Order of Play

[Mr. Bean]

9 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Great policy.

 

You work overnights ? I mean it was what, 3:30 AM in Finland when you made that post, no ?

 

Yes.

[mitchnpat1]

casual I don't mind, but in any competitive round i think honors is important. 

[Mr. Bean]

17 minutes ago, mitchnpat1 said:

casual I don't mind, but in any competitive round i think honors is important. 

 

Care to substantiate your view, i.e. explain why?

[Strategery]

On 1/10/2022 at 11:46 AM, bobfoster said:

I do love the rules of golf. Never do foot wedges. Play it as it lies. Even hit out of heel marks in traps that some idiot didn't bother to rake (something that will never happen to a pro). Never take breakfast balls. Etc. The pleasure I get from a good round is enhanced knowing that it was a legitimately good score. Kicking a ball out from behind a tree instead of taking my medicine (and all manner of things like that) would lessen my satisfaction. My score wouldn't be a real score.

 

But there are a few rules that simply make no sense on crowded courses full of your average amateurs.

LOL, selective.

 

Why have rules? I would argue that the sole purpose is to establish a common framework for *competition*.

 

They are certainly not to maximize fun, which is the explicit goal of 99% of non-competitive golfers.

Do whatever you want in a safe courteous manner.

 

[Hawkeye77]

40 minutes ago, Strategery said:

LOL, selective.

 

Why have rules? I would argue that the sole purpose is to establish a common framework for *competition*.

 

They are certainly not to maximize fun, which is the explicit goal of 99% of non-competitive golfers.

Do whatever you want in a safe courteous manner.

 

 

Plenty of fun in learning and following the rules - most kids keen on the game want to learn them and play by them at even an early age.  I've found that to be true of friends who have come to the game later in life, but many get sidetracked into whatever habits those they play with have and that's fine.

 

Within the rules of the course and respect for others, definitely play however you want.

 

But to suggest 99% of "non-competitive" golfers want to have fun, which isn't maximized by the Rules of Golf - yep, the game they think they are playing - isn't very accurate at all.

[mitchnpat1]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Care to substantiate your view, i.e. explain why?

 

yeah 

[2bGood]

I just dropped in to comment this thread is a hot mess.

 

If you are casual golfer not playing by the rules - do what you like as long as it does interfere with your playing partners.

 

In competition it is a different beast where rules and etiquette need to be followed. 

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I just dropped in to comment this thread is a hot mess.

 

If you are casual golfer not playing by the rules - do what you like as long as it does interfere with your playing partners.

 

In competition it is a different beast where rules and etiquette need to be followed. 

 

It is my understanding that etiquette is to be followed on every single round, casual or competitive. Afa Rules are concerned there is no Rule saying that the order of play MUST be followed in a competition, quite on the contrary, speed golf is part of the Rules and may be invoked any time unless someone objects.

[2bGood]

18 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

It is my understanding that etiquette is to be followed on every single round, casual or competitive. Afa Rules are concerned there is no Rule saying that the order of play MUST be followed in a competition, quite on the contrary, speed golf is part of the Rules and may be invoked any time unless someone objects.

Yes I should of chosen my words more precisely. Proper etiquette varies depending on the situation in golf just as it does life. The required etiquette in casual rounds and competitive rounds can be very different and for good reason. 

 

So yes in casual rounds you still need to have 'etiquette' but the expectations can be very different than in competitive rounds.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by 2bGood

[MelloYello]

I tend to be on the slow side. I'm just naturally a very casual person. I think I make up time by being fast on the greens and generally shooting <80. But I always prefer to play ready golf on the tee. In fact, I say play ready golf tee-to-green. I generally hate it when a playing partner is obsessed with who tees off first. It's so dumb and outdated. 

 

In terms of rules, I think golf should be played LC&P in the closely-mown areas all the time. I just don't think golf course maintenance is good enough to achieve optimal conditions all across America at all clubs, all the time.

 

And I don't think that people paying more should benefit from having nicer conditions. It's just one of those "if I were King and I made the rules" things. I don't see how rolling it onto a nicer piece of grass or out of a divot spoils the game. On the contrary, I think it would make it more equal if you knew everyone was hitting from their preferred lie (in the closely-mown areas). 

Edited January 17, 2022 by MelloYello

[klebs01]

1 hour ago, MelloYello said:

I tend to be on the slow side. I'm just naturally a very casual person. I think I make up time by being fast on the greens and generally shooting <80. But I always prefer to play ready golf on the tee. In fact, I say play ready golf tee-to-green. I generally hate it when a playing partner is obsessed with who tees off first. It's so dumb and outdated. 

