Can I Practice After Picking Up?

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Nixhex524 said:

So are you also saying you've never picked up a questionable putt, or taken a questionable drop?  I think most do the best they can but it is ALWAYS within the rules?

 

I am an exceptional case as I ALWAYS play by the Rules when I play

1) in a competition

2) a handicap round

 

Around here casual rounds are just what the phrase says, casual. On casual rounds I may shoot a therapy ball if I feel like it but around here casual rounds are not posted. As they are CASUAL rounds.

[TwistedSister]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am an exceptional case as I ALWAYS play by the Rules when I play

1) in a competition

2) a handicap round

 

Around here casual rounds are just what the phrase says, casual. On casual rounds I may shoot a therapy ball if I feel like it but around here casual rounds are not posted. As they are CASUAL rounds.

A course I played would give each member a scorecard with the pros initials on it. If the card was not turned in the committee would post a score 5 less than one's index

[Colin L]

7 hours ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

....... I have a little issue with those sitting behind a computer with the rule book ready at the click of a mouse acting like their rounds are flawlessly played by the book.  Telling others they "aren't playing golf" because it isn't to the exact spec of the rules is more of an attempt to shame IMO, but that's just me.  Knowledge is always welcome.... being an uptight know-it-all, not so much.

Characterising people you don't know like this is totally irrelevant and  a bit offensive to boot.  

[GingerBubba]

When I was younger, my friends and I would dash home from school, quickly get changed out of our uniforms and head to the local park to play football (soccer).

 

Two guys would be nominated as the captains and they'd take it in turns to pick players for their team. Once two teams had been picked, jumpers would be thrown on the floor for goalposts and off we'd go, playing football for hours until it got dark and we had to go home for our dinner.

 

Except thanks to this thread, I now know we weren't in fact playing football.  Because football involves pitches of a certain size, goalposts of a certain height and width, a ball of a specified size, a fixed number of players and substitutes per team, players assigned to a particular team and registered with the local Football Association, a referee and linesman to officiate etc etc.

 

So it turns out I wasn't playing football all those years. I wonder what I was doing?

[DaveLeeNC]

10 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Sounds like the people having drafted the text should have taken the test first...

 

One thing for sure - they would not have done well on the writing/composition part of the exam. dave

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, GingerBubba said:

When I was younger, my friends and I would dash home from school, quickly get changed out of our uniforms and head to the local park to play football (soccer).

 

Two guys would be nominated as the captains and they'd take it in turns to pick players for their team. Once two teams had been picked, jumpers would be thrown on the floor for goalposts and off we'd go, playing football for hours until it got dark and we had to go home for our dinner.

 

Except thanks to this thread, I now know we weren't in fact playing football.  Because football involves pitches of a certain size, goalposts of a certain height and width, a ball of a specified size, a fixed number of players and substitutes per team, players assigned to a particular team and registered with the local Football Association, a referee and linesman to officiate etc etc.

 

So it turns out I wasn't playing football all those years. I wonder what I was doing?

 

I wonder what you're doing now.

 

Why is it so hard for guys like you, wham-o, nix, and others, to understand this is the RULES FORUM ?

 

You want to discuss your childhood, find a board where you're welcome to discuss child psychology.

 

You want to discuss playing various forms of a game that resembles golf and how you kick it out from behind a tree after asking "Mother, may I ?", and there are plenty of forums right here on WRX where you can do just that.

 

You don't want, or care to, actually DISCUSS the Rules of Golf ? Fine.

 

Perhaps then you might just consider staying OUT of a Rules of Golf Forum and let those of us who DO want to learn about the Rules, learn ?

 

TIA

 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by nsxguy

[antip]

4 hours ago, GingerBubba said:

When I was younger, my friends and I would dash home from school, quickly get changed out of our uniforms and head to the local park to play football (soccer).

