USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[Pnwpingi210]

5 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

But Scotty was 64th in driving accuracy last year when he was 10 yards longer off the tee.  This year, he’s 10 yards shorter, and he’s 10th in driving accuracy. So, it’s exactly what I said, longer and less accurate or shorter and more accurate.  

 

And if Scheffler was able to somehow, someday pull off the feat of being tops in both categories, then wouldn’t mean that he’s exceptional and deserves to be #1? How is that an indictment of the equipment unless all the players are able to excel at both?

 

His strokes gained OTT was higher last year when he was longer and less accurate (last year)

 

 

Edited June 4 by Pnwpingi210

[Golfnutgalen]

Can't believe Rory wasn't mentioned, he's an insane 39th in accuracy this year. We'll see if he can finish the year strong because he was coming off a rather poor season off the tee - 171st last year. His previous best was 2016 77th. 

[Archimedes65]

And even with all these magic clubs and balls, PGA Tour players are still hitting basically the same percentage of greens in regulation that they were 25 years ago.

 

(Cue the pearl clutching crowd whine “but, but, but, the architect…”)

[Golfnutgalen]

Just now, Archimedes65 said:

And even with all these magic clubs and balls, PGA Tour players are still hitting basically the same percentage of greens in regulation that they were 25 years ago.

 

(Cue the pearl clutching crowd whine “but, but, but, the architect…”)

 

Courses are way longer and yet scoring averages continue to fall. 

 

Last year: 70.49

 

10 years prior: 71.16

 

25 years ago (1998) 71.66. 

------------

GIR

Last year: 66.32%

 

10 years prior: 64.08%

 

25 years ago (1998) 64.29%

 

[Archimedes65]

8 minutes ago, Golfnutgalen said:

 

Courses are way longer and yet scoring averages continue to fall. 

 

Last year: 70.49

 

10 years prior: 71.16

 

25 years ago (1998) 71.66. 

------------

GIR

Last year: 66.32%

 

10 years prior: 64.08%

 

25 years ago (1998) 64.29%

 

 

Wow, 1 stroke over 25 years.  By the time we’re all dead, the Tour might be averaging 69.  Horrors!

 

And you’re cherry picking GIR.  It’s fluctuates every year, but stays in a narrow 2% range.  It’s 65.3 this year, and it’s not trending up, it’s fluctuating around a mean.

 

If the equipment is so much better, why aren’t the best players in the world just tearing up these courses?  I mean, physical fitness alone is probably a material percentage of that one stroke improvement.

[mgoblue83]

37 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

But Scotty was 64th in driving accuracy last year when he was 10 yards longer off the tee.  This year, he’s 10 yards shorter, and he’s 10th in driving accuracy. So, it’s exactly what I said, longer and less accurate or shorter and more accurate.  

 

And if Scheffler was able to somehow, someday pull off the feat of being tops in both categories, then wouldn’t mean that he’s exceptional and deserves to be #1? How is that an indictment of the equipment unless all the players are able to excel at both?

 

Please stop hanging your hat on outliers and individual players instead of looking at the overall picture. 

 

It’s highly likely if not guaranteed that the tour average will top 300yds this year for the first time. When you consider that averages take into account older and no longer competitive players it’s insane.

 

Next look at the players who are competitive on a week to week basis (top 50 or so). You might find one or 2 who are less than 170 ball speed and the majority are approaching or above 180mph. Even the modern poster child for “short and accurate” Colin Morikawa is well over 170mph now. Why? Because he knows he can’t compete long term at 165mph because the tour (and game) is just getting longer and longer and longer.
 

 

[Golfnutgalen]

2 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Wow, 1 stroke over 25 years.  By the time we’re all dead, the Tour might be averaging 69.  Horrors!

 

And you’re cherry picking GIR.  It’s fluctuates every year, but stays in a narrow 2% range.  It’s 65.3 this year, and it’s not trending up, it’s fluctuating around a mean.

 

If the equipment is so much better, why aren’t the best players in the world just tearing up these courses?  I mean, physical fitness alone is probably a material percentage of that one stroke improvement.

 

I didn't cherry pick anything, you mentioned 25 years so I stuck with that. I added one from 10 years ago as well because it's a big gap.

