Why not just sandbag?

[MattC555]

18 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

I think you'll find every form of competition is subject to these kinds of things. 

 

Do you protect folks with physical handicaps? Sure, but to what extent? What about physical advantages? Do we need a Flighted form on the NFL or NBA? 

 

Fighting has weight classes because...how could it not? There is the Special Olympics....because, well, obviously. 

 

Yeah....there's just no easy answer a lot of the time. 

 

There is some form of flighting in most all adult sports.  I play ice hockey.  We have six different divisions based on skill level.  Get too good and they move you up a division.   

 

If you're not good enough to win your club championship, you need a flight just like the rest of the players. 

[MelloYello]

2 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

 

There is some form of flighting in most all adult sports.  I play ice hockey.  We have six different divisions based on skill level.  Get too good and they move you up a division.   

 

If you're not good enough to win your club championship, you need a flight just like the rest of the players. 

 

Totally fine with that. No problems. 

 

But do you think it's justified to pay out (the same) money to the winners of the lesser flights while those at the bottom of the higher flights just lose out?

 

To me, that sounds wrong. I just don't see the logic. If we're paying out money, we shouldn't be doing flights IMHO. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by MelloYello

[me05501]

16 hours ago, MelloYello said:

Recently, we wrapped up our Men's White-Tee Division Club Championship which is just for fun. It's a 2-round hit-and-giggle alternative to the 3-day Blue Tee CC that actually matters. Since I couldn't get off work Friday due to pulling double-duty at work, I couldn't do the actual Blue division CC which started Friday afternoon. So I did the White as a means to at least play some golf over the weekend. 

 

First things first, I played terrible on day-2 and I don't for a moment think I deserve to win money.

 

 

Maybe look in the mirror and try to determine what you're actually upset about. 

 

It sounds like you are upset about not being able to play the Blue Tees tournament and ending up in a "hit-and-giggle" instead, and also that you didn't play well when you could have. 

 

If you're really upset about flighted tournaments having flighted prizes? Well...get in line buddy.

 

 

[MattC555]

Just now, MelloYello said:

 

Totally fine with that. No problems. 

 

But do you think it's justified to pay out money to the winners of the lesser flights? 

 

To me, that sounds wrong. I just don't see the logic. 

 

All of our ice hockey divisions get the same prize.  Nobody seems to care.  We are there to compete.  The champion team picture and celebration after is what I want most.  I say that as someone who plays in the second highest division.  I'm a good hockey player, but I know and understand that I never had a chance of getting to the show.  Doesn't stop me from giving my all and enjoying competing in my "flight".

 

 

[MelloYello]

1 minute ago, me05501 said:

 

 

Maybe look in the mirror and try to determine what you're actually upset about. 

 

It sounds like you are upset about not being able to play the Blue Tees tournament and ending up in a "hit-and-giggle" instead, and also that you didn't play well when you could have. 

 

If you're really upset about flighted tournaments having flighted prizes? Well...get in line buddy.

 

 

 

Oh, I'm sick to my stomach that I was too busy at work. Of all the Fridays to be working my tail off at 5pm, this was not the most convenient. I absolutely wanted to compete in the Blue division. I would've had a lot more fun and played with a lot more guys like me for sure. 

 

I just hate how every tournament in my area is always based on handicap index in some way. The only guys who ever profit are sandbaggers. At some point, it becomes depressing. It's literally the opposite of "hit-and-giggle." It become hit-and-grit-your-teeth. 

 

Haha...I'm over it. Oh well. I'd have felt much better if I played well. Bad weekend is all. 

[MelloYello]

3 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

 

All of our ice hockey divisions get the same prize.  Nobody seems to care.  We are there to compete.  The champion team picture and celebration after is what I want most.  I say that as someone who plays in the second highest division.  I'm a good hockey player, but I know and understand that I never had a chance of getting to the show.  Doesn't stop me from giving my all and enjoying competing in my "flight".

 

 

 

Flighting seems like a sensible idea in a sport where 2 or more people face off physically. I don't want to skate against someone who's better than me or race Usain Bolt or fight someone twice my size. Those are potentially dangerous. 

 

In golf, I don't see the need for Flighting at all though. What's the point? Why not just have a single leaderboard?

 

I want to see how I stack up, where I rank and I want to know the best players won the money & prizes. If that means I get smoked by elite guys, so be it. There's pride / pleasure in that, too. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by MelloYello

[me05501]

6 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Oh, I'm sick to my stomach that I was too busy at work. Of all the Fridays to be working my tail off at 5pm, this was not the most convenient. I absolutely wanted to compete in the Blue division. I would've had a lot more fun and played with a lot more guys like me for sure. 

