Unofficial "Combo" Tees

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Q. Can I manually enter the Course Rating™, Slope Rating™,and par for a course I played?

A. You should always use the published rating information when available, and the vast majority of courses and tees have been rated for both genders by the Allied Golf Association. However, there may be times when you must manually enter the course information in order to post a score, including when:

• The set of tees has not been rated for your gender, or
• The round was played outside of the United States and a course search does not find the course played

In these cases, you should first reach out to the club and/or Golf Association in the area to obtain the Rating information. At that point, you can manually enter the Course Rating, Slope Rating, and par along with the score details. If no Course Rating, Slope Rating, and par can be determined, the score will not be acceptable for handicap purposes.

If you are playing a set of tees that is not rated for your gender, the club representative in consultation with the Allied Golf Association can determine if a temporary Course Rating and Slope Rating can be created to post your score by utilizing the table found in Appendix G of the Rules of Handicapping.

Manually entering the Rating information and par should be considered a last resort, since doing so will result in the score not contributing to the playing conditions calculation data pool as it would not be identified with any particular course.

Which provides clear support for the notion that playing a whimsical mashup of various tees and forming your own on course committee to come up with an invalid “rating” for the unrated “course” you played isn’t within the contemplation of the ROG. 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Which provides clear support for the notion that playing a whimsical mashup of various tees and forming your own on course committee to come up with an invalid “rating” for the unrated “course” you played isn’t within the contemplation of the ROG.

 

I disagree with your reading of that, as have the people at AGAs and the USGA with whom I've talked about this. I think we even talked about it at a USGA national meeting for course raters at one point.

 

That article says that you should endeavor to post a round, even when:

• Tees are not rated for your gender.
• You play outside of the United States.

If you play your own combo of blue/white tees, they're both rated for your gender (probably), and it's within the U.S.

 

6 hours ago, Newby said:

In these cases, you should first reach out to the club and/or Golf Association in the area to obtain the Rating information. At that point, you can manually enter the Course Rating, Slope Rating, and par along with the score details. If no Course Rating, Slope Rating, and par can be determined, the score will not be acceptable for handicap purposes.

 

You can determine a course rating and slope.

 

6 hours ago, Newby said:

If you are playing a set of tees that is not rated for your gender, the club representative in consultation with the Allied Golf Association can determine if a temporary Course Rating and Slope Rating can be created to post your score by utilizing the table found in Appendix G of the Rules of Handicapping.

 

You don't even have to get that far as the blue/white tee combo are both rated for you, and they're saying that you can still post a round even if the tees aren't rated for you by applying that table.

 

Like I said, when I put together a combo set of tees for my daughter, nobody I talked to implied that I was doing anything funny. Many actually acted like "duh, of course that's what you do, why are you bothering to ask?"

 

She continues to do this as she posts rounds played in college - they'll often play courses at 5900 yards or something where the nearest set of tees is 6123 and they play four or five holes up a tee or something.

 

I'll reach out to someone to specifically ask them this question. But I think I know what it'll be… the USGA wants people to post rounds, and if you play one 276-yard par four at 378 or a 478-yard par four at 365 because you can't carry a pond from the 478-yard tees… I don't think most are going to say "no, your round is invalid, sorry. Don't post it."

 

On 6/14/2023 at 12:16 PM, DaveLeeNC said:

Treating the hole as a hole not played and taking par plus strokes seems reasonable (not the same as correct). 

 

This is also an option if you're doing this to only a few holes. But if you do this to five holes, you've not played 14 holes.

Edited July 22, 2023 by iacas

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

I disagree with your reading of that, as have the people at AGAs and the USGA with whom I've talked about this. I think we even talked about it at a USGA national meeting for course raters at one point.

 

That article says that you should endeavor to post a round, even when:

• Tees are not rated for your gender.
• You play outside of the United States.

If you play your own combo of blue/white tees, they're both rated for your gender (probably), and it's within the U.S.

 

 

You can determine a course rating and slope.

 

 

You don't even have to get that far as the blue/white tee combo are both rated for you, and they're saying that you can still post a round even if the tees aren't rated for you by applying that table.

 

Like I said, when I put together a combo set of tees for my daughter, nobody I talked to implied that I was doing anything funny. Many actually acted like "duh, of course that's what you do, why are you bothering to ask?"

 

She continues to do this as she posts rounds played in college - they'll often play courses at 5900 yards or something where the nearest set of tees is 6123 and they play four or five holes up a tee or something.

 

I'll reach out to someone to specifically ask them this question. But I think I know what it'll be… the USGA wants people to post rounds, and if you play one 276-yard par four at 378 or a 478-yard par four at 365 because you can't carry a pond from the 478-yard tees… I don't think most are going to say "no, your round is invalid, sorry. Don't post it."

 

 

This is also an option if you're doing this to only a few holes. But if you do this to five holes, you've not played 14 holes.

I hear you but think there is a difference between the very limited situation you had and posit and something way more general and for no particular reason. They always want scores posted ……. when the proper preconditions for posting are met. Always interested to see their take. 