 

You acted as if the players haven't done anything, but I showed you they are shooting lower scores on longer courses. 

[chisag]

31 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

@smashdn Thank you for being one of the only voices of reason in this thread but how do you maintain sanity engaging with short hitters who are desperate to keep their 250yd drives at the cost of the future of the game?

 

Every time I come back to this thread it’s the same 2-3 people arguing against every single post even remotely in favor of the rollback without even considering the long term health of the game.

 

 

One word:

Bifurcation 

 

The only solution that protects the future of the high level amateur and professional game (and a huge number of courses) while still letting people like @GoGoErky hit it 235yds at his club where he is somehow the longest hitter and bomb and gouge doesn’t exist.

 

Why it’s not on the table again I have no idea.

 

 

 

... Of course in the end none of their opinions will matter.  They throw words around like "everyone" loves the long ball and doesn't wanna see a ball reduction or bifurcation. 🙄 Maybe in their small little circle but most I talk to want the pro's to play an all round game, not just bomb and gauge. Yes, I think it is great when a few select players can over power the field and if they are on they are tough to beat. John Daley at the PGA in '91 was fun to watch, yet he couldn't repeat it very often. Personally I would rather see a Pro hit a fade with a 4 iron around a tree to birdie range, or carry a bunker with a hybrid from 220 to a tight pin and still stop it on the green. A LW out of deep rough that lands on the fringe killing it and negotiating a green sloping away from them. Or laser mid/long irons on par 4's. Or making every putt in a major. I want it all, and yes that includes long bombs by a a select few with the firepower to carry a bunker at 320 while the rest have to work around it. I just don't wanna watch every player carry that bunker and then hit a wedge. And if the roll back means none can carry it, I am cool both that too considering the course designer didn't put that bunker there with the intention of players carrying it, it is put there as a challenge so you can lay up short or risk a longer drive playing to the side of it. If they wanted it potentially flown, it would be 280-290. 

...  To me the great thing about this game is anyone can play and win if they have certain skills. Short off the tee but deadly around the greens. Long and accurate off the tee but struggle around the green. Low ball hitters playing run up shots and high ball hitters spinning shots back to the flag. Ideally I wanna see the Pro's play just like me, only much better and more consistent. What I want to see is great golf shots:

 

 

[mgoblue83]

7 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Of course in the end none of their opinions will matter.  They throw words around like "everyone" loves the long ball and doesn't wanna see a ball reduction or bifurcation. 🙄 Maybe in their small little circle but most I talk to want the pro's to play an all round game, not just bomb and gauge. Yes, I think it is great when a few select players can over power the field and if they are on they are tough to beat. John Daley at the PGA in '91 was fun to watch, yet he couldn't repeat it very often. Personally I would rather see a Pro hit a fade with a 4 iron around a tree to birdie range, or carry a bunker with a hybrid from 220 to a tight pin and still stop it on the green. A LW out of deep rough that lands on the fringe killing it and negotiating a green sloping away from them. Or laser mid/long irons on par 4's. Or making every putt in a major. I want it all, and yes that includes long bombs by a a select few with the firepower to carry a bunker at 320 while the rest have to work around it. I just don't wanna watch every player carry that bunker and then hit a wedge. And if the roll back means none can carry it, I am cool both that too considering the course designer didn't put that bunker there with the intention of players carrying it, it is put there as a challenge so you can lay up short or risk a longer drive playing to the side of it. If they wanted it potentially flown, it would be 280-290. 

...  To me the great thing about this game is anyone can play and win if they have certain skills. Short off the tee but deadly around the greens. Long and accurate off the tee but struggle around the green. Low ball hitters playing run up shots and high ball hitters spinning shots back to the flag. Ideally I wanna see the Pro's play just like me, only much better and more consistent. What I want to see is great golf shots:

 

 

Exactly. When the entire field is playing bomb and gouge there is a problem and not only is it boring to watch but it makes so many great golf courses obsolete.

 

Equipment (driver and ball) has made it increasingly unlikely we will ever see another Daly or Tiger who are capable of doing things nobody else can do. 
 

Scottie as an example is clearly the best player in the world but he’s the modern day equivalent of someone like Nick Faldo. Good to great at everything but petty boring to watch and doesn’t stand out among his peers in anything except consistency. 