 

Two guys would be nominated as the captains and they'd take it in turns to pick players for their team. Once two teams had been picked, jumpers would be thrown on the floor for goalposts and off we'd go, playing football for hours until it got dark and we had to go home for our dinner.

 

Except thanks to this thread, I now know we weren't in fact playing football.  Because football involves pitches of a certain size, goalposts of a certain height and width, a ball of a specified size, a fixed number of players and substitutes per team, players assigned to a particular team and registered with the local Football Association, a referee and linesman to officiate etc etc.

 

So it turns out I wasn't playing football all those years. I wonder what I was doing?

This is precisely the same in my part of the world (Oz) on the golf course. We are either playing in competitions fully subject to the Rules of Golf and handicapped on that (vast majority of golf played) or we are just heading out and playing socially when multiple "therapy" balls may be played from the same spot (I like that term Mr B!), 6 attempts made at that 3 foot putt ("how is it possible to miss 5 times in a row?") or a throw down into that nasty bunker to try and get over the lip AND stop it on the green. On the short fours, I also like hitting the 100 yard wedge from the tee and then trying to hit the small green from 200+ out. And as a kid we would invent our own course - 3rd tee to 7th green but clockwise around pond on the 5th - 900 yards, par 8. Of course, some of these indulgences require a very quiet late-afternoon course.

 

A challenge on this site is the massive cultural divide between the US where organised competitions are a much smaller element of the game - so handicapping systems there rely on the requirement for folk to submit their cards - and most of the rest of the world where social, non-competition golf more closely resembles your local park soccer. 

 

Contributors are often talking different languages, we shouldn't be surprised that they occasionally don't make much sense of what another contributor is saying. 

[Nixhex524]

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am an exceptional case as I ALWAYS play by the Rules when I play

1) in a competition

2) a handicap round

 

Around here casual rounds are just what the phrase says, casual. On casual rounds I may shoot a therapy ball if I feel like it but around here casual rounds are not posted. As they are CASUAL rounds.

 

So can you clarify what the line is between a casual round and a handicap round?  I'm a little confused.  We normally post anytime we play... the good, the bad, all of it unless it's a scramble or something like that.  I dont hit "therapy balls", I play my ball out and that's it but my buddies will occasionally hit an extra here or there if they aren't happy with the original.  They dont count it, they just "try again".  IDC as long as they keep moving and they count the original shot.  Are your stated HCP rounds treated the same as competition rounds where it's everything by the book?

 

[QEight]

6 hours ago, TwistedSister said:

A course I played would give each member a scorecard with the pros initials on it. If the card was not turned in the committee would post a score 5 less than one's index

 

Sounds somewhat odd and not sure what they have based their decission on.

[GingerBubba]

2 hours ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

So can you clarify what the line is between a casual round and a handicap round?  I'm a little confused.  We normally post anytime we play... the good, the bad, all of it unless it's a scramble or something like that.  I dont hit "therapy balls", I play my ball out and that's it but my buddies will occasionally hit an extra here or there if they aren't happy with the original.  They dont count it, they just "try again".  IDC as long as they keep moving and they count the original shot.  Are your stated HCP rounds treated the same as competition rounds where it's everything by the book?

 

I think Antip above explains the confusion. In England, you're encouraged to put in handicap rounds regularly, so that your handicap is constantly evolving and is representative of your current level of play, but you're certainly not obliged to put in every card - indeed if you intend to put in a card, you have to register your intention to do so BEFORE you start play, plus it has to be attested by someone you play with who also must also have an active handicap (and obviously it has to be played to the rules of golf).

 

The approximate picture at my club is that regular/keen golfers will play a comp every week or two (after which the card obviously gets submitted), maybe another round in that period in which they declare their intention to submit a scorecard and do so, along with a handful of casual rounds where cards aren't submitted, rules are not strictly adhered to and the approach is more relaxed.

 

I'd say that even in a casual round, rules that change outcomes significantly would be adhered to; so in the situation contained in the original post, you would concede the hole to your playing partner, but there'd be nothing wrong with dropping a ball thereafter illegally and finishing the hole for fun.

