Does Golf Need an Answer to Pickleball?

[blades_are_life]

10 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

Tennis as a competitive sport is almost a blood sport.  It's practically gladiator fighting.  Ruthless.  It's not conducive to social gatherings and often it's very difficult to match up players with each other that are close enough in skill to have a reasonable fun match.  If you put a godo player and mediocre player on a tennis court, badly mismatched, its not much fun for either person.

Yeah this is really true. I often find myself having to hold back purposefully when I play people so I don't stomp them (and I'm not even that good, no rating but probably low/mid-4.0./UTR 5) which is fine to some extent but sometimes feels like it is unhelpful practice for when I run into someone at my level.

[AngryGilmore]

On 8/14/2023 at 1:44 PM, jda said:

Real grass putt-putt courses with good lights and bartender every few holes seem like the missing piece for the have-fun but still compete semi-golf crowd.  Have theme nights like costumes, 60s, 70s, 80s, star wars, etc.  Leagues.

 

I have no interest in Top Golf, but I would go for this.

 

We are getting a Top Golf in my area.   Not really interested but when you have six inches of snow on the ground, Top Golf beats chipping whiffle balls in your living room.

[BHI 99]

Par 3 courses are way underrated. If I win the lottery, I’m building one that’s 3 out and 3 in X 3. Bar, restaurant, lounge, putt putt, SIM and golf shop in the center. Live cameras on a few holes with trackman. Hole in one alarms, drinks at every turn. Kids, families, first dates, gym class for school groups, Jr. golf, Seniors, Ladies, anyone that wants to swing a club. Unless you’re a whining slow play golf bro jock type, bye Felicia. 

[MountainKing]

Par 3 courses, executive courses and Top Golf exist.  I dunno what it is about the golfing mentality, but so many guys end up going out and playing a course they don't belong on holding up the entire place up.   The real answer is having to prove skill level to get on a championship course, but that will never happen because $$$$$.  You need a license or permit to do so many other things,, golf would be a great thing to add to that.

[uitar9]

I love golf. I play 50-60 rounds a year (we have full on winter)

 

It is a hard game to learn, needs money and a course to play and golf clubs.

 

One thing that would help new golfers is standardized instruction. There isn't any. Instruction is all over the map.

 

and if you are a beginner, you are faced with getting heckled while you learn, due to slo play and its not your fault.

 

You can go to a ski hill, never having stood on boards before and get a standard lesson, and start skiing on day one.

 

Not so with golf.

[Warrior42111]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

Par 3 courses, executive courses and Top Golf exist.  I dunno what it is about the golfing mentality, but so many guys end up going out and playing a course they don't belong on holding up the entire place up.   The real answer is having to prove skill level to get on a championship course, but that will never happen because $$$$$.  You need a license or permit to do so many other things,, golf would be a great thing to add to that.

I believe Europe has something like that, more based on etiquette and pace of play, someone feel free to correct me on that.

 

As for a skill level, what is acceptable. most research say about 55% of golfers break 100, do we boot 45% off? Do you do some eyeball test on tee 1? I shoot mid 80s to mid 90s usually and I can cold top one or banana ball one with the best of there here or there, am I now eliminated?

 

I'd be all for that etiquette and pace of play class thing, but basing of skill is a big no from me.

 

Just an example why I say that,  in league last night it was one foursome handicaps 16, 18 10 40. Holding up the 5some I was in (we formed when the delay started) with handicaps 16 26 30 24 and a guy who barely plays ever probably a max. yet we were waiting on every tee and approach as they were ready putts from every angle. It was 2.5hrs for my 9 and that's with not waiting on the first hole and a half. 

 

[MountainKing]

4 minutes ago, Warrior42111 said:

I believe Europe has something like that, more based on etiquette and pace of play, someone feel free to correct me on that.

 

As for a skill level, what is acceptable. most research say about 55% of golfers break 100, do we boot 45% off? Do you do some eyeball test on tee 1? I shoot mid 80s to mid 90s usually and I can cold top one or banana ball one with the best of there here or there, am I now eliminated?

 

I'd be all for that etiquette and pace of play class thing, but basing of skill is a big no from me.

 

Just an example why I say that,  in league last night it was one foursome handicaps 16, 18 10 40. Holding up the 5some I was in (we formed when the delay started) with handicaps 16 26 30 24 and a guy who barely plays ever probably a max. yet we were waiting on every tee and approach as they were ready putts from every angle. It was 2.5hrs for my 9 and that's with not waiting on the first hole and a half. 

 

 

Some European countries do have that in place from what I recall.  I know in the UK a lot of courses require a handicap card and unless things have changed a few countries require a license of some sort.

 

As far as skill, I don't think the threshold needs to be anything crazy, 30 handicap or under.  If you go to the extent of maintaining a handicap and getting a yearly license, you probably also have a pretty good understanding of keeping pace and etiquette.  Essentially eliminate the numerous guys who come out there for a Saturday with the boys to drink and get away from their family for as long as possible. 

