Why not just sandbag?

[jmcm87]

18 hours ago, naval2006 said:

I guess golfers who enter and have the potential to win gross comps don’t even know what GolfWRX is. 

Au contraire 😉

 

Even a handful of us that frequent Monday Q's and don't embarrass ourselves.

Edited May 16, 2022 by jmcm87

[trilerian]

So, as one of the few people on here that practices multiple days a week and still is awful at this game, I will say there is no way I would pay money to play in a tournament I have no chance in placing in.  While I do have the pipe dream of eventually playing in the championship flight, right now that is just a fantasy, and playing in that flight now would be demoralizing and a waste of money.   Hence flighted tournaments...  Maybe instead of thinking of them as one tournament, think of them as 4 or 5 separate tournaments that just happen to be played at the same time and course.  

 

 

[Krt22]

6 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

Not talking about OP, I haven't even read most of this thread. I'm talking about bigger picture and pointing out what I believe regarding flighted tournaments to stop sandbagging which is an issue. The prize should not be the same for the guy who shoots +20 in c flight tournament vs. the guy who wins championship flight at -2. Until you fix that, sandbagging will always be an issue.

Well maybe you should read the thread and topic you are commenting on.

 

Either way, this still makes no sense and has nothing to do with the "sandbagging issue". Tournament participation would be paltry if flighted events did not exist, you can look at the USGA index distribution to understand why. At most clubs the big events (Club champ, member member, member guest) have flight winners and over-all winners. To become an over-all winner, you first have to win your flight, then you go to the shoot-out/horse race/etc which format almost always favors the lower index guys. If you can't understand why you need to beat everyone in your flight first to advance, I am not sure what else to tell you.

 

Flighted events in golf are no different than weight classes in combat sports, the entire premise is to compete on a mostly level playing field. In order to win, you need to beat competitors similar in skill. Is a 0-10 heavyweight a "better" boxer because he can easily knock out a 10-0 featherweight? 

[Krt22]

3 minutes ago, trilerian said:

So, as one of the few people on here that practices multiple days a week and still is awful at this game, I will say there is no way I would pay money to play in a tournament I have no chance in placing in.  While I do have the pipe dream of eventually playing in the championship flight, right now that is just a fantasy, and playing in that flight now would be demoralizing and a waste of money.   Hence flighted tournaments...  Maybe instead of thinking of them as one tournament, think of them as 4 or 5 separate tournaments that just happen to be played at the same time and course.  

 

 

That is exactly what they are. The flight payouts are all the same because they are based on how many golfers there are in each flight. Much like smaller professional events where the prize money is essentially the entry fees of everyone who has entered. The more people you beat, the bigger the prize, pretty straight forward. If flighted net events didn't exist, you would have very small "tournaments" of low index guys and everyone else simply would not participate. I wonder who they would then blame when they still can't beat 8-10 other guys.

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

6 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Well maybe you should read the thread and topic you are commenting on.

 

Either way, this still makes no sense and has nothing to do with the "sandbagging issue". Tournament participation would be paltry if flighted events did not exist, you can look at the USGA index distribution to understand why. At most clubs the big events (Club champ, member member, member guest) have flight winners and over-all winners. To become an over-all winner, you first have to win your flight, then you go to the shoot-out/horse race/etc which format almost always favors the lower index guys. If you can't understand why you need to beat everyone in your flight first to advance, I am not sure what else to tell you.

 

Flighted events in golf are no different than weight classes in combat sports, the entire premise is to compete on a mostly level playing field. In order to win, you need to beat competitors similar in skill. Is a 0-10 heavyweight a "better" boxer because he can easily knock out a 10-0 featherweight? 

 

dude, get over yourself. If you think you can talk to me like that, I guarantee you wouldn't in person that is for sure.

 

I read the topic and a few posts, it states "Why not just sandbag". My posts are in relation to many points he made regarding prize money and sandbagging. 

 

If you read my posts I have said as much that flighted events are needed to increase participation. If you don't think sandbagging is an issue then I have a bridge to sell you.

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

dude, get over yourself. If you think you can talk to me like that, I guarantee you wouldn't in person that is for sure.

