Which is better winning tournaments or rankings

[tiger1873]

Which is better win or place well at a bunch of tournaments beating high ranked players or is it better to focus on scoring low so rankings are better.

 

One would assume winning different tournaments with decent players ranked well would eventually show up in the rankings but It seems that doesn’t always happen.

Edited November 7, 2021 by tiger1873

[Jkhogbear]

Learning to win is important.  I’ve seen my kid grind out wins now because they remember what it feels from winning before.   Tiger always would go back to his memory bank of winning to help him.  It’s so valuable.   Now. You don’t want to do tournaments that are too easy to win obviously.  We like to have a good mix of winnable tournaments and difficult type tournaments.  

[leezer99]

Winning by shooting 83 in a weak field is a BS win.  The score is the best indicator of success so I'd rather see my son shoot 69 and lose.  Keep shooting those low scores and they will eventually become wins.

[tiger1873]

I pretty much agree with with what everyone has said.  The reason I was asking the question though is I was talking about kids who are still playing local and regional events.

 

If you are playing big national events I don't think you would care.

 

Here is a what I am seeing you can play variety of courses. Some very hard like a windy pete dye course where the field is good but scores will be very high or you can play a place without sand traps that has super low scores.

 

The bigger national events are not likely going to be played on super easy courses like that.  So you need to learn how to play on tougher courses.

 

Some kids only play easy courses that everyone breaks 80 and you need to 5 under to win. The fields can be good too on these courses.  Since there playing easy courses they will outrank a lot players even though they are not good.

 

The problem is if you play a variety of courses you don't qualify for events because they care about rankings.  My guess rankings will eventually drop but that can take a few months to catch up.

 

 

 

 

[heavy_hitter]

Coaches would rather see a kid shoot a 72-72 and not win in a good field than win with a 75-75 in a below average field.  

 

Just my opinion, guys should be playing in 48 or more player fields and girls 18 or more.  Coaches will look at this and the value of strength of tournament on JGS is a big deal.

 

Easy course, hard course, and set up don't matter.

Edited November 8, 2021 by heavy_hitter

[Abh159]

The two (low scores and winning) should go hand in hand unless you're only playing in small local tournaments with below average competition. Yes low scores are great, but also being able to win in tough conditions or on a tough course is equally as important. 

 

That being said, I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't really "move up" until you can win at your current level. Meaning someone who can't win local tournaments shouldn't be moving up to regional events, and someone who can't win regional events shouldn't be playing in national tournaments. 

[BloctonGolf11]

Yes you have to learn to win and winning is nice but if you are at the point where you are worried about rankings you should only be playing in events that actually have decent fields and matter. Case in point this is now the path we are transitioning to with my son.

 

You have to make decisions based on where your kids are at in their journey. Under 12 who cares about rankings, they mean nothing and only give arrogant parents something to brag about on ridiculous social media accounts with their kids name and golf after it. 12-13 start building a ranking and getting used to transitioning to JGS events and focus on that but still play some things you can win and work on that mindset at a tournament. 14 and up, if you are serious it is time to stop playing events where you can count the competitors on your hands and play big boy or big girl golf. 

 

Case in point for my junior our path looks like this. Hurricanes are sparsely attended events around here. We can play one 30 minutes from our house on a course he knows intimately well. There will probably be 6-8 kids in that field. He is going in there with one goal: win the thing to work on playing under pressure and to get back into tournament mode as it is in January and he would have had a long layoff. The rest of his year will be SJGTs against packed fields of quality players. He is going into those with a completely different mindset. He is 12, once he hits 14 if the field is less than 15 kids or not skilled why would I have him play in it? 

[tiger1873]

2 minutes ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

Yes you have to learn to win and winning is nice but if you are at the point where you are worried about rankings you should only be playing in events that actually have decent fields and matter. Case in point this is now the path we are transitioning to with my son.

 

You have to make decisions based on where your kids are at in their journey. Under 12 who cares about rankings, they mean nothing and only give arrogant parents something to brag about on ridiculous social media accounts with their kids name and golf after it. 12-13 start building a ranking and getting used to transitioning to JGS events and focus on that but still play some things you can win and work on that mindset at a tournament. 14 and up, if you are serious it is time to stop playing events where you can count the competitors on your hands and play big boy or big girl golf. 

 

Case in point for my junior our path looks like this. Hurricanes are sparsely attended events around here. We can play one 30 minutes from our house on a course he knows intimately well. There will probably be 6-8 kids in that field. He is going in there with one goal: win the thing to work on playing under pressure and to get back into tournament mode as it is in January and he would have had a long layoff. The rest of his year will be SJGTs against packed fields of quality players. He is going into those with a completely different mindset. He is 12, once he hits 14 if the field is less than 15 kids or not skilled why would I have him play in it? 

 

 

I agree as much as I don't really want to worry about rankings but once you move beyond local events you really have to worry about rankings if you want to play bigger events. 

