh, wait. We already have that. It's called TV.

 

Hey, I just had a great idea. I'm going to make a laser you can lease cheaply by the month and it comes with advertising in the viewfinder and audible output.

 

"You have 162 yards... If you bought Brand X irons, you'd be hitting a 9-iron..."

"Get a drink at Joe's Sports Bar down the street after the round..."

 

Perfect, right? Another annoying thing to annoy us more.

[Hawkeye77]

8 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Yardage books are already down to a yard accuracy for bunker, water carries, green sides, etc. What's the point?

 

We're headed to the day when tournaments are held in indoor simulators and VR headsets will fill the players and fans heads with steaming, heaping piles of useless crap. Oh, wait. We already have that. It's called TV.

 

Hey, I just had a great idea. I'm going to make a laser you can lease cheaply by the month and it comes with advertising in the viewfinder and audible output.

 

"You have 162 yards... If you bought Brand X irons, you'd be hitting a 9-iron..."

"Get a drink at Joe's Sports Bar down the street after the round..."

 

Perfect, right? Another annoying thing to annoy us more.

LOL, I recall having to ride in a golf cart that had some sort of screen pimping whatever --- it's here!

[driveandputtmachine]

On 2/9/2021 at 1:24 PM, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

 

A good caddie should have all of that available, while also doing a lot more than simply providing a yardage. 

 

If there are pace of play concerns they should think about more strictly enforcing pace of play. Or make the guys learn to not need a rules official at every turn. 

Patrick Reed agrees

[Mcfly]

“I don’t know how it happened.  I have no idea how it got on Slope Mode.”

Patrick Reed 

[bladehunter]

Interesting quote from Patrick cantlay this morning.  “ what will be interesting is when the next step , allowing us to use carts hits , the caddies will be in trouble then “. ( paraphrasing but that’s very close to exact ) 

 

I found that funny since that was a thought I had initially “ what’s next.  Carts and handicaps “ ?   
 

of a the pro and former pro quotes they have this morning.  Collin Morikawa was The only one for it.  To a person they all said “ we will still walk it off to check.  Not going to just shoot the top of the bunker and go “.   

Edited February 11, 2021 by bladehunter

[RSonn]

Putting aside what this might do or not do to the pros game, are any of the tour guys going to risk changing their normal tournament routine to just try this out during a major championship? For the most part they all seem to stick to what works for them and I think throwing a range finder in the mix might be something they don’t even consider.   I hope it turns into them only using them when off the map so the process of getting back into play speeds up.  I feel like the standard yardages are pretty quickly figured but when Jordan Speith hits it 100 yards off the fairway I think that process would be sped up.  Also the argument of they should be punished and have to work for the yardage I don’t agree with.  At the end of the day I think all caddies will come to a good yardage even when way out of place. My not just give them a tool to speed up that process. 

[Creedo77]

37 minutes ago, RSonn said:

I hope it turns into them only using them when off the map so the process of getting back into play speeds up.  I feel like the standard yardages are pretty quickly figured but when Jordan Speith hits it 100 yards off the fairway I think that process would be sped up.  Also the argument of they should be punished and have to work for the yardage I don’t agree with.  At the end of the day I think all caddies will come to a good yardage even when way out of place. My not just give them a tool to speed up that process. 

But this is what sets caddies apart. The ability to come up with those numbers like Greller did at the Open. Introducing rangefinders evens the playing field for caddies who don’t do their course work and let me tell ya some weeks it’s tougher than others 

[bladehunter]

27 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

But this is what sets caddies apart. The ability to come up with those numbers like Greller did at the Open. Introducing rangefinders evens the playing field for caddies who don’t do their course work and let me tell ya some weeks it’s tougher than others 

Exactly. All this will do is help the lazy or less prepared caddies.  People discount the caddies contribution to the player all the time.  And that’s wrong thinking.  This will help some guys unfairly.  
 

and all this “ makes it look like our game “ farce is crazy.    When will people realize it’s not the same game?  All you had to do was watch  the celebrity deal from pebble yesterday to know that.   

