Order of Play

[Hawkeye77]

3 hours ago, davep043 said:

And returning to the Original Topic, I'm glad the rules provide a recommended (required for match play) order of play.  At least in the groups that I play with, we each understand the system, we each keep reasonable track of what each player shoots on each hole, so we know before we get to a tee which player should be playing first.  There's no need for discussion, no need for a polite "No, you go ahead....Oh please, you go first", we simply get ready and play in order.  And if for some reason a player isn't ready, he'll say that he's not ready, and invite the next guy to go first.  In my experience, the structure provided by the Rules assists in keeping pace of play moving, uncertainty would contribute to slower play.  

The above pretty much says all that needs to be said.

[Oh Hi Carl]

3 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

What you might be seeing is a holdover from AJGA. Their pace of play guidance requires:

 

Play ready golf throughout the entire round. The first player to hole out should go toward the next tee and be the first to tee off. The second player to finish should replace the flagstick.

 

This practice is quite simple and practical. 

 

My experience as a referee in college golf, though, has been that college players do not make much of an effort to keep it moving until it's about to rain or get dark. 😉

 

I have seen at least twice in televised college matches players playing a hole while a player in their group is stuck on the last hole getting a ruling.  I'll try to find a clip because I know it is hard for many to believe.  And I think this was implemented because, as you say, many of these players have pace of play problems.  

[Mr. Bean]

14 minutes ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

I have seen at least twice in televised college matches players playing a hole while a player in their group is stuck on the last hole getting a ruling.  I'll try to find a clip because I know it is hard for many to believe.  And I think this was implemented because, as you say, many of these players have pace of play problems.  

 

I believe you if you say so but that is not how it is supposed to be handled, IMHO. Reasons have been described earlier. There are other ways to handle PoP issues than forcing one single player entitled to a ruling run and catch up their group.

[Oh Hi Carl]

59 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I believe you if you say so but that is not how it is supposed to be handled, IMHO. Reasons have been described earlier. There are other ways to handle PoP issues than forcing one single player entitled to a ruling run and catch up their group.

I completely agree.  

[smashdn]

7 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

That's not a logical statement. 

 

Playing by the rules doesn't mean I wrote the rules. I didn't invent the game. 

 

I don't see value in treating every rule as if it's sanctified. There has to be a logical basis for it and it has to be consistent with the framework around it. 

 

I'm still yet to hear anyone justify this tradition of not touching the ball. It doesn't really ad anything. It's not more fair. It just embeds further variation and difficulty. Some are claiming that's good. I disagree. 

 

 

No there doesn't.  "That's just like, your opinion, man."

 

Keep in mind this game was dreamed up (and codified) by drunken Scots (redundant?) with ample time on their hands likely whacking rocks and sheep poo about on shortly nibbled grass near the sea using sticks "ill-suited to that purpose."  it is as logical as lacrosse.  Take a breath and enjoy it.

 

The tradition of not touching the ball is sort of a fundamental tenant of golf.  Me thinks the idea behind it is the mindset, "you hit it there dummy, now take your lumps and see if you can whack it back towards the target from there."  You are the beneficiary of your own proffer.  It can imbed further variation and difficulty in the game or it can offer you an advantage.  You may find your ball in a quite advantageous setting.  You are the beneficiary of whatever lie you have struck your ball into.  You did it and no one else.

 

Fundamentally, if you remove the variation in lie you have sort of dumbed the game down to Top Golf or a driving range with mats type of experience.

[Oh Hi Carl]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

it is as logical as lacrosse.  

 

Huh? 

[jordan2240]

8 hours ago, davep043 said:

And returning to the Original Topic, I'm glad the rules provide a recommended (required for match play) order of play.  At least in the groups that I play with, we each understand the system, we each keep reasonable track of what each player shoots on each hole, so we know before we get to a tee which player should be playing first.  There's no need for discussion, no need for a polite "No, you go ahead....Oh please, you go first", we simply get ready and play in order.  And if for some reason a player isn't ready, he'll say that he's not ready, and invite the next guy to go first.  In my experience, the structure provided by the Rules assists in keeping pace of play moving, uncertainty would contribute to slower play. 

I'll third this opinion.

 

As for the sub-topic of this thread, I'd never play LC&P because it would eliminate my excuse for half of my bad shots.  The other half involves animals making sounds during my backswing...