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I hear you but think there is a difference between the very limited situation you had and posit and something way more general and for no particular reason. They always want scores posted ……. when the proper preconditions for posting are met. Always interested to see their take. 

 

I understand, as well, that the USGA doesn't want people just making up their own course ratings all the time, either. He has said only "I think the answer is still what I told you a few years ago: go ahead and post the adjusted round using those charts. But I'll ask my contact what he thinks, too, and let you know." His contact is at the USGA directly, so… maybe I'll find out what they say now (the last time I'd asked was a little before the WHS was released, as my daughter graduated HS in 2021).

[Newby]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

 

You can determine a course rating and slope.

 

How can you determine a Course Rating without the detailed data (collected/recorded by the rating team) from the individual holes for the tee(s) chosen?

Obstacles which are in a target area from the blue tee may not be in the target area from the red tee.

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, Newby said:

How can you determine a Course Rating without the detailed data (collected/recorded by the rating team) from the individual holes for the tee(s) chosen?

Obstacles which are in a target area from the blue tee may not be in the target area from the red tee.

 

Using the chart.

 

Obstacles don't matter as much as you may think. The vast majority of the rating/slope is just length, which is why those charts work pretty well.

[ThinkingPlus]

20 minutes ago, Newby said:

How can you determine a Course Rating without the detailed data (collected/recorded by the rating team) from the individual holes for the tee(s) chosen?

Obstacles which are in a target area from the blue tee may not be in the target area from the red tee.

The USGA has a lookup table based on yardage difference alone. Less than 100 yard total difference, you use the standard rating/slope. Between 100 yards and 300 yards total difference, you adjust rating/slope per lookup table. Greater than 300 yards you are SOL posting and must contact the course and state association,  and request a rating be performed for the set of tees or combo tee you played or would like to create.

 

Back when the lookup table covered all yardage deltas, I did this process all the time. I played many courses/tees not rated for women. Once I did the adjustment, I saved the info in my own spreadsheet to make it easier. Now that more tees are rated for women and I'm old (can't play much beyond 6000 yards), it has become a non-issue for me.

[Newby]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Using the chart.

 

Obstacles don't matter as much as you may think. The vast majority of the rating/slope is just length, which is why those charts work pretty well.

I don't know what those charts are. 

However, I was until I retired recently, the Rating Team Manager for my Regional Golf Association and we do have a formula for allocating a temporary CR, BR & Slope for tees we can't rate in the off season eg. The formula is not published so individual players cannot use it for combo holes. As it happens I'm not aware of any requirement over here.

The formula is based primarily based on length of course.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Newby

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Newby said:

I don't know what those charts are.

 

The ones in Appendix G for the Rules of Handicapping. A picture was literally in the second post in this topic.

 

Also, I heard back:

• The rounds are valid and should be entered.
• Everyone will want to revisit this topic in 2024. 😉

[Augster]

This chart. 
 

[Hawkeye77]

On 7/23/2023 at 7:44 AM, iacas said:

 

The ones in Appendix G for the Rules of Handicapping. A picture was literally in the second post in this topic.

 

Also, I heard back:

• The rounds are valid and should be entered.
• Everyone will want to revisit this topic in 2024. 😉

Then I'll await whatever amendment or clarification we get!

[iacas]

21 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Then I'll await whatever amendment or clarification we get!

 

No need. Talked to some people at the US Am qualifier on Monday. They all said to use the chart and post the scores.

[Hawkeye77]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

 

No need. Talked to some people at the US Am qualifier on Monday. They all said to use the chart and post the scores.

Even greater than 300 yards?

[iacas]

56 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Even greater than 300 yards?

 

No. The chart only goes from 100 to 300 yards. Odds seem small to me that two sets of tees are going to be ≤ 600 yards apart from one another (so a combo set is going to be within 300 yards of one of them).

[ThinkingPlus]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

No. The chart only goes from 100 to 300 yards. Odds seem small to me that two sets of tees are going to be ≤ 600 yards apart from one another (so a combo set is going to be within 300 yards of one of them).

Probably more often true today, but I played lots of mid-6000 tees back in my younger years where the nearest rated tees for women were mid to low 5000s. Good thing I have that math degree! LOL.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Probably more often true today, but I played lots of mid-6000 tees back in my younger years where the nearest rated tees for women were mid to low 5000s. Good thing I have that math degree! LOL.

 

Yes, for a long time, women were often not considered as they should have been. Though things are better today, we still have a ways to go.

[larrybud]

On 7/23/2023 at 3:37 AM, Newby said:

I don't know what those charts are. 

However, I was until I retired recently, the Rating Team Manager for my Regional Golf Association and we do have a formula for allocating a temporary CR, BR & Slope for tees we can't rate in the off season eg. The formula is not published so individual players cannot use it for combo holes. As it happens I'm not aware of any requirement over here.

The formula is based primarily based on length of course.

 

The formula is published, it's right here:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix G Golf Course Course Rating Slope Rating.htm

[Newby]

2 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

The formula is published, it's right here:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix G Golf Course Course Rating Slope Rating.htm

That is simply Appendix G. It is not the formula we use for temporary ratings.