 

I guess there is a delay in rankings because my daughter is beating kids 500 ranked like clockwork but I see hardly much movement in her class. She putting down low scores good enough  pace well in AJGA tournaments on the same courses they play but is barely gaining in her class.  In some cases these are very large field with 40 odd girls so fields are fine.

 

Meanwhile I am seeing a few others in her class play local tournaments with 5 or 6 girls and they end up scoring low 70's but are moving higher in the rankings in some cases a lot. These same kids then do a bigger event and get killed in high 80's because there not used to playing harder courses.

 

Just frustrating because she's had a lot success recently but at the same time getting punished for playing harder stuff.

 

 

 

[tiger1873]

1 hour ago, Abh159 said:

The two (low scores and winning) should go hand in hand unless you're only playing in small local tournaments with below average competition. Yes low scores are great, but also being able to win in tough conditions or on a tough course is equally as important. 

 

That being said, I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't really "move up" until you can win at your current level. Meaning someone who can't win local tournaments shouldn't be moving up to regional events, and someone who can't win regional events shouldn't be playing in national tournaments. 

 

 

With JGS I am actually seeing the opposite. If you play a hard course say TPC sawgrass the kids are going to get killed on there.   Playing TPC sawgrass will hurt 95% of the kids rankings who play it because the're going to score a lot more then average.

 

That is an extreme course as an example but this plays out every weekend. The size the field has little effect on JGS as long as there is 5 kids playing in an event.

 

So if you can find a easy course where you can score low and has a decent course rating you rankings will improve.  Winning and Strength of tournament seems to have very little real effect on rankings outside the top 50.

 

Playing AJGA events for some kids is not a good idea if they want good JGS rankings because they never do well in that type of tournament.

 

The fact you can play  poor fields but outrank players who stick their neck out is what bother me.  

Edited November 8, 2021 by tiger1873

[heavy_hitter]

6 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

With JGS I am actually seeing the opposite. If you play a hard course say TPC sawgrass the kids are going to get killed on there.   Playing TPC sawgrass will hurt 95% of the kids rankings who play it because the're going to score a lot more then average.

 

That is an extreme course as an example but this plays out every weekend. The size the field has little effect on JGS as long as there is 5 kids playing in an event.

 

So if you can find a easy course where you can score low and has a decent course rating you rankings will improve.  Winning and Strength of tournament seems to have very little real effect on rankings outside the top 50.

 

Playing AJGA events for some kids is not a good idea if they want good JGS rankings because they never do well in that type of tournament.

 

The fact you can play  poor fields but outrank players who stick their neck out is what bother me.  

 

 

I disagree with most of this premise.

 

AJGA events are not set up difficult.  They are set up to score to keep kids returning and playing.

 

The size of field has little to do with ranking and everything to do with what a college coach looks at.  They do not care if you win an event with less than 18 kids.  If you have female golfer A with a 1.0 scoring differential and a 70 in strength of tournament and the same exact class and scoring differential in a girl with a 90, 9 times out of 10 they are taking the person with the better strength of tournament.

 

The argument of a course being easy or hard is meaningless.  College coaches don't care.  If it is easy then score better.  If it is hard then score.   It is about the course rating.  Pick the courses that best fits the player.  If my junior tells me he doesn't like such and such course then he isn't playing.  Pick 10-14 events a year that you can show success in and play those events as long as the fields are decent.

 

It is inevitable that a lower ranked junior will beat someone that is higher ranked.  College coaches aren't looking at that either.  They look at scoring differential and strength of field when looking at JGS.  

 

 

[tiger1873]

I think looking at the top 5 of JGS for girls kind of shows what I am talking about.   The girl in #3 seems to be ranked much higher then what JGS indicates they should be.

 

How does a girl with a 92,96 Strength  of tournament outrank a bunch of Girls who plays the top tournaments in the county.  She's 3rd in the rankings and hasn't played any large tournaments.

 

Looking at the rankings I see this a lot. But it obvious something is wrong with JGS when this happens.

 

 

[Fairway14]

Coaches want to know a player can shoot low tournament scores on challenging golf courses. A junior can accomplish this by playing local/county/state events, whether the tournaments are junior-only or a field full of adult players.

There is no need to play National junior tournaments and, or, pursue junior ranking status.

[heavy_hitter]

10 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

I think looking at the top 5 of JGS for girls kind of shows what I am talking about.   The girl in #3 seems to be ranked much higher then what JGS indicates they should be.

 

How does a girl with a 92,96 Strength  of tournament outrank a bunch of Girls who plays the top tournaments in the county.  She's 3rd in the rankings and hasn't played any large tournaments.

 

Looking at the rankings I see this a lot. But it obvious something is wrong with JGS when this happens.

 

 

 

That is an outlier.  She is playing at 5500 yards.  I am not going to guarantee she isn't getting recruited, but find it highly unlikely at those distances.

[tiger1873]

2 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

That is an outlier.  She is playing at 5500 yards.  I am not going to guarantee she isn't getting recruited, but find it highly unlikely at those distances.