[Archimedes65]

2 hours ago, Golfnutgalen said:

 

I didn't cherry pick anything, you mentioned 25 years so I stuck with that. I added one from 10 years ago as well because it's a big gap.

 

You acted as if the players haven't done anything, but I showed you they are shooting lower scores on longer courses. 

 

😂  They’re 1 stroke better over 25 years.  And it doesn’t appear to be mostly due to playing any better tee to green, because they’re not hitting any more greens than they did 25 years ago.

 

The courses have kept up, the game is fine, the exclusionists just want what they always want.  Control and exclusion.  And the sport of golf as an institution has been excelling at that for over 100 years.  Why stop now?

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

Exactly. When the entire field is playing bomb and gouge there is a problem and not only is it boring to watch but it makes so many great golf courses obsolete.

 

Equipment (driver and ball) has made it increasingly unlikely we will ever see another Daly or Tiger who are capable of doing things nobody else can do. 
 

Scottie as an example is clearly the best player in the world but he’s the modern day equivalent of someone like Nick Faldo. Good to great at everything but petty boring to watch and doesn’t stand out among his peers in anything except consistency. 

 

Do you guys just repeat ‘bomb and gouge’ and ‘courses are obsolete’ in front of the mirror every morning?  Just because you say something over and over again, doesn’t make it truth.

 

And as regards boring, the most exciting tournament so far this year in the eyes of the vast majority of golf fans was held at an ‘obsolete course’ that the Tour tore up (largely due to conditions).  Your opinions represent a teeny tiny minority of golf fans.  If the powers that be actually listened to their fans, and even to most of the pros, there would be no rollback of the ball, for pros or amateurs.

[Archimedes65]

2 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

Please stop hanging your hat on outliers and individual players instead of looking at the overall picture. 

 

It’s highly likely if not guaranteed that the tour average will top 300yds this year for the first time. When you consider that averages take into account older and no longer competitive players it’s insane.

 

Next look at the players who are competitive on a week to week basis (top 50 or so). You might find one or 2 who are less than 170 ball speed and the majority are approaching or above 180mph. Even the modern poster child for “short and accurate” Colin Morikawa is well over 170mph now. Why? Because he knows he can’t compete long term at 165mph because the tour (and game) is just getting longer and longer and longer.
 

 

 

Why should someone who’s not strong enough or athletic enough to drive the ball at or above the Tour average have any chance of winning?  You think that golf should be adjusting the equipment so that the smaller, weaker player can be competitive?  What other sport has EVER done that in the history of EVER?

[kiwigolf72]

Two of the biggest threads are this one and LIV.

Newsflash both are happening get over it all ready.

[Archimedes65]

Funny thing is, Tiger was the ORIGINAL bomber and gouger.  What’d he do for the game…

 

Maybe they should have been rolling things back so Fred Funk could have competed with Tiger.  You know, so golf would be interesting… 

[kiwigolf72]

1 minute ago, Archimedes65 said:

Funny thing is, Tiger was the ORIGINAL bomber and gouger.  What’d he do for the game…

 

Maybe they should have been rolling things back so Fred Funk could have competed with Tiger.  You know, so golf would be interesting… 

maybe time for lie down?

[Archimedes65]

1 minute ago, kiwigolf72 said:

Two of the biggest threads are this one and LIV.

Newsflash both are happening get over it all ready.

 

LIV will eventually go away, and I don’t think we’ve heard the last of the equipment debate.  My guess is this is going to be an ongoing battle between the manufacturers and the USGA.  The manufacturers have already talked about evolving their equipment to offset the ball loss.  We’re far from hearing the last word on this.

[kiwigolf72]

4 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

LIV will eventually go away, and I don’t think we’ve heard the last of the equipment debate.  My guess is this is going to be an ongoing battle between the manufacturers and the USGA.  The manufacturers have already talked about evolving their equipment to offset the ball loss.  We’re far from hearing the last word on this.

you keep preaching from your soapbox, someone might eventually listen

[chisag]

39 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

maybe time for lie down?

 

 

... This can be an interesting topic when you respect others opinions. Some it seems are here to be condescending of any opinions but their own. I have no problem at all with someone that loves the current PGA Tour game, hates the idea of a rollback and is unhappy with the USGA. I disagree with them, but respect their opinions because we are all golfers that love the game and we can have strong opinions. 