 

I just hate how every tournament in my area is always based on handicap index in some way. The only guys who ever profit are sandbaggers. At some point, it becomes depressing. It's literally the opposite of "hit-and-giggle." It become hit-and-grit-your-teeth. 

 

Haha...I'm over it. Oh well. I'd have felt much better if I played well. Bad weekend is all. 

 

Yup, I've totally been in similar situations, on both ends of it, which eventually helped me understand that my real battle is between the ears. 

 

I remember playing in the fifth flight of a member/guest and getting waxed by a father/son team where the dad had seemed to have a bagged his handicap to try and win the lower flight.

 

I've also been that legit fifth flight player who happened to have three birdies in a nine hole match (the only time I've ever done that). I learned what it was like to have the scent of being a sandbagger on me. 

 

Eventually you figure out that A) controlling yourself and managing your own game is the real goal, and B) you have to be able to live with yourself and your reputation. 

A $120 prize isn't worth losing respect for yourself, or for anyone else. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by me05501

[tatertot]

1 hour ago, No_Ugos said:

How do you know how much time practicing the other guys you deem unworthy do or don’t do? Do you follow them home? You ASSUME they don’t practice. Maybe they do and their handicap is the best they’ll ever get to. 
 

You come off as an entitled, crying baby and it’s frankly pathetic. Maybe if you spent less time practicing, you’d be happier and would have made it into flight 2 to win money. 
 

The point is, you don’t know what other people do or don’t do and to trash another players skill level is just that, trash. Golf is a gentleman’s game and a game of honor. Something you have shown that you are not nor do you have. 

"Everyone gets a trophy" has nothing to do with honor. I'm sorry ... there is nothing honorable about "winning" the 7th flight. It signifies you happened to have the 71st best score that day. Meaningless. Honor is competing. You don't have to "win" something to have honor. You don't get it.

[Hickory4ever]

28 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Flighting seems like a sensible idea in a sport where 2 or more people face off physically. I don't want to skate against someone who's better than me or race Usain Bolt or fight someone twice my size. Those are potentially dangerous. 

 

In golf, I don't see the need for Flighting at all though. What's the point? Why not just have a single leaderboard?

 

I want to see how I stack up, where I rank and I want to know the best players won the money & prizes. If that means I get smoked by elite guys, so be it. There's pride / pleasure in that, too. 

I really don’t think you get it that golf is a unique game that players of all skill levels can play together. The game at the club level is primarily social in nature, even in most “competitions”, and flighting allows for players of different abilities to have a friendly competition. The idea that just because you are in a higher flight that you are entitled to a larger prize than the flights beyond yours is in my opinion missing the point. Their entry fee to compete against their peers is as important to them as yours. That is why the events are always like this. 
 

I really believe that the OP should chill out. You are welcome to restrict yourself to gross events if it bothers you so much, but I suggest you are taking yourself far too seriously. Golf is a game that is unique in that you can play it for life and enjoy it. 

[Shilgy]

2 minutes ago, tatertot said:

"Everyone gets a trophy" has nothing to do with honor. I'm sorry ... there is nothing honorable about "winning" the 7th flight. It signifies you happened to have the 71st best score that day. Meaningless. Honor is competing. You don't have to "win" something to have honor. You don't get it.

How do our seem to know the winner of the 7th flight was 71st best score?  All that matters is he was best in his flight.

 

Back to the OP @MelloYello  I may have missed it but was it gross or net within each flight?
  If net you played about 10-12 strokes OVER your cap for the two days so by your logic should win nothing…so what’s the complaint?

  If net then your gross score means nothing so doesn’t mean you “beat” guys that shot a higher score but won money.

 

You are 36….apparently healthy by playing a lot of rounds…and apparently have a job where you can get out during the week.  Other members may be older, I am 65 and can relate,  and or not as physically able, lol I relate to that as well.   But you want to deny them the opportunity to compete with similar golfers because you believe it should all be gross score wins?  

 You weren’t going to win anything ith those scores any ways so let it go.

 

Ideal is narrow handicap flighted events.  So in each flight the players are within a few handicap strokes of each other.  Then pay one gross and one or two net in each flight.  But that wouldn’t have helped you in this case either.

 

Play better!
 

 

[Double Mocha Man]

2 hours ago, MelloYello said:

If being a worse golfer is going to earn me more money, I think we have a problem. 

You ain't on the PGA Tour.  It's not about the money... it's about the competition and camaraderie of tournaments.