I'm afraid I cannot publish it as it is restricted to authorised rating managers. I have retired as a rating manager but was given the formula when I was appointed.

[iacas]

8 hours ago, Newby said:

it is restricted to authorised rating managers.

 

It is not. Again, I've talked with a number of administrators and so on at the USGA and a few AGAs, and they have all said to use the chart when you play a mixed set of tees, etc.

 

Perhaps it's a bit different in the UK, but… since it's all the WHS, I don't think it's all that different if it is at all.

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by iacas

[Newby]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

 

It is not. Again, I've talked with a number of administrators and so on at the USGA and a few AGAs, and they have all said to use the chart when you play a mixed set of tees, etc.

 

Perhaps it's a bit different in the UK, but… since it's all the WHS, I don't think it's all that different if it is at all.

 

 

I stress again, it is not the chart in Appendix G or are you referring to a different chart?

However, we do/did use a formula not a chart.

eg xx/yy + zz - aa   ............

Edited July 28, 2023 by Newby

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

I stress again, it is not the chart in Appendix G or are you referring to a different chart?

However, we do/did use a formula not a chart.

eg xx/yy + zz - aa   ............

 

I have been told repeatedly and consistently that the chart cited and linked to many times (that chart in Appendix G) can be and should be used by golfers who play a mixed set of tees, like my daughter who played white tees on all but six holes to get to the desired yardage, or like the golfers who started this whole discussion.

[Newby]

Apologies folks. I have been thinking about temporary ratings for new tees rather than temporary combos of rated tees.

I believe the latter concept is very rare in England. In fact I am not aware of any occasions it has been used. General Play scores are relatively recent in CONGUland and our previous system was very tight on pre-registration and post validation. Now there is a proliferation of Apps which have been very week in those aspects and the number of recorded gp scores has ballooned. So it might well result in combo rounds being used

I do notice Clause f(i) see in Appendix G which mandates certain conditions and would ask @iacas if those are enforced in practice. 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

I do notice Clause f(i) see in Appendix G which mandates certain conditions and would ask @iacas if those are enforced in practice. 

 

The charts and language are written for courses that need to temporarily change their course, say, to do work on a tee box or something and shorten a few holes… or whatever. That way the course, for a month or whatever, issue a temporary rating that all people will use through their GHIN app or whatever app they use to enter scores. Without doing anything manually.

 

But, the charts can be used by people playing combo tees. That's been the whole discussion, as I see it.

[Newby]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

The charts and language are written for courses that need to temporarily change their course, say, to do work on a tee box or something and shorten a few holes… or whatever. That way the course, for a month or whatever, issue a temporary rating that all people will use through their GHIN app or whatever app they use to enter scores. Without doing anything manually.

 

But, the charts can be used by people playing combo tees. That's been the whole discussion, as I see it.

Thanks.

I'm not challenging the advice you have been given by various officials and am quite happy to advise others in similar situations but have you been given or seen anything more formal?

[nsxguy]

On 7/27/2023 at 12:47 PM, Newby said:

That is simply Appendix G. It is not the formula we use for temporary ratings.

I'm afraid I cannot publish it as it is restricted to authorised rating managers. I have retired as a rating manager but was given the formula when I was appointed.

 

8 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I have been told repeatedly and consistently that the chart cited and linked to many times (that chart in Appendix G) can be and should be used by golfers who play a mixed set of tees, like my daughter who played white tees on all but six holes to get to the desired yardage, or like the golfers who started this whole discussion.

 

Excuse me but

 

a) newby is from the UK.

 

and

 

b) he is talking about the rating instructions he previously used to rate courses, NOT Appendix G

[Newby]

4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Excuse me but

 

a) newby is from the UK.

 

and

 

b) he is talking about the rating instructions he previously used to rate courses, NOT Appendix G

The above is correct but I erroneously conflated two slightly (?) different topics.

I am happy with Erik's explanation.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Newby

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, Newby said:

The above is correct but I erroneously conflated two slightly (?) different topics.

I am happy with Erik's explanation.

 

No worries, I have a couple of questions to Erik. 👍

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

The charts and language are written for courses that need to temporarily change their course, say, to do work on a tee box or something and shorten a few holes… or whatever. That way the course, for a month or whatever, issue a temporary rating that all people will use through their GHIN app or whatever app they use to enter scores. Without doing anything manually.

 

But, the charts can be used by people playing combo tees. That's been the whole discussion, as I see it.

 

Well, that certainly IS the discussion point from the original topic.

 

Appendix G  clearly says "Temporary Changes" and describes such situations and changes made by the course.

 

However, the original post is talking about someone changing a single hole simply because he doesn't like it, NOT the course changing one or more holes.

 

So I would ask if that was covered by your discussion(s) and is it the case that any player/group can make any change to any # of hole lengths and, as long as they do it via the table in App G, it is perfectly acceptable to post the scores (manually of course) ?

 

At least until Jan, 2024 ?

 

TIA 👍

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

So I would ask if that was covered by your discussion(s) and is it the case that any player/group can make any change to any # of hole lengths and, as long as they do it via the table in App G, it is perfectly acceptable to post the scores (manually of course)?

 

Again… yes.