LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Shilgy]

28 minutes ago, pgapromex said:

Haven't read every page but this is what I see.  Any post offering positive info about LIV is immediately stormed by hordes of drooling zombies heaping scorn and ridicule upon the poster and declaring that whatever it is it won't work and will destroy golf forever.  Why fear what you are convinced won't work?

 

 

 

 

No fear here…and Rory can go to if he wants.

 

On the flip side….how are some sooo positive this LIV thing has legs?  Is it simply a belief the PIF will just continue and poor money down the drain?  Have they increased fan interest in any way? Television viewership?  Fans at the gate that are not comped or essentially free(as in under $10)?

 

Anything at all positive other than a few more players caving after being paid huge sums?  How can some cheer the Rahm signing when you know, based on his previous comments, that he really has no interest in being there?

[woahnelly]

19 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

I'm not for or against the PGAT or LIV, I agree with your post, the same people (PGAT fans) are just constantly rubbishing what anyone else posts.

I don't read any other forums about the PGAT where LIV supporters are hijacking the forum to bleat the same stuff on a daily basis. 

 

The same jokes do get tiresome. Then again, I'm probably in the minority that watch and enjoy both products. It's more golf on TV at the end of the day, which is a W for my lazy sundays. 

[wedgegame]

7 minutes ago, pgapromex said:

Haven't read every page but this is what I see.  Any post offering positive info about LIV is immediately stormed by hordes of drooling zombies heaping scorn and ridicule upon the poster and declaring that whatever it is it won't work and will destroy golf forever.  Why fear what you are convinced won't work?

 

 

 

 

 

I think it's the way the information is posted, and the inference that LIV is this amazing revolutionary product when viewership and general interest would indicate otherwise.  At least for me, the enthusiasm from some posters just does really seem genuine which can rub people the wrong way. For instance, even feedback from avid golf watchers like "I don't enjoy the shotgun start" or "the amount of shots are great but without context it's hard to watch" is met with "LIV is great and disrupting the golf world."  Also if something is posted as fact when it just isn't, calling it out isn't "heaping scorn".

 

I also don't think people are fearful of LIV, it's just that golf as a professional sport is already a niche market, and diluting that market between two different tours makes the product worse across the board. It would be like if wealthy individual bought half the houses on your street and "revolutionize" the neighborhood by turning them all into short term rentals.  You wouldn't be fearful of them, but that doesn't mean you have to like their bad idea that makes your neighborhood worse.

 

Given the choice, I think most people would prefer to watch the best in the world compete against each other on a regular and predictable basis in a format that is inline with the history of the sport.  If LIV could deliver this, a lot of people would watch despite the baggage that comes with the source of the funding.

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, DrunkCaddy said:

Here is a question.   Does every PGA player LIV sign increase LIV's valuation?   Fox example, we know that LIV signed Rahm for $200M.  How does that effect the overall valuation of LIV?   If LIV's valuation increases, and if LIV and the PGA do merge, does signing a player such as Rahm give LIV a bigger percentage of PGA Tour Enterprises?   I guess the question is what are the assets of the PGA?  Is it the tournaments?  the players?  or the PGA brand?    

Here's what we do know:

 

The PGAt has revenue of $2B and now has a valuation of about $14B (estimate), based on investors and potential earnings.

 

LIV golf was not able to generate even a $100M during the 2023 season. Also, LIV wasn't able to generate $3m in TV revenue. LIV currently has $2B invested going into its third year. According to my calculations, LIVs valuation is about $400M or whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

 

~The question is, will the purchase of Rahm at a $1/2B change these numbers?

Maybe they'll get a paying TV deal or maybe not who knows? Maybe they sell franchises? 

 

Maybe they plan on funding this indefinitely without profit who knows?...

[bekgolf]

42 minutes ago, pgapromex said:

Haven't read every page but this is what I see.  Any post offering positive info about LIV is immediately stormed by hordes of drooling zombies heaping scorn and ridicule upon the poster and declaring that whatever it is it won't work and will destroy golf forever.  Why fear what you are convinced won't work?

 

 

 

 

 

I'll share.

 

My fear is for the irreparable harm to golf.  Things have already happened that can't be undone.  Liv is a product that isn't going to work yet the Saudis keep throwing money at it luring more golfers away and disrupting something that I get a great amount of entertainment from. 

 

Let's say they get all of pro golf on their payroll, the only thing that would do is destroy pro golf.  It wouldn't make their product any better or interesting but it would put PGA golf in a place it can't recover from.  I am against that happening.

 

If Liv was going to work, if it was revolutionary and something that fans had been looking for it would be a success with golfers lining up to be a part of it.  The reality is that it takes hundreds of millions of monies to get a good pro golfer to play for them.  They don't realize that having a famous name doesn't make them interesting and it doesn't compel golf fans to watch their product.  It's almost insulting for them to think that golf fans are that superficial. 