[Is Golf Fun or Work]

Sandbagging isn't the answer....there always will be sandbaggers, it's just the way things are and also the reason (secondary to 6 hour rounds in club championships) I won't play in tournaments anymore.  I won't lower myself to cheat (sandbag) just to be competitive with other cheats.

[MelloYello]

33 minutes ago, tatertot said:

"Everyone gets a trophy" has nothing to do with honor. I'm sorry ... there is nothing honorable about "winning" the 7th flight. It signifies you happened to have the 71st best score that day. Meaningless. Honor is competing. You don't have to "win" something to have honor. You don't get it.

 

The guy is just trolling. He's going to get himself banned. Give it time, the Mods will boot him. 

[MelloYello]

18 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

You ain't on the PGA Tour.  It's not about the money... it's about the competition and camaraderie of tournaments.

 

Kind of, but also at the same time, no. It's just not that simple. 

 

I spend too much time and effort practicing (and forking over $$$) at my club to have this gimmicky nonsense go on. 

 

Will I quit my club? No, but it's bad business IMHO. 

[MelloYello]

4 minutes ago, Is Golf Fun or Work said:

Sandbagging isn't the answer....there always will be sandbaggers, it's just the way things are and also the reason (secondary to 6 hour rounds in club championships) I won't play in tournaments anymore.  I won't lower myself to cheat (sandbag) just to be competitive with other cheats.

 

You quitting means they win (more). 

 

And what exactly does that handicap do for you anyway? From the outside, it looks like your own selfish obsession WRT that handicap of yours might be your downfall. Where you claim honesty and virtue, others may rightly call it pride...the bad kind. No?  

[North Butte]

So in OP's ideal world, what exactly would the club championship event look like? 

 

1) It would exclude anyone who is a plus handicap (because OP knows they would smoke him).

2) It would all be in one flight, with no strokes given

3) And somehow or another 50 or more double-digit handicappers would be forced to pay entry fees just for the privilege of playing in an event they can't possibly come within a dozen shots of winning on their best day.

 

Do I have the wish list just about right? 

Edited May 16, 2022 by North Butte

[MelloYello]

34 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

How do our seem to know the winner of the 7th flight was 71st best score?  All that matters is he was best in his flight.

 

Back to the OP @MelloYello  I may have missed it but was it gross or net within each flight?
  If net you played about 10-12 strokes OVER your cap for the two days so by your logic should win nothing…so what’s the complaint?

  If net then your gross score means nothing so doesn’t mean you “beat” guys that shot a higher score but won money.

 

You are 36….apparently healthy by playing a lot of rounds…and apparently have a job where you can get out during the week.  Other members may be older, I am 65 and can relate,  and or not as physically able, lol I relate to that as well.   But you want to deny them the opportunity to compete with similar golfers because you believe it should all be gross score wins?  

 You weren’t going to win anything ith those scores any ways so let it go.

 

Ideal is narrow handicap flighted events.  So in each flight the players are within a few handicap strokes of each other.  Then pay one gross and one or two net in each flight.  But that wouldn’t have helped you in this case either.

 

Play better!
 

 

 

I don't mind losing and going home with nothing but I DO NOT want to see other players card higher scores and get rewarded. That's not fair and it's equivalent to cheating. If I get nothing, it should be the same for them. I was once where they were and had to climb my way up. Nobody paid me for it. 

 

I work hard to be in the top Flight. This was a Gross event. Flighting based on Handicap ruins it. I was  T8 overall. If that's outside the money, so be it. I don't care.

 

Just don't pay out hundreds of dollars to guys who I beat, alright?

 

That feels more like insider trading. 

 

.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by MelloYello

[MelloYello]

5 minutes ago, North Butte said:

So in OP's ideal world, what exactly would the club championship event look like? 

 

1) It would exclude anyone who is a plus handicap (because OP knows they would smoke him).

2) It would all be in one flight, with no strokes given

3) And somehow or another 50 or more double-digit handicappers would be forced to pay entry fees just for the privilege of playing in an event they can't possibly come within a dozen shots of winning on their best day.

 

Do I have the wish list just about right? 

 

What you call a "wish list" is basically just a regular tournament with no shenanigans. 

 

Everyone plays and the Top 3 or 5 get paid (big money). 1 Leaderboard. Do as best as you can. Feel good/bad based on where you stack up to the entire field. 

 

What's wrong with that? 

 

And FYI, at private clubs everyone signs up for virtually everything they can play. Your #3 is a strawman.

[Shilgy]

6 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

I don't mind losing and going home with nothing but I DO NOT want to see other players card higher scores and get rewarded. That's not fair and it's equivalent to cheating. If I get nothing, it should be the same for them. I was once where they were and had to climb my way up. Nobody paid me for it. 

