Why not just sandbag?

[MelloYello]

Recently, we wrapped up our Men's White-Tee Division Club Championship which is just for fun. It's a 2-round hit-and-giggle alternative to the 3-day Blue Tee CC that actually matters. Since I couldn't get off work Friday due to pulling double-duty at work, I couldn't do the actual Blue division CC which started Friday afternoon. So I did the White as a means to at least play some golf over the weekend. 

 

First things first, I played terrible on day-2 and I don't for a moment think I deserve to win money. I was 1 shot off the lead after Saturday's opening round and followed it up with one of the worst rounds of the year (83). Not fun at all but oh, well. It's all on me and performances like that shouldn't win money. Drove it into two hazards early and missed a half-dozen short putts. Just atrocious playing with nothing at all redeeming. 

 

That said, +15 should beat +17 and +19 if you're handing out money, IMHO. 

 

Here's what gets me...there were a bunch of other golfers involved who won money yet shot scores that were worse all because they got to play in lesser flights. Say what you will about flighting, but that stinks. I understand I'm a "better" player and I'm expected to play as such but I'm better because I practice. And if I beat these guys in a Gross event because I'm slightly sharper, shouldn't that matter? This is specifically supposed to be a Gross event. Flighting it just ruins it, does it not? 

 

I practice so I can beat those guys. And yet it's considered fair for them to get pay-outs while I don't? While I know that sounds like sour grapes, I don't want anyone who shot +15 over two days to win money. Personally, I think only the Top-3, -5 or -6 should get pay-outs. Let the rest leave saying "maybe next year." 

 

I'm just saying it doesn't feel good to practice a bunch only to lower your handicap and have someone else show up, do worse and yet take home money while you get nothing. And it's so often the same guys.

 

After getting clipped by a sandbagger a few weeks ago in my work tournament I have half a mind to just say 'screw it' and go all in on handicap manipulation. Either that or I'm just going to stop supporting my club in these events. I don't want to be "that guy" who boycotts his club, but at the same time, this is bogus IMHO. 

 

I practice way too much to contend with this compensate-for-those-who-don't-practice stuff. Look, I have a job and a life. I'm not a pro but I spend thousands at my club and this just rubs me the wrong way when guys who don't support the club nearly as much profit. Am I just a sore loser or should the money simply go to the top guys on a single, overall leaderboard? Why not just pay out the Top-5 or top-6, which wouldn't have included my T8 finish, btw. 

 

[jvincent]

To your point, if you don't run flights then you won't get enough people playing.

 

It sounds like your CC is run more or less like ours. Our "open" CC, for which the winner gets the parking spot, name on the board, etc. Is 3-days, all strokes count.

 

We then have A. B, and C flights. They are 2-day Stableford scoring.  The different flights play from different tees which makes comparing the flights somewhat irrelevant. 

[MikeW2]

By your last chart you finished 6th or 7th in your flight. That is who you are competing against. Every club has competitions that are flighted, should those who are in lower flights not have a prize structure? I understand the irritation of losing to sandbaggers or even to lesser players but by your own admission you didn’t play well on day 2. That is likely the reason you didn’t cash out in your flight. As far as manipulation of your handicap, if you go that route you’ll be no different than the players about whom you complain.

[MelloYello]

22 minutes ago, jvincent said:

To your point, if you don't run flights then you won't get enough people playing.

 

It sounds like your CC is run more or less like ours. Our "open" CC, for which the winner gets the parking spot, name on the board, etc. Is 3-days, all strokes count.

 

We then have A. B, and C flights. They are 2-day Stableford scoring.  The different flights play from different tees which makes comparing the flights somewhat irrelevant. 

 

Yeah, I assume it's standard but man, does it feel awful. 

 

I very much wanted to compete in the "open" / Blue-Tee / 3-day event and absolutely would've had I been free. I would've gotten smoked by the 4-5 elite players at the top but I surely would've had a lot of fun with the other low handicaps playing in it. 

 

We're trying to push for having these 3 events (Blue Tee, White Tee, Stableford) all broken up and held on separate weekends so guys like me can do all 3 and have fun. Many of us feel that should at least be the case for the Blue & White tee events. 

 

For some dumb reason we do them all (along with 3 Women's divisions) on 1 single weekend. 

