Local Rules Confusion

[denkea]

The modern local rules from the USGA (https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8) Cover quite a bit.

 

But what about a local rule allowing balls coming to rest near a root of a tree to be dropped with free relief?

That would seem to be a reasonable rule but what about one that is unreasonable?  Say taking a free relief   from a ball that plugs in a bunker and placing it when the bunker is wet from rain?

 

How about a local rule that says you cannot get relief from paved cart paths?  

 

There has to be a gray area I think but not sure what a committee can and can't do re local rules.

 

Any input?  Just curious.

 

 

 

 

[davep043]

23 minutes ago, denkea said:

The modern local rules from the USGA (https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8) Cover quite a bit.

 

But what about a local rule allowing balls coming to rest near a root of a tree to be dropped with free relief?

That would seem to be a reasonable rule but what about one that is unreasonable?  Say taking a free relief   from a ball that plugs in a bunker and placing it when the bunker is wet from rain?

 

How about a local rule that says you cannot get relief from paved cart paths?  

 

There has to be a gray area I think but not sure what a committee can and can't do re local rules.

 

Any input?  Just curious.

In the introduction to the Local Rules part of Committee Procedures, you find this:

Quote

In order to ensure that play is conducted in accordance with the Rules of Golf, a Committee must not use a Local Rule to waive or modify the Rules of Golf simply because it might prefer a Rule to be different.

That seems to limit the Committee's authority in the situations you describe.  However, the Committee marks the course, and defines the status of many things, which determines what your options might be under the Rules.  Some of the ways this might be done are discussed in  Model Local Rule F-1.

 

So a Committee could define tree roots as GUR, for instance, and work within the Rules.  Or they could use MLR F-9 to address roots.  They could define the bunkers (or specific bunkers) as GUR, and/or as part of the General Area (Model Local Rule C-4), but they can't use a Local Rule to extend embedded ball relief for a ball that's not in the General Area.  They can define paved cart paths as Integral Objects (as they do with  the paved roads on the Old Course).  

 

In summary, most of your answers are in the part of the Rules that you linked, you just needed to read them a little closer.

[bcski]

Yes, any club can enact it's own local rules.  They are private entities with no legal restrictions as far as the R&A or the USGA goes.

 

If you want STRICT rules from the two main governing bodies, your best bet is to play on one of the professional tours.

 

Remember the local rules are enacted for that courses regular players, not Tour events.  

[sui generis]

59 minutes ago, bcski said:

Yes, any club can enact it's own local rules.  They are private entities with no legal restrictions as far as the R&A or the USGA goes.

 

If you want STRICT rules from the two main governing bodies, your best bet is to play on one of the professional tours.

 

Remember the local rules are enacted for that courses regular players, not Tour events.  

 

Nice troll post. ☹️

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, bcski said:

Yes, any club can enact it's own local rules.  They are private entities with no legal restrictions as far as the R&A or the USGA goes.

 

By all means do whatever you like.

 

But if you want your handicap to be legitimate per the WHS and both those organizations your local club needs to FOLLOW those local rules.

 

But you already know that. 😎

[Hawkeye77]

3 hours ago, bcski said:

Yes, any club can enact it's own local rules.  They are private entities with no legal restrictions as far as the R&A or the USGA goes.

 

If you want STRICT rules from the two main governing bodies, your best bet is to play on one of the professional tours.

 

Remember the local rules are enacted for that courses regular players, not Tour events.  

Haha, see this was posted in another thread, someone has addressed it here so I'll let it be!

[Mr. Bean]

8 hours ago, denkea said:

The modern local rules from the USGA (https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8) Cover quite a bit.

 

But what about a local rule allowing balls coming to rest near a root of a tree to be dropped with free relief?

That would seem to be a reasonable rule but what about one that is unreasonable?  Say taking a free relief   from a ball that plugs in a bunker and placing it when the bunker is wet from rain?

 

How about a local rule that says you cannot get relief from paved cart paths?  

 

There has to be a gray area I think but not sure what a committee can and can't do re local rules.

 

Any input?  Just curious.

 

 

I don't understand the question.

 

All the allowed Local Rules are described in the Book. Period. Any other kind of Local Rule is not allowed and use of those means the rounds played are not postable for handicap purposes.