 

So perhaps therein lies the confusion. In England there is a significant different between a casual round and a round in which you're 'putting in a card' whereas as US rules require cards every round, hence full rules?

[Colin L]

3 hours ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

So can you clarify what the line is between a casual round and a handicap round?  I'm a little confused.  We normally post anytime we play... the good, the bad, all of it unless it's a scramble or something like that.  I dont hit "therapy balls", I play my ball out and that's it but my buddies will occasionally hit an extra here or there if they aren't happy with the original.  They dont count it, they just "try again".  IDC as long as they keep moving and they count the original shot.  Are your stated HCP rounds treated the same as competition rounds where it's everything by the book?

 

I'm pretty sure that's what Mr Bean is saying and is what any of us from a CONGU country (England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales is saying).  A "handicap round" is a specific matter being either a competition or when you decide you want to return a "General Play" score in which case it has to be preregistered as such,  played by he Rules and certified by a marker..   In other social games there is certainly a license to do what you wish although in my inevitably limited knowledge people do not take great liberties - if any - with the rules in their social matches.  Golf is defined by its rules and we play golf.  Occasionally going out on my own for a hack around is a different matter.  For a start I usually play two balls.  It's not a game of golf; rather it's practising the game of golf.

 

I've no doubt the conflicting views in threads like this are a result of the huge difference between the situation I've just described and the situation in the USA as we perceive it where it seems that a score should be returned from virtually every round, where every such round should therefore be played by the rules but where there seems to be a common attitude that everyone is free to pick and choose whether to apply, disregard or distort the rules of the game.   I have to recognise that this view may be wrong and that most American golfers do abide by the rules and that there isn't the threat to the integrity of handicaps that might be perceived from what we read.  A wrong impression from a vocal minority in forums such as this?

 

[TwistedSister]

8 hours ago, QEight said:

 

Sounds somewhat odd and not sure what they have based their decission on.

They did it to prevent sandbaggers.

[bcjim]

5 hours ago, Colin L said:

I'm pretty sure that's what Mr Bean is saying and is what any of us from a CONGU country (England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales is saying).  A "handicap round" is a specific matter being either a competition or when you decide you want to return a "General Play" score in which case it has to be preregistered as such,  played by he Rules and certified by a marker..   In other social games there is certainly a license to do what you wish although in my inevitably limited knowledge people do not take great liberties - if any - with the rules in their social matches.  Golf is defined by its rules and we play golf.  Occasionally going out on my own for a hack around is a different matter.  For a start I usually play two balls.  It's not a game of golf; rather it's practising the game of golf.

 

I've no doubt the conflicting views in threads like this are a result of the huge difference between the situation I've just described and the situation in the USA as we perceive it where it seems that a score should be returned from virtually every round, where every such round should therefore be played by the rules but where there seems to be a common attitude that everyone is free to pick and choose whether to apply, disregard or distort the rules of the game.   I have to recognise that this view may be wrong and that most American golfers do abide by the rules and that there isn't the threat to the integrity of handicaps that might be perceived from what we read.  A wrong impression from a vocal minority in forums such as this?

 

I think only around 10-15% of US golfers maintain a handicap so most rounds are "casual" or unrecorded.

 

Among those of us that do maintain a handicap I suspect that rounds that get turned in are generally played by the rules. I'm not sure honestly what percent of rounds played by golfers with handicaps are turned in. Between half and three-quarters would be my wild guess. I know, for myself, I post most rounds but not all.  I decide in advance if I am not going to post it..I find I need the pressure of posting it to keep focused so practice rounds are usually pointless for me. Its usually if we're playing skins or some other game. I sometimes just can't be bothered with keeping a stroke tally.

[davep043]

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

I have to recognise that this view may be wrong and that most American golfers do abide by the rules and that there isn't the threat to the integrity of handicaps that might be perceived from what we read.  A wrong impression from a vocal minority in forums such as this?