 

.

Edited May 15, 2022 by MelloYello

[MelloYello]

17 minutes ago, MikeW2 said:

By your last chart you finished 6th or 7th in your flight. That is who you are competing against. Every club has competitions that are flighted, should those who are in lower flights not have a prize structure? I understand the irritation of losing to sandbaggers or even to lesser players but by your own admission you didn’t play well on day 2. That is likely the reason you didn’t cash out in your flight. As far as manipulation of your handicap, if you go that route you’ll be no different than the players about whom you complain.

 

Exactly, I'm beating them and not getting paid so why not just be a 5-index, fall back to Flight 2 (a nonsense designation that shouldn't exist in a Gross event anyway) and take my $120 as I magically play well? 

 

Why flight these things? Would you have done that? And why? To make a 10-index feel good? 

 

Sorry, he gets privileged over those who practice more? That's ridiculous. This isn't a Net event. It should be winner(s) take all. 

 

I don't mind if the guys above me win more money...I just don't want guys BELOW me getting paid while I don't. That's not a good look. 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by MelloYello

[mokedaddy]

Is your honor worth more than $120?

[Double Mocha Man]

46 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

Recently, we wrapped up our Men's White-Tee Division Club Championship which is just for fun. It's a 2-round hit-and-giggle alternative to the 3-day Blue Tee CC that actually matters. Since I couldn't get off work Friday due to pulling double-duty at work, I couldn't do the actual Blue division CC which started Friday afternoon. So I did the White as a means to at least play some golf over the weekend. 

 

First things first, I played terrible on day-2 and I don't for a moment think I deserve to win money. I was 1 shot off the lead after Saturday's opening round and followed it up with one of the worst rounds of the year (83). Not fun at all but oh, well. It's all on me and performances like that shouldn't win money. Drove it into two hazards early and missed a half-dozen short putts. Just atrocious playing with nothing at all redeeming. 

 

That said, +15 should beat +17 and +19 if you're handing out money, IMHO. 

 

Here's what gets me...there were a bunch of other golfers involved who won money yet shot scores that were worse all because they got to play in lesser flights. Say what you will about flighting, but that stinks. I understand I'm a "better" player and I'm expected to play as such but I'm better because I practice. And if I beat these guys in a Gross event because I'm slightly sharper, shouldn't that matter? This is specifically supposed to be a Gross event. Flighting it just ruins it, does it not? 

 

I practice so I can beat those guys. And yet it's considered fair for them to get pay-outs while I don't? While I know that sounds like sour grapes, I don't want anyone who shot +15 over two days to win money. Personally, I think only the Top-3, -5 or -6 should get pay-outs. Let the rest leave saying "maybe next year." 

 

I'm just saying it doesn't feel good to practice a bunch only to lower your handicap and have someone else show up, do worse and yet take home money while you get nothing. And it's so often the same guys.

 

After getting clipped by a sandbagger a few weeks ago in my work tournament I have half a mind to just say 'screw it' and go all in on handicap manipulation. Either that or I'm just going to stop supporting my club in these events. I don't want to be "that guy" who boycotts his club, but at the same time, this is bogus IMHO. 

 

I practice way too much to contend with this compensate-for-those-who-don't-practice stuff. Look, I have a job and a life. I'm not a pro but I spend thousands at my club and this just rubs me the wrong way when guys who don't support the club nearly as much profit. Am I just a sore loser or should the money simply go to the top guys on a single, overall leaderboard? Why not just pay out the Top-5 or top-6, which wouldn't have included my T8 finish, btw. 

 

With all due respect Mello Yello, practice does not count in tournaments.  V.J. Singh used to out-practice everyone else but he didn't win every tournament.  Personally, I am a heavy "practicer" but it doesn't always relate to actual rounds on the course.  I have accepted this.  In the long run your practice may win out, but not every time.  Be patient.  Have a gin & tonic at the 19th hole and congratulate your competitors.  Even if they don't pay as much at the club or get their cable TV for less.

[MelloYello]

6 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

With all due respect Mello Yello, practice does not count in tournaments.  V.J. Singh used to out-practice everyone else but he didn't win every tournament.  Personally, I am a heavy "practicer" but it doesn't always relate to actual rounds on the course.  I have accepted this.  In the long run your practice may win out, but not every time.  Be patient.  Have a gin & tonic at the 19th hole and congratulate your competitors.  Even if they don't pay as much at the club or get their cable TV for less.

