Ball touching Red line...

[idrive]

Not where I can put my hands on the rule book. Hoping for a quick answer.

 

If any part of the ball is touching the red line is it considered in the hazard?

 

If any part of the ball is touching the white line is it in play or OB?

 

 

.

Edited November 12, 2022 by idrive

[sui generis]

11 minutes ago, idrive said:

Not where I can put my hands on the rule book. Hoping for a quick answer.

 

If any part of the ball is touching the red line is it considered in the hazard?

 

If any part of the ball is touching the white line is it in play or OB?

 

 

.

 

From Definitions:

 

When defined by a painted line on the ground, the edge of the penalty area is the outside edge of the line, and the line itself is in the penalty area.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=51

 

The white OB line is out of bounds. The entire ball must be out of bounds for Rule 18.

 

[idrive]

Thank You

 

👍

[QEight]

11 hours ago, idrive said:

Not where I can put my hands on the rule book. Hoping for a quick answer.

Where is this kind of place where you can post but not read the rules?

[Newby]

13 hours ago, idrive said:

Not where I can put my hands on the rule book. Hoping for a quick answer.

 

Try here, just as quick as posting a question.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=pe&section=rule&rulenum=1

[Mr. Bean]

For us who browse the Rules and actual book of Rules it may be easy to find things but for an Average Joe picking up the Rules for the 1st of 3rd time the task is quite challenging. So let us limit ourselves to giving a decent answer (which btw has not yet been delivered, IMO) and leave those snarky remarks away, what do you say?

 

And to the OP: a ball is in a Penalty Area if the ball touches the red (or yellow) line (or a stake defining the edge of a PA). To be out of bounds the ball has to be completely on the other side of the line or on the line. If it touches the line but part of the ball is on the course side of the line the ball is in bounds.

[idrive]

3 hours ago, QEight said:

Where is this kind of place where you can post but not read the rules?

 

On the golf course using my friends' phone to post as I leave mine in the car.  Visiting some friends and did not anticipate playing. Using my friends back up set, his does not have a rules book in the bag as mine does.

 

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Try here, just as quick as posting a question.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=pe&section=rule&rulenum=1

 

@Mr.Bean is correct. Navigating through the rules book (if I had one available to me) is a bit daunting while playing.

 

Ready golf becomes a bit challenging. Hence the hope for a quick answer.

 

Thanks wrx.

[QEight]

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

So let us limit ourselves to giving a decent answer (which btw has not yet been delivered, IMO) and leave those snarky remarks away, what do you say?

 

Who stole your phone Mr B, as that did not sound like you? 😉

 

My question was an honest one and I received an plausible answer. Although posting on a forum most likely will not yield an aswer in time to help in ready golf anyway...

[idrive]

14 minutes ago, QEight said:

 

Who stole your phone Mr B, as that did not sound like you? 😉

 

My question was an honest one and I received an plausible answer. Although posting on a forum most likely will not yield an aswer in time to help in ready golf anyway...

 

Quite frankly, I received an answer before finishing. I would hope that it would be obvious that we did not sit there and wait for an answer. Player did not like the answer I gave him so two balls were played covering the two scenarios. We had our answer when the round was finished and the score of the ball played correctly was used.

 

Thanks again wrx.

[jobin]

Whether the line is red, white or yellow, if the ball touches that line then the ball is, by rule, within the area defined by the line.  

 

Also true, if the ball touches any part of the green, then the ball is 'on the green'.

 

One point of discussion is the ball, certainly not touching the line, but touching a twig or blade of grass which also lies within the defined area: then the ball is also within the defined area. Umm, the unattached twig i'm not 100% on, but pretty sure of the living blade of grass. Because since in the PA the dead twig can be removed but the grass cannot.  Now i am confused coz the blade of grass can be pushed aside (like a shrub limb) to make a shot and if so, then the ball is NOT touching, nor being touched by any living thing, from within the defined area.

 

Perhaps i need help here.  I'll look at the book.  But i think my first (and 2nd) sentence, above, remains accurate.

[rogolf]

25 minutes ago, jobin said:

Whether the line is red, white or yellow, if the ball touches that line then the ball is, by rule, within the area defined by the line.  

 

Also true, if the ball touches any part of the green, then the ball is 'on the green'.