Edited February 11, 2021 by bladehunter

[tungstenplug]

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Edited February 26, 2023 by tungstenplug

[Creedo77]

23 minutes ago, tungstenplug said:

 

 

I don't see a laser evening the playing field for caddies. Giving the player a good number to the flag or covering a bunker is day 1 stuff. If that's all that mattered, everyone would be hiring "El Tucan" and paying him $5K after a win like Kuchar did. Many more nuances to the player/caddie partnership than just yardages after a bad tee shot. Plus, who's trying to hit their ball the number the laser gave them? A lot more to factor in after getting that number

 

The best caddies will continue to be the best with or without a laser and I'm having a hard time seeing an underprepared caddie all of a sudden being an all-star with the help of a laser. That's giving the laser way too much credit. A good caddie is not easily replaced

 

I’ve caddied for the past 3 years on the Korn Ferry Tour. There are some guys I hardly ever see walking the course on Mon-Wed going over their yardage book and getting missing sprinkler heads so that they have that info for their player. 
 

If You give all of us a rangefinder and that laziness is rewarded. Yes, it’s not just about shooting a number but there is a certain skill in obtaining obscure numbers from different angles, the rangefinder takes that skills away and that’s one of the differences that sets caddies apart.

 

EDIT: Here's Kip Henley explaining that Greller number today on twitter

 

"And !!! Two things. Greller spoke to me and said he had the number figured in a few seconds. They couldn’t see the green from there so laser was useless and it took so long because of a ruling with trailers in the way not getting a number. So hush !"

 

 

Here's an article about the reaction from other tour caddies about it

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rangefinders-pga-tour-pga-championship-webb-simpson-paul-tesori-rickie-fowler-john-wood-nbc-golf-channel?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=golfdigest

Edited February 11, 2021 by Creedo77

[tungstenplug]

On 2/11/2021 at 9:42 AM, Creedo77 said:

I’ve caddied for the past 3 years on the Korn Ferry Tour. There are some guys I hardly ever see walking the course on Mon-Wed going over their yardage book and getting missing sprinkler heads so that they have that info for their player. 
 

If You give all of us a rangefinder and that laziness is rewarded. Yes, it’s not just about shooting a number but there is a certain skill in obtaining obscure numbers from different angles, the rangefinder takes that skills away and that’s one of the differences that sets caddies apart.

 

You are saying a laser makes caddying easier

Edited February 26, 2023 by tungstenplug

[bladehunter]

53 minutes ago, tungstenplug said:

 

 

I don't see a laser evening the playing field for caddies. Giving the player a good number to the flag or covering a bunker is day 1 stuff. If that's all that mattered, everyone would be hiring "El Tucan" and paying him $5K after a win like Kuchar did. Many more nuances to the player/caddie partnership than just yardages after a bad tee shot. Plus, who's trying to hit their ball the number the laser gave them? A lot more to factor in after getting that number

 

The best caddies will continue to be the best with or without a laser and I'm having a hard time seeing an underprepared caddie all of a sudden being an all-star with the help of a laser. That's giving the laser way too much credit. A good caddie is not easily replaced

 

You pretty much just said exactly what I said.  That many discount caddies way too much. While a finder won’t make a slacker great.  It will let a slacker  survive longer.  
 

im entirely against artificial job security 

 

but the greater point is. Why ?  What is the perceived  benefit here ?  And what’s next on this slippery slope ?  Shorts and carts ? Maybe handicapping so that the journeymen can win ? 

Edited February 11, 2021 by bladehunter

[Creedo77]

37 minutes ago, tungstenplug said:

 

You are saying a laser makes caddying easier (I mostly disagree). You implied that a lazy caddie doesn't have to walk the course as much mon-wed and would still get obscure yardages during competition because of a laser. Doesn't that mean a hard working caddie like yourself will now have more time to assist their player in other ways? No more worrying about walking off obscure yardages on mon-weds, the laser will take care of it. You can now focus on a different part of the game, right? Could actually be a benefit overall depending on what you choose to do with the extra time

Well, in a way were still going to have to walk the course with our books to get sprinkler heads that are missing because we need the front numbers. Obviously, one could shoot the flag and subtract but that would make me feel like I'm cheating the guy who is paying me to go out and do the work. I'm guessing the guys who don't do this regularly could still get away with not doing it. 

 

We all use rangefinders before Thursday to get obscure distances. Whether thats a cover on something that the book doesnt have, a number to the front where we think our player will end up at some point, or to double check front numbers if we hear of any major differences from other caddies. 