 

In terms of rules, I think golf should be played LC&P in the closely-mown areas all the time. I just don't think golf course maintenance is good enough to achieve optimal conditions all across America at all clubs, all the time.

 

And I don't think that people paying more should benefit from having nicer conditions. It's just one of those "if I were King and I made the rules" things. I don't see how rolling it onto a nicer piece of grass or out of a divot spoils the game. On the contrary, I think it would make it more equal if you knew everyone was hitting from their preferred lie (in the closely-mown areas). 

i completely disagree with you on LCP. If anything, I would prefer bringing down the conditions everywhere than try to have a high standard or LCP. Part of the charm of golf is the uncertainty and unpredictability in terms of lies and bounces. Some good shots are rewarded while others aren’t. It’s all in how you deal with each unique situation. If every lie was the same as if we were playing off mats, I would probably quit the game. 

[rogolf]

4 hours ago, MelloYello said:

I tend to be on the slow side. I'm just naturally a very casual person. I think I make up time by being fast on the greens and generally shooting <80. But I always prefer to play ready golf on the tee. In fact, I say play ready golf tee-to-green. I generally hate it when a playing partner is obsessed with who tees off first. It's so dumb and outdated. 

 

In terms of rules, I think golf should be played LC&P in the closely-mown areas all the time. I just don't think golf course maintenance is good enough to achieve optimal conditions all across America at all clubs, all the time.

 

And I don't think that people paying more should benefit from having nicer conditions. It's just one of those "if I were King and I made the rules" things. I don't see how rolling it onto a nicer piece of grass or out of a divot spoils the game. On the contrary, I think it would make it more equal if you knew everyone was hitting from their preferred lie (in the closely-mown areas). 

Completely disagree.  If you want a perfect lie every time, switch to indoor simulator golf (or billiards).

One of the principles of the game is to "play the course as you find it."

Edited January 17, 2022 by rogolf

[2bGood]

 

4 hours ago, MelloYello said:

I tend to be on the slow side. I'm just naturally a very casual person. I think I make up time by being fast on the greens and generally shooting <80. But I always prefer to play ready golf on the tee. In fact, I say play ready golf tee-to-green. I generally hate it when a playing partner is obsessed with who tees off first. It's so dumb and outdated. 

 

In terms of rules, I think golf should be played LC&P in the closely-mown areas all the time. I just don't think golf course maintenance is good enough to achieve optimal conditions all across America at all clubs, all the time.

 

And I don't think that people paying more should benefit from having nicer conditions. It's just one of those "if I were King and I made the rules" things. I don't see how rolling it onto a nicer piece of grass or out of a divot spoils the game. On the contrary, I think it would make it more equal if you knew everyone was hitting from their preferred lie (in the closely-mown areas). 

 

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

Completely disagree.  If you want a perfect lie every time, switch to indoor simulator golf (or billiards).

One of the principals of the game is to "play the course as you find it."

 

2 hours ago, klebs01 said:

i completely disagree with you on LCP. If anything, I would prefer bringing down the conditions everywhere than try to have a high standard or LCP. Part of the charm of golf is the uncertainty and unpredictability in terms of lies and bounces. Some good shots are rewarded while others aren’t. It’s all in how you deal with each unique situation. If every lie was the same as if we were playing off mats, I would probably quit the game. 

 

I am sure most of you are aware of Godwins Law - it simply states the longer a conversation goes on in an internet forum the more likely the Nazi's or Hitler will be brought up as a comparison. 

 

I am not sure what we should call this law, but I found in the Rules and Etiquette forum, the longer a thread goes on, regardless what the topic was that started it, the more likely that free relief from a divot will come up.😀

 

We started with - I don't like people walking ahead, and are hopefully ending with "I should get free relief from divots"

 

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, MelloYello said:

1) I tend to be on the slow side. I'm just naturally a very casual person. I think I make up time by being fast on the greens and generally shooting <80. But I always prefer to play ready golf on the tee. In fact, I say play ready golf tee-to-green. I generally hate it when a playing partner is obsessed with who tees off first. It's so dumb and outdated. 

 

2) In terms of rules, I think golf should be played LC&P in the closely-mown areas all the time. I just don't think golf course maintenance is good enough to achieve optimal conditions all across America at all clubs, all the time.

