New Rapsodo Product/Launch?

[Garydean]

21 minutes ago, salmon1man said:

I think the impact vision is not for everyone's viewing pleasure but is needed to accurately measure spin and spin-axis using the RPT balls.  I have found it helpful if I think I am hitting it more off the toe, then I watch impact vision to confirm it.

How is the performance indoors, setup distance and numbers pretty accurate?

[SE Gamer]

1 hour ago, golfun said:

Is it just me or does the black and white "Impact Vision" camera look useless? Watching: 

 

The video shows many times Impact Vision of the slow motion club impact.

*The problem is the video is from BEHIND the clubhead completely blocking impact. Top down slowmo cameras show impact and precisely what is going on(club face angle, impact). What would one even draw from this angle that is helpful? It's also not enough frames per second so it skips greatly even over the moment of impact kinda defeating the purpose?

Not saying it isn't cool but from what I can see it's not a "feature" worth buying over another device. Thoughts?

 

I agree. For the purpose of reading spin, it's great. But beyond that it's kind of a gimmick. Rapsodo was calling it "the moment of truth" lol. But in reality it's strike location on a very macro level, and from the wrong side of the ball. Could basically achieve the same video capture with your phone.

[rlb4]

1 hour ago, golfun said:

Is it just me or does the black and white "Impact Vision" camera look useless? Watching: 

 

The video shows many times Impact Vision of the slow motion club impact.

*The problem is the video is from BEHIND the clubhead completely blocking impact. Top down slowmo cameras show impact and precisely what is going on(club face angle, impact). What would one even draw from this angle that is helpful? It's also not enough frames per second so it skips greatly even over the moment of impact kinda defeating the purpose?

Not saying it isn't cool but from what I can see it's not a "feature" worth buying over another device. Thoughts?

Yeah, doesn't seem that great with the frames per second. It would have been so much better to give the path and face angles. It seems like it should be capable of it with it having both radar and the impact camera. Hopefully just some software programming.

[Simpsonia]

I'll be honest, the only thing I'm waiting for and actually care about is comparisons to show accuracy of spin axis. Spin Axis is the only thing that meaningfully sets this device apart from the R10. 

[Garydean]

22 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

I'll be honest, the only thing I'm waiting for and actually care about is comparisons to show accuracy of spin axis. Spin Axis is the only thing that meaningfully sets this device apart from the R10. 

That is the only thing really not keeping me from buying an r10

[golfun]

What is enabling/how is it reading spin axis? (Could r10 ever do it?)

[SE Gamer]

12 minutes ago, golfun said:

What is enabling/how is it reading spin axis? (Could r10 ever do it?)

 

Feel like I just answered this in the other thread, lol. The "shot vision" camera is what's reading spin axis.

 

As for the R10, I've got mixed intel on whether it actually reads or calculates spin axis. But it does give data on it. Along with some club data (which the MLM 2 Pro gives none). 

Edited March 15, 2023 by SE Gamer

[Dan13]

29 minutes ago, SE Gamer said:

 

Feel like I just answered this in the other thread, lol. The "shot vision" camera is what's reading spin axis.

 

As for the R10, I've got mixed intel on whether it actually reads or calculates spin axis. But it does give data on it. Along with some club data (which the MLM 2 Pro gives none). 

Radar units do not measure spin axis indoors (or outside technically). They can back into accurate spin axis numbers by 1) watching a significant portion of the flight or 2) using other data points to calculate it (club path, face to path, total spin, etc) and assumes center contact (cannot account for gear effect unless a significant portion of the flight is observed). Only camera units can measure spin axis directly currently. 

[SE Gamer]

54 minutes ago, Dan13 said:

Radar units do not measure spin axis indoors (or outside technically). They can back into accurate spin axis numbers by 1) watching a significant portion of the flight or 2) using other data points to calculate it (club path, face to path, total spin, etc) and assumes center contact (cannot account for gear effect unless a significant portion of the flight is observed). Only camera units can measure spin axis directly currently. 

 

That makes sense. I asked one of the Golf Simulator YT guys about what the R10 actually reads recently. His reply was below. I just wasn't sure what measured by radar actually entailed...

 

 

Direct from garmin and these are the latest statements from them.

 

Indoors (Spin)

 

Calculated using a machine-learned model that uses measured radar metrics as inputs.

 

Outdoors (Spin)

 

Calculated by one of the following:

 

• Observed ball trajectory by the radar
• Measured by the radar

 

I should add this too...