[Sawgrass]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I

 

All the allowed Local Rules are described in the Book. Period. Any other kind of Local Rule is not allowed and use of those means the rounds played are not postable for handicap purposes.

It is possible that additional local rules are authorized but not published, as implied in Committee Procedures section 8:

 

If the Committee believes that a Local Rule not covered by these principles may be needed because of local abnormal conditions that interfere with fair play, it should:

• Consult www.USGA.org to check if any additional Model Local Rule is available to cover such a condition, or

• Consult the USGA directly.

[Mr. Bean]

28 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

It is possible that additional local rules are authorized but not published, as implied in Committee Procedures section 8:

 

If the Committee believes that a Local Rule not covered by these principles may be needed because of local abnormal conditions that interfere with fair play, it should:

• Consult www.USGA.org to check if any additional Model Local Rule is available to cover such a condition, or

• Consult the USGA directly.

 

Yes, I am aware of that. Are you aware of any of such LRs to have been accepted and used?

 

Which brings to my mind one of the former LRs no longer allowed and that is stones in bunkers declared as Movable Obstructions. That LR has not been accepted despite of numerous request from quite a few Tours around the world since 1.1.2019. Or maybe it has and I have not heard of it. Any info anyone?

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Sawgrass]

30 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Yes, I am aware of that. Are you aware of any of such LRs to have been accepted and used?

 

I don’t recall ever personally asking for a LR authorization, but I do recall someone reporting one on this site a few years ago regarding massive GUR in what was then a hazard. I don’t recall the details. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Sawgrass

[Augster]

A course I play occasionally plays LCP in the bunkers full time as a local rule. There is no requirement to LCP, it’s an option. It’s also an option to not play in the tourneys there. But you know if you do, the field is playing LCP in the bunkers whether it’s a “legal” local rule or not. 

[bcski]

7 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Nice troll post. ☹️

Take it easy, big guy.  I was merely pointing out to folks who don't know, that courses are free to make any local rules they wish.  There is no legal binding contract they must adhere to with the usga or r&a.  Again MANY players play to have a good time and post scores that, perhaps, some would say shouldn't be posted.

 

Many people do not realize this when they encounter a local rule that is "not covered" in the usga book.

 

I apologize to the forum if I have offended some of you...

Edited June 11, 2021 by bcski
add

[Sawgrass]

24 minutes ago, bcski said:

Take it easy, big guy.  I was merely pointing out to folks who don't know, that courses are free to make any local rules they wish.  There is no legal binding contract they must adhere to with the usga or r&a.  Again MANY players play to have a good time and post scores that, perhaps, some would say shouldn't be posted.

 

Many people do not realize this when they encounter a local rule that is "not covered" in the usga book.

 

I apologize to the forum if I have offended some of you...

Your point that people can disregard the actual rules of golf if they choose isn’t particularly impressive. 

[Hawkeye77]

41 minutes ago, bcski said:

Take it easy, big guy.  I was merely pointing out to folks who don't know, that courses are free to make any local rules they wish.  There is no legal binding contract they must adhere to with the usga or r&a. 

Many state golf associations to which many courses belong would find your statements very inaccurate.  And they are inaccurate.

[nsxguy]

57 minutes ago, bcski said:

Take it easy, big guy.  I was merely pointing out to folks who don't know, that courses are free to make any local rules they wish.  There is no legal binding contract they must adhere to with the usga or r&a.  Again MANY players play to have a good time and post scores that, perhaps, some would say shouldn't be posted.

 

Many people do not realize this when they encounter a local rule that is "not covered" in the usga book.

 

I apologize to the forum if I have offended some of you...

 

Do you know of any courses that have local rules that aren't included in the model local rules ?

 

In any case, those folks who "don't know" are probably not reading a forum dedicated to the Rules of Golf. Unless of course they want to learn - and in that case, good for them. That's the main reason I'm here.

 

But if they do care enough to keep a handicap they might also want it to be a legitimate one.

[bcski]

41 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Many state golf associations to which many courses belong would find your statements very inaccurate.  And they are inaccurate.