 

3) And I don't think that people paying more should benefit from having nicer conditions. It's just one of those "if I were King and I made the rules" things. I don't see how rolling it onto a nicer piece of grass or out of a divot spoils the game. On the contrary, I think it would make it more equal if you knew everyone was hitting from their preferred lie (in the closely-mown areas). 

 

1) I agree completely

2) I disagree completely. Occasional bad lies are part of golf.

3) See )2

[MelloYello]

I don't buy the idea of inconsistent turf being charming any more than I buy the idea that being poor or handicapped or otherwise abnormally restricted in some way is justified because it'll give someone "character."

 

It's so obviously wrong-headed to think that way no one would don't dare speak such a thing in public. 

 

But the idea of rolling a golf ball 3" to the left to offset some inconsistency in the fairway turf? No, that's a mortal sin that totally negates the value of the game! 

 

The above guy literally said he'd consider quitting the game if that were the case, LOL. And you wonder why golf is considered stuffy? 

[klebs01]

56 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 

 

 

 

I am sure most of you are aware of Godwins Law - it simply states the longer a conversation goes on in an internet forum the more likely the Nazi's or Hitler will be brought up as a comparison. 

 

I am not sure what we should call this law, but I found in the Rules and Etiquette forum, the longer a thread goes on, regardless what the topic was that started it, the more likely that free relief from a divot will come up.😀

 

We started with - I don't like people walking ahead, and are hopefully ending with "I should get free relief from divots"

 

 

 

 

Someone one has to fight the good fight. 🤣

[klebs01]

5 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

I don't buy the idea of inconsistent turf being charming any more than I buy the idea that being poor or handicapped or otherwise abnormally restricted in some way is justified because it'll give someone "character."

 

It's so obviously wrong-headed to think that way no one would don't dare speak such a thing in public. 

 

But the idea of rolling a golf ball 3" to the left to offset some inconsistency in the fairway turf? No, that's a mortal sin that totally negates the value of the game! 

 

The above guy literally said he'd consider quitting the game if that were the case, LOL. And you wonder why golf is considered stuffy? 

Imperfect turf the same as a person being handicapped. GTFO.  

[MelloYello]

1 minute ago, klebs01 said:

Imperfect turf the same as a person being handicapped. GTFO.  

 

Absolutely. When the ball is set nicely on turf you can most certainly elevate a shot much more than when it's sitting down. What about around the green? Why not allow someone to slide it an inch or two right/left to get a better piece of grass to chip? 

 

Are you denying that these subtleties can have effects? If nothing else, it takes a lot of pressure off having perfect turf conditions around the fairways/greens. 

[klebs01]

4 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Absolutely. When the ball is set nicely on turf you can most certainly elevate a shot much more than when it's sitting down. What about around the green? Why not allow someone to slide it an inch or two right/left to get a better piece of grass to chip? 

 

Are you denying that these subtleties can have effects? If nothing else, it takes a lot of pressure off having perfect turf conditions around the fairways/greens. 

Yes, varying lies impact shots. That the whole point of the rule to play the ball as it lies. That is what makes the game interesting and fun. Just like a pitcher throwing different pitches vs tee ball. 
 

You equating a playing the ball down as the same a a person being handicapped or poor is f*ching absurd. 

[MelloYello]

32 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

Yes, varying lies impact shots. That the whole point of the rule to play the ball as it lies. That is what makes the game interesting and fun. Just like a pitcher throwing different pitches vs tee ball. 
 

You equating a playing the ball down as the same a a person being handicapped or poor is f*ching absurd. 

 

I drew a comparison because the logic is the same in both cases--and don't tell me you don't see it because you're obviously reacting to how ugly it is in the one case. So you do see it. 

 

If the logic is ugly and unappealing in one case, how can it be celebrated in another, let alone be called "charming?"

 

Guy A makes more money and plays at a nicer course and thus gets to chip off perfectly manicured grass. Guy B makes less and thus plays at a lesser course and....what? We blame the greens-keeper at Guy B's course who's working on a budget of 10% for not having the course be perfect? And we tell guy B to suck it up because he's limited in his earning potential and that's just life and we celebrate those kinds of inequalities?

 

That's ugly thinking. 

 

You're telling me that's a part of the game you cherish and wouldn't change if you had to start it all over? 

 

The logic doesn't make any sense. There's no value being brought to the game with the perspective you have. You're only making it hard on people (yourself included). It's not any fairer to play it as it lies versus LC&P. Neither provides an advantage to players relative to one another yet it's objectively better for the game across course conditions. 