As a US player, and one involved with Rules and Handicaps, I see a wide variation in attitudes towards handicapping and playing by the rules.  There seem to be lots of players who don't really care about handicaps, or who keep one for their personal record-keeping, players who almost never play in organized competitions.  I don't mean to sound elitist, but these seem to be primarily players who are on daily-fee courses most of the time, where those organized competitions are relatively rare, and where there really isn't a proper Handicap Committee.  The other extreme, and I'm probably close to this end, tends to play nearly every round in accordance with the Rules, and to post in pretty strict accordance with the Handicap requirements here.  I have a feeling that the two extremes also have most of the highly vocal contributors here.  

[Colin L]

Thanks for that insight, Dave.

[nsxguy]

10 hours ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

So can you clarify what the line is between a casual round and a handicap round?  I'm a little confused.  We normally post anytime we play... the good, the bad, all of it unless it's a scramble or something like that.  I dont hit "therapy balls", I play my ball out and that's it but my buddies will occasionally hit an extra here or there if they aren't happy with the original.  They dont count it, they just "try again".  IDC as long as they keep moving and they count the original shot.  Are your stated HCP rounds treated the same as competition rounds where it's everything by the book?

 

 

Mr Bean is in Finland. I believe you're in the U.S., no ? Different countries have different rules about what rounds can be posted for handicap purposes.

 

e.g. In CONGU-land (G.B.) I believe they still have the same rule for posting - an organized comp or a "casual" round declared to the Club before he plays.

 

Your fellow players, I assume, do NOT keep handicaps, yes ? Otherwise they'd not be allowed to hit those "therapy" balls. You may not care but their handicap isn't accurate if they're hitting practice shots during the round.

 

Here in the States, so long as you play by the Rules and have at least 1 other person with you for the 18 holes, it is a "handicap" round and it should be posted.

 

If you play by yourself you cannot post the round.

 

 

[nsxguy]

49 minutes ago, davep043 said:

As a US player, and one involved with Rules and Handicaps, I see a wide variation in attitudes towards handicapping and playing by the rules.  There seem to be lots of players who don't really care about handicaps, or who keep one for their personal record-keeping, players who almost never play in organized competitions.  I don't mean to sound elitist, but these seem to be primarily players who are on daily-fee courses most of the time, where those organized competitions are relatively rare, and where there really isn't a proper Handicap Committee.  The other extreme, and I'm probably close to this end, tends to play nearly every round in accordance with the Rules, and to post in pretty strict accordance with the Handicap requirements here.  I have a feeling that the two extremes also have most of the highly vocal contributors here.  

 

Your experience likely ranges far wider than mine but I would agree with this 100%.

[Nixhex524]

30 minutes ago, davep043 said:

As a US player, and one involved with Rules and Handicaps, I see a wide variation in attitudes towards handicapping and playing by the rules.  There seem to be lots of players who don't really care about handicaps, or who keep one for their personal record-keeping, players who almost never play in organized competitions.  I don't mean to sound elitist, but these seem to be primarily players who are on daily-fee courses most of the time, where those organized competitions are relatively rare, and where there really isn't a proper Handicap Committee.  The other extreme, and I'm probably close to this end, tends to play nearly every round in accordance with the Rules, and to post in pretty strict accordance with the Handicap requirements here.  I have a feeling that the two extremes also have most of the highly vocal contributors here.  

 

I would agree that playing in competition rounds sharpens your knowledge of the rules, playing weekly rounds at the only course you can get a tee time at is not the same.  I am not financially well off enough to join a private club out here in SoCal, and if that's the life you live then that is great for you.  You may get more opportunities to play in structured competition rounds this way, and yes, it isn't what the majority of US golfers experience so it becomes more about just having fun out there.  That's fine, I would prefer to play by the rules AND have fun.   I have a buddy in my foursome who takes some questionable putts as he is focused on lowering that HCP, I do not care as it only helps me when we play matches out there but it isn't helping him.   He still has fun and chooses to play this way, fine by me, I just play my game.... as should the OP IMO if he's already conceded his NDB.  

