New Rapsodo Product/Launch?

[SE Gamer]

29 minutes ago, DLiver said:

I don't know everyone is crapping all over the impact view feature. We have a local sim that has something similar and it is the most useful data point provided IMO. I mean, its all about what happens at impact, right?

 

Because it's strike location on a very macro level (and from the wrong side of the club/ball). Essentially, at most it gives you an idea of roughly what quadrant the ball struck the face. And a lot of guys can feel that just as easily.

 

It's funny how Rapsodo calls it "the moment of truth". More like the moment of "somewhere around there-ish." If it weren't for the fact that camera is what's responsible for the spin data, it'd be a complete novelty. 

 

And frankly if that's the most useful data point, you don't need to spend $700 and another $200 each year to get it. Just set your phone up on slow-mo behind the ball. 

[GolfANA]

48 minutes ago, DLiver said:

I don't know everyone is crapping all over the impact view feature. We have a local sim that has something similar and it is the most useful data point provided IMO. I mean, its all about what happens at impact, right?

I don’t think anyone is crapping on it. I think it’s more that some of us are disappointed that such a tool isn’t being used to actually measure club path and face to path for more data points. If it has the technology, why not offer the data points instead of just a replay. 

[DLiver]

2 hours ago, GolfANA said:

I don’t think anyone is crapping on it. I think it’s more that some of us are disappointed that such a tool isn’t being used to actually measure club path and face to path for more data points. If it has the technology, why not offer the data points instead of just a replay. 

I wasn't aware that the MLM2 didn't provide face and path metrics. My bad.

[golfun]

 

I think it’s cool to have but this is what I meant. From behind is it open or closed and where exactly is impact on face? Top down obviously is not possible on a LM like this but shows obvious visual data like face angle and club path. 

[SE Gamer]

1 hour ago, golfun said:

 

I think it’s cool to have but this is what I meant. From behind is it open or closed and where exactly is impact on face? Top down obviously is not possible on a LM like this but shows obvious visual data like face angle and club path. 

 

Exactly. It's inherently flawed for the purpose of strike location. And that's not even considering the margin of error from parallax in both horizontal and vertical planes. There's just no way you could rely upon that for any meaningful insight.

 

And to be clear, I'm not trying to trash it. In fact, I think the impact camera is an amazing feature. But only for the purposes of reading spin and axis. Beyond that, the footage is a novelty. Yet I'll be happy to eat crow if Rapsodo finds a way to harness it for tangible and accurate strike/club data. 

[SE Gamer]

Funny how there are quite a few people in the MLM 2 Pro FB group who ordered the thing. Not realizing they won't get any spin or axis data without the specially marked Callaway balls. And then another segment hoping the Titleist RCT balls will help with spin readings. Does no one do any due diligence on a product before diving in these days???

[Bubbtubbs]

49 minutes ago, SE Gamer said:

Funny how there are quite a few people in the MLM 2 Pro FB group who ordered the thing. Not realizing they won't get any spin or axis data without the specially marked Callaway balls. And then another segment hoping the Titleist RCT balls will help with spin readings. Does no one do any due diligence on a product before diving in these days???

Short answer is no.

[ksher84]

1 hour ago, SE Gamer said:

Funny how there are quite a few people in the MLM 2 Pro FB group who ordered the thing. Not realizing they won't get any spin or axis data without the specially marked Callaway balls. And then another segment hoping the Titleist RCT balls will help with spin readings. Does no one do any due diligence on a product before diving in these days???

No.  Looked cool so impulsively preordered

if I don’t like it, I’ll sell it and get something else

 

my home course got rid of the range, so I was at the very least just wanting this to warm up before a round and maybe get some decent feedback.  Going out cold has been terrible for my iron game

 

 

[SE Gamer]

1 minute ago, ksher84 said:

No.  Looked cool so impulsively preordered

if I don’t like it, I’ll sell it and get something else

 

my home course got rid of the range, so I was at the very least just wanting this to warm up before a round and maybe get some decent feedback.  Going out cold has been terrible for my iron game

 

 

 

Hey, at least you're honest with where you're at. FWIW, I think it'll still be a solid unit. Just not without its downsides. Which depending on how you plan to use it, may or may not be a big deal.

[tips09]

1 hour ago, SE Gamer said:

Funny how there are quite a few people in the MLM 2 Pro FB group who ordered the thing. Not realizing they won't get any spin or axis data without the specially marked Callaway balls. And then another segment hoping the Titleist RCT balls will help with spin readings. Does no one do any due diligence on a product before diving in these days???