Sigh,  Show me the State or U.S. Federal LAWS please to back your statement that say privately owned golf course MUST LEGALY follow the usga.

 

That is my point - there are no LAWS that say a course must have local rules which are compliant with the usga.

 

You are all blowing this way out of proportion...

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, bcski said:

Sigh,  Show me the State or U.S. Federal LAWS please to back your statement that say privately owned golf course MUST LEGALY follow the usga.

 

That is my point - there are no LAWS that say a course must have local rules which are compliant with the usga.

 

You are all blowing this way out of proportion...

You said "legal, binding contract" not statutes (which would be a "duh" of a point and not really all that relevant to the discussion), and you are simply wrong.  Courses all over creation are required to follow USGA rules/handicapping as part of their state association memberships.  Private/public - doesn't matter - another red herring in your retreat or misguided retrench.

 

Move the goalposts all you want, you keep making statements I assume to get the reactions you are getting so enjoy them, but the statements continue to be inaccurate, and more so the more you go on about it.

[bcski]

Wow, just wow...Tell you what I will call 908-326-1850 Monday - as all of you surely know - this is the main number to the usga.

 

I will pose the following question:  Do you have legally binding contracts with courses in the U.S that they must follow the usga's rules of golf?  

 

I will report back the name of the individuals I speak to.

 

Will that suffice as evidence that there is no legal way for the usga to hold courses accountable??

[jimbo123]

1 minute ago, bcski said:

Wow, just wow...Tell you what I will call 908-326-1850 Monday - as all of you surely know - this is the main number to the usga.

 

I will pose the following question:  Do you have legally binding contracts with courses in the U.S that they must follow the usga's rules of golf?  

 

I will report back the name of the individuals I speak to.

 

Will that suffice as evidence that there is no legal way for the usga to hold courses accountable??

Your point is so much less interesting than you think. 
 

If you tee off outside the teeing area, no one will arrest you or sue you for breach of contract.  Wow. 

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Yes, I am aware of that. Are you aware of any of such LRs to have been accepted and used?

 

Which brings to my mind one of the former LRs no longer allowed and that is stones in bunkers declared as Movable Obstructions. That LR has not been accepted despite of numerous request from quite a few Tours around the world since 1.1.2019. Or maybe it has and I have not heard of it. Any info anyone?

 

What  am I missing other than it is now a rule not an allowable local rule?

 

Before playing a ball in a bunker, a player may remove loose impediments under Rule 15.1 and movable obstructions under Rule 15.2. This includes any reasonable touching or movement of the sand in the bunker that happens while doing so.

https://www.randa.org › Rule-12

Bunkers - The R&A

 

 

[jimbo123]

8 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

What  am I missing other than it is now a rule not an allowable local rule?

 

Before playing a ball in a bunker, a player may remove loose impediments under Rule 15.1 and movable obstructions under Rule 15.2. This includes any reasonable touching or movement of the sand in the bunker that happens while doing so.

https://www.randa.org › Rule-12

Bunkers - The R&A

 

 

Is it because of the distinction between loose impediments and movable obstructions maybe?  Ie something about not wanting to see penalties if the ball moves accidentally while removing a stone very close to it?  
 

Just a guess and it seems like a stretch to call stones movable obstructions anyway. 

[Sawgrass]

25 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

 

Just a guess and it seems like a stretch to call stones movable obstructions anyway. 

It WAS an acknowledged stretch.  Made obsolete by now being allowed to remove all loose impediments in bunkers (and penalty areas).  The slight downside to recompressing the stretch is that you now must make sure you don’t move your ball when removing the stone.  
 

I can happily live with that.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Sawgrass

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, bcski said:

Wow, just wow...Tell you what I will call 908-326-1850 Monday - as all of you surely know - this is the main number to the usga.

 

I will pose the following question:  Do you have legally binding contracts with courses in the U.S that they must follow the usga's rules of golf?  

 

I will report back the name of the individuals I speak to.

 

Will that suffice as evidence that there is no legal way for the usga to hold courses accountable??

Missing the point again and shifting the narrative, I assume on purpose - nobody said the USGA has contracts with courses as you describe.

[antip]

4 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

I don’t recall ever personally asking for a LR authorization, but I do recall someone reporting one on this site a few years ago regarding massive GUR in what was then a hazard. I don’t recall the details. 