[oikos1]

14 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

I actually wonder if people wouldn't do that if it were financially plausible? Then again, it's not plausible so it's not what I was talking about. 

 

The inevitable inconsistencies in turf height/quality are what I was discussing. By definition, we seek to eliminate / minimize that through golf course maintenance with more premium courses spending increasing amounts to do so. Clearly, it's not a welcome, let alone desirable, part of the game. 

 

The funny thing is a permanent form of LC&P would be (A) optional for players and (B) just as fair as the current rules.

 

I wonder if there were people who argued against Air Conditioning when it was first invented? 

Boom.  There is the money shot!  If crappy lies were so "awesome" and "rewarding" to play from, no golf courses would be spending ridiculous amounts of money on agronomy and herbicides.  Golfers want good, fluffy lies from the fairway.  Just admit it people. 

[Purple Toupee]

23 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Boom.  There is the money shot!  If crappy lies were so "awesome" and "rewarding" to play from, no golf courses would be spending ridiculous amounts of money on agronomy and herbicides.  Golfers want good, fluffy lies from the fairway.  Just admit it people. 

Yes, we all want a good lie.  But some of us are able to accept it when it doesn’t happen.

[oikos1]

3 minutes ago, Purple Toupee said:

Yes, we all want a good lie.  But some of us are able to accept it when it doesn’t happen.

 

Thank you for your honesty.  I'm going to say the golf courses you are playing manipulate the agronomy (if incorrect I accept any corrections).  The "intent" already exists to provide a better lie than if the golf course didn't manipulate the conditions.  Changing the conditions of a lie through agronomy most certainly was not remotely in the thoughts of the "original" rules of golf.  The idea evolved.  Just like rules.

 

One of the issues that comes up often is the idea that a golfer isn't supposed to touch their ball.  A sacred tenant.  Yet within the rules of golf, there are numerous occasions where this is acceptable and a golfers lie may improve.  The idea of LCP in casual play is yet just another iteration of the idea that a golfer can touch their ball and potentially improve their lie.  It guarantees nothing.

 

 

 

[2bGood]

15 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

That's not a logical statement. 

 

Playing by the rules doesn't mean I wrote the rules. I didn't invent the game. 

 

I don't see value in treating every rule as if it's sanctified. There has to be a logical basis for it and it has to be consistent with the framework around it. 

 

I'm still yet to hear anyone justify this tradition of not touching the ball. It doesn't really ad anything. It's not more fair. It just embeds further variation and difficulty. Some are claiming that's good. I disagree. 

 

 

15 hours ago, MelloYello said:

Questioning the value of each rule and/or tradition seems pretty straight-forward and common-sense to me. 

 

I wonder...how exactly does one find it shocking to see a tradition questioned? Maybe this is one of those insular bubbles they talk about dominating the interwebs, LOL? 

.

Tradition? Or is it the very core of the game. Play the ball as it lies is the very basis of the games origin and is the golfs most base rule. 

 

I don't think there is any question the on balance LCP favours a less talented golfer. The less variation you encounter the less skill is needed. Does it make the game more fair to favour the lowest(lower) common denominator? I guess in a socialist sense it does, but I tend to think in the long run playing the ball down will more easily determine the most skilled gofer. 

 

 

[Imp]

21 hours ago, davep043 said:

And returning to the Original Topic, I'm glad the rules provide a recommended (required for match play) order of play.  At least in the groups that I play with, we each understand the system, we each keep reasonable track of what each player shoots on each hole, so we know before we get to a tee which player should be playing first.  There's no need for discussion, no need for a polite "No, you go ahead....Oh please, you go first", we simply get ready and play in order.  And if for some reason a player isn't ready, he'll say that he's not ready, and invite the next guy to go first.  In my experience, the structure provided by the Rules assists in keeping pace of play moving, uncertainty would contribute to slower play.  

Agreed. In your group, everyone understands this. What happens when 2 in your group are never ready and are always 3-4 on the order? As I've mentioned earlier, we have some guys that do it to some advantage... 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Imp

[sui generis]

6 minutes ago, Imp said:

What happens when 2 in your group are never ready and are always 3-4 on the order?

 

Then, you must conclude that it's not a Rules problem, but is a "group problem." (Surely, few would like a Rule change that required an order of play in stroke play.)