Very few do. My plan is to wait until the end of this golf season and gather as much information and reviews on the majority of this years sub $1000 launch monitors and hopefully pick up something on sale at some point. At this point the mlm2 is definitely a consideration but I will wait to see plenty of data and reviews before I commit.

[SE Gamer]

Just now, tips09 said:

Very few do. My plan is to wait until the end of this golf season and gather as much information and reviews on the majority of this years sub $1000 launch monitors and hopefully pick up something on sale at some point. At this point the mlm2 is definitely a consideration but I will wait to see plenty of data and reviews before I commit.

 

I'd say that's a solid plan. And is kind of the approach I'm taking as well.

 

Also will be the first to say that doing due diligence doesn't always guarantee things will work out. Was an early adopter of the Hybrid X3 from Swing Logic. Did a good bit of research. Even talked with top company folks. The unit/idea is actually a solid solution. Problem is that the nano sensor portion of it proved to be unreliable at giving readings. They're in the process of designing a new nano sensor. Which current users can do an exchange for. But still has been a bit of a let down in the interim. 

So I'm waiting on that. Along with giving it some time for others to be the early adopters for the MLM 2, SC4, etc. 

[ksher84]

11 minutes ago, SE Gamer said:

 

Hey, at least you're honest with where you're at. FWIW, I think it'll still be a solid unit. Just not without its downsides. Which depending on how you plan to use it, may or may not be a big deal.

I really just want the range with some minimal data.  I don’t expect this at all to be a budget gc4 or anything crazy like that.  Don’t really care for playing rounds of sim golf.  My instructor wants me to bring it up when I get it to see how it compares to his monitor (flightscope x series I believe).  
 

 

this one just seemed like a good option because I plan to use it in my garage or basement.   I don’t want to hit balls outside because I don’t think my neighbors would appreciate the noise

Edited March 17, 2023 by ksher84

[SE Gamer]

4 minutes ago, ksher84 said:

I really just want the range with some minimal data.  I don’t expect this at all to be a budget gc4 or anything crazy like that.  Don’t really care for playing rounds of sim golf.  My instructor wants me to bring it up when I get it to see how it compares to his monitor (flightscope x series I believe).  
 

 

this one just seemed like a good option because I plan to use it in my garage or basement.   I don’t want to hit balls outside because I don’t think my neighbors would appreciate the noise

 

That'd be my interest in it as well (home use, but not really caring much about simulation). So the specially marked balls aren't as big a deal for me. What is a big deal is locking spin data behind a paywall. Which I hope they'll learn is not a good look. 

I do have a secondary net that I'll put in the yard on occasion (ceiling in my sim room isn't high enough to comfortably swing driver). But it's not unusual for folks to get some (gun) range time in on their properties around here. So I don't worry about a little golf noise 🙂

[prusd]

20 hours ago, DLiver said:

I wasn't aware that the MLM2 didn't provide face and path metrics. My bad.

 

I think it may be a little more complicated. 

 

I remember this video from around the time the device was launched in January.  Check out the graphic at around 20 seconds.  You will see that club path and angle of attack are listed as metrics being measured.  

 

Now, they updated that graphic and removed those two club data points.  Was it a marketing error at the time?  Or maybe they will release those club metrics sometime in the future.  It remains to be seen.

 

https://twitter.com/RapsodoGolf/status/1618256345945497605?cxt=HHwWioDT-dPkmfUsAAAA

 

[TheDominator273]

How precise do you need to be with placement? The auto tracer has me thinking how this could be an interesting way to capture a round on video while also getting the data of each shot. But that goes away if you have to be super precise in how far from the ball it has to be placed.

[Walkerdb7]

4 hours ago, SE Gamer said:

Funny how there are quite a few people in the MLM 2 Pro FB group who ordered the thing. Not realizing they won't get any spin or axis data without the specially marked Callaway balls. And then another segment hoping the Titleist RCT balls will help with spin readings. Does no one do any due diligence on a product before diving in these days???

I come here to ask the dumb questions...

Because the balls need marking, 0% chance this could ever work with the RCT balls?

[Simpsonia]

5 minutes ago, Walkerdb7 said:

I come here to ask the dumb questions...

Because the balls need marking, 0% chance this could ever work with the RCT balls?

 

Unlikely. Technically if someone made the pattern, you could add it to a RCT ball. However, unless the MLM2's software is programmed to detect the return signature of the metal within the RCT ball, it will likely not read the strike at all. Before the R10 added RCT support, it didn't read them at all. And since Rapsodo has a partnership with Callaway, they have zero incentive to add support for metal dot/RCT technology. 

