Unofficial "Combo" Tees

[nsxguy]

7 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Imagine a Handicap Committee trying to verify score posting when each player can play any combination of holes he chooses, and calculate the CR and Slope for that particular combination.  Looking at the opinions expressed in this and other threads, that's not an unrealistic concern.  Imagine the outcry if the player is REQUIRED to identify not just the set of tees he played today, but which tee he played on each and every hole.  I'm happy that the records are maintained at the Association level, I'm happy that a course (or Committee) can fairly easily provide a standardized combo tee set, I see no reason that the Scratch and Bogey rating for each hole and each tee easily available to every single golfer.

 

Reading your post, I can't be sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing.

 

Surely you didn't take my post as suggesting that the players should be permitted, on any given round, to produce any rating/slope they wanted to, and post same, right ?

 

I was merely suggesting these combos could be taken up by the course, if they saw a need to.

 

And that the data likely would be easily available, as I believe you yourself suggested - as opposed to downloading a huge database.

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough - or misunderstood your post.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

Surely you didn't take my post as suggesting that the players should be permitted, on any given round, to produce any rating/slope they wanted to, and post same, right ?

 

I was merely suggesting these combos could be taken up by the course, if they saw a need to.

An important part of the process is adding any combo set ratings to the national ratings database, so that it shows up in GHIN when a player is posting their scores.  That process is the responsibility of the state or regional Association, not the individual course.  Based on that, I believe the course should define the tees used for each combo set, based on yardages and difficulties, and let the Association do the calculations, I don't think the course has any need for the hole by hole ratings.

 

But yeah, in my mind I was thinking about having the Scratch and Bogey Ratings be available to all golfers for every tee, that's really unnecessary.

[Naptime]

Since golf holes are independent events, playing forward tees on hole 7 has no impact on the score for hole 8 from the back tees.  In the computer age should be simple to assign a yardage, rating and slope for any combination of tees for 18 holes. No need to print score cards for every combo.  I know some courses where there are holes that are more interesting from the back tees without being impossible shots.  But playing the whole course from the back would be morning at my index.  It would add some variety and fun.  

[Newby]

36 minutes ago, Naptime said:

Since golf holes are independent events, playing forward tees on hole 7 has no impact on the score for hole 8 from the back tees.  In the computer age should be simple to assign a yardage, rating and slope for any combination of tees for 18 holes. No need to print score cards for every combo.  I know some courses where there are holes that are more interesting from the back tees without being impossible shots.  But playing the whole course from the back would be morning at my index.  It would add some variety and fun.  

The desire may well be achievable because the data is there. However the practicality of any player choosing any combination of holes makes the management virtually impossible. If my maths is is right, You would need 108 cards for 3 optional tees and 432 for 4 optional tees.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

I cannot understand this discussion is still going on...

 

If you want to play another teeing area then play it !!! There is nobody in the world interested in that!!!

[Augster]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

I cannot understand this discussion is still going on...

 

If you want to play another teeing area then play it !!! There is nobody in the world interested in that!!!

Right. 
 

But in the US, we all want to post our “fun” rounds. 
 

In the digital age, the course wouldn’t have to produce different cards. 
 

We have 3 tee boxes, Black, Blue, and white. I’m a male. Inside the GHIN app, I’d assume, they should have hole by hole course rating and slope. So if I wanted to play some on white, some on blue, and some on black, in a given round, I should be able to just put in my score for each hole and tell the app what tee I played on that hole. 
 

Then, at the end of the round, it’d add up all the ratings and slopes and spit out a CR/Slope and differential for my round and go into my scoring record. 
 

After the posting season is done, we play a game called the “ladder game”. If you make a net birdie you move back a set, if you make a net bogey you move up a set. We don’t play it during the season because it’d be too big a PITA to figure out the CR/Slope. 
 

But if the app already had that info, and we could post scores with it, we’d certainly play it once in a while during the posting season. 
 

Seems like an oversight to me. 