 

I read the topic and a few posts, it states "Why not just sandbag". My posts are in relation to many points he made regarding prize money and sandbagging. 

 

If you read my posts I have said as much that flighted events are needed to increase participation. If you don't think sandbagging is an issue then I have a bridge to sell you.

lol the only one who needs to get over themselves is you, Mr. Internet tough guy. Give me a break with that non-sense. Is it not reasonable to expect people to read the topic at hand when commenting?

 

The OP claims to be a 0.6 and is griping he didn't get prize money after shooting +14 over two days. Again tell me how this is a sand bagging issue? If you enter a flighted event, shoot well over your index, "sandbagging" isnt the issue,  it's you and your game. Expecting prize money just because you shot a lower gross score than someone else in an entirely different flight is absurd.

[MK7Golf21]

18 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Well maybe you should read the thread and topic you are commenting on.

 

Either way, this still makes no sense and has nothing to do with the "sandbagging issue". Tournament participation would be paltry if flighted events did not exist, you can look at the USGA index distribution to understand why. At most clubs the big events (Club champ, member member, member guest) have flight winners and over-all winners. To become an over-all winner, you first have to win your flight, then you go to the shoot-out/horse race/etc which format almost always favors the lower index guys. If you can't understand why you need to beat everyone in your flight first to advance, I am not sure what else to tell you.

 

Flighted events in golf are no different than weight classes in combat sports, the entire premise is to compete on a mostly level playing field. In order to win, you need to beat competitors similar in skill. Is a 0-10 heavyweight a "better" boxer because he can easily knock out a 10-0 featherweight? 

 

This is completely not true at all and laughable. Combat sports have weight classes so the true skill of your craft shows up in the match. Being in a different weight class doesn't mean you have less skill in the sport, it means you weigh less. They are actually setting the sport up for the skill to be displayed instead of just physically size. On the contrary for golf flighted matches the people in c flight are significantly less skilled than the players in championship flight. Totally different but good try.

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

This is completely not true at all and laughable. Combat sports have weight classes so the true skill of your craft shows up in the match. Being in a different weight class doesn't mean you have less skill in the sport, it means you weigh less. They are actually setting the sport up for the skill to be displayed instead of just physically size. On the contrary for golf flighted matches the people in c flight are significantly less skilled than the players in championship flight. Totally different but good try.

In some cases yes, in some cases no. There are lots of highly skilled golfers who's index is what it is simply because they are aging and can't hit it as far as they used to. That is why most clubs will have both a club championship and a senior club championship, obviously the the older guys will give it a go in the club championship, but typically end up in the lower flights. At the end of the day flighted events exist for a reason, to compete on a level playing field and for the most part work well. Sandbagging is an issue in some clubs/tournaments, but the lower you are, the less of an issue. If you really think it's a big issue, well only play gross events, simple.

 

Knowingly entering a flighted event and expecting larger purses for being a lower index golfer is just silly and absurd though. That certainly isn't going to solve the "sandbagging issue" that somehow prevents someone from shooting their index in a 2-day tournament. You can't start to blame sandbagging until you start shooting your index or slightly better when it matters.

[MK7Golf21]

12 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

In some cases yes, in some cases no. There are lots of highly skilled golfers who's index is what it is simply because they are aging and can't hit it as far as they used to. That is why most clubs will have both a club championship and a senior club championship, obviously the the older guys will give it a go in the club championship, but typically end up in the lower flights. At the end of the day flighted events exist for a reason, to compete on a level playing field and for the most part work well. Sandbagging is an issue in some clubs/tournaments, but the lower you are, the less of an issue. If you really think it's a big issue, well only play gross events, simple.

 

Knowingly entering a flighted event and expecting larger purses for being a lower index golfer is just silly and absurd though. That certainly isn't going to solve the "sandbagging issue" that somehow prevents someone from shooting their index in a 2-day tournament. You can't start to blame sandbagging until you start shooting your index or slightly better when it matters.

 

Regarding age that is why we have Senior tournaments vs normal tournaments. Our men's city championship flight has many older guys who qualify for it and compete in that flight and that is because they work hard to keep their skill in playing. That is one of unique things about golf, you can play at a high level for a very long time.