[Walkerdb7]

1 hour ago, Simpsonia said:

 

Unlikely. Technically if someone made the pattern, you could add it to a RCT ball. However, unless the MLM2's software is programmed to detect the return signature of the metal within the RCT ball, it will likely not read the strike at all. Before the R10 added RCT support, it didn't read them at all. And since Rapsodo has a partnership with Callaway, they have zero incentive to add support for metal dot/RCT technology. 

Recently got the R10. Waiting for my net to come to actually set it all up. Ordered some RCT balls and tried them at a local sim. Didn't read them at all. The balls they had had markings all over them like the Callaway.

 

the MLM2 got me excited when I first saw saw it because the existing MLM beat the R10 in all the accuracy shootouts I saw... but the higher price tag and lack of ball freedom steered me to R10

Edited March 18, 2023 by Walkerdb7

[SE Gamer]

6 hours ago, Walkerdb7 said:

I come here to ask the dumb questions...

Because the balls need marking, 0% chance this could ever work with the RCT balls?

 

Maybe I'll be the one eating crow. But the only way the MLM 2 will "work" with RCT balls if if someone takes a sharpie and marks them up in the exact same pattern as the callaway RPT balls. 

RCT balls are designed to enhance radar's ability to read spin. Hence why they are popular mentions when talking about the R10, Mevo +, Trackman, etc. And especially for those using those radar units indoors. 

 

For the MLM 2 however, its radar is reading nothing in regards to spin. Instead the camera is doing all the work for spin and spin axis. Hence why it needs the funky RPT pattern on the callaway balls. And hence why spin and axis numbers don't even show up as calculated if you're using anything other than their custom RPT balls. 

 

Again, this may change in the future. But current state, Rapsodo has flatly stated you won't get any spin numbers unless you use the RPT balls. Anything else (range ball, RCT, etc.), and you're not getting any spin data.

 

What still is yet to be seen is whether someone can "roll their own" RPT balls. As in, mark up any brand/model ball in the exact same pattern as the Callaway RPT ball. I do suspect this will work. 

Edited March 18, 2023 by SE Gamer

[Walkerdb7]

Would love to see MGS to redo the R10 with the RCT balls. Based on all the feedback, seems like that was the missing link for R10.
 

R10+level base is still $150 cheaper than the MLM 2. R10 was #5 most accurate pre-RCT balls and is better now. TBH, I don't see the MLM 2 hype. If anything, 80% of consumers would prefer to do hardcore testing with a Titleist ball.

[SE Gamer]

4 hours ago, Walkerdb7 said:

Would love to see MGS to redo the R10 with the RCT balls. Based on all the feedback, seems like that was the missing link for R10.
 

R10+level base is still $150 cheaper than the MLM 2. R10 was #5 most accurate pre-RCT balls and is better now. TBH, I don't see the MLM 2 hype. If anything, 80% of consumers would prefer to do hardcore testing with a Titleist ball.

 

Hopefully that's what Golficity will be doing with their MLM 2 vs. R10 comparison.

 

It sounds like they used a GC3 as a "control" for that testing. So the ideal scenario would be first test R10 with RCT balls. Then MLM 2 with RPT balls. Or vice versa. But with the GC3 as the benchmark for all testing. 

 

Would also be interesting to run the tests again with no RCT/RPT balls. Just to see how much the R10 and MLM 2 suffer from not being paired with their purpose built ball. 

As for your "80% of consumers" comment, I'm not sure I buy into that.  With the prevalence of high quality/premium balls these days, plenty of consumers aren't playing the Pro V. For instance, Callaway, Vice, and even Maxfli are more popular in the league I play in than Titleist. The truth is, most people would want to do hardcore testing with the ball they actually play. And for a lot of guys, that isn't Titleist. 

[Walkerdb7]

Just now, SE Gamer said:

As for your "80% of consumers" comment, I'm not sure I buy into that.  With the prevalence of high quality/premium balls these days, plenty of consumers aren't playing the Pro V. For instance, Callaway, Vice, and even Maxfli are more popular in the league I play in than Titleist. The truth is, most people would want to do hardcore testing with the ball they actually play. And for a lot of guys, that isn't Titleist. 

I think we are saying similar things here, maybe I just wasn't precise enough with my language. The RCT is a win IMO compared to the Callaway.

 

Titleist is still the most popular ball, so that's a win for Garmin in itself. Titleist also offers AVX, -, X, and ProV1. So there are 4 compatible balls for Garmin and 1 for the MLM2. If you are a Srixon or Bridgestone guy, there are more choices with the Titleist to get something closer to what you play than with a single Callaway

 

The all white balls are also more natural to look down at.