 

Overall, the notion (like i think you pointed out) of simply pointing, clicking, and having a number isn't exactly what goes into the job. I think most players/caddies are still going to go through the book, walk off the # so that there is no confusion. The decision to use them just seems rather pointless, unless like many others have said is if you're wayward off the tee, but that goes back to the art of the job of being able to come up with a number in that instance. It would take that aspect of the job away. I'll add that its a myth that they will speed up play. With field sizes at 144 or 156 we're still going to be slow at times. Pros as we know are playing for a ton of cash and life changing opportunities, why do we want to speed them up through this process?

 

I'll also say that I really hope the slope doesnt get turned on by accident. I was doing the RSM monday last fall and on the 8th hole the other caddie shoots the flag for his player and notices the slope has somehow been turned while walking, 2 stroke penalty. Luckily, it didn't matter in the end for them but in real tournament play those 2 shots could amount to some serious opportunites/money lost. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Creedo77

[bladehunter]

23 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

Well, in a way were still going to have to walk the course with our books to get sprinkler heads that are missing because we need the front numbers. Obviously, one could shoot the flag and subtract but that would make me feel like I'm cheating the guy who is paying me to go out and do the work. I'm guessing the guys who don't do this regularly could still get away with not doing it. 

 

We all use rangefinders before Thursday to get obscure distances. Whether thats a cover on something that the book doesnt have, a number to the front where we think our player will end up at some point, or to double check front numbers if we hear of any major differences from other caddies. 

 

Overall, the notion (like i think you pointed out) of simply pointing, clicking, and having a number isn't exactly what goes into the job. I think most players/caddies are still going to go through the book, walk off the # so that there is no confusion. The decision to use them just seems rather pointless, unless like many others have said is if you're wayward off the tee, but that goes back to the art of the job of being able to come up with a number in that instance. It would take that aspect of the job away. I'll add that its a myth that they will speed up play. With field sizes at 144 or 156 we're still going to be slow at times. Pros as we know are playing for a ton of cash and life changing opportunities, why do we want to speed them up through this process?

 

I'll also say that I really hope the slope doesnt get turned on by accident. I was doing the RSM monday last fall and on the 8th hole the other caddie shoots the flag for his player and notices the slope has somehow been turned while walking, 2 stroke penalty. Luckily, it didn't matter in the end for them but in real tournament play those 2 shots could amount to some serious opportunites/money lost. 

Bingo.  I refuse to use a finder with slope anymore.  I never used the function anyway as I never trusted it. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve found it accidentally on with the bushnell that  died on me last summer.  So easy to slide the button on.  And any state associated or USga am event isn’t allowing slope.  

[tungstenplug]

On 2/11/2021 at 10:21 AM, bladehunter said:

You pretty much just said exactly what I said.  That many discount caddies way too much. While a finder won’t make a slacker great.  It will let a slacker  survive longer.  
 

im entirely against artificial job security 

 

but the greater point is. Why ?  What is the perceived  benefit here ?  And what’s next on this slippery slope ?  Shorts and carts ? Maybe handicapping so that the journeymen can win ? 

 

To me it's just become a part of the game. Its a device that's available to everyone, and getting a yardage doesn't help hit the ball, it's just information

 

Reading greens takes more skill than getting yardages in my opinion

Edited February 26, 2023 by tungstenplug

[bladehunter]

15 minutes ago, tungstenplug said:

 

To me it's just become a part of the game. Its a device that's available to everyone, and getting a yardage doesn't help hit the ball, it's just information

 

When we watch golf on TV we see the players yardage on the screen. Either the network had access to course GPS data or the on course reporter lasered it before the player got to his ball. It's public information. They still have to figure out how to get the ball in the hole

 

I agree with anyone who says this won't speed up play. I didn't see it advertised as that so not sure where that idea came from. It should speed up play in the non-competitive game but I'm not sure that it actually does

 

Pros are going to get the yardage one way or another, why not just let them have this option. Some may not even use it. I get the caddy argument you guys made but caddies aren't going anywhere. Their job duties might change slightly, but who's job hasn't changed in the past 30 yrs?