 

One point of discussion is the ball, certainly not touching the line, but touching a twig or blade of grass which also lies within the defined area: then the ball is also within the defined area. Umm, the unattached twig i'm not 100% on, but pretty sure of the living blade of grass. Because since in the PA the dead twig can be removed but the grass cannot.  Now i am confused coz the blade of grass can be pushed aside (like a shrub limb) to make a shot and if so, then the ball is NOT touching, nor being touched by any living thing, from within the defined area.

 

Perhaps i need help here.  I'll look at the book.  But i think my first (and 2nd) sentence, above, remains accurate.

So tell me about a ball laying on the course side of a white line defining out of bounds with the ball touching that line? 

Edited November 12, 2022 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

So tell me about a ball laying on the course side of a white line defining out of bounds with the ball touching that line? 

 

As the white line defines boundaries of the course it is self-evident that a ball laying on the course side is in bounds but a ball laying on the other side touching the line from the outside of the course is out of bounds. Thus @jobin has got it wrong.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, jobin said:

 Now i am confused coz the blade of grass can be pushed aside (like a shrub limb) to make a shot

 

That is not correct. A player is not allowed to move or bend anything growing other than is necessary to fairly take a stance.

[iNeedMoreGolf]

We are lucky the ball is not in a windshield, a person, water, a gators mouth... if the ball is touching a line..im moving it a foot toward saftey and smacking it on the green for birdie lol unless my ball went in a beaver hole or pond im playin that. Tiger aint watching me... im not getting liv money lol id give me fellow players the same break. 

[Colin L]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

As the white line defines boundaries of the course it is self-evident that a ball laying on the course side is in bounds but a ball laying on the other side touching the line from the outside of the course is out of bounds. Thus @jobin has got it wrong.

I don't find it "self-evident".  Out of of bounds is  determined by the edge of the course which is a two dimensional  vertical plane.  It has only vertical and longitudinal dimensions; it has no width. If any part of a ball is above where that edge meets the horizontal, the ball is in bounds. My maths isn't up to knowing whether we can say that if part of a ball  is touching that vertical plane, that part  is above where that edge meets the ground.  Not that we could ever measure to such a degree of fineness, but we do have to make practical decisions.

 

In practice, then, if I have to run my string  between two boundary posts and the ball is lying on the OOB side but just touching the string, is the ball in or out?  I can't pretend the process is all that accurate - not least because the string itself has width.  What's the pragmatic decision?

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

In practice, then, if I have to run my string  between two boundary posts and the ball is lying on the OOB side but just touching the string, is the ball in or out?  I can't pretend the process is all that accurate - not least because the string itself has width.  What's the pragmatic decision?

Given the string has width/thickness and the definitive line/margin joins the course side edges of the posts, the post side of the string must be the margin. Ergo the course side of the string is not OOB.

 

Unless the line of the string is deformed, IMO a ball touching the string is not OOB.

[Itsjustagame]

Rarely necessary to wade through the rule book. Just Google your question/situation and quite often you will get a link to the relevant section(s).

Edited November 13, 2022 by Itsjustagame

[davep043]

40 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

Rarely necessary to wade through the rule book. Just Google your question/situation and quite often you will get a link to the relevant section(s).

Both the online version of the Rules and the phone app have a pretty effective search function.  Using Google might get you the right answer, or it might get you some bozo who has no clue.  Searching the actual Rules is much more likely to get you the right answer.

[Itsjustagame]

16 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Both the online version of the Rules and the phone app have a pretty effective search function.  Using Google might get you the right answer, or it might get you some bozo who has no clue.  Searching the actual Rules is much more likely to get you the right answer.

Typically the Google response is the rule book or some other easily recognized authority.

[Colin L]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

Given the string has width/thickness and the definitive line/margin joins the course side edges of the posts, the post side of the string must be the margin. Ergo the course side of the string is not OOB.

 

Unless the line of the string is deformed, IMO a ball touching the string is not OOB.