[davep043]

28 minutes ago, Imp said:

Agreed. In your group, everyone understands this. What happens when 2 in your group are never ready and are always 3-4 on the order? As I've mentioned earlier, we have some guys that do it to some advantage... 

As @sui generis says, you have a problem with individuals who understand the rule, yet are still looking to gain an advantage.  That's not an issue with the Rule.  And if the rest of the group continues to allow these "problem players" to continue to do this, without some kind of discussion, then you have an entire group of problem players.  

[nsxguy]

11 hours ago, oikos1 said:

 

Thank you for your honesty.  I'm going to say the golf courses you are playing manipulate the agronomy (if incorrect I accept any corrections).  The "intent" already exists to provide a better lie than if the golf course didn't manipulate the conditions.  Changing the conditions of a lie through agronomy most certainly was not remotely in the thoughts of the "original" rules of golf.  The idea evolved.  Just like rules.

 

One of the issues that comes up often is the idea that a golfer isn't supposed to touch their ball.  A sacred tenant.  Yet within the rules of golf, there are numerous occasions where this is acceptable and a golfers lie may improve.  The idea of LCP in casual play is yet just another iteration of the idea that a golfer can touch their ball and potentially improve their lie.  It guarantees nothing.

 

 

Sure it does. It guarantees one doesn't have to deal with a poor lie/bad break; something that the ROG insist one must do.

 

And btw, I don't know about your "manipulating the agronomy", and I wouldn't have mentioned this, but this is the 2nd time you've misused "tenant". The word you're looking for - "tenet". 👍

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by nsxguy

[rogolf]

14 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Sure it does. It guarantees one doesn't have to deal with a poor lie/bad break; something that the ROG insist one must do.

 

And btw, I don't know about your "manipulating the agronomy", and I wouldn't have mentioned this, but this is the 2nd time you've misused "tenant". The word you're looking for "tenet". 👍

Could rent a basement apartment to play billiards!

 

[oikos1]

17 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Sure it does. It guarantees one doesn't have to deal with a poor lie/bad break; something that the ROG insist one must do.

 

And btw, I don't know about your "manipulating the agronomy", and I wouldn't have mentioned this, but this is the 2nd time you've misused "tenant". The word you're looking for "tenet". 👍

But they don't always, do they?

 

Thank you for the correction.  😁

[nsxguy]

Just now, oikos1 said:

But they don't always, do they?

 

We're not doing this again, are we ?

[oikos1]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

We're not doing this again, are we ?

I don't know.  What are we doing?  😉

[smashdn]

1 minute ago, oikos1 said:

But they don't always, do they?

 

Yeah, they are exceptions to the general rule though.  Like, this is the rule unless this other situation comes up and then you handle it this way.

[oikos1]

11 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Yeah, they are exceptions to the general rule though.  Like, this is the rule unless this other situation comes up and then you handle it this way.

Completely agree.  That is exactly how a rule like LCP is used.  "This is the rule (play it down) unless the fairway is a muddy, watery mess".  MelloYellow seemed to be suggesting an addition to LCP, something like  "This is the rule (play it down) unless the fairway is pockmarked and poorly kept".

 

Considering that many groups play automatic LCP at golf courses all over the USA, I can see the point of the argument. 

 

 

[smashdn]

There is Golf and there is golf.  In the US, most play golf.  Rarely do we play Golf.  Also, we sort of have this resentment of authority bred into us.  We bend rules if not straight up break them as we see fit quite often.

 

"All those stuffy rules don't apply to me.  They are for those starched britches guys playing golf on TV."

 

Then guys start getting outside of the weekend buddies group and into some flavor of competition and it sort of smacks them upside the head.

 

Read the handicap thread that is also up near the top and you get to see the attitude.  it isn't that it is wrong necessarily but just different than how the UK does golf.

[oikos1]

Well, well, well...apparently there has been precedent in the past, and of all places for it to happen.  Lol!