 

They have the capital to do far more damage and nothing can be done about it.  That is something to fear.

[italianstallion]

14 minutes ago, wedgegame said:

 

I think it's the way the information is posted, and the inference that LIV is this amazing revolutionary product when viewership and general interest would indicate otherwise.  At least for me, the enthusiasm from some posters just does really seem genuine which can rub people the wrong way. For instance, even feedback from avid golf watchers like "I don't enjoy the shotgun start" or "the amount of shots are great but without context it's hard to watch" is met with "LIV is great and disrupting the golf world."  Also if something is posted as fact when it just isn't, calling it out isn't "heaping scorn".

 

I also don't think people are fearful of LIV, it's just that golf as a professional sport is already a niche market, and diluting that market between two different tours makes the product worse across the board. It would be like if wealthy individual bought half the houses on your street and "revolutionize" the neighborhood by turning them all into short term rentals.  You wouldn't be fearful of them, but that doesn't mean you have to like their bad idea that makes your neighborhood worse.

 

Given the choice, I think most people would prefer to watch the best in the world compete against each other on a regular and predictable basis in a format that is inline with the history of the sport.  If LIV could deliver this, a lot of people would watch despite the baggage that comes with the source of the funding.

And along those lines, if LIV is such a revolutionary and better product, providing so much more flexibility and time off for players along with higher tournament purses than PGA TOUR events, why is it that nobody is going over there to play for free? 

[Titleist99]

25 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

No fear here…and Rory can go to if he wants.

 

On the flip side….how are some sooo positive this LIV thing has legs?  Is it simply a belief the PIF will just continue and poor money down the drain?  Have they increased fan interest in any way? Television viewership?  Fans at the gate that are not comped or essentially free(as in under $10)?

 

Anything at all positive other than a few more players caving after being paid huge sums?  How can some cheer the Rahm signing when you know, based on his previous comments, that he really has no interest in being there?

I am fairly consistent. 😆 I'll tell you why LIV will continue......because the PGAT wants it to. IMO There's no way on this green earth that the tour let that much revenue get away from its members. I would be really surprised if an announcement is not made before the Masters welcoming the PIF to PGAT Enterprise.😄

[Titleist99]

23 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

I'll share.

 

My fear is for the irreparable harm to golf.  Things have already happened that can't be undone.  Liv is a product that isn't going to work yet the Saudis keep throwing money at it luring more golfers away and disrupting something that I get a great amount of entertainment from. 

 

Let's say they get all of pro golf on their payroll, the only thing that would do is destroy pro golf.  It wouldn't make their product any better or interesting but it would put PGA golf in a place it can't recover from.  I am against that happening.

 

If Liv was going to work, if it was revolutionary and something that fans had been looking for it would be a success with golfers lining up to be a part of it.  The reality is that it takes hundreds of millions of monies to get a good pro golfer to play for them.  They don't realize that having a famous name doesn't make them interesting and it doesn't compel golf fans to watch their product.  It's almost insulting for them to think that golf fans are that superficial. 

 

They have the capital to do far more damage and nothing can be done about it.  That is something to fear.

I am so weird, the poaching of players by LIV has not affected my enjoyment of the PGAT not one bit. I'm enjoying the stories and the competition.

 

"Next man up"

[bekgolf]

Just now, Titleist99 said:

I am so weird, the poaching of players by LIV has not affected my enjoyment of the PGAT not one bit. I'm enjoying the stories and the competition.

 

"Next man up"

 

Watching it right now.  Love it.

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Exactly…. @bscinstnct how would anyone know they have this great showdown you mentioned?  No one** is watching….no one cares**….no one** is looking up who’s in contention…. so how would they get this big audience?

 

** yes “no one” is a stretch.  Should it be changed to “very few”?

 

How?

 

If it’s Rambo Khaled vs Brooksie on Sunday you gonna see like 9 million ads a day yo!

 

Oh man and the “stare down” promo pics 🤣

 

And cheesy pre round interviews be like 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[woahnelly]

5 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

I am so weird, the poaching of players by LIV has not affected my enjoyment of the PGAT not one bit. I'm enjoying the stories and the competition.

 

"Next man up"

 

People get caught up in the names too much.  Just enjoy the qualify of golf that's being played. These guys go through swoons throughout their career, only a handful have proven to be slump proof. 

[pgapromex]

Many here appear to think the Saudis are Lamborghini driving fools throwing balls of cash into the desert.  Not

 

Many here also assume that they invest in PGA golf tour to turn a profit by running a golf tour.  Not

 

In 30-40 years their lake of oil dries up so they are investing in and planning future revenue streams.  One of these is tourism.  