 

But answer the actual question....you think someone who does worse should get $$ while someone who beats them outright doesn't? 

 

Again, I don't want the money, in fact, I want it going to my playing partner who won the overall!

 

Why is he who won outright getting the same $120 as the chumps who shot +11 and +14, relative to him?! 

 

That's weak sauce. I'm griping on HIS behalf! IMHO, it's he and the guys at the top who are getting screwed. 

 

I don't think you're even looking at the issue here. 

[MelloYello]

20 minutes ago, mokedaddy said:

Is your honor worth more than $120?

 

Where's the honor in taking $120 that isn't yours? 

 

My buddy won and gets the same as the dudes who shot 11 and 14 worse than him in a Gross event. 

 

You think that's reasonable? I think that's embarrassing.

 

 

 

[mokedaddy]

7 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Where's the honor in taking $120 that isn't yours? 

 

My buddy won and gets the same as the dudes who shot 11 and 14 worse than him in a Gross event. 

 

You think that's reasonable? I think that's embarrassing.

 

 

 

So now they stole the money?  C’mon man.  If you don’t like the rules of flighted events don’t play in flighted events.  It’s not like you didn’t know the rules beforehand.

 

edit:  I get your frustration and sometimes it helps to vent but big picture it is what it is.  

Edited May 15, 2022 by mokedaddy

[Double Mocha Man]

20 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

But answer the actual question....you think someone who does worse should get $$ while someone who beats them outright doesn't? 

 

Again, I don't want the money, in fact, I want it going to my playing partner who won the overall!

 

Why is he who won outright getting the same $120 as the chumps who shot +11 and +14, relative to him?! 

 

That's weak sauce. I'm griping on HIS behalf! IMHO, it's he and the guys at the top who are getting screwed. 

 

I don't think you're even looking at the issue here. 

I'm looking.  When you deign to enter a tournament where there's a net division this will oftentimes be the outcome.

 

Keep practicing, but don't expect a 100% good outcome.  Or stay out of flighted/net tournaments.

 

Good luck going forward.

[tatertot]

1 hour ago, MelloYello said:

Recently, we wrapped up our Men's White-Tee Division Club Championship which is just for fun. It's a 2-round hit-and-giggle alternative to the 3-day Blue Tee CC that actually matters. Since I couldn't get off work Friday due to pulling double-duty at work, I couldn't do the actual Blue division CC which started Friday afternoon. So I did the White as a means to at least play some golf over the weekend. 

 

First things first, I played terrible on day-2 and I don't for a moment think I deserve to win money. I was 1 shot off the lead after Saturday's opening round and followed it up with one of the worst rounds of the year (83). Not fun at all but oh, well. It's all on me and performances like that shouldn't win money. Drove it into two hazards early and missed a half-dozen short putts. Just atrocious playing with nothing at all redeeming. 

 

That said, +15 should beat +17 and +19 if you're handing out money, IMHO. 

 

Here's what gets me...there were a bunch of other golfers involved who won money yet shot scores that were worse all because they got to play in lesser flights. Say what you will about flighting, but that stinks. I understand I'm a "better" player and I'm expected to play as such but I'm better because I practice. And if I beat these guys in a Gross event because I'm slightly sharper, shouldn't that matter? This is specifically supposed to be a Gross event. Flighting it just ruins it, does it not? 

 

I practice so I can beat those guys. And yet it's considered fair for them to get pay-outs while I don't? While I know that sounds like sour grapes, I don't want anyone who shot +15 over two days to win money. Personally, I think only the Top-3, -5 or -6 should get pay-outs. Let the rest leave saying "maybe next year." 

 

I'm just saying it doesn't feel good to practice a bunch only to lower your handicap and have someone else show up, do worse and yet take home money while you get nothing. And it's so often the same guys.

 

After getting clipped by a sandbagger a few weeks ago in my work tournament I have half a mind to just say 'screw it' and go all in on handicap manipulation. Either that or I'm just going to stop supporting my club in these events. I don't want to be "that guy" who boycotts his club, but at the same time, this is bogus IMHO. 

