Adjust single bend lie angle without affecting toe hang

[sadclevelandsports]

Hey all,

 

I wanted to know how hard it would be to adjust the lie angle (I want more upright) without changing the toe hang of a single bend. Is this possible and/or worth the effort? The workshop guy at a local big box says it's no problem, but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around how it's done. Thanks!

 

[Scotty1140]

I've done this. No noticeable change or effect on toe hang or the putter's performance at all for me.

[sadclevelandsports]

44 minutes ago, Scotty1140 said:

I've done this. No noticeable change or effect on toe hang or the putter's performance at all for me.

 

How is it done though? For instance, if you change the lie by bending the top of the bend, it will aim the center of the shaft away from the center of mass correct? If you bend the shaft near the hosel, you'd get the same effect, which would theoretically increase toe hang. Do you bend both to "re-aim" the shaft at the correct spot?

[Socrates]

It is not possible to change the lie angle without affecting the toe hang.  It will point the long axis of the shaft somewhere else and that will change the toe hang. 

 

That being said, it is better to change the lie angle and change the toe hang a little than to try to putt with a putter that is setting up incorrectly for you. 

[sadclevelandsports]

42 minutes ago, Socrates said:

It is not possible to change the lie angle without affecting the toe hang.  It will point the long axis of the shaft somewhere else and that will change the toe hang. 

 

That being said, it is better to change the lie angle and change the toe hang a little than to try to putt with a putter that is setting up incorrectly for you. 

 

If we're talking ballpark figures, the putter I have in mind is the ER2 which is 22 degrees toe hang. I am wanting a lie angle of around 72 (stock is 70). How badly would the toe hang get messed up from 2 degrees of upright lie?

[MattM97]

15 minutes ago, sadclevelandsports said:

 

If we're talking ballpark figures, the putter I have in mind is the ER2 which is 22 degrees toe hang. I am wanting a lie angle of around 72 (stock is 70). How badly would the toe hang get messed up from 2 degrees of upright lie?

 

Probably a few extra degrees more, really depends where the shaft is located on the head. I'd say probably no more than 30° after it's bent and even if a bit more that's still not much unless you're super sensitive to toe hang which I doubt. Like @Socrates said proper lie angle is bigger than toe hang when toe hang impact is that minimal. 

[Socrates]

2 minutes ago, MattM97 said:

 

Probably a few extra degrees more, really depends where the shaft is located on the head. I'd say probably no more than 30° after it's bent and even if a bit more that's still not much unless you're super sensitive to toe hang which I doubt. Like @Socrates said proper lie angle is bigger than toe hang when toe hang impact is that minimal. 

The location of the bend (distance from CG) will change the amount, so I don't know if you can say with any certainty that this change in lie angle will result in this change in toe hang.  It's not going to be much.

 

 

[MattM97]

3 minutes ago, Socrates said:

The location of the bend (distance from CG) will change the amount, so I don't know if you can say with any certainty that this change in lie angle will result in this change in toe hang.  It's not going to be much.

 

 

 

For sure it could be nothing or could be a bit but even then going from 22° to say 30° will not really be noticeable. 

[jgreer1421]

11 hours ago, MattM97 said:

 

For sure it could be nothing or could be a bit but even then going from 22° to say 30° will not really be noticeable. 

Just did the opposite, but with a 2021 ping kushin…Out of curiosity…if I understand correctly, If went the other way and bent flatter, it would make it more face balanced? 

[MattM97]

16 minutes ago, jgreer1421 said:

Just did the opposite, but with a 2021 ping kushin…Out of curiosity…if I understand correctly, If went the other way and bent flatter, it would make it more face balanced? 

 

All depends where the shaft intersects through the head. 

[pmang]

I bend putter often since I own a bending machine. I play face balanced mallets. I like a lie angle of 73*. When I bend (at the point where the shaft attaches to the mallet) from a stock lie angle of 70* (for example) I add “toe hang” to the putter. To correct this I must increase the “top bend” of the shaft to go back to being face balanced with no toe hang. This is for a double bend shaft for my example. I hope that helps.

[Socrates]

9 hours ago, pmang said:

I bend putter often since I own a bending machine. I play face balanced mallets. I like a lie angle of 73*. When I bend (at the point where the shaft attaches to the mallet) from a stock lie angle of 70* (for example) I add “toe hang” to the putter. To correct this I must increase the “top bend” of the shaft to go back to being face balanced with no toe hang. This is for a double bend shaft for my example. I hope that helps.

The problem with that is that you no longer have changed the lie angle.  The net result is no change when you change the bend angle lower down and then make a correction higher up to bring back the face balancing.

[pmang]

4 minutes ago, Socrates said:

The problem with that is that you no longer have changed the lie angle.  The net result is no change when you change the bend angle lower down and then make a correction higher up to bring back the face balancing.

I have changed the lie angle. I take the lie angle to 73*. The objective by doing this is to keep the shaft line to intersect closely to the center of the face of the putter to keep it face balanced. The lie and loft are independent of one another. The gauges don’t lie on my bending machine.

[Socrates]

19 minutes ago, pmang said:

I have changed the lie angle. I take the lie angle to 73*. The objective by doing this is to keep the shaft line to intersect closely to the center of the face of the putter to keep it face balanced. The lie and loft are independent of one another. The gauges don’t lie on my bending machine.

That's not what you originally stated.  It's what you might have meant, but....

 

What happens if the person doesn't want their loft angle to be changed?

[pmang]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:02 AM, Socrates said:

That's not what you originally stated.  It's what you might have meant, but....

 

What happens if the person doesn't want their loft angle to be changed?

Then you don’t change it. Again, loft and lie are independent and one can be changed and not the other.

Edited March 21, 2022 by pmang

[Rapidcat]

After reading the posts from @pmangand @SocratesI have a couple of associated questions re bending a double bend shaft to make the lie angle more upright - if I didn't care about maintaining the original mallet face balance and am ok with adding a little toe hang, could I make just one bend by bending the shaft from the "top bend" rather than at the point where the shaft attaches to the mallet? Seems straightforward enough but anything else to be aware of?

 

Thanks for any contributions, appreciated.

 

 

 

[Socrates]

Making the bend change using the top bend is fine.  In a double bend shaft (or even a single bend), I would not want to bend the shaft where it inserts the head.  Bend one or both of the bends to achieve what you want.  Of course, using an appropriate tool.

[golfluvzme]

Always fun to read threads like this and see it from a different angle.  Socrates has been pretty much spot-on with his suggestions and observations, IMHO.

 

LaMont in AZ

[brick101]

I ordered a Double Bend Face Balanced putter from Callaway "Up 2°" and was surprised when it arrived with with a small amount of Toe Hang. Seems Callaway does not rebend both bends.

Edited March 20, 2022 by brick101

[Socrates]

8 hours ago, brick101 said:

I ordered a Double Bend Face Balanced putter from Callaway "Up 2°" and was surprised when it arrived with with a small amount of Toe Hang. Seems Callaway does not rebend both bends.

Once you bend away from the lie angle it was designed to be at (to be face balanced) there is no way to bend it to be face balanced again.  You would have to pull the shaft and fiddle with the insertion angle to get back to face balanced and then you likely would be back at the same point with the lie angle being wrong.  

 

So to make a long story short, you can't have your cake and eat it too.