 

Reading greens takes more skill than getting yardages in my opinion

I disagree on it not helping hit the ball.  
 

having an accurate number and accounting for wind etc is paramount to striking the ball correctly.  And by that I mean a number that you trust , not just an accurate number.  A caddie who is right 50 % of the time has a player who misses long , short a lot.  A player who has a consistent track record misses more often left or right.  Not long and short.  Trusting your guy is part of the game.  A good part.  And I don’t want to see that taken away.  Or more accurately given to those players who don’t have gumption enough to build good teams.  
 

of I’m over a ball and it’s in between clubs with trouble front or back ( hazard etc ) if I’m unsure of the number THats  a sure fire recipe for a big bailout  miss. I may as well aim for safety and take the bogey.  I’m a feel player. But that feel includes an accurate number.   I say that number to myself 2-3 times as I setup to the ball.  This tells my hands subconsciously how far were about to hit it.  Don’t believe me ?  Try it with a wedge.  Take a 90 yard target.  Stare at it. But say 75 to yourself.  You can’t hit it 90 to save your life.  Now say 100 several times.  You’ll  get it there or long.  If you’re genuine in concentration.  It matters a lot.  

[Sean2]

They have those green reading books that show slopes, percentage of break, etc. It seems the DMD's are pretty harmless in comparison. I can see them coming in very handy if a player is in another fairway, or way left or right of the green. Besides, I would think the players use them when they aren't playing in a tournament so they have a great idea how well they work. 

[dropkicked]

DMD, will add another data set. Perfect for those who want accuracy. The intangibles will still require calculations to be made on the fly.

I can't see how this could possibly cause slower play.... unless of course it causes further paralysis by analysis..

 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

On 2/11/2021 at 5:45 AM, bladehunter said:

Interesting quote from Patrick cantlay this morning.  “ what will be interesting is when the next step , allowing us to use carts hits , the caddies will be in trouble then “. ( paraphrasing but that’s very close to exact ) 

 

I found that funny since that was a thought I had initially “ what’s next.  Carts and handicaps “ ?   
 

of a the pro and former pro quotes they have this morning.  Collin Morikawa was The only one for it.  To a person they all said “ we will still walk it off to check.  Not going to just shoot the top of the bunker and go “.   

 

I would love to hear the through line for allowing lasers leading to using carts. I don't consider golf a sport but that would constitute abandoning all pretense that it was. Slippery slope arguments are lazy. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by TLUBulldogGolf

[Soloman1]

It also discounts even more the scores and records from players who didn't have the benefit of DMD's and laser-measured, green-reading books.

[bladehunter]

26 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

I would love to hear the through line for allowing lasers leading to using carts. I don't consider golf a sport but that would constitute abandoning all pretense that it was. Slippery slope arguments are lazy. 

of course it’s hyperbole.  Meant to elicit thought and reaction.  refusing to engage in the actual question of “why”? is just as lazy to use your word.     
 

why do we need to introduce something my into a situation which has no problem operating as is ?  

[TLUBulldogGolf]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

of course it’s hyperbole.  Meant to elicit thought and reaction.  refusing to engage in the actual question of “why”? is just as lazy to use your word.     
 

why do we need to introduce something my into a situation which has no problem operating as is ?  

 

The reaction it elicits is 'wow that is some dumb logic'.

 

I don't think we need to and I'm not making that argument, I just don't see any reason to get worked up one way or another. If it helps speed things when you get away from normally marked areas great, any downsides are overblown imo.

Edited February 12, 2021 by TLUBulldogGolf

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

The reaction it elicits is 'wow that is some dumb logic'.

 

I don't think we need to and I'm not making that argument, I just don't see any reason to get worked up one way or another. If it helps speed things when you get away from normally marked areas great, any downsides are overblown imo.

Sure. 
 

if we must. I see their want of use of finder as a ploy to distract the weekend player away from the rollback talk.  “ let’s give them something to shut them up “ kind of thing.  
 

or it’s simply another “ grow the game “ concession to dumb it down.  That’s the through line to carts.  Carts are the best logical parallel picture to paint between pro and bogey golfers.  

[TLUBulldogGolf]

17 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Sure. 
 

if we must. I see their want of use of finder as a ploy to distract the weekend player away from the rollback talk.  “ let’s give them something to shut them up “ kind of thing.  
 

or it’s simply another “ grow the game “ concession to dumb it down.  That’s the through line to carts.  Carts are the best logical parallel picture to paint between pro and bogey golfers.  

 

Are there really that many weekend golfers that are even engaged with the roll back talk? Seems dubious. None of my newbie friends would have any clue, and they are probably even less aware than one tournament is allowing lasers.