 

I work hard to be in the top Flight. This was a Gross event. Flighting based on Handicap ruins it. I was  T8 overall. If that's outside the money, so be it. I don't care.

 

Just don't pay out hundreds of dollars to guys who I beat, alright?

 

 

So you are of the mind that says when you get older and cannot physically compete with the best players just quit?  Odd suggestion for a competitor such as yourself.  If you are a 0.6 you were likely easily the lowest in your flight.  Gross but you got smoked anyways because you played poorly. Deal with it.

 

This is one of the sillier threads I’ve read here….I’m out.

[MikeW2]

15 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Kind of, but also at the same time, no. It's just not that simple. 

 

I spend too much time and effort practicing (and forking over $$$) at my club to have this gimmicky nonsense go on. 

 

Will I quit my club? No, but it's bad business IMHO. 

Bad business for who?  There are way more 10-15-20 handicap members than those close to scratch.  Were you not aware that there were going to be prizes awarded based on flights?  You are way off base and quite honestly I think overly self absorbed on this issue.  You are a member at a CLUB, the purpose behind forming a club, any club, as a business is to capitalize on people's social nature/interests/likes and that is inclusive of all members whether they chose to spend their time practicing golf or not.  How you continue to dig in despite majority opinion that does not coincide with yours (even with a touch of sympathetic understanding to your frustration) shows that you just want what you want and to heck with all other members. Your lack of willingness to accept that lesser players won their bracket cast you in a poor light.

[MelloYello]

56 minutes ago, Hickory4ever said:

I really don’t think you get it that golf is a unique game that players of all skill levels can play together. The game at the club level is primarily social in nature, even in most “competitions”, and flighting allows for players of different abilities to have a friendly competition. The idea that just because you are in a higher flight that you are entitled to a larger prize than the flights beyond yours is in my opinion missing the point. Their entry fee to compete against their peers is as important to them as yours. That is why the events are always like this. 
 

I really believe that the OP should chill out. You are welcome to restrict yourself to gross events if it bothers you so much, but I suggest you are taking yourself far too seriously. Golf is a game that is unique in that you can play it for life and enjoy it. 

 

I think your general perspective is honorable so don't get me wrong but IMHO your words contradict themselves . 

 

You talk about fairness and treating people the same and then defend SBMM which is the opposite of fair and is based entirely on external manipulation in the event setup sorting players by skill.

 

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. 

 

But I get your perspective and I agree it's all for fun. No disagreement there. 

 

.

Edited May 16, 2022 by MelloYello

[North Butte]

It all reminds me of one of the older guys I worked with at my part-time job in college. He went to the pool hall down the street every evening after work. I asked him one afternoon if I could come along and play, maybe learn something from playing against him.

 

He said, "Why not just give me the 100 bucks now and go home instead of wasting two hours"? 

[MelloYello]

9 minutes ago, MikeW2 said:

Bad business for who?  There are way more 10-15-20 handicap members than those close to scratch.  Were you not aware that there were going to be prizes awarded based on flights?  You are way off base and quite honestly I think overly self absorbed on this issue.  You are a member at a CLUB, the purpose behind forming a club, any club, as a business is to capitalize on people's social nature/interests/likes and that is inclusive of all members whether they chose to spend their time practicing golf or not.  How you continue to dig in despite majority opinion that does not coincide with yours (even with a touch of sympathetic understanding to your frustration) shows that you just want what you want and to heck with all other members. Your lack of willingness to accept that lesser players won their bracket cast you in a poor light.

 

Not interested in being cast in a good light. That's definitely not my prerogative. 

 

Purely a discussion about how I'd set up these kinds of events. I'd rather be T8 overall and lose that way than do Flights. It feels wrong to me. 

 

Nothing to get insulting / personal about. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by MelloYello

[MelloYello]

2 minutes ago, North Butte said:

It all reminds me of one of the older guys I worked with at my part-time job in college. He went to the pool hall down the street every evening after work. I asked him one afternoon if I could come along and play, maybe learn something from playing against him.

 

He said, "Why not just give me the 100 bucks now and go home instead of wasting two hours"? 

 

Who cares about the money? Burn it. It's $100. If you paid him $100 and he locked you out, you'd be angry. 

 

Let's do a hypothetical. You are gifted the chance to play the PGA Tour for a year in your current condition. You go out and never shoot better than 80 on their courses and miss every cut. 

 

Does that ruin the experience? No way. It would be the coolest thing in the world. 

 

Experiences matter and I'd rather have a single leaderboard. I think it's cooler that way. 