 

You just want to celebrate the suffering, but there's no actual value to it. 

 

That's just being masochistic. Of course in this case, it's not even that because you don't actually derive joy from it. You just tell yourself you do for the sake of outward appearances. 

 

So it's worse than masochism. It's a façade of masochism. It's masochism for appearance's sake, LOL.

 

That's absurd. And worse, your mandates determines the course for others. And that's another benefit of LC&P...you don't have to do it. It's literally an optional upgrade meant to eliminate unwanted variability in course conditions. If you do it sometimes, why not do it all the time? There's literally no good reason other than to keep golf as difficult and as uncertain as possible.  

 

And in a world where virtually no one shoots par, we want that why exactly? 

Edited January 17, 2022 by MelloYello

[jimbo123]

There's great value in copping a bad break, embracing the challenge and pulling off a good recovery.  I doubt anyone's happy to find themselves in a divot (or poverty! that would be masochistic), but getting out of it is hugely satisfying.  Far more rewarding and interesting than playing off the same fluffed up lie every shot.  

 

 

[MelloYello]

6 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

There's great value in copping a bad break, embracing the challenge and pulling off a good recovery.  I doubt anyone's happy to find themselves in a divot (or poverty! that would be masochistic), but getting out of it is hugely satisfying.  Far more rewarding and interesting than playing off the same fluffed up lie every shot.  

 

 

 

That's fine...

 

...it's just that I don't actually believe you. I don't believe you actually think that--that unintentionally bad lies are defensible. You're trained to say that because it's tradition. 

 

If you didn't have to hit out of a divot, you wouldn't. That proves the point. 

 

Do you shoot 65 everyday? The game is really that easy we need to embed further difficulty? LOL...you see my point. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by MelloYello

[klebs01]

19 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

I drew a comparison because the logic is the same in both cases.

 

If the logic is ugly and unappealing in one case, how can it be justified in another, let alone be called "charming?"

 

Guy A plays at a nicer course and thus gets to chip off perfectly manicured grass. Guy B plays at a lesser course and....what? We blame the greenskeeper who's working on a budget of 10% for not having the course be perfect? And we tell guy B to suck it up? 

 

You're telling me that's a part of the game you cherish and wouldn't change if you had to start it all over? 

 

The logic doesn't make any sense. There's no value being brought to the game with the perspective you have. You're only making it hard on people (yourself included). It's not any fairer to play it as it lies versus LC&P. Both are fair from the standpoint of players. 

 

You just want to celebrate the suffering, but there's no actual value to it. 

Where are these competitions with competitors playing different courses? I’ve never seen one or participated. It’s always the same course, so your comparison between courses is irrelevant. All competitors are playing the same course. 
 

I would absolutely keep the rule if I were to start the game now. Other than the objective to hole the ball, it is the most important rule, and one that should never go away. 
 

playing the ball as it lies is what brings all the interest to the game. It’s not just a matter of executing a repetitive motion, but of judging how the ball and club will react to the lie and figuring out the best shot. A lot of my most memorable shots are where I pulled off a shot from a very difficult lie. If it was LCP those would have just been simple shots. Golf would be very boring if it was just a test of how well I could repeat the same motion. 

[2bGood]

25 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

I drew a comparison because the logic is the same in both cases--and don't tell me you don't see it because you're obviously reacting to how ugly it is in the one case. So you do see it. 

 

If the logic is ugly and unappealing in one case, how can it be celebrated in another, let alone be called "charming?"

 

Guy A makes more money and plays at a nicer course and thus gets to chip off perfectly manicured grass. Guy B makes less and thus plays at a lesser course and....what? We blame the greens-keeper at Guy B's course who's working on a budget of 10% for not having the course be perfect? And we tell guy B to suck it up because he's limited in his earning potential and that's just life and we celebrate those kinds of inequalities?

 

That's ugly thinking. 

 

You're telling me that's a part of the game you cherish and wouldn't change if you had to start it all over? 

 

The logic doesn't make any sense. There's no value being brought to the game with the perspective you have. You're only making it hard on people (yourself included). It's not any fairer to play it as it lies versus LC&P. Neither provides an advantage to players relative to one another yet it's objectively better for the game across course conditions. 

 

You just want to celebrate the suffering, but there's no actual value to it. 

 

That's just being masochistic. Of course in this case, it's not even that because you don't actually derive joy from it. You just tell yourself you do for the sake of outward appearances. 