[DaveLeeNC]

On 6/14/2023 at 9:26 PM, DaveLeeNC said:

Since this is something that the club is doing, I would suggest that you use the table that you referenced (by @vandyfan) and post the score using the "Manually Post Total Score" option that you see on Ghin using a browser. This will allow you to input your own (adjusted) slope and rating. I would suggest that you name it "My Course Adjusted" or something like that. 

 

On 6/15/2023 at 8:27 AM, davep043 said:

I'd take the other approach, I'd look at this as a hole not played, and record par (5) plus any applicable handicap strokes.  This hole has essentially been taken out of play by the course management (Committee).  

 

In looking at the table referenced I notice that it 'ends' at 300 yards and this change is probably larger than that. The advice for changes in excess of 300 yards is to "contact your Authorized Association". So my advice to "use the table" is really advice to contact your Authorized Association (Carolinas Golf in my case). 

 

I agree that the hole has essentially been taken out of play by the course management so treating it as a hole not played is (IMHO) quite reasonable. 

 

dave

[jcook10]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

Right. 
 

But in the US, we all want to post our “fun” rounds. 
 

In the digital age, the course wouldn’t have to produce different cards. 
 

We have 3 tee boxes, Black, Blue, and white. I’m a male. Inside the GHIN app, I’d assume, they should have hole by hole course rating and slope. So if I wanted to play some on white, some on blue, and some on black, in a given round, I should be able to just put in my score for each hole and tell the app what tee I played on that hole. 
 

Then, at the end of the round, it’d add up all the ratings and slopes and spit out a CR/Slope and differential for my round and go into my scoring record. 
 

After the posting season is done, we play a game called the “ladder game”. If you make a net birdie you move back a set, if you make a net bogey you move up a set. We don’t play it during the season because it’d be too big a PITA to figure out the CR/Slope. 
 

But if the app already had that info, and we could post scores with it, we’d certainly play it once in a while during the posting season. 
 

Seems like an oversight to me. 

This!!!! This is exactly what I envision as possible.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

Right. 
 

But in the US, we all want to post our “fun” rounds. 

 

I know, but the answer was given already way back how to handle such an individual anomality and still be able to post the score.

 

I understand, people need to make sure the horse is REALLY dead 😉

[North Texas]

9 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I know, but the answer was given already way back how to handle such an individual anomality and still be able to post the score.

 

I understand, people need to make sure the horse is REALLY dead 😉

 

When I no longer want to read what's in a thread, I don't click on it anymore 😉

[nsxguy]

On 6/17/2023 at 8:30 AM, North Texas said:

 

When I no longer want to read what's in a thread, I don't click on it anymore 😉

 

Right ?

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by nsxguy
because I wanted to

[larrybud]

On 6/16/2023 at 3:10 PM, Newby said:

The desire may well be achievable because the data is there. However the practicality of any player choosing any combination of holes makes the management virtually impossible. If my maths is is right, You would need 108 cards for 3 optional tees and 432 for 4 optional tees.

18 holes with 3 different tees results in 816 different combinations.

18 holes with 4 different tees results in 3060 combinations.

[Newby]

On 6/16/2023 at 3:41 AM, larrybud said:

That's interesting. Does each hole have it's own rating and slope then? Hole is rated 3.9 / 122? I presume you add up the ratings and average the slopes to develop each 9 hole rating?

If this is how it works, then it really p!sses me off more courses don't have combo tee. It costs nothing but new scorecards, right?

Each tee/hole has its own Scratch and Bogey figure. They can be summed and associated with the general course info (see my post dated 16 June) to produce a Course and Bogey Rating. The Slope can be derived from them.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Newby

[Hawkeye77]

On 6/14/2023 at 3:32 PM, Augster said:

Are you in the USA? If so, and you play with at least one other person, you can form an ad hoc “committee” and play whatever tees you’d like. 
 

Use the chart. It won’t be much of a change. Then just post manually the new CR and Slope. 

 

 

No, you actually can’t do that and think you are posting legally in this instance. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[Augster]

7 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

No, you actually can’t do that and think you are posting legally in this instance. 