[MK7Golf21]

42 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

In some cases yes, in some cases no. There are lots of highly skilled golfers who's index is what it is simply because they are aging and can't hit it as far as they used to. That is why most clubs will have both a club championship and a senior club championship, obviously the the older guys will give it a go in the club championship, but typically end up in the lower flights. At the end of the day flighted events exist for a reason, to compete on a level playing field and for the most part work well. Sandbagging is an issue in some clubs/tournaments, but the lower you are, the less of an issue. If you really think it's a big issue, well only play gross events, simple.

 

Knowingly entering a flighted event and expecting larger purses for being a lower index golfer is just silly and absurd though. That certainly isn't going to solve the "sandbagging issue" that somehow prevents someone from shooting their index in a 2-day tournament. You can't start to blame sandbagging until you start shooting your index or slightly better when it matters.

 

you compared combat sports weight classes to golf flights, lol, literally no comparison. Now wondrously throwing around age. You lose your skill in sports as you age just how it is. Golf is a little different in that you can keep the skill longer than most sports. 

[Krt22]

If you really can't understand the similarities, that tells me all I need to know about your reasoning abilities. All analogies aside, your "fix" for sandbagging still isn't going to do diddly for the guy who can't shoot his index when it matters. We are done here 😃 

[MK7Golf21]

12 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

If you really can't understand the similarities, that tells me all I need to know about your reasoning abilities. All analogies aside, your "fix" for sandbagging still isn't going to do diddly for the guy who can't shoot his index when it matters. We are done here 😃 

They aren’t similar at all

Edited May 16, 2022 by MK7Golf21

[Augster]

In before the lock…

 

You were in 1st flight, crapped the bed, and feel you should win money from OTHER FLIGHTS? They aren’t even in the same competition. 
 

This has to be a joke or troll. Nobody can seriously think like this. 
 

Each flight is it’s own tourney. You weren’t in that tourney, but they should pay you like you were? So you get to double dip. If you play well, you get money from the 1st flight, and when you play poorly, you feel you should get money from the 3rd flight. 
 

What about the guy that finished 1st in 1st flight. He whooped you in 1st flight AND 3rd flight. Shouldn’t he get paid before you do?

 

This thread is complete nonsense. 
 

 

[larrybud]

On 5/15/2022 at 6:41 PM, MelloYello said:

That said, +15 should beat +17 and +19 if you're handing out money, IMHO. 

 

Here's what gets me...there were a bunch of other golfers involved who won money yet shot scores that were worse all because they got to play in lesser flights. Say what you will about flighting, but that stinks. I understand I'm a "better" player and I'm expected to play as such but I'm better because I practice. And if I beat these guys in a Gross event because I'm slightly sharper, shouldn't that matter? This is specifically supposed to be a Gross event. Flighting it just ruins it, does it not? 

The flights were predetermined, right?  If so, then each flight is it's own event. What someone else shot in other flights is meaningless.

Now, if flighting was done AFTER the first round, then it's just silly golf, and no way would I play in something like that.

[deadsolid...shank]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

In before the lock…

 

You were in 1st flight, crapped the bed, and feel you should win money from OTHER FLIGHTS? They aren’t even in the same competition. 
 

This has to be a joke or troll. Nobody can seriously think like this. 
 

Each flight is it’s own tourney. You weren’t in that tourney, but they should pay you like you were? So you get to double dip. If you play well, you get money from the 1st flight, and when you play poorly, you feel you should get money from the 3rd flight. 
 

What about the guy that finished 1st in 1st flight. He whooped you in 1st flight AND 3rd flight. Shouldn’t he get paid before you do?

 

This thread is complete nonsense. 
 

 

I have to agree. I’ve been playing for a lot of years. In a lot of flighted tournaments.  This is honestly the first time I’ve ever heard someone say something like this. 
 

Given the OP’s parameters, the CC (or any similar tournament) will have about five people playing. Sounds fun for the rest of the members. 