 

So it's worse than masochism. It's a façade of masochism. It's masochism for appearance's sake, LOL.

 

That's absurd. And worse, your mandates determines the course for others. And that's another benefit of LC&P...you don't have to do it. It's literally an optional upgrade meant to eliminate unwanted variability in course conditions. If you do it sometimes, why not do it all the time? There's literally no good reason other than to keep golf as difficult and as uncertain as possible.  

 

And in a world where virtually no one shoots par, we want that why exactly? 

 

I am lucky enough to play a lot of expensive course. I have never played a perfectly condition one. They all have some level of lumps and bumps and bare patches. Some more than others.

 

 

[MelloYello]

1 minute ago, 2bGood said:

 

I am lucky enough to play a lot of expensive course. I have never played a perfectly condition one. They all have some level of lumps and bumps and bare patches. Some more than others.

 

 

 

Haha....probably not going to find a lot of reason to LC&P on an expensive course. 

 

Play some crappy courses and tell me you prefer the inconsistent fairway lies on every single hole. That's the point. 

 

There's more inconsistency the further down the ladder you go. So this "play it as it lies" idea punishes people more the further down you go. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by MelloYello

[jimbo123]

Hahaha.   I appreciate your honesty, if somewhat condescending.  It's true though. 

 

Do you exercise?  Do you do it to the point it hurts, because of how good it feels afterwards, and because it makes you better?  Same mentality here.  

 

Or, maybe, you just like easy stuff, in which case, horses for courses.  

[MelloYello]

12 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

Where are these competitions with competitors playing different courses? I’ve never seen one or participated. It’s always the same course, so your comparison between courses is irrelevant. All competitors are playing the same course. 
 

I would absolutely keep the rule if I were to start the game now. Other than the objective to hole the ball, it is the most important rule, and one that should never go away. 
 

playing the ball as it lies is what brings all the interest to the game. It’s not just a matter of executing a repetitive motion, but of judging how the ball and club will react to the lie and figuring out the best shot. A lot of my most memorable shots are where I pulled off a shot from a very difficult lie. If it was LCP those would have just been simple shots. Golf would be very boring if it was just a test of how well I could repeat the same motion. 

 

No offense, but it's easy to judge a bad lie. There's no heroism in it. The ball comes off the club a groove lower, flies lower and carries less. 

 

That makes me a great golfer for knowing that? C'mon...it's such a bad argument. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by MelloYello

[MelloYello]

2 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

Hahaha.   I appreciate your honesty, if somewhat condescending.  It's true though. 

 

Do you exercise?  Do you do it to the point it hurts, because of how good it feels afterwards, and because it makes you better?  Same mentality here.  

 

Or, maybe, you just like easy stuff, in which case, horses for courses.  

 

Golf won't ever be easy. Golf is insanely hard--and yes, we should absolutely be strong enough to prioritize things that bring value to the experience and that isn't just about making it harder. Longer courses are harder but they're not necessarily better courses, are they?

 

It's just variation for variation's sake. It's like having a Kicker on a fantasy football team. What does it add? It's literally just adding noise to a game of what would otherwise be skillful prediction. There's no predicting what kicker will have a great week. It's noise. But having a kicker is a tradition! You can't not have a kicker! 

 

Just one of the many reasons I don't do fantasy anymore, LOL. 

[2bGood]

10 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Haha....probably not going to find a lot of reason to LC&P on an expensive course. 

 

Play some crappy courses and tell me you prefer the inconsistent fairway lies on every single hole. That's the point. 

 

There's more inconsistency the further down the ladder you go. So this "play it as it lies" idea punishes people more the further down you go. 

Not the case at all. I play lots of links golf for instance. Places like Port Rush, Bandon Dunes, the Old Course. Plenty of gnarly lies to be found despite paying $300+

 

I grew up playing a course with sand-greens. (greens made of sand and motor-oil, that you had to drag carpet screwed to broom poll to flatten) I know all about low rent courses. Still played the ball down there though. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by 2bGood

[MelloYello]

3 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Not the case at all. I play lots of links golf. Place like Port Rush, Bandon Dunes, the Old Course. Plenty of gnarly lies to be found.

 

Good point. I can see it being different for links-style golf. That's a different sport. 

 

The intention there is something different from typical American golf, I think. I don't think American golf is designed in such a way that imperfection can be celebrated. 

 

That said, there are challenges in American-style golf that would expose a purely links-accustomed player, too. They are simply different animals at their extremes. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by MelloYello