I disagree. 
 

If we are our own committee, WE decide which course/tees we are playing that day AND which boxes are going to be used. A committee IS allowed to set up the course how they see fit. 
 

If we decide to play the course 300 yards longer, then post from the actual course rating, as you suggest, because we didn’t email an “authorized association” to see if we are allowed to make a temporary CR and slope, we will certainly be bagging our caps. 
 

It is much more equitable for everyone to skip the “email the Authorized Association” step, as it’s a one day change, and just use the chart to get a  more correct CR and slope. 

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

I disagree. 
 

If we are our own committee, WE decide which course/tees we are playing that day AND which boxes are going to be used. A committee IS allowed to set up the course how they see fit. 
 

If we decide to play the course 300 yards longer, then post from the actual course rating, as you suggest, because we didn’t email an “authorized association” to see if we are allowed to make a temporary CR and slope, we will certainly be bagging our caps. 
 

It is much more equitable for everyone to skip the “email the Authorized Association” step, as it’s a one day change, and just use the chart to get a  more correct CR and slope. 

I’m sure you do, but believe you are taking the “own committee” beyond what the USGA would agree is legal.

[DaveLeeNC]

28 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I’m sure you do, but believe you are taking the “own committee” beyond what the USGA would agree is legal.

IMHO, if you were to ask the USGA "am I required to post this round where I chose to play longer tees on four holes" (as an example) they would 

 

1) Inquire as to your reason for doing so 

2) Make a judgement as to whether or not this was done with the intent or expectation of manipulating your handicap. 

 

If the judgement after #2 was 'no' then (IMHO) they would require you to post that score (with appropriate rating/slope adjustment). 

 

But just my opinion.

 

dave

[iacas]

43 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

But just my opinion.

 

They would not. They would refer you to the charts and ask you to post the round.

[DaveLeeNC]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

They would not. They would refer you to the charts and ask you to post the round.

"they would not" what? Are you referring to my suggestion that motivation might be a factor (not worth arguing over, IMHO). We seem to agree that mostly you would post the score with proper slope/rating adjustments. 

 

dave

[iacas]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

"they would not" what? Are you referring to my suggestion that motivation might be a factor (not worth arguing over, IMHO). We seem to agree that mostly you would post the score with proper slope/rating adjustments.

 

They would not inquire as to your reason and try to decide if you were cheating or manipulating. They'd point to the charts and say "post a round with those adjustments." That's why those things exist: for days when you're playing a different tee on a few holes because the tee is under construction, or whatever.

[Hawkeye77]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

They would not inquire as to your reason and try to decide if you were cheating or manipulating. They'd point to the charts and say "post a round with those adjustments." That's why those things exist: for days when you're playing a different tee on a few holes because the tee is under construction, or whatever.

I don’t think the issue is temporary tees but more broadly can golfers simply form their own committee for the purpose of designing their own “course” by playing whatever combination of regular tees they like, whenever they like when the “course” they are playing hasn’t been rated.  So they aren’t faced with a course condition requiring they can’t play regular tees, but basically doing so on a whim. A few steps seem skipped and/or circumvented as I’m reading the “justifications” offered. 

[Newby]

Rule 2.1 Acceptability of Scores

A score is acceptable for handicap purposes if the round has been played:
* 
* 

*
* On a golf course with a current Course Rating and Slope Rating, 

*

Edited July 21, 2023 by Newby

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I don’t think the issue is temporary tees but more broadly can golfers simply form their own committee for the purpose of designing their own “course” by playing whatever combination of regular tees they like, whenever they like when the “course” they are playing hasn’t been rated.  So they aren’t faced with a course condition requiring they can’t play regular tees, but basically doing so on a whim. A few steps seem skipped and/or circumvented as I’m reading the “justifications” offered. 

I don’t.

 

I think they’d rather you post the score. Imagine playing a couple of par fives at your course from 550 rather than 496 because it’s architecturally more interesting to you. You’d never post a score?