[clevited]

1 hour ago, kiwigolf72 said:

you keep preaching from your soapbox, someone might eventually listen

 

He isn't wrong though.  Also, everyone in here is preaching from a "soap box".  

[clevited]

27 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... This can be an interesting topic when you respect others opinions. Some it seems are here to be condescending of any opinions but their own. I have no problem at all with someone that loves the current PGA Tour game, hates the idea of a rollback and is unhappy with the USGA. I disagree with them, but respect their opinions because we are all golfers that love the game and we can have strong opinions. 

 

Condescention is more of the reader's interpretation than anything else.  

 

In other words, it isn't condescending unless you choose to view it that way.

Edited June 5 by clevited

[GoGoErky]

10 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

@smashdn Thank you for being one of the only voices of reason in this thread but how do you maintain sanity engaging with short hitters who are desperate to keep their 250yd drives at the cost of the future of the game?

 

Every time I come back to this thread it’s the same 2-3 people arguing against every single post even remotely in favor of the rollback without even considering the long term health of the game.

 

 

One word:

Bifurcation 

 

The only solution that protects the future of the high level amateur and professional game (and a huge number of courses) while still letting people like @GoGoErky hit it 235yds at his club where he is somehow the longest hitter and bomb and gouge doesn’t exist.

 

Why it’s not on the table again I have no idea.

 

 

9 hours ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Of course in the end none of their opinions will matter.  They throw words around like "everyone" loves the long ball and doesn't wanna see a ball reduction or bifurcation. 🙄 Maybe in their small little circle but most I talk to want the pro's to play an all round game, not just bomb and gauge. Yes, I think it is great when a few select players can over power the field and if they are on they are tough to beat. John Daley at the PGA in '91 was fun to watch, yet he couldn't repeat it very often. Personally I would rather see a Pro hit a fade with a 4 iron around a tree to birdie range, or carry a bunker with a hybrid from 220 to a tight pin and still stop it on the green. A LW out of deep rough that lands on the fringe killing it and negotiating a green sloping away from them. Or laser mid/long irons on par 4's. Or making every putt in a major. I want it all, and yes that includes long bombs by a a select few with the firepower to carry a bunker at 320 while the rest have to work around it. I just don't wanna watch every player carry that bunker and then hit a wedge. And if the roll back means none can carry it, I am cool both that too considering the course designer didn't put that bunker there with the intention of players carrying it, it is put there as a challenge so you can lay up short or risk a longer drive playing to the side of it. If they wanted it potentially flown, it would be 280-290. 

...  To me the great thing about this game is anyone can play and win if they have certain skills. Short off the tee but deadly around the greens. Long and accurate off the tee but struggle around the green. Low ball hitters playing run up shots and high ball hitters spinning shots back to the flag. Ideally I wanna see the Pro's play just like me, only much better and more consistent. What I want to see is great golf shots:

 

 

 

6 hours ago, chisag said:

 

 

... This can be an interesting topic when you respect others opinions. Some it seems are here to be condescending of any opinions but their own. I have no problem at all with someone that loves the current PGA Tour game, hates the idea of a rollback and is unhappy with the USGA. I disagree with them, but respect their opinions because we are all golfers that love the game and we can have strong opinions. 

You mean like the tow quoted posts and a ton more form the pro rolbakc side spreads throughout this thread.

 

one side has been condescending, taken pot shots at members and typically presenting opinion with no data or coming out data that has been shown in the thread to be incorrect or cherry picked.

 

[mgoblue83]

8 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Why should someone who’s not strong enough or athletic enough to drive the ball at or above the Tour average have any chance of winning?  You think that golf should be adjusting the equipment so that the smaller, weaker player can be competitive?  What other sport has EVER done that in the history of EVER?

 

That is the exact opposite of what we are saying. We WANT the ability for someone to stand out in an unbelievably impressive way (Nicklaus, Palmer, Daly, Woods..) by doing things that nobody else can do. Right now it's impossible because of how forgiving the equipment is and even the short hitters on tour are hitting it over 300yds.

[GoGoErky]

or maybe we just have a lot more of those types of golfers now because if the money and the number of athletic golfers who have chosen to make that their profession over another sport, some have deeper fields with more talent and have reached parity in golf.