 

They see UAE success in Dubai, which in 2018 was highest tourist spending destination in world, 30 B.and surpassing oil revenue.

 

The are building $500 B city in the north, largest construction project on earth.

 

Golf, F1 etc are just means to enhance their brand, very expensive billboards.  

 

Relax, let merger happen,  tour will get better, bigger, more international, and best will play against best again.

 

 

 

[bekgolf]

2 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

How?

 

If it’s Rambo Khaled vs Brooksie on Sunday you gonna see like 9 million ads a day yo!

 

Oh man and the “stare down” promo pics 🤣

 

And cheesy pre round interviews be like 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe if the commercials are live golf being force fed to viewers.  Otherwise I don't see it.

[stinger_gc]

16 hours ago, woahnelly said:

 

I can't imagine Yassir being undermined by Peter Malnati.  PIF says kick rocks and signs Rory to LIV 😂

What would Rory’s # be to jump? I’d assume he’s worth at least $100m-$150m more then Rahm given what he’s accomplished and his ranking

[wedgegame]

25 minutes ago, pgapromex said:

Many here appear to think the Saudis are Lamborghini driving fools throwing balls of cash into the desert.  Not

 

Many here also assume that they invest in PGA golf tour to turn a profit by running a golf tour.  Not

 

In 30-40 years their lake of oil dries up so they are investing in and planning future revenue streams.  One of these is tourism.  

 

They see UAE success in Dubai, which in 2018 was highest tourist spending destination in world, 30 B.and surpassing oil revenue.

 

The are building $500 B city in the north, largest construction project on earth.

 

Golf, F1 etc are just means to enhance their brand, very expensive billboards.  

 

Relax, let merger happen,  tour will get better, bigger, more international, and best will play against best again.

 

 

 

Or... maybe they could take an introspective look at their society and figure out what parts don't attract tourist from around the world, and particularly more affluent western countries, and take steps to make changes that will improve how their country is viewed on the worldwide stage.  

 

But naw!  Let's just throw billions of dollars at professional sports because that will make people like us.  And you can't see why people would rather have someone who is invested in the sport of golf calling the shots, rather than a foreign government who's primary objective is improving their image and the sport of golf is secondary?

Edited February 1 by wedgegame

[woahnelly]

1 minute ago, stinger_gc said:

What would Rory’s # be to jump? I’d assume he’s worth at least $100m-$150m more then Rahm given what he’s accomplished and his ranking

 

They will annex a small pocket of Saudi Arabia and rename it "Roryville" fully furnished with yachts, mega mansions, servants, and a small pct of the PIF stock.

[kiwigolf72]

1 hour ago, woahnelly said:

 

The same jokes do get tiresome. Then again, I'm probably in the minority that watch and enjoy both products. It's more golf on TV at the end of the day, which is a W for my lazy sundays. 

I watch both as well.

[subrew]

1 hour ago, italianstallion said:

And along those lines, if LIV is such a revolutionary and better product, providing so much more flexibility and time off for players along with higher tournament purses than PGA TOUR events, why is it that nobody is going over there to play for free? 

 

Not everyone had a big $ contract.  In fact, Taylor Gooch had no contract.  He was signed up to play the first LIV event in London, and was informed he would be banned by the PGAT and DP Tour as soon as he teed off.  I don't think he ever actually got a contract, but played well enough to earn some strong money that first year.  He may have signed some sort of contract after that point.

 

I don't think half of the original players that first year had contracts.  

Edited February 1 by subrew

[pgapromex]

13 minutes ago, wedgegame said:

Or... maybe they could take an introspective look at their society and figure out what parts don't attract tourist from around the world, and particularly more affluent western countries, and take steps to make changes that will improve how their country is viewed on the worldwide stage.  

 

But naw!  Let's just throw billions of dollars at professional sports because that will make people like us.  And you can't see why people would rather have someone who is invested in the sport of golf calling the shots, rather than a foreign government who's primary objective is improving their image and the sport of golf is secondary?

From the framework agreement "The  PGA Tour will at all times maintain a controlling voting interest, not withstanding any incremental investment by PIF or exercise of its rights of first refusal," 

 

It is a myth that PIF seeks to control Tour, spread by misguided trolls.  

 

As for rest of your post, it's a political minefield no thanks

[jimecherry]

24 minutes ago, stinger_gc said:

What would Rory’s # be to jump? I’d assume he’s worth at least $100m-$150m more then Rahm given what he’s accomplished and his ranking

rory would want shares or ownership equivalent to his position at tmrw sports.

[Shilgy]

41 minutes ago, pgapromex said:

Many here appear to think the Saudis are Lamborghini driving fools throwing balls of cash into the desert.  Not

 

Many here also assume that they invest in PGA golf tour to turn a profit by running a golf tour.  Not

 

In 30-40 years their lake of oil dries up so they are investing in and planning future revenue streams.  One of these is tourism.  