 

I practice way too much to contend with this compensate-for-those-who-don't-practice stuff. Look, I have a job and a life. I'm not a pro but I spend thousands at my club and this just rubs me the wrong way when guys who don't support the club nearly as much profit. Am I just a sore loser or should the money simply go to the top guys on a single, overall leaderboard? Why not just pay out the Top-5 or top-6, which wouldn't have included my T8 finish, btw. 

 

Are you new to golf?

[sui generis]

9 minutes ago, tatertot said:

Are you new to golf?

 

He may or may not be "new to golf." 

 

However, what's not new is the sense of entitlement that some scratch players have. They enter a handicapped competition and then pi$$ and moan because they didn't win all the shop credits! 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by sui generis

[tatertot]

12 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

He may or may not be "new to golf." 

 

However, what's not new is the sense of entitlement that some scratch players have. They enter a handicapped competition and then pi$$ and moan because they didn't win all the shop credits! 

 

 

It's frustrating ... you work and practice to get better, and "lose" to guys that don't put in any time or effort into the game. Golf is one of the few "sports" in the world that rewards participants for never improving.

[sui generis]

6 minutes ago, tatertot said:

It's frustrating ... you work and practice to get better, and "lose" to guys that don't put in any time or effort into the game. Golf is one of the few "sports" in the world that rewards participants for never improving.

 

You and yellowpants should never enter handicapped events. Stick with the scratch stuff, surely you'll always win . . . simply because you take more lessons, practice more, play $5 golf balls, have a Stitch bag. Oh, and you're a natural athlete. 😉

[dan360]

You had a bad round and ended up in the back of the good flight.   The rest of the players got participation trophies for being in the suck flights.

 

There's a spin for everything, and no matter how the scoring is done, someone will always be on the outside looking in.   

 

Don't cheat, though.  That's just crappy. 

[raynorfan1]

The issue here is that you fundamentally misunderstand the competition. You'd like it to be a demonstration of who the best golfer is - the person who puts the time and effort in to improve gets rewarded. But that's not how a lot of club comps are structured. They're answering the question: who had the best round, taking into account their fundamental skill level, and that frustrates you. This just isn't the game for you.

 

You'll have a lot more fun getting your butt kicked in the gross club championship...

[tatertot]

16 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

You and yellowpants should never enter handicapped events. Stick with the scratch stuff, surely you'll always win . . . simply because you take more lessons, practice more, play $5 golf balls, have a Stitch bag. Oh, and you're a natural athlete. 😉

You couldn't be more wrong ... I've never had a lesson, don't play Pro V1s, don't have a Stitch bag, and not a natural athlete. 

 

But you were right about handicap events. I don't play them. I'll play anybody straight up. Might lose, might win, but won't get sandbagged by somebody, or beat by a 36 capper who rolls in a 45 footer for par. 

 

Some guys work hard at golf ... some guys spend more time on GolfWRX with wink emoticons. We know where you fall.

 

EDIT:

While it is frustrating, it is understandable and you have to know there are 2 different kinds of competitions for different kinds of golfers. Neither one is right, they're just different.

Edited May 16, 2022 by tatertot

[tatertot]

3 minutes ago, raynorfan1 said:

The issue here is that you fundamentally misunderstand the competition. You'd like it to be a demonstration of who the best golfer is - the person who puts the time and effort in to improve gets rewarded. But that's not how a lot of club comps are structured. They're answering the question: who had the best round, taking into account their fundamental skill level, and that frustrates you. This just isn't the game for you.

 

You'll have a lot more fun getting your butt kicked in the gross club championship...

This is what I meant by my post ... handicaps and flights are all about this ... if you want a competition of skill, enter a different competition.

[MikeW2]

I would recommend avoiding events that bracket flights by handicap in the future. You don’t seem to grasp that those in non gross divisions WON their bracket and earned whatever the tournament committee deemed to be the prizes. This stuff is set up and determined prior to anyone’s entry. You signed up likely knowing that there were going to be prizes for all flights then are upset with that actually happening? You possibly also find yourself in that limbo area of handicap where you qualify for the gross bracket but aren’t good enough to win but you are too good to drop into a secondary flight. In your OP you asked are you being a sore loser and that is exactly how you are coming across. Your practice and hard work guarantees nothing. Clubs are businesses and strive to keep all customers happy including setting up competitions where 10 or 20 handicap players can win competitions against similar level players. All clubs have always done this and all clubs will continue to do so.