 

Spin is not measured when the ball is seen for less than 20m (i.e. only outdoors at the range). Spin is not measured for balls going slower than 90 mph. Spin measurement is designed to work with standard golf balls, however, some balls will work better than others due to their profile and composition.

 

If spin measurement is not possible the system falls back to the alternative calculation method. Intentionally marked balls (e.g. metallic stickers) may degrade system performance. Wind may affect the spin measurement accuracy (particularly head or tail wind).

[Dan13]

1 hour ago, SE Gamer said:

 

That makes sense. I asked one of the Golf Simulator YT guys about what the R10 actually reads recently. His reply was below. I just wasn't sure what measured by radar actually entailed...

 

 

Direct from garmin and these are the latest statements from them.

 

Indoors (Spin)

 

Calculated using a machine-learned model that uses measured radar metrics as inputs.

 

Outdoors (Spin)

 

Calculated by one of the following:

 

• Observed ball trajectory by the radar
• Measured by the radar

 

I should add this too...

 

Spin is not measured when the ball is seen for less than 20m (i.e. only outdoors at the range). Spin is not measured for balls going slower than 90 mph. Spin measurement is designed to work with standard golf balls, however, some balls will work better than others due to their profile and composition.

 

If spin measurement is not possible the system falls back to the alternative calculation method. Intentionally marked balls (e.g. metallic stickers) may degrade system performance. Wind may affect the spin measurement accuracy (particularly head or tail wind).

Yes. Difference between spin and spin axis. Spin can be /often is measured by radar units. The RCT ball really helps with that indoors. The axis around which the ball spins is much more difficult to measure. 

[SE Gamer]

1 hour ago, Dan13 said:

Yes. Difference between spin and spin axis. Spin can be /often is measured by radar units. The RCT ball really helps with that indoors. The axis around which the ball spins is much more difficult to measure. 

 

Yes, but according to the above (from Garmin) it sounds like it doesn't read spin at all indoors. Or am I misinterpreting that? 

[jimecherry]

1 hour ago, SE Gamer said:

 

Yes, but according to the above (from Garmin) it sounds like it doesn't read spin at all indoors. Or am I misinterpreting that? 

spin is calculated indoors from a limited ball flight measurement. and i've seen on golfsimulatorforums many accounts of the rct balls improving that measurement.

[Dan13]

5 hours ago, SE Gamer said:

 

Yes, but according to the above (from Garmin) it sounds like it doesn't read spin at all indoors. Or am I misinterpreting that? 

Originally the R10 didn’t measure spin at all. Then updates were made to measure spin outdoors (over a certain ball speed). Then updates were made to measure spin indoors with RCT ball. The response from Garmin seems old and is not reflective of the RCT integration. 

[Garydean]

11 minutes ago, Dan13 said:

Originally the R10 didn’t measure spin at all. Then updates were made to measure spin outdoors (over a certain ball speed). Then updates were made to measure spin indoors with RCT ball. The response from Garmin seems old and is not reflective of the RCT integration. 

From garmins site with rct balls it needs 2 rotations to measure not calculate 

[salmon1man]

22 hours ago, Garydean said:

How is the performance indoors, setup distance and numbers pretty accurate?

Sorry, missed this.  I have been strictly hitting this indoors into my 10 ft net.  With it being 10ft I am able to hit wedges and get those dialed in.  I think the yardages (especially the carry) are extremely accurate.  I do about 10 feet from met to net and maybe 6-8 feet behind me.  it picks up every single shot so far and gives accurate yardages.  I am really happy with it and the metrics (over a dozen) I am getting hitting into a net.

[Garydean]

40 minutes ago, salmon1man said:

Sorry, missed this.  I have been strictly hitting this indoors into my 10 ft net.  With it being 10ft I am able to hit wedges and get those dialed in.  I think the yardages (especially the carry) are extremely accurate.  I do about 10 feet from met to net and maybe 6-8 feet behind me.  it picks up every single shot so far and gives accurate yardages.  I am really happy with it and the metrics (over a dozen) I am getting hitting into a net.

Awesome 10ft isn't a bad distance, definitely seems like its gonna be a solid unit.

[prusd]

1 hour ago, salmon1man said:

Sorry, missed this.  I have been strictly hitting this indoors into my 10 ft net.  With it being 10ft I am able to hit wedges and get those dialed in.  I think the yardages (especially the carry) are extremely accurate.  I do about 10 feet from met to net and maybe 6-8 feet behind me.  it picks up every single shot so far and gives accurate yardages.  I am really happy with it and the metrics (over a dozen) I am getting hitting into a net.