[No_Ugos]

14 hours ago, tatertot said:

"Everyone gets a trophy" has nothing to do with honor. I'm sorry ... there is nothing honorable about "winning" the 7th flight. It signifies you happened to have the 71st best score that day. Meaningless. Honor is competing. You don't have to "win" something to have honor. You don't get it.

I never said you had to win to have honor. I was saying the game itself is about honor. Honor makes you keep accurate scores and penalties, it isn’t about winning at all it’s about playing it and conducting tours wild the right way, which the OP has shown multiple times that he doesn’t have it. 
 

I'm not sure where you’re getting that from, maybe try re-reading my post. 

[No_Ugos]

13 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

The guy is just trolling. He's going to get himself banned. Give it time, the Mods will boot him. 

Not agreeing with your absurd arguments is not trolling.
 

You come off as an entitled, immature brat. I’m not saying that is what you are, but that’s how you’re presenting yourself. 
 

Should the winner of the NIT basketball tournament not get a trophy because a team who was eliminated in the elite 8 of the NCAA tournament thinks it’s unfair?

 

Plenty of sports have flights. AAA, AA, A a baseball for example. Should they not get rewarded for winning their league because they’re not good enough to play in the majors?

 

For someone who dismissed the white tee tournament as hit and giggle, you sure are upset about it. 
 

When your skills deteriorate with age, you’ll be glad there are flighted tournaments. 

[No_Ugos]

14 hours ago, North Butte said:

So in OP's ideal world, what exactly would the club championship event look like? 

 

1) It would exclude anyone who is a plus handicap (because OP knows they would smoke him).

2) It would all be in one flight, with no strokes given

3) And somehow or another 50 or more double-digit handicappers would be forced to pay entry fees just for the privilege of playing in an event they can't possibly come within a dozen shots of winning on their best day.

 

Do I have the wish list just about right? 

Careful, the OP might report you and try to get you banned

[No_Ugos]

13 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

No clue about Ayn Rand. 

 

You've never come across SBMM anywhere? No offense but video games are way more popular than golf and it's been around for a long time there as a sort of cancer that the majority of gamers complain about. 

 

Make fun of video games if you will but they're 1000x more potent and competitive than golf. A high-level match of CoD is like main-lining heroin compared to golf and it was ruined entirely by SBMM. 

 

Same exact thing. Catered to weaker players. The only people who could survive were noobs and Pros who played 12 hours a day. Doesn't that sound a bit like golf? Who really wins? Elite players do. Bad players do. And of course, sand-baggers. 

 

And what are the Content Creators turning to with SBMM? Sand-bagging! 

 

LOL...it's the same thing. 

If you mainlined less call of duty, maybe you would have cashed. 
 

Is this your first tournament, or the first one where you noticed other flights get paid too. 
 

This might blow your mind, but in my club KPs are flighted too…

 

Should a 16 handicap complain that a scratch golfer got a KP payout as well if the 16 stuck it closer than the scratch? Get real. 

[No_Ugos]

11 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

I agree about handicap events but if it wasn't setup that way then probably wouldn't get near as much participation. They should have more money for prizes in the 1st flight vs. 2nd and 3rd though. Like no one in the second flight can win as much as winners in first flight. 

That’s fine if the lower flights pay less money for their entry fees at a prorated amount. 

[GolfTurkey]

This is seriously bizarre. Any sport I've ever played has different divisions to separate age / gender / ability / whatever.

 

At my golf club, everyone paid the same entrance fee for club champs regardless of flight. If anything the B or C grade should have paid higher prize money because there are more people in those divisions. Unfortunately some people manipulate their handicaps but I'm not going to get bent out of shape over relative peanuts. Everyone knows who those guys are, and if they're happy to be known as cheaters for $100 then so be it.

 

Incidentally the worst sandbagger I ever saw was at an old club of mine and he played in the A division. He was a multiple time (gross) club championship winner but somehow maintained a handicap around 4. Perhaps he is the mythical GolfWrx 4 handicapper that can beat LPGA pro's.

 

This guy was quite capable of shooting 65-70-67 on a respectably difficult golf course. It was equally annoying and hilarious seeing him win the gross by 8 strokes and the nett by 30+ strokes!

 

 

 

 

 

[GwrxMod]

We’re done here. 🔒