Is this a 68 Ballerina?

[Jbarretta]

Is this a 68 ballerina position? Should the body and arms feel like they are moving in sync in the downswing and continously thorough impact? Or should the pivot brace /stop and the arms would be catapulted almost like a car accident where the car hits a tree and the people inside keep going?

 

My current coach is well known but hes a fan of arms do nothing in transition and you turn into your bicep but that puts me into 68 ballerina.  When I feel like the arms and body move down in sync I have less gap at p6

Edited December 4, 2022 by Jbarretta

[airjammer]

No, I think your arms are just late as it looks like you have potential for a bunch more hip turn after that picture point. Usually the ballerinas have a bunch more hip turn by that point and trap their arms.  Seems like for most of the people who have their arms late they slide more than they should on the downswing but it can be several other reasons.  

Ideally, your lead shoulder shoulder still be level or lower than your trail shoulder at that point in the picture. 
 

I think the arms coming down is the one last thing I haven’t seen a 3d data explanations of exactly how to fix it because as you say there are coaches that say leave the arms up and coaches that say actively try to pull your arms down. 

I feel your pain because I use the pressure board to practice propelling the club and the arms into the backswing and down in the downswing but like you my arms are always late when I use pressure to propel them. 
 

When I actively try to speed up the arms via muscles not stretching the slings, it kills my hip rotation because when you accelerate one body part, another body part as stall or brace to allow that to happen. 
 

Just yesterday “fasteddie480” had a post about this that I commented on. 
https://www.instagram.com/p/CluKDvtuB6T/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

Unfortunately he didn’t exactly say how this is achieved except for he delayed the hips from opening so that his arms could naturally fall down. 

 

[Jbarretta]

Thank you for this great post.  I can get shallow and a ton of lag and really push into the ground with the lead foot and sling the club with my soft arms and pivot.  However when I do on on video my hips and shoulders are facing ball at p6 and I stall to let arms catch up.  The only way I can sync up is to fire the arms and stay closed, and the momentum of the downswing pull me into the pivot. My coach says that's wrong.   they both feel like completely different swings and I'm not sure what my intent should be.  I dont really get to 90 degree shoulder turn so my pivot on downswing doesnt have far to travel to get shoulders and hips square to the ball.

 

Thanks for the tip on level shoulders at p6   I think I have over done side bend and my feel shoulder be turn level through the ball 

[Krt22]

Yep

[MonteScheinblum]

IMO, turning into the lead arm is misinterpreted by most golfers that gets them out of sequence, like you do here.

 

The lead arm accelerates off the chest no later than P5 and most elites are much earlier.  If you turn into the lead arm, that’s happening at the beginning of the downswing, which will make your arm acceleration late.  If you shift the chest into the arm, that’s the last part of the backswing and allows the arm to accelerate on time.

[Jbarretta]

3 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

 If you shift the chest into the arm, that’s the last part of the backswing and allows the arm to accelerate on time.

Thanks for replying Monte.  Can you explain this last part? Is there is a difference between shift the chest into the arm vs turn?

[Chunkitgood]

You coach is right and is giving you good advice.  You should be patient and listen to him.  Or you can not really try to do what he says and seek contrary advice to really confuse yourself.

 

No idea what a 68 ballerina is, and don’t want to have one. 

[MonteScheinblum]

8 hours ago, Jbarretta said:

Thanks for replying Monte.  Can you explain this last part? Is there is a difference between shift the chest into the arm vs turn?

A huge difference.  
 

Put your left arm in a space and leave it there.  Shift into it at the end of the backswing.

 

Put your left arm in the same space get to the top of the swing and rotate your chest.

 

Those are completely different moves.

[michaeld_2020]

@MonteScheinblum

 

Can we have a video explaining the above? That's so confusing - I have taken multiple online videos with you and the common theme you give me is to accelerate the arms sooner to avoid the hip spin out.

[Jbarretta]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/gallery/mike-bender-power-at-impact-with-zach-johnson/amp

 

Here is bender method accelerate arms and stop the pivot to create a slingshot.  Pretty much the opposite of soft arms and continuous rotation through impact.  Also promotes closed shoulders at impact.  

 

Here is a lead arm adduction move which for me gets my arms looking late on video

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Jbarretta

[Simpsonia]

5 hours ago, michaeld_2020 said:

@MonteScheinblum

 

Can we have a video explaining the above? That's so confusing - I have taken multiple online videos with you and the common theme you give me is to accelerate the arms sooner to avoid the hip spin out.

 

First, you need to understand the difference between moving the arms vs moving the shoulders (or more aptly, the shoulder girdle). AMG has a really good video demonstrating the difference, anatomically, between tour golfers and ams. Most people who leave the arms behind have far too much arm adduction and not enough shoulder retraction/extension. 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Simpsonia

[Zitlow]

Is Rory's left arm blasting off his chest? 

 

 

 

[Jbarretta]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Is Rory's left arm blasting off his chest? 