But the test is whether part of the ball is above the course [18.2a(2)].  If the ball is just meeting the vertical plane, is the point on the ball that is touching it above the course? I'm beginning to think it isn't.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Colin L

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

I don't find it "self-evident".  Out of of bounds is  determined by the edge of the course which is a two dimensional  vertical plane.  It has only vertical and longitudinal dimensions; it has no width. If any part of a ball is above where that edge meets the horizontal, the ball is in bounds. My maths isn't up to knowing whether we can say that if part of a ball  is touching that vertical plane, that part  is above where that edge meets the ground.  Not that we could ever measure to such a degree of fineness, but we do have to make practical decisions.

 

In practice, then, if I have to run my string  between two boundary posts and the ball is lying on the OOB side but just touching the string, is the ball in or out?  I can't pretend the process is all that accurate - not least because the string itself has width.  What's the pragmatic decision?

 

I am not following your story about vertical thing as in the OP question and in my answer the ball is on the ground, on the course side and touching the white line on the ground. Nothing to do with vertical distances. Nor in the other situation I described where a ball is only touching the white line from the outside of the course. No part of that ball is above the course, not even close as there is almost the entire white line between them. But to be honest, I meant self-evident to only apply to the first part of the sentence but I can now see that it can be construed to apply to the 2nd part as well. Nevertheless, to me also that is very much self-evident.

 

Afa your latter chapter is concerned, a ball touching but not breaking that vertical invisible wall from the outside is in bounds. I had a discussion about this issue with David Rickman (Head of the Rules R&A at that time) and presented him this particular question. He said that a ball in that situation is considered to be in bounds despite my protest that according to the text in the Rules a ball is out of bounds if all of it lies out of  bounds, just as in this particular situation. I hoped that after the discussion the text would have been corrected but that has not been done.

 

EDIT: I demonstrated the issue to David by putting a golf ball leaning against a laptop and asked whether all of that ball was outside the laptop (as it id said in the Rules). He said yes, but the idea is that if the ball is "touching" the 3D course it is in bounds. Well, why the heck the Definition is not written that way?!?!??! 

 

Well, in the end there is no human being able to tell when a ball is in such position so the entire case is simply academic. The referee decides and the player plays on.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

27 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

Typically the Google response is the rule book or some other easily recognized authority.

 

If you are not familiar with the Rules how would you recognize an authority?

[Itsjustagame]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

If you are not familiar with the Rules how would you recognize an authority?

I suggest people try this for themselves. I have no trouble recognizing reliable sources- others may.

Very often the Google response includes a link directly to the USGA rule book.

[sui generis]

39 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

Typically the Google response is the rule book or some other easily recognized authority.

 

Oh, please. If the answer doesn't matter Google is your friend. But, Google is quite likely to show you an out-of-date Rule. 

[sui generis]

Just now, Itsjustagame said:

I suggest people try this for themselves. I have no trouble recognizing reliable sources- others may.

Very often the Google response includes a link directly to the USGA rule book.

 

Often the link is to an inapplicable Rule . . . such as 2012 or a pre-2019 version. 

[Itsjustagame]

4 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Often the link is to an inapplicable Rule . . . such as 2012 or a pre-2019 version. 

Actually often the link is directly to the USGA web site and the applicable section of the rule book. I assume they keep the web site up to date.

[Mr. Bean]

11 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

I suggest people try this for themselves. I have no trouble recognizing reliable sources- others may.

 

I am rather sure most people recognize R&A and USGA but then there are quite a few individuals around who are considered an authority, and I do not mean anyone on this forum.

 

And Sui's comment is also very valid, one needs to check when the response has been given and then if the Rule is still the same. Naturally, if you only read the Rule then it is most likely up-to-date but should you get a direct answer you need to be careful.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[sui generis]

12 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

Actually often the link is directly to the USGA web site and the applicable section of the rule book. I assume they keep the web site up to date.

 

It happens once a week here when some bright spark Googles "water hazard" and quotes us Rule 25. If you don't know what you're looking for then just any old answer will suffice. Garbage in; garbage out.

 

[Itsjustagame]

In todays world millions of people every day rely on Google for more important/complicated subjects than the rules of golf.

One can only hope they are able to recognize good information over bad information/sources.

Garbage in/garbage out impacts all human interaction.

The vast majority of the time for people playing golf with their friends a quick Google rules search while you are on the course will get correct information. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Newby]

2 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

I

The vast majority of the time for people playing golf with their friends a quick Google rules search while you are on the course will get correct information. 

 

A look at the R&A or USGA websites will always get the correct information.