 

How does a rangefinder dumb down the game? Is it telling the player where he needs to land it to get close to hole, or how to account for the myriad of other things in the conditions in order to hit the ball the correct distance? They are still going to heavily rely mainly on the information they have in the yardage book, especially given that I would find it hard to trust a number off a rangefinder beyond to a flagstick or tree. I would even be fine with banning the slope ones again. Why act like a laser plays the game for you? And I'm just not seeing this friction between pros mainly walking/having a caddie and ams riding a cart.

Edited February 12, 2021 by TLUBulldogGolf

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

Are there really that many weekend golfers that are even engaged with the roll back talk? Seems dubious. None of my newbie friends would have any clue, and they are probably even less aware than one tournament is allowing lasers.

 

How does a rangefinder dumb down the game? Is it telling the player where he needs to land it to get close to hole, or how to account for the myriad of other things in the conditions in order to hit the ball the correct distance? They are still going to heavily rely mainly in the information they have in the yardage book, especially given that I would find it hard to trust a number off a rangefinder beyond to a flagstick or tree. I would even be fine with banning the slope ones again. Why act like a laser plays the game for you? And I'm just not seeing this friction between pros mainly walking/having a caddie and ams riding a cart.

It’s not about today.  It’s about the slippery slope that technology brings.    For every inch you give , a mile will inevitably be taken.  
 

I just don’t want to watch or play golf that resembles the tiger and Phil -Brady pay per view special .  Carts with speakers , range finders with slope, etc.   

 

in my opinion.  A range finder is used by an am in place of a caddie.  If we all had caddies I’d want them banned for ams too.  

[cval]

29 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

It’s not about today.  It’s about the slippery slope that technology brings.    For every inch you give , a mile will inevitably be taken.  
 

I just don’t want to watch or play golf that resembles the tiger and Phil -Brady pay per view special .  Carts with speakers , range finders with slope, etc.   

 

in my opinion.  A range finder is used by an am in place of a caddie.  If we all had caddies I’d want them banned for ams too.  

Maybe we ban caddies and have pros rely on their own skills. Jack did not have a long time caddie, Kuch did not seem to need a caddy to win. Now that we have lasers maybe there is no need for caddies?

[bladehunter]

16 minutes ago, cval said:

Maybe we ban caddies and have pros rely on their own skills. Jack did not have a long time caddie, Kuch did not seem to need a caddy to win. Now that we have lasers maybe there is no need for caddies?

Lol.  So put guys out of work in favor of technology ?   Who’s going to carry the bag ?   Oh yea.  Carts.    
 

see @TLUBulldogGolf   The skilled caddie is The one under attack here.   The dots were just connected.  

[mahonie]

On 2/11/2021 at 4:42 PM, Sean2 said:

They have those green reading books that show slopes, percentage of break, etc. It seems the DMD's are pretty harmless in comparison. I can see them coming in very handy if a player is in another fairway, or way left or right of the green. Besides, I would think the players use them when they aren't playing in a tournament so they have a great idea how well they work. 

I see judging distance as being one of the key skills in playing golf. I would go so far as to say it’s one of my biggest advantages over the guys I play with. Nowadays 95% of the guys I play with have DMDs, usually GPS, and some of my advantage is lost. That is until we play on winter temporary greens (we don’t have yardage books for the course) or they have forgot to charge their device and, I am not joking, they haven’t got a clue what club to hit. 

[cval]

24 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Lol.  So put guys out of work in favor of technology ?   Who’s going to carry the bag ?   Oh yea.  Carts.    
 

see @TLUBulldogGolf   The skilled caddie is The one under attack here.   The dots were just connected.  

Get one of those follow me carts. 🙂  The caddie should not make the difference if a golfer is successful or not. They have become way to important in today's game IMHO.  

Edited February 12, 2021 by cval

[Sean2]

14 minutes ago, mahonie said:

I see judging distance as being one of the key skills in playing golf. I would go so far as to say it’s one of my biggest advantages over the guys I play with. Nowadays 95% of the guys I play with have DMDs, usually GPS, and some of my advantage is lost. That is until we play on winter temporary greens (we don’t have yardage books for the course) or they have forgot to charge their device and, I am not joking, they haven’t got a clue what club to hit. 

I agree, it is a bit of a lost art, but the guys on Tour have it down pat. Speaking of lost art, I would like to see them do away with those green reading books.