 

 

There are lots of examples like this.  This one though is pretty glaring issue.   The real issue is why is  she able to get ranked so high on the ranking.

 

Based on how the rankings are calculated strenth of tournament should matter but it almost seems like it has no effect in some cases.

[Jkhogbear]

4 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

With JGS I am actually seeing the opposite. If you play a hard course say TPC sawgrass the kids are going to get killed on there.   Playing TPC sawgrass will hurt 95% of the kids rankings who play it because the're going to score a lot more then average.

 

That is an extreme course as an example but this plays out every weekend. The size the field has little effect on JGS as long as there is 5 kids playing in an event.

 

So if you can find a easy course where you can score low and has a decent course rating you rankings will improve.  Winning and Strength of tournament seems to have very little real effect on rankings outside the top 50.

 

Playing AJGA events for some kids is not a good idea if they want good JGS rankings because they never do well in that type of tournament.

 

The fact you can play  poor fields but outrank players who stick their neck out is what bother me.  

Have you tried AJGA qualifiers?  If your kid is progressing, then qualifiers are great.   We went that route, ignored all the earning stars and ranking stuff, and she got in some AJGAs and played well.  Then by doing that, she got in some big non-ajga tournaments.   

[mojomover]

Wonder if it is because she is international? and maybe they don't have the same fields like we do here...

 

 

4 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

There are lots of examples like this.  This one though is pretty glaring issue.   The real issue is why is  she able to get ranked so high on the ranking.

 

Based on how the rankings are calculated strenth of tournament should matter but it almost seems like it has no effect in some cases.

 

[tiger1873]

5 minutes ago, Jkhogbear said:

Have you tried AJGA qualifiers?  If your kid is progressing, then qualifiers are great.   We went that route, ignored all the earning stars and ranking stuff, and she got in some AJGAs and played well.  Then by doing that, she got in some big non-ajga tournaments.   

 

 

Yes this is the next logical step for us and most likely the route we will be taking. The big thing I hate about AJGA qualifiers is the last minute travel we will have to do.   I am probably over concerned about this too much.  We are having a good run of success that is almost hard to believe it's my kid. 

 

I suspect a lot parents that have kids rising in rankings all feel the same.

 

 

[Jkhogbear]

5 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

Yes this is the next logical step for us and most likely the route we will be taking. The big thing I hate about AJGA qualifiers is the last minute travel we will have to do.   I am probably over concerned about this too much.  We are having a good run of success that is almost hard to believe it's my kid. 

 

I suspect a lot parents that have kids rising in rankings all feel the same.

 

 

Good plan.  AJGA qualifiers are kinda crowded at the beginning of the year but settle down as the summer goes on.   We had great experiences with qualifiers.  Another bonus is if the qualifier is at the same course as the tournament.  If you get in the tournament you could potentially have played the course 3 times (practice round, qualifier, practice round) before the tournament starts.  That’s a huge advantage.

[tiger1873]

15 hours ago, mojomover said:

Wonder if it is because she is international? and maybe they don't have the same fields like we do here...

 

 

 

 

That shouldn't matter.  They tell us that strenth of tournament is 25% of the ranking.  That obviously is not the case for her. It the same when you look down the rankings. The only thing they care about is the score and course rating.

 

This makes no sense because the other girls are attending events that you have to qualify for and everyone is watching. Scoring 66 is a lot different in USGA event than your local pga tournament with 5 kids. 

 

There are literally girls ranked in the top 100 where parents made up events for them to play.

Edited November 9, 2021 by tiger1873

[heavy_hitter]

I will put it like this...  Would you rather A) shoot  75-75 and win or B) shoot 70-69 and come in 10th?  

 

I would pick B and it isn't even close.  Even if the number were 72-72 I would pick B.

[RmoorePE]

Is the context for this thread: which is better for getting a college scholarship? Or, which is better for impressing party guests?  Assuming the former, I would not be able to answer. I would imagine that high ranking would be more impressive to party guests, but it depends on the crowd.

 

I know there is probably statistical answer, but it starts with being really good at golf, irrespective of the course or people playing against the kid. I mean if the kid shoots in the 60s a lot, they are well on their way, wins or rankings aside.

 

The context and the kid mean the most for this equation. I have two daughters at home they both ask me about playing in college (volleyball and golf) I just tell them they need to be strong, be big, build injury proof bodies, be able to jump out of the gym, get straight A's and an even stronger desire to be a collegiate player when they are Jrs and Srs in high school. Other than that just love the game.

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by RmoorePE

[Pinewood Golfer]

On 11/8/2021 at 8:47 AM, heavy_hitter said:

Coaches would rather see a kid shoot a 72-72 and not win in a good field than win with a 75-75 in a below average field.  

 

Just my opinion, guys should be playing in 48 or more player fields and girls 18 or more.  Coaches will look at this and the value of strength of tournament on JGS is a big deal.

 

Easy course, hard course, and set up don't matter.

Strength of field is no longer a big deal on JGS. It used to be but is almost worthless now

[GwrxMod]

Cleaned and lock.