[North Butte]

Just now, MelloYello said:

 

Who cares about the money? Burn it. It's $100. If you paid him $100 and he locked you out, you'd be angry. 

 

Let's do a hypothetical. You are gifted the chance to play the PGA Tour for a year in your current condition. You go out and never shoot better than 80 on their courses and miss every cut. 

 

Does that ruin the experience? No way. It would be the coolest thing in the world. 

 

Experiences matter and I'd rather have a single leaderboard. I think it's cooler that way. 

With respect, I'd suggest you may not find many double-digit handicap members of your club who equate playing with you to playing alongside a Tour player. I think you massively over-estimate the desire of people to come hang out with the Big Boys and pay money for the privilege. 

 

But no, I would not pay money for an opportunity to go shoot 110 on a 7,500 yard Tour course in front of a gallery. Even moreso given the glacial pace of play on Tour nowadays. 😬

 

A higher handicap member of your club can go out any day of the year and shoot 88 with their buddies. Why would they pay extra to do that on Tournament day? Same course, same results, just costs them an entry fee and means being out there an extra hour or so.

[MelloYello]

8 minutes ago, North Butte said:

With respect, I'd suggest you may not find many double-digit handicap members of your club who equate playing with you to playing alongside a Tour player. I think you massively over-estimate the desire of people to come hang out with the Big Boys and pay money for the privilege. 

 

But no, I would not pay money for an opportunity to go shoot 110 on a 7,500 yard Tour course in front of a gallery. Even moreso given the glacial pace of play on Tour nowadays. 😬

 

A higher handicap member of your club can go out any day of the year and shoot 88 with their buddies. Why would they pay extra to do that on Tournament day? Same course, same results, just costs them an entry fee and means being out there an extra hour or so.

 

Maybe you're right and maybe Flighting keeps engagement higher than it otherwise would be. That would be an explanation for why it exists in so many forms. But where I've come across it, I know people abhor it. It's generally seen as something that favors those who are slow / sloppy and punishes those who run a tight ship. 

 

And TBH, just based on the number of absolute crap golfers I see in hit-and-giggle tournaments all around I would be shocked if they're doing it for anything other than pure entertainment. It's more like gambling. If you think you're going to win, you're an idiot...or really, really good, LOL. 

 

As others have said, signing up for tournaments is more about the opportunity to play. For me personally, the fact it costs more money is merely something I see as more charity to the club. I think most of us understand that. 

 

But when it comes to who gets the free FJ Polo from the Pro Shop....well, now it's serious! And I think it's better to give that to the person who spends 5 days a week practicing...

 

...but I suppose that makes me a totally unlikable, unreasonable, self-centered jerk who is just jealous of my friends who I had a meal and drinks with after the round celebrating their performances. Yeah, that's it, LOL. 

[Double Mocha Man]

2 hours ago, me05501 said:

I just hate how every tournament in my area is always based on handicap index in some way.

If you want to try to qualify for the U.S. Open you'll need a 1.4 handicap or better.  And you won't need to worry about being flighted.

[North Butte]

2 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

But where I've come across it, I know people abhor it. It's generally seen as something that favors those who are slow / sloppy and punishes those who run a tight ship. 

I have never heard a single person other than yourself say anything remotely like that about flighted golf tournaments. Honestly, that comment reads like a bad parody of Ayn Rand. Not like any real world golfers I've ever met.

 

I guarantee you the plus handicappers at my club would have zero interest in putting a bunch of hacks like me in their flight of any tournament. They are perfectly happy having their own competition (the "real" club championship) and letting the 1st flight, 2nd flight, etc. do their own thing. 

[sethdavidsdad]

I hate it but sad part is there is really no easy answer. If you only pay top 20 players or teams then the high caps won't play. Only real answer is possibly preflight the event with the pro or someone that knows all players but that's hard to do also. Plus people get mad a pro then. I'm usually bottom of champ flight facing whatever college player that just finished up his college years but I prefer that over the 2nd and 3rd flight baggers. At least I know where I stand and a good round can get me in the money. 

We have a handicap game at our club. It has it's own handicap so only round count are when you put money in to play the game. It adjusts based on last 4 rounds. People still cheat on this game. Personally I think it's silly watching a doctor that makes over 300k per year throw off for 4 rounds so he can win $100-200 in a money game. This should be in the dictionary under the word Dumbassery. 

[Double Mocha Man]

1 hour ago, MelloYello said:

I spend too much time and effort practicing (and forking over $$$) at my club to have this gimmicky nonsense go on. 

Dude, how much money or merchandise do you win in a year?  Maybe $1000.  $2000 at the most.  Chump change compared to getting a whiney reputation and losing friends.