 

 

 

 

It looks to me like he is pulling his arms immediately in downswing but keeping width and retracing the backswing hand plane

Edited December 5, 2022 by Jbarretta

[golfarb1]

[RoyalTroon]

3 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Is Rory's left arm blasting off his chest?

 

[Ifelloffladder]

It's no wonder so many golfers are confused with the golf swing. Swing arms don't swing arm, rotate, don't rotate, etc. Lol.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, Jbarretta said:

 

It looks to me like he is pulling his arms immediately in downswing but keeping width and retracing the backswing hand plane

There are perceptions of the swing that have taken golfers down the wrong path for a century.  Then there are actual measurements of the swing that have been done in the last 5-10 years that tell us what golfers actually do.

 

I see this EVERY DAY.  Below was from an online lesson of a low cap. A slightly different camera angle, but if they were the same, the gap would be even greater. If the ams camera were more to the right, he would look more pinned or if Tiger’s was more behind, the gap would look greater.

 

In basically 100% of elite golfers, there is a SLIGHT adduction (pinning) of the left arm in transition when the body shifts left.  Then the left arm rapidly accelerates away from the chest before p5 (left arm parallel in the downswing).  Ams tend to accelerate their arms and hands later and slower than elite golfers.  Ams tend to rotate their shoulders early.  Ams tend to keep their left arm pinned beyond P5.  

 

These are all objective measurements from AMG and Phill Cheetham with AMM. 

 

There is an additional perception that makes things confusing. As you come to impact, that window the left arm creates is closed.  So if you look at the swing at the top and at impact, the left arm is in relatively the same distance from the chest.  That is the confusing part.

 

In general, you want the lead arm and hips to point in the same direction.  You can see Tiger is lined up and the am is crossed up.

 

However, let’s look at this objectively from a similar movement perspective.

 

If you were hitting a left handed cross court backhand or throwing a frisbee left handed (as a right handed golfer), would you turn into the left arm and keep it there, or would you fire the left arm off your chest as you rotated?

 

we can make it even simpler.  At shaft parallel coming into impact, most ams are like the OP.  Hands behind the right thigh.  Elite golfers have the hands in from of the right thigh.  You aren’t getting to impact correctly with the hands behind the thigh and that’s from the arms and hands accelerating late and/or in the wrong direction.

Edited December 5, 2022 by MonteScheinblum

[MonteScheinblum]

Look how the trail arm, elbow, thigh and knee line up in the pro.  When Rose was #1 and known to the most efficient body force graphs (Rotational, vertical and lateral).

 

Look how the OP is way behind.  This is from keeping the lead arm pinned too long.  The longer the lead arm stays pinned the more the trail elbow is going to be behind.  You can see it in the photo above with tiger and the lesson.

Edited December 5, 2022 by MonteScheinblum

[jholz]

Interesting stuff, but this is kind of like Web MD or something.

 

Not only does the weird pain in my side seem to suggest that I have colon cancer, now I've got to worry about the "68 ballerina position."

 

Dear lord...

[Zitlow]

3 hours ago, Jbarretta said:

 

It looks to me like he is pulling his arms immediately in downswing but keeping width and retracing the backswing hand plane

People should view golf instruction with a healthy dose of skepticism. The golf swing is an athletic motion not a series of mechanical positions. 

 

Simplicity speaking the lower body swings the upper body, the upper body swings the arms and the hands swing the club. 

 

 

In the downswing his shoulder complex and chest make a tight turn (no wobble), they react to his lower body pivot. His left arm goes along for the ride.

 

Notice how his head is over his right leg until after impact when the pull of the clubhead pulls his right side into the finish.

 

His right arm is pulled to parallel bringing his head up and forward. He comes out of his spine angle and his upper left arm comes off his pec as he glides to the finish. 

 

If his left arm is blasting off his chest maybe someone can point it out so I can see it.

 

@RonJon nobody likes a smartypants. lol

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Zitlow

[johnrobison]

3 hours ago, Zitlow said:

People should view golf instruction with a healthy dose of skepticism. The golf swing is an athletic motion not a series of mechanical positions. 

 

Simplicity speaking the lower body swings the upper body, the upper body swings the arms and the hands swing the club. 

 

 

In the downswing his shoulder complex and chest make a tight turn (no wobble), they react to his lower body pivot. His left arm goes along for the ride.

 

 

Notice how his head is over his right leg until after impact when the pull of the clubhead pulls his right side into the finish.

 

His right arm is pulled to parallel bringing his head up and forward. He comes out of his spine angle and his upper left arm comes off his pec as he glides to the finish. 

 

If his left arm is blasting off his chest maybe someone can point it out so I can see it.

 

@RonJon nobody likes a smartypants. lol

 

 

 

I'll do my best to point it out:

[chigolfer1]

1 hour ago, johnrobison said:

I'll do my best to point it out:

 

I do have to say the term, arm coming off your chest, or blasting off your chest is hard to understand exactly what is meant.   That said, in general, I definitely know how it feels to get your arms sort of ahead of your pivot (in the correct way) because I've for so long had them stuck to my chest.  Even in slow motion it feels different and freeing.  And you can definitely see something along these lines in third Rory pic.