[Bubbtubbs]

1 hour ago, SE Gamer said:

 

Hopefully that's what Golficity will be doing with their MLM 2 vs. R10 comparison.

 

It sounds like they used a GC3 as a "control" for that testing. So the ideal scenario would be first test R10 with RCT balls. Then MLM 2 with RPT balls. Or vice versa. But with the GC3 as the benchmark for all testing. 

 

Would also be interesting to run the tests again with no RCT/RPT balls. Just to see how much the R10 and MLM 2 suffer from not being paired with their purpose built ball. 

As for your "80% of consumers" comment, I'm not sure I buy into that.  With the prevalence of high quality/premium balls these days, plenty of consumers aren't playing the Pro V. For instance, Callaway, Vice, and even Maxfli are more popular in the league I play in than Titleist. The truth is, most people would want to do hardcore testing with the ball they actually play. And for a lot of guys, that isn't Titleist. 

Most of the flight models are built using the ProV1 so a lot of launch monitors are basically assuming you're using that ball when it projects the shot trajectory.

 

How different the real world results will be from a ProV to a Z-star/Vice/Snell/B330 is the subject of much debate.

[rlb4]

3 hours ago, SE Gamer said:

Would also be interesting to run the tests again with no RCT/RPT balls. Just to see how much the R10 and MLM 2 suffer from not being paired with their purpose built ball. 

 

I believe Rapsodo has confirmed that the MLM2 will not give any spin #'s without the RPT balls. The R10 will at least give spin #'s with any ball.

Edited March 18, 2023 by rlb4

[SE Gamer]

12 minutes ago, rlb4 said:

I believe Rapsodo has confirmed that the MLM2 will not give any spin #'s without the RPT balls. The R10 will at least give spin #'s with any ball.

 

Correct. So it'd be interesting to see how much the other data suffers without any spin collected for the MLM 2. And likewise see how the R10 performs in collecting spin without the RCT balls. 

[salmon1man]

On 3/18/2023 at 6:11 PM, SE Gamer said:

 

Correct. So it'd be interesting to see how much the other data suffers without any spin collected for the MLM 2. And likewise see how the R10 performs in collecting spin without the RCT balls. 

So I have been using the MLM2Pro for the past ~month pretty much strictly into a net using the RPT balls.  It didn't even come to my mind to try out something other than the RPT ball.  I already use chrome soft x ls (and the RPT is a chrome soft x) so I didn't notice much of a difference.  I will use a prov1 this week to see any differences in yardages and what metrics it doesn't pick up versus the RPT ball.

[SE Gamer]

13 minutes ago, salmon1man said:

So I have been using the MLM2Pro for the past ~month pretty much strictly into a net using the RPT balls.  It didn't even come to my mind to try out something other than the RPT ball.  I already use chrome soft x ls (and the RPT is a chrome soft x) so I didn't notice much of a difference.  I will use a prov1 this week to see any differences in yardages and what metrics it doesn't pick up versus the RPT ball.

 

Cool. Would be interesting to have a sampling back-to-back indoors of X shots with the special RPT ball, and the same number with a non-RPT ball. And see how the data/averages differ. 

 

[Brdgolf1]

Not sure if anyone has asked this or not, but since the MLM2Pro is also a radar based unit, is it capable of reading spin from a RCT ball that all the other radar based units are capable of?

 

 

[jimecherry]

29 minutes ago, Brdgolf1 said:

Not sure if anyone has asked this or not, but since the MLM2Pro is also a radar based unit, is it capable of reading spin from a RCT ball that all the other radar based units are capable of?

 

 

technically yes however it would require rapsodo to calibrate the software for it ie the R10 initially didnt support RCT balls.

[SE Gamer]

1 hour ago, jimecherry said:

technically yes however it would require rapsodo to calibrate the software for it ie the R10 initially didnt support RCT balls.

 

So the answer is, no. And we can presume this is unlikely to happen.

 

For one, it sounds like Rapsodo doesn't have the best track record in updating/enhancing existing products (just look at the first MLM and how they were never able to figure out how to make it work with android).

 

Two, they'd be giving up a niche revenue stream. As the RPT ball is specific only to their LM. 

 

Three, if the radar were to read spin, would they still be able to take advantage of folks in locking spin behind a paywall?

 

Four, reading RCT balls would mean the impact camera is basically useless. As it's not collecting any other data.

And five, even if they were to open up that functionality, it's unlikely it'll be as accurate with RCT balls as it is with RPT balls.

Genuinely curious what guidance Rapsodo has given early testers in relation to what they share and how they answer questions. Seems here and in the FB groups, the testers have been obfuscating, vague, and/or trying to put a favorable twist on its shortcomings.