 

I do believe in posting every round, I do not understand what goes on across the pond admittedly where it sounds like you get to decide before a round how you want it to count.  Would seem very easy to sandbag your way to getting a stroke on nearly every hole, but again, we can all choose how we want to play the game.  

 

[Nixhex524]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Mr Bean is in Finland. I believe you're in the U.S., no ? Different countries have different rules about what rounds can be posted for handicap purposes.

 

e.g. In CONGU-land (G.B.) I believe they still have the same rule for posting - an organized comp or a "casual" round declared to the Club before he plays.

 

Your fellow players, I assume, do NOT keep handicaps, yes ? Otherwise they'd not be allowed to hit those "therapy" balls. You may not care but their handicap isn't accurate if they're hitting practice shots during the round.

 

Here in the States, so long as you play by the Rules and have at least 1 other person with you for the 18 holes, it is a "handicap" round and it should be posted.

 

If you play by yourself you cannot post the round.

 

 

 

I am in SoCal.  I understand what you are saying and what it technically means, but are you really the guy who is going to call a playing partner out for hitting a practice shot after they are in for NDB?  Do you make sure to let them know that they cant post that round now?

[davep043]

1 minute ago, Nixhex524 said:

I do believe in posting every round, I do not understand what goes on across the pond admittedly where it sounds like you get to decide before a round how you want it to count.  Would seem very easy to sandbag your way to getting a stroke on nearly every hole,

I have a different view of their system, as far as I understand it.  In the US, we expect every player to post every round, even those where he's out with 3 buddies drinking beer all day long.  We also have a system in which no one individual is required to confirm the score you post, our posted scores are subject to "peer review".  Unless there's an effective Handicap Committee, that really means almost no review.  The combination means that a number of minimally competitive or even non-competitive scores can be honestly posted, and where scores can be dishonestly inflated.

I've read some of the Golf England posting information.  There, if you intend to post your score from a "casual" round, you must pre-register through your phone app, or in the pro shop.  At some point in the process, you must identify another player who will attest your score.  Once you post your score, it is sent to that other player to confirm.  If you do not post a score after pre-registering, there are consequences (penalty scores, perhaps?).  If you try to post a score without pre-registering, it won't be accepted. To me, this process removes those "slap and giggle" rounds from most player's handicap records, and requires at least one other player to be complicit in posting inflated handicap scores.  It decreases the opportunities for "sandbagging", and I'd love to see the US move towards that kind of system.

[Nixhex524]

7 hours ago, GingerBubba said:

I think Antip above explains the confusion. In England, you're encouraged to put in handicap rounds regularly, so that your handicap is constantly evolving and is representative of your current level of play, but you're certainly not obliged to put in every card - indeed if you intend to put in a card, you have to register your intention to do so BEFORE you start play, plus it has to be attested by someone you play with who also must also have an active handicap (and obviously it has to be played to the rules of golf).

 

The approximate picture at my club is that regular/keen golfers will play a comp every week or two (after which the card obviously gets submitted), maybe another round in that period in which they declare their intention to submit a scorecard and do so, along with a handful of casual rounds where cards aren't submitted, rules are not strictly adhered to and the approach is more relaxed.

 

I'd say that even in a casual round, rules that change outcomes significantly would be adhered to; so in the situation contained in the original post, you would concede the hole to your playing partner, but there'd be nothing wrong with dropping a ball thereafter illegally and finishing the hole for fun.

 

So perhaps therein lies the confusion. In England there is a significant different between a casual round and a round in which you're 'putting in a card' whereas as US rules require cards every round, hence full rules?