Can't recall if it was me, but I know of one like this on my last course. Their index 1 par four, 430 yards uphill, water carry about 110 yards from the regular tees, longer from the back tees. The water ran full width of the fairway and beyond, getting close to the OOB fence. Committee had put a line of stakes parallel with line of play right across the (then) hazard and a local rule determined that anything in the water to the right of that line of stakes was GUR. The stake line was more or less aligned with the right side of the fairway but the water went well beyond that. The argument put up to defend this LR was this was precisely the Committee's intended challenge for the hole, the area to the right of that line was intended to be causeway and a playable, longer line of play for the very short hitters. (A little Committee intent vs nature imbroglio.) The State GA came and inspected and approved that non-regular local rule as an unorthodox but practical solution to the problem. If I'd been a bit more entrepreneurial, perhaps I could have run tours to this spot as a rules nerd sacred site.

More recently, taking advantage of the once in a decade drought that emptied the lake, the club dug the lake much deeper and filled in the ground to the right of that old hazard limit line, allowing the wacky local rule to be retired. 

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

It WAS an acknowledged stretch.  Made obsolete by now being allowed to remove all loose impediments in bunkers (and penalty areas).  The slight downside to recompressing the stretch is that you now must make sure you don’t move your ball when removing the stone.  
 

I can happily live with that.

 

Thing is, that there are so many different kinds of courses around the world and many types of sand or similar in the bunkers. For example I was told by a pro coaching a player on the Asian Tour that in quite a few places the bunkers are filled with small pebbles. In the past there was this old LR in force and pebbles were allowed to be moved and the ball replaced if moved with no penalty but after 1.1.2019 the players have been forced to play their ball if it is on a pebble or leaning against one. As the basis of that LR was to protect players from rapidly flying small stones the current situation is far from optimal.

 

I have no clue why the R&A has not yielded to grant permission to that old LR as it is certainly needed in some places (I know one course around here as well, bunkers are filled with something closer to gravel instead of fine sand...).

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, jimbo123 said:

Is it because of the distinction between loose impediments and movable obstructions maybe?  Ie something about not wanting to see penalties if the ball moves accidentally while removing a stone very close to it?  
 

Just a guess and it seems like a stretch to call stones movable obstructions anyway. 

 

This is from the 2015 Hard Card of European Tour:

 

11. Stones in Bunkers - Page 130

Stones in bunkers are movable obstructions.

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, antip said:

Can't recall if it was me, but I know of one like this on my last course. Their index 1 par four, 430 yards uphill, water carry about 110 yards from the regular tees, longer from the back tees. The water ran full width of the fairway and beyond, getting close to the OOB fence. Committee had put a line of stakes parallel with line of play right across the (then) hazard and a local rule determined that anything in the water to the right of that line of stakes was GUR. The stake line was more or less aligned with the right side of the fairway but the water went well beyond that. The argument put up to defend this LR was this was precisely the Committee's intended challenge for the hole, the area to the right of that line was intended to be causeway and a playable, longer line of play for the very short hitters. (A little Committee intent vs nature imbroglio.) The State GA came and inspected and approved that non-regular local rule as an unorthodox but practical solution to the problem. If I'd been a bit more entrepreneurial, perhaps I could have run tours to this spot as a rules nerd sacred site.

More recently, taking advantage of the once in a decade drought that emptied the lake, the club dug the lake much deeper and filled in the ground to the right of that old hazard limit line, allowing the wacky local rule to be retired. 

 

But is (was) it not allowed to declare part of a PA (WH) as GUR?

[antip]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

But is (was) it not allowed to declare part of a PA (WH) as GUR?

If you do that it would be a no relief situation. What we had was the line of stakes across the water split the water into water hazard (left of stake line only) and GUR (right of stake line only).

[jimbo123]

16 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

This is from the 2015 Hard Card of European Tour:

 

11. Stones in Bunkers - Page 130

Stones in bunkers are movable obstructions.

Sorry what’s your point? 

[Mr. Bean]

19 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

Sorry what’s your point? 

 

Just to point out that the LR in question was in use in high level tournaments, nothing more.