 

CHANGES to the DECISIONS on the RULES OF GOLF January 1, 2010

From January 1, no relief allowed from divot hole or repaired divot hole

 

However, there is one change that will require immediate action by many club committees and the awareness of all golfers.
New decision 33-8/34 now removes the authority for a committee to make a local rule “providing relief without penalty from a divot hole or a repaired divot hole (i.e. filled with sand or seed mix)”
At least half the golf clubs in Scotland have such a local rule and these must be withdrawn immediately before any qualifying competitions for handicap purposes can be played. Such a local rule contravenes Rule 13-1 which states that a ball must be played as it lies and has generally not been used in professional and major amateur competitions.
It is often mistakenly believed that this rule protects the golf course. If relief is given or indeed demanded from a seeded divot hole, a second divot hole is created and requires repair, leaving two seeded divots holes. If the ball is played from the original hole it may require repair but only one hole remains.

[Mr. Bean]

Now THAT is interesting! Here in Finland I have never seen or even heard of such a LR to have been in use. I guess we are purists compared to the Scots 😎

[davep043]

10 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Well, well, well...apparently there has been precedent in the past, and of all places for it to happen.  Lol!

 

CHANGES to the DECISIONS on the RULES OF GOLF January 1, 2010

From January 1, no relief allowed from divot hole or repaired divot hole

 

However, there is one change that will require immediate action by many club committees and the awareness of all golfers.
New decision 33-8/34 now removes the authority for a committee to make a local rule “providing relief without penalty from a divot hole or a repaired divot hole (i.e. filled with sand or seed mix)”
At least half the golf clubs in Scotland have such a local rule and these must be withdrawn immediately before any qualifying competitions for handicap purposes can be played. Such a local rule contravenes Rule 13-1 which states that a ball must be played as it lies and has generally not been used in professional and major amateur competitions.
It is often mistakenly believed that this rule protects the golf course. If relief is given or indeed demanded from a seeded divot hole, a second divot hole is created and requires repair, leaving two seeded divots holes. If the ball is played from the original hole it may require repair but only one hole remains.

To be clear, from what I can gather those "local rules" were never authorized under the Rules of Golf.  The Decision you quote merely clarified that a Committee does not have the authority to enact any Local Rule they want to, in particular a Local Rule that directly modifies one of the Rules.  There were a whole bunch of Decisions that reinforce the limitations on a Committee's authority. 

[oikos1]

4 hours ago, davep043 said:

To be clear, from what I can gather those "local rules" were never authorized under the Rules of Golf.  The Decision you quote merely clarified that a Committee does not have the authority to enact any Local Rule they want to, in particular a Local Rule that directly modifies one of the Rules.  There were a whole bunch of Decisions that reinforce the limitations on a Committee's authority. 

Perhaps not.  There is some debate as to whether or not the R&A was aware of such practices.  The more interesting result is the idea that a "new decision" was even needed to clarify the rule.  In other words, clubs in Scotland (attributed as the birthplace of golf) believed they had the ability to implement such a rule, perhaps even if only in casual play, and it didn't cause the ruin of golf.  Apparently, some of the clubs, and golfers, did not share the same views on being granted relief as some profess in these threads as the "sacredness" of the game. 

[Mr. Bean]

It would be great to see one of those LR's for the wording. As on this forum has been many times noted it is impossible to distinguish a completely heeled divot hole from partially heeled one. So it is the sheer impossibility to create such a LR that would be impartial by the users.

[Hawkeye77]

 

18 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Perhaps not.  There is some debate as to whether or not the R&A was aware of such practices.  The more interesting result is the idea that a "new decision" was even needed to clarify the rule.  In other words, clubs in Scotland (attributed as the birthplace of golf) believed they had the ability to implement such a rule, perhaps even if only in casual play, and it didn't cause the ruin of golf.  Apparently, some of the clubs, and golfers, did not share the same views on being granted relief as some profess in these threads as the "sacredness" of the game. 

 

Listened to one too many Yank tourists!

[davep043]

26 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

It would be great to see one of those LR's for the wording. As on this forum has been many times noted it is impossible to distinguish a completely heeled divot hole from partially heeled one. So it is the sheer impossibility to create such a LR that would be impartial by the users.

Agree, in particular because the Decision referred to relief from both un-repaired divot holes as well as holes that had been repaired or filled with sand or seed mix.  @oikos1, do you have the source for that snippet of information you quoted?  Did it have any additional clarifications?

[Unplayablelies]

If I play in a tournament I would go with honors….until it became apparent that the others in the group played ready golf. The other 95% of the time it’s ready golf and I don’t even ask