 

Or do you think the USGA would wantt him to?

 

I had my daughter play the white tees at our home course… on all holes except the par fives and 10 and 18. It got her yardage right to what she plays in college. She posted scores for years.

 

The answer I got was that my modifications were the way to go, and to post the scores. They also happened to be within 0.1 and 1 of each other whether you went off white or yellow, with yellow being the one we didn’t use as it was only six holes from the yellow.

 

Edit to add: as a course rating captain I can access the rating data, too. Calculated that way I created a set of combo tees and they came to the same as the adjusted white rating. I never published it because then it would have shown up on NCRDB and so on.

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by iacas

[Hawkeye77]

20 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don’t.

 

I think they’d rather you post the score. Imagine playing a couple of par fives at your course from 550 rather than 496 because it’s architecturally more interesting to you. You’d never post a score?

 

Or do you think the USGA would wantt him to?

 

I had my daughter play the white tees at our home course… on all holes except the par fives and 10 and 18. It got her yardage right to what she plays in college. She posted scores for years.

 

The answer I got was that my modifications were the way to go, and to post the scores. They also happened to be within 0.1 and 1 of each other whether you went off white or yellow, with yellow being the one we didn’t use as it was only six holes from the yellow.

Which may have made the answer specific to the yardages involved and very limited situation? Not just generally mixing and matching three or four different tee boxes in different combinations every time out? I can’t post playing alone. It’s not posting being preferred taking precedence over the rules that set out pre-conditions for posting and claiming you can form your own committee to get around them, which is the question. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[iacas]

14 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Which may have made the answer specific to the yardages involved and very limited situation? Not just generally mixing and matching three or four different tee boxes in different combinations every time out? I can’t post playing alone. It’s not posting being preferred taking precedence over the rules that set out pre-conditions for posting and claiming you can form your own committee to get around them, which is the question. 

 

I've been told on a few occasions that you can use the charts to post your rounds if you play your own set of mixed tees, and it's fine.

 

If you're a course and you want to do it, or you're going to do construction or something for a little while, they want you to talk to your AGA because they want to be aware of a bunch of incoming odd scores (or they could publish a temporary course rating so that the folks using the GHIN app can choose "Blue Tees (Construction)" for the time they'll be in effect.

 

[Chunkitgood]

You can set your own ratings…if you’re an Allied Golf Association.

[Newby]

7 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

You can set your own ratings…if you’re an Allied Golf Association.

I reckon you mean an Authorised Association.

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, Newby said:

I reckon you mean an Authorised Association.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/about/allied-golf-associations.html

 

[Newby]

47 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/about/allied-golf-associations.html

 

Presumably they are Authorized as specified in 1.2 of the WHS Rules.

 

Oddly, although my copy of the USGA Manual refers to Authorised they are referred to as Allied on this website https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/world-handicap-system-usga-golf-faqs.html

[Newby]

9 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

You can set your own ratings…if you’re an Allied Golf Association.

Q. Can I manually enter the Course Rating™, Slope Rating™,and par for a course I played?

A. You should always use the published rating information when available, and the vast majority of courses and tees have been rated for both genders by the Allied Golf Association. However, there may be times when you must manually enter the course information in order to post a score, including when:

• The set of tees has not been rated for your gender, or
• The round was played outside of the United States and a course search does not find the course played

In these cases, you should first reach out to the club and/or Golf Association in the area to obtain the Rating information. At that point, you can manually enter the Course Rating, Slope Rating, and par along with the score details. If no Course Rating, Slope Rating, and par can be determined, the score will not be acceptable for handicap purposes.

If you are playing a set of tees that is not rated for your gender, the club representative in consultation with the Allied Golf Association can determine if a temporary Course Rating and Slope Rating can be created to post your score by utilizing the table found in Appendix G of the Rules of Handicapping.

Manually entering the Rating information and par should be considered a last resort, since doing so will result in the score not contributing to the playing conditions calculation data pool as it would not be identified with any particular course.