 

They see UAE success in Dubai, which in 2018 was highest tourist spending destination in world, 30 B.and surpassing oil revenue.

 

The are building $500 B city in the north, largest construction project on earth.

 

Golf, F1 etc are just means to enhance their brand, very expensive billboards.  

 

Relax, let merger happen,  tour will get better, bigger, more international, and best will play against best again.

 

 

 

Where do you get the UAE number? There are not in the top 10 of tourist visitors.

 

Clearly they don’t NEED a profit from LIV.  I am guessing they would be happier if anyone paid any attention to its actual product.

[pgapromex]

14 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Where do you get the UAE number? There are not in the top 10 of tourist visitors.

 

Clearly they don’t NEED a profit from LIV.  I am guessing they would be happier if anyone paid any attention to its actual product.

Mastercard Global Destination Cities Index 2019 found that tourists spend more in Dubai than in any other country. In 2018, the country topped the list for the fourth year in a row with a total spend of $30.82 billion, a 3.8% increase over 2017 ($29.70 billion). The average spend per day was $553.^[14]

 

^{Yes Saudis will want revenue from golf and have plans to achieve it.  Think cricket in India} 

Edited February 1 by pgapromex

[Shilgy]

8 minutes ago, pgapromex said:

Mastercard Global Destination Cities Index 2019 found that tourists spend more in Dubai than in any other country. In 2018, the country topped the list for the fourth year in a row with a total spend of $30.82 billion, a 3.8% increase over 2017 ($29.70 billion). The average spend per day was $553.^[14]

 

^{Yes Saudis will want revenue from golf and have plans to achieve it.  Think cricket in India} 

Oh, you just meant it’s high priced with the “average spend” per tourist per day.  France just about doubles that tourist income for example.

 

https://www.campusfrance.org/en/actu/tourisme-en-france-un-resultat-exceptionnel-en-2022

 

ps..the tourism industry in the US is over $2trillion.

Edited February 1 by Shilgy

[pgapromex]

11 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Oh, you just meant it’s high priced with the “average spend” per tourist per day.  France just about doubles that tourist income for example.

 

https://www.campusfrance.org/en/actu/tourisme-en-france-un-resultat-exceptionnel-en-2022

 

ps..the tourism industry in the US is over $2trillion.

Yes, high dollar tourists, I think Dubai is 4th highest in number of visitors among cities..  Now take a look at where those visitors come from and you habe a glimpse of where Saudis will focus marketing, grow game etc.

Sahith has bright future

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Dubai

Edited February 1 by pgapromex

[bscinstnct]

16 minutes ago, pgapromex said:

Mastercard Global Destination Cities Index 2019 found that tourists spend more in Dubai than in any other country. In 2018, the country topped the list for the fourth year in a row with a total spend of $30.82 billion, a 3.8% increase over 2017 ($29.70 billion). The average spend per day was $553.^[14]

 

^{Yes Saudis will want revenue from golf and have plans to achieve it.  Think cricket in India} 

 

That’s not even 10% of gdp

 

A nation that depends on tourism for the majority of its gdp is often a third world nation

 

UAE and SA won’t have a drop in the bucket if they rely on low margin business like tourism to replace oil

 

Apple alone made $170 billion in profit last year for reference ; )

[Shilgy]

5 minutes ago, pgapromex said:

Yes, high dollar tourists, I think Dubai is 4th highest in number of visitors among cities..  Now take a look at where those visitors come from and you habe a glimpse of where Saudis will focus marketing, grow game etc.

Sahith has bright future

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Dubai

Close…6th in 2023

 

https://economymiddleeast.com/news/most-visited-cities-in-the-world/

[pgapromex]

4 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

That’s not even 10% of gdp

 

A nation that depends on tourism for the majority of its gdp is often a third world nation

 

UAE and SA won’t have a drop in the bucket if they rely on low margin business like tourism to replace oil

 

Apple alone made $170 billion in profit last year for reference ; )

Didn't say tourism is their only avenue, pay attention

[bscinstnct]

Just now, pgapromex said:

Didn't say tourism is their only avenue, pay attention

 

I won’t wade into it but let’s just say this movie has played out before in history; )

[fixyurdivot]

So if Rory goes to LIV, how much does he get?  Maybe this is becoming a contest to see who can garnish the biggest contract.  I say he does not eclipse Rahm... whay say you?

[stinger_gc]

3 hours ago, jimecherry said:

rory would want shares or ownership equivalent to his position at tmrw sports.

LIV doesn’t even have a proper business model so I don’t even know what the valuation would be. All they do is throw money at players and they’ve got no way of turning a profit.

Edited February 2 by stinger_gc