Sounds solid.  And I am assuming you are using the Callaway RPT ball indoors, correct?

[GolfANA]

Does anyone find this device as a huge missed opportunity for Rapsodo? Based on some of the recent videos, the device has a camera that appears to track the club head upon impact which in theory should give it the hardware to measure club path and possibly face to path. Why not have that as part of the $200 subscription package and crush the competition? With those two additional metrics, it’s a no brainer at its current msrp even with the subscription. Without those, it’s battling Garmin R10, SC4 and whatever other lower priced PLM is released with a higher price and an annual subscription.

[salmon1man]

17 hours ago, prusd said:

Sounds solid.  And I am assuming you are using the Callaway RPT ball indoors, correct?

Correct, RPT balls indoors.  I have actually only used them indoors and have not used regular balls.  Probably should to see if there is a huge difference.  I have done about 10 sessions with at least 75 balls each and the balls are still in great condition (only have 3)

 

[SE Gamer]

4 hours ago, GolfANA said:

Does anyone find this device as a huge missed opportunity for Rapsodo? Based on some of the recent videos, the device has a camera that appears to track the club head upon impact which in theory should give it the hardware to measure club path and possibly face to path. Why not have that as part of the $200 subscription package and crush the competition? With those two additional metrics, it’s a no brainer at its current msrp even with the subscription. Without those, it’s battling Garmin R10, SC4 and whatever other lower priced PLM is released with a higher price and an annual subscription.

 

Yep. Said that early on. And theorized that maybe they do have future plans for it. Just haven't worked out the kinks and don't want to release that data until it's right.

[golfun]

Can that camera really track the club head? It looks pretty awful in the videos.(low frame rate skips moment of impact and can't see anything from behind)

[GolfANA]

6 minutes ago, golfun said:

Can that camera really track the club head? It looks pretty awful in the videos.(low frame rate skips moment of impact and can't see anything from behind)

 

Good question. I really dont know. If its not able to, then thats a really bad choice by Rapsodo since I slightly upgraded camera probably would have only been a marginal increase in cost.

[Carolina Golfer 2]

33 minutes ago, golfun said:

Can that camera really track the club head? It looks pretty awful in the videos.(low frame rate skips moment of impact and can't see anything from behind)

It does track it from about 8 to 10 inches before impact to about the same amount post impact.  you can see the club head rotate (if it does) and you can see where impact is...from behind obviously not in front.

[golfun]

1 hour ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

It does track it from about 8 to 10 inches before impact to about the same amount post impact.  you can see the club head rotate (if it does) and you can see where impact is...from behind obviously not in front.

How can it really see the clubface rotate though to any kind of a degree from behind? I would assume it would be crazy inaccurate. 

[GolfANA]

Just now, golfun said:

How can it really see the clubface rotate though to any kind of a degree from behind? I would assume it would be crazy inaccurate. 

Isn’t that how the Mevo + does it? I haven’t heard that the mevo plus is inaccurate when it comes to those measurements.

[Bubbtubbs]

1 minute ago, GolfANA said:

Isn’t that how the Mevo + does it? I haven’t heard that the mevo plus is inaccurate when it comes to those measurements.

TM4 uses basically the same method.

[Dan13]

39 minutes ago, GolfANA said:

Isn’t that how the Mevo + does it? I haven’t heard that the mevo plus is inaccurate when it comes to those measurements.

M+ uses the radar as the primary. Between the club path, horizontal launch and some other measured metrics can get very accurate results - assuming you generally hit it in the center of the face. The camera does support/assist but i believe it plays a pretty minor role in determining face angles. 

[Carolina Golfer 2]

1 hour ago, golfun said:

How can it really see the clubface rotate though to any kind of a degree from behind? I would assume it would be crazy inaccurate. 

It's a super slow motion camera I think 40 Frames Per Second, I can tell you I have hit some not so solid shots where I absoutely saw the face twist wide open, and some solid ones where I saw it rotate closed after impact. 

 

once we are able to show video of it in action, I'll be happy to post a couple. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Carolina Golfer 2

[rlb4]

240 fps video. This video shows it pretty good.

 

[DLiver]

I don't know everyone is crapping all over the impact view feature. We have a local sim that has something similar and it is the most useful data point provided IMO. I mean, its all about what happens at impact, right?