Edited December 6, 2022 by chigolfer1

[Zitlow]

45 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

I'll do my best to point it out:

 

I still don't see at what point his left arm blasted off his chest. His upper left arm gets a free ride with his shoulder structure and chest. His upper left arm doesn't release from his pec until he's well into his follow through. 

 

 

The illustration you posted is good because it shows the relationship of the triangle with the club loaded between his shoulders, arms and hands. They start unloading on the way to the ball as the energy flows through his shoulders, arms and hands out to the clubhead snapping the club head through the ball. 

 

Rory is not a big guy but he's one of the longest on tour because he swings the club dynamically using all the levers in his body in sequence from the ground up.

 

The idea is too take the slack out of the joints as you start down. Swinging the arms, dropping the arms or pulling the arms creates slack a speed killer.

 

 

He uses his lower body, upper body, and right arm like a whip to snap the clubhead through the ball with his hands. 

[YouDaHamHider]

5 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

I still don't see at what point his left arm blasted off his chest. His upper left arm gets a free ride with his shoulder structure and chest. His upper left arm doesn't release from his pec until he's well into his follow through. 

 

 

The illustration you posted is good because it shows the relationship of the triangle with the club loaded between his shoulders, arms and hands. They start unloading on the way to the ball as the energy flows through his shoulders, arms and hands out to the clubhead snapping the club head through the ball. 

 

Rory is not a big guy but he's one of the longest on tour because he swings the club dynamically using all the levers in his body in sequence from the ground up.

 

The idea is too take the slack out of the joints as you start down. Swinging the arms, dropping the arms or pulling the arms creates slack a speed killer.

 

 

 

He uses his lower body, upper body, and right arm like a whip to snap the clubhead through the ball with his hands. 

To be fair isn't this as simple to understand as whipping a towel? Try whipping a towel with a lead arm accelerating off the chest and then try whipping a towel with just a shoulder turn. I haven't got fancy body motion sensors or access to the database of tour measurements but it just seems so obvious to me that the arms need to be accelerating off the chest like a Ferrari fueled with meth.

[Rapidcat]

10 hours ago, jholz said:

Interesting stuff, but this is kind of like Web MD or something.

 

Not only does the weird pain in my side seem to suggest that I have colon cancer, now I've got to worry about the "68 ballerina position."

 

Dear lord...

 

I don't understand where the '68' comes from.

 

Now on the other hand the '6x ballerina position'.....(substitute the 'x' whatever number you prefer) might have more meaning.

[GolfTurkey]

1 hour ago, Rapidcat said:

 

I don't understand where the '68' comes from.

 

Body is at P8 but arms are left behind at P6.

[johnrobison]

10 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

I still don't see at what point his left arm blasted off his chest. His upper left arm gets a free ride with his shoulder structure and chest. His upper left arm doesn't release from his pec until he's well into his follow through.

I don't know what more I can do, then. It's obvious to me that the distance between his trail shoulder and lead arm has increased quite a bit from the top of his backswing down. I even drew a line to illustrate the fact. I've no idea why you don't see that, unless perhaps you just don't want to.

 

Have another look:

[jholz]

Given the explanations, I now understand at least some of the logic concerning the "68" in the "68 ballerina" tendency or position.

 

But, this nomenclature is classic golf instruction. Not only are we going to introduce a term that will be completely meaningless to most average golfers, but it goes further to slightly insult the user for having this tendency.

 

Pretty much a "yes, you suck and you are also really stupid and regularly make an idiot of yourself" kind of moment.

 

Just what everyone want to hear from a teacher.

Edited December 6, 2022 by jholz

[Jbarretta]

Experimented at the range today trying to close the gap at P6  had the intent of getting less lead arm adduction during backswing and downswing.  This before and after was the best I got.  Not sure why but when i set up open ( felt very open but when i put alignment stick down foot line wasnt an open as i felt) and had intent to get arm off chest and swing to the target  i had less gap at P6.  I believe the open stance made my brain not rotate the shoulder girdle as much in order to not pull the shot.  Almost felt like a push and felt repeatable.  

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

12 hours ago, chigolfer1 said:

 

I do have to say the term, arm coming off your chest, or blasting off your chest is hard to understand exactly what is meant.   That said, in general, I definitely know how it feels to get your arms sort of ahead of your pivot (in the correct way) because I've for so long had them stuck to my chest.  Even in slow motion it feels different and freeing.  And you can definitely see something along these lines in third Rory pic.

I personally hate the term 'get the left arm off the chest' or 'blast the left arm off the chest'.  I had some lesson from a well known instructor a few years ago who used this term and had me work on it for two consecutive lessons.  Six months later I went from a 2 to a 7.  I was definitely too slow, stuck and jammed up with my arms and upper body, but the message just didn't connect with me.  I became very passive with my upper body and hips trying to get the left arm moving.  It actually caused my to quit playing for about 5 years until this past Spring.  Still makes me a little bitter that I gave this guy a freaking penny.

Edited December 6, 2022 by KNOWMOREDOUBLES