 

So basically, you can say, "I feel good today, been hitting the ball really well in my 4 practice rounds this week, think I will post this one today".....   Sounds goofy, I know but you can literally get course time without having to post then post when your skills are sharp.   I'm not sure I would agree thats a true reflection of a players ability, but it is what it is.  

[Mr. Bean]

17 hours ago, TwistedSister said:

A course I played would give each member a scorecard with the pros initials on it. If the card was not turned in the committee would post a score 5 less than one's index

 Why?

[TwistedSister]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

 Why?

Read my previous post.

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

So can you clarify what the line is between a casual round and a handicap round?  I'm a little confused.  We normally post anytime we play... the good, the bad, all of it unless it's a scramble or something like that.  I dont hit "therapy balls", I play my ball out and that's it but my buddies will occasionally hit an extra here or there if they aren't happy with the original.  They dont count it, they just "try again".  IDC as long as they keep moving and they count the original shot.  Are your stated HCP rounds treated the same as competition rounds where it's everything by the book?

 

 

If you do not know it by now I doubt I can shed any light there. But in my mind casual means "not official or tight-a&& thing". Thus on a casual round you hit your golf balls without paying attention on the score as it does not matter at all. In your country a practice round would probably be the closest thing.

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, TwistedSister said:

Read my previous post.

So I need to find your previous post 'cause you are too lazy to quote it? Forget it.

[GingerBubba]

1 hour ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

So basically, you can say, "I feel good today, been hitting the ball really well in my 4 practice rounds this week, think I will post this one today".....   Sounds goofy, I know but you can literally get course time without having to post then post when your skills are sharp.   I'm not sure I would agree thats a true reflection of a players ability, but it is what it is.  

 

Yeah, I guess so. I suppose if you were trying to get your handicap as low as you possibly can, obsessively so, even if it didn't reflect your true ability, this would be the way to go. I don't think many people are like that though. I think most people want to get their handicap low, but for it to be real. I think there's more danger of bandits/sandbaggers trying to have a higher handicap than reality so they can win more comps, but the system at least requires someone with a handicap to play with them and arrest their score.

[TwistedSister]

48 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

 

48 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

So I need to find your previous post 'cause you are too lazy to quote it? Forget it.

To prevent sandbaggers.

Edited September 15, 2022 by TwistedSister

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

I am in SoCal.  I understand what you are saying and what it technically means, but are you really the guy who is going to call a playing partner out for hitting a practice shot after they are in for NDB?  Do you make sure to let them know that they cant post that round now?

 

In the club I was in for 25+ years, the answer is yes. We played by the rules and if someone disregarded them they'd be called on it.

 

But they can post the round as NDB in the max for a hole anyway.

 

Players were also expected, according to the rules, to call penalties on themselves - and we played a team game where everyone in the 4-some was on the same team.

 

One guy, on a winning team that day, the following day, realized he had not replaced his ball correctly on the 16th hole. He'd made par for the team. He called up the captain of the team they'd beaten by a single shot and told him about it and the next week refunded the (extra) $$$ his team had won to the team they tied with.

 

When the guys from the club played with each other elsewhere, on a less formal basis, afaik, also played by the rules.

 

Even in the much less formal/more casual games I play in now, it's the same thing. We play by the rules. Nobody gets practice shots other than those allowed by the rules.

 

Dave earlier covered games in the U.S. very well IMO. Basically it runs the gamut from strictly by the rules to "Who cares ?".

[Mr. Bean]

14 minutes ago, TwistedSister said:

 

To prevent sandbaggers.

 

That is called rule of man. I do not support that.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

So basically, you can say, "I feel good today, been hitting the ball really well in my 4 practice rounds this week, think I will post this one today".....   Sounds goofy, I know but you can literally get course time without having to post then post when your skills are sharp.   I'm not sure I would agree thats a true reflection of a players ability, but it is what it is.  

 

Except those are the guys nobody worries about. Their handicap will be artificially(?) lower.

 

It's the guys who post the HIGH rounds and NOT the low ones everybody's worried about. i.e. sandbagging.