 

More people with a chance to win is a good thing for golf.

 

Dynasties and that one or two greats in any sport these days no longer exists.

 

Procession in a sport isn’t a bad thing except maybe for those hung up on nostalgia 

[smashdn]

13 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

@smashdn Thank you for being one of the only voices of reason in this thread but how do you maintain sanity engaging with short hitters who are desperate to keep their 250yd drives at the cost of the future of the game?

 

Honestly, I discovered the ignore feature here last week.  Had to put my first person on ignore.  That particular person has a tendency to follow me around the forums and put a confusing emoji on nearly all my posts.  If you can't understand what I post, why would I bother to engage with you?   I long ago gave up responding to that person.  Now I don't even have to read what they type unless someone else quotes them.

 

There are a few others that I just generally ignore anyway.  I have found I just don't respond to their questions any longer as it is just not a fruitful conversation and is typically an attempt to head down some avenue not germane to the topic at hand.

 

I am sure some people feel the same with me too.

 

When I stated here that I might not even believe what I was suggesting that really burnt their biscuits.  They couldn't accept that someone might present a counterargument to their stance that could be valid and yet not actually want that counterargument.

 

As far as not accepting what I think is the right thing regarding a roll back, children don't like taking medicine or being made to eat their vegetables either.  Not to go political, but the right things needing to be done are not always the ones that make us feel good in the short term.

 

 

13 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

One word:

Bifurcation 

 

I thought that was a fine idea.  It would mean those 250 yard drivers accepting that they wouldn't be playing the same equipment as the professionals.  I know I don't play the same equipment so it was never a stumbling block for me.

 

13 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

The only solution that protects the future of the high level amateur and professional game (and a huge number of courses) while still letting people like@GoGoErky hit it 235yds at his club where he is somehow the longest hitter and bomb and gouge doesn’t exist.

 

Why it’s not on the table again I have no idea.

 

 

[gvogel]

13 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Wow, 1 stroke over 25 years.  By the time we’re all dead, the Tour might be averaging 69.  Horrors!

 

And you’re cherry picking GIR.  It’s fluctuates every year, but stays in a narrow 2% range.  It’s 65.3 this year, and it’s not trending up, it’s fluctuating around a mean.

 

If the equipment is so much better, why aren’t the best players in the world just tearing up these courses?  I mean, physical fitness alone is probably a material percentage of that one stroke improvement.

Scoring can be made more difficult by fast green speeds and hiding the pins.  Also growing rough.  But you knew that already.

[GoGoErky]

1 minute ago, gvogel said:

Scoring can be made more difficult by fast green speeds and hiding the pins.  Also growing rough.  But you knew that already.

And the tour setups courses to make scoring easier but you knew that already.

[Titleist99]

11 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

Funny thing is, Tiger was the ORIGINAL bomber and gouger.  What’d he do for the game…

 

Maybe they should have been rolling things back so Fred Funk could have competed with Tiger.  You know, so golf would be interesting… 

LOL! ........ Tiger was bombing it over 300 yards in his prime, but it has to be said that he was more entertaining when he was scrambling though. Tiger proofing didn't work because longer courses helps the long hitters more. (see ANGC)

 

P.S.  Back then I never heard Tiger say, "I hit the ball too far, maybe we should have a rollback."

 

John Daly, Bubba, Hank Kuehne, etc.... was all bombing it off the tee. The sky wasn't falling then and it's not falling now.

[Simpsonia]

16 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

One word:

Bifurcation 

 

 

 

The USGA dropped the idea of bifurcation for many reasons, but ultimately found too many problems to continue with it. What would you do to solve the myriad of issues around bifurcation?

1. No buy-in from OEM stakeholders
2. No buy-in from Tour stakeholders
3. Worries about buy-in from non PGAT/Korn Ferry competition stakeholders
   1. Mike Whan stated that there was a huge amount of concern about where the so-called "line in the sand" would be drawn for elite male competitions. Does this encompass state Ams? Local and regional Ams? Collegiate, if so, D1, D2, D3? High School? Club Comps? 
   2. If so, how is the MLR enforced? Most non-PGAT tournaments don't really have the same level of resources to enforce or investigate infractions.
   3. Cheating is rife in pretty much every type of tournament below D1 or D2 collegiate (seriously just read the Jr forums to see how much happens). How do you enforce when you know cheating is already fairly rampant as is? 
   4. Address the USGA's biggest concern that huge swaths of the these smaller non-PGAT tournament organizers would elect NOT to use the MLR for all of the above reasons leading to patchwork of adopters and non-adopters that just turns to chaos. 