[dan360]

When a club has sandbaggers in it, or allows them in, there are counseling methods to discourage future tomfoolery....

[sui generis]

7 minutes ago, tatertot said:

You couldn't be more wrong ... I've never had a lesson, don't play Pro V1s, don't have a Stitch bag, and not a natural athlete. 

 

But you were right about handicap events. I don't play them. I'll play anybody straight up. Might lose, might win, but won't get sandbagged by somebody, or beat by a 36 capper who rolls in a 45 footer for par. 

 

Some guys work hard at golf ... some guys are spend more time on GolfWRX with wink emoticons. We know where you fall.

 

I have no interest in swapping bona fides with you or anyone. I merely suggest that the WHS is a valid tool which allows golfers of different genders, various ages and skill levels to "compete" with each other. Is that a bad thing?

[naval2006]

I guess golfers who enter and have the potential to win gross comps don’t even know what GolfWRX is. 

[tatertot]

5 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I have no interest in swapping bona fides with you or anyone. I merely suggest that the WHS is a valid tool which allows golfers of different genders, various ages and skill levels to "compete" with each other. Is that a bad thing?

I don't know about "bad" ... if a person comes from a competitive sport, it can be hard to get used to (or frustrating, like I said). 

[CSagan]

Bro you're a scratch golfer with a 50 gram driver shaft and shot 1 under lumber.

 

JK

 

It is what it is. Enjoy the game and try and better your post round mental game for the future. 🤠

[oikos1]

3 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

Exactly, I'm beating them and not getting paid so why not just be a 5-index, fall back to Flight 2 (a nonsense designation that shouldn't exist in a Gross event anyway) and take my $120 as I magically play well? 

 

Why flight these things? Would you have done that? And why? To make a 10-index feel good? 

 

Sorry, he gets privileged over those who practice more? That's ridiculous. This isn't a Net event. It should be winner(s) take all. 

 

I don't mind if the guys above me win more money...I just don't want guys BELOW me getting paid while I don't. That's not a good look. 

 

 

I get where you are coming from.  Would you feel better if the Top Flight had the highest payouts per flight?  So say there was $1000 available for payouts for all flights combined.  Something like Flight One total payout is $650, Flight Two total payout is $225 and Flight Three total payout is $125.

 

Rewards the skilled players but still keeps everyone interested.

[huskydawg]

If they do this, maybe they should flight the payouts so flights 2 and 3 get slightly less.  Want more prize money, get better.

[Shilgy]

20 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

I get where you are coming from.  Would you feel better if the Top Flight had the highest payouts per flight?  So say there was $1000 available for payouts for all flights combined.  Something like Flight One total payout is $650, Flight Two total payout is $225 and Flight Three total payout is $125.

 

Rewards the skilled players but still keeps everyone interested.

 

18 minutes ago, huskydawg said:

If they do this, maybe they should flight the payouts so flights 2 and 3 get slightly less.  Want more prize money, get better.

Lol…. try telling the guy playing 3rd flight that 75% of his entry goes to pay guys in other flights.  That’ll really boost participation.😏

[llewol007]

So is the gripe that you are a lower handicap golfer who played bad and wants to get paid because a higher handicap player played to their handicap and won money?

[2bGood]

On 5/15/2022 at 4:20 PM, MelloYello said:

 

Why flight these things? Would you have done that? And why? To make a 10-index feel good? 

 

 

You flight it so everyone in the club can play. If you are in 'd' flight playing off of 36 there really is no point in you trying to beat an 'A' flight player in a gross event. 

 

If you want to play in events where only the best golfer is rewarded there are plenty of scratch tournaments. But at members clubs, it seems reasonable to have a format so all members can have a chance to play for something. 

 

Personally I am in the championship flight most years at my club. Playing off of 3 or 4 versus guys that are +3 or +4 means I get smoked every year over 3 days, but I take certain pride of qualifying for the top flight the years that I do and prefer it over being at the top of the second flight. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by 2bGood