 

Anyone who has ever worked in the corporate world knows that you need stakeholder buy-in to enact large scale changes, especially when they are targeted (rather than broad like the current proposal) at those specific stakeholders. It's a lot easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar, etc etc. 

 

 

[mgoblue83]

10 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

The USGA dropped the idea of bifurcation for many reasons, but ultimately found too many problems to continue with it. What would you do to solve the myriad of issues around bifurcation?

1. No buy-in from OEM stakeholders
2. No buy-in from Tour stakeholders
3. Worries about buy-in from non PGAT/Korn Ferry competition stakeholders
   1. Mike Whan stated that there was a huge amount of concern about where the so-called "line in the sand" would be drawn for elite male competitions. Does this encompass state Ams? Local and regional Ams? Collegiate, if so, D1, D2, D3? High School? Club Comps? 
   2. If so, how is the MLR enforced? Most non-PGAT tournaments don't really have the same level of resources to enforce or investigate infractions.
   3. Cheating is rife in pretty much every type of tournament below D1 or D2 collegiate (seriously just read the Jr forums to see how much happens). How do you enforce when you know cheating is already fairly rampant as is? 
   4. Address the USGA's biggest concern that huge swaths of the these smaller non-PGAT tournament organizers would elect NOT to use the MLR for all of the above reasons leading to patchwork of adopters and non-adopters that just turns to chaos. 

 

Anyone who has ever worked in the corporate world knows that you need stakeholder buy-in to enact large scale changes, especially when they are targeted (rather than broad like the current proposal) at those specific stakeholders. It's a lot easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar, etc etc. 

 

 

 

 

The easiest solution is what baseball does.

 

Professionals under the MLB umbrella play wooden bats with no exceptions. Everyone else can play whatever they want. 

 

For golf it would look exactly the same. PGA Tour, Champions Tour and all feeder tours like KFT play a reduced flight and increased spin golf ball. Everyone else including college and amateurs play whatever they want. 

 

This way you don't even have to touch equipment. All done through the ball. 

 

The current ball changes are not enough for pros and are clearly a point of contention for amateurs.

 

With bifurcation amateurs aren't even touched while the pro ball can be rolled back even farther than the current proposal.

 

 

Edited June 5 by mgoblue83

[Simpsonia]

12 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

 

The easiest solution is what baseball does.

 

Professionals under the MLB umbrella play wooden bats with no exceptions. Everyone else can play whatever they want. 

 

For golf it would look exactly the same. PGA Tour, Champions Tour and all feeder tours like KFT play a reduced flight and increased spin golf ball. Everyone else including college and amateurs play whatever they want. 

 

This way you don't even have to touch equipment. All done through the ball. 

 

The current ball changes are not enough for pros and are clearly a point of contention for amateurs.

 

With bifurcation amateurs aren't even touched while the pro ball can be rolled back even farther than the current proposal.

 

 

 

That doesn't address any of the issues I've raised though. MLB rules are handed down by the MLB itself. If you're playing, you're playing under their rules. With golf, the PGAT is only loosely affiliated with the USGA, and there's no direct enforcement abilities whatsoever. The PGAT already spoke out against the MLR, likely leading to a situation where the PGAT tells the USGA to pound sand and will keep using whatever balls they want, regardless of the MLR. How does the USGA tell the PGAT that they and only they will be abiding by a new rule that they have already said they don't want to adopt? Again, this all goes back to buy-in from stakeholders. 

 

The most dangerous thing a governing body can do is something that causes it to be ignored, as it will soon be ignored by more and more and more until they are completely irrelevant. 

 

Second, if you exempt amateur tournaments, are you exempting the USGA's own flagship tournaments from the MLR ball rules, such as the US Open (open to amateurs), or the US Am, US Mid-Am, US Jr Am? Are those not elite male competitions? 

Edited June 5 by Simpsonia