 

 

[Maine Golfer]

 People play pick up basketball , pickle ball, all sorts of things. good for them and yawn. 

[Mooreland]

Pickleball ball is tennis with rules to make it tamer and more accessible.  Golf is already tamer golf.  It seems the golf I play using the forward tees, on a course with wide open fairways and slow greens while being "lenient" with the rules is much different to the sport played by the pros.  I just don't call it "easy" golf or pickle golf, I take my handicap, my fishy score, short yardage, ignore the course slope rating and go home with a number that let's me tell everyone I'm as good as the pros.

[Denny100]

Golf is golf.

 

Ive never known anyone who was interested in the game, whatever the ability they went on to achieve, start by playing a watered down version of the game.

 

They want to play the game Rory, Tiger, Rahm and Scheffler play.

 

Stick all the top golfs, power play golfs and all that rubbish in the bin. If you go to one of those toptracer ranges in the UK theres a good chance 85% plus of the people there are beer drinking late teens who look like theyre dressed to commit a crime rather than play golf hitting 700 drivers a night, 650 of which never get airborne.

 

Golf is already the best sport in the world just as it is.

[Short Bucket]

Pickleball is favored by the guys that wore black socks in gym class.

[Pepperturbo]

On 8/14/2023 at 11:38 AM, Soloman1 said:

Hmmm... 😉

 

 

 

When I saw this chart I thought, it's NOT representative of all golf; more like public golf, and it shows the normal ebb and flow of the sport.  Every sport has a similar ebb and flow of participants. 

 

Whereas every private I've visited over recent years since covid, has a new member waiting list, and full membership, per club charter.  Some clubs even rewrote aspects of their charter to allow more members in.  So, if you want to see the growth in golf, determine income of participants.

[Soloman1]

6 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

When I saw this chart I thought, it's NOT representative of all golf; more like public golf, and it shows the normal ebb and flow of the sport.  Every sport has a similar ebb and flow of participants. 

 

Whereas every private I've visited over recent years since covid, has a new member waiting list, and full membership, per club charter.  Some clubs even rewrote aspects of their charter to allow more members in.  So, if you want to see the growth in golf, determine income of participants.

 

The numbers come from the NGF, so there is a bias to inflate.

 

Golf has never varied from about 8-8.5% of population. You see the uptick, that’s when they changed the criteria for a “golfer” to anyone who sets foot on a course once in a year.

 

The downward trend was when 150-200 courses were closing every year.

 

Private golf courses haven’t had much growth, so supply hasn’t grown. Heck, we probably have about the same number of private golf courses as 50 years ago. 75% of courses are public access.

 

As always, local demographics, economy, culture and climate are at play.

 

[Pepperturbo]

Golf has its answer; has for as long as I can remember.  Regulation 18 golf has executive courses, Tennis has pickleball...  Having played each, the difference is golf is more abusive to beginners and intermediates.  Anyone can have fun playing pickleball.    

 

Executive courses in my area are filled to the brim most of the time, with people at least trying.  People on executive courses see the course as a short version of a regulation course.  They use ALL their clubs, still shoot in the 100s, only it doesn't take as long to play.  For ego reasons, it doesn't attract better golfers, probably out of fear... LOL  

 

Some posts reference Executive courses, which reminds me of a specific course measuring around 3700yds; it has multiple short Par 4s, and rated par 60, 58.2/99.  The wife and I play it once a month.  Since I seldom hit the range, I leave Driver or 3wd in the trunk and use it for iron practice and to test myself. 

My goal is par 60; done it more than a few times, even a few under par.  I also have rounds where I hit less than required iron, short of green and pressure wedges and putting to save par.  Makes playing a short course feel a lot longer and more stringent skill test.  The way I play them makes for valuable experience that translates to Regulation 18. 

 

I don't recall ever encountering a good golfer on one of those courses.  But not long ago, I convinced a 14 handi buddy to play there with me.  He walked off 18 feeling like sh**.  He thought he'd overpower the course, he wasn't even close.  It beat the hell out of him, showing his play judgment and dispersion was out of control.  I forgot how many balls he lost, but it was more than on a regulation course.  If you're as good as you think you are, you could score well or better Par, but if your ego is in play, you're done for.

 

Edited January 17 by Pepperturbo

[js707]

Golf ball manufacturers should figure out how to make the ball as obnoxiously loud as pickleballs so we can start getting the same level of noise complaints

[Golfinfloridaafter40]

Pickleball is fun for sure but in Florida it is the #1 cause of injuries to seniors.  Emergency rooms and Ortho's are making crazy money because of that game

[Pepperturbo]

18 minutes ago, Golfinfloridaafter40 said:

Pickleball is fun for sure but in Florida it is the #1 cause of injuries to seniors.  Emergency rooms and Ortho's are making crazy money because of that game

Same in Southern California.  A trauma/emergency rm Doc, and golf buddy confirmed that.

[Golfbit2X]

Kevin Kisner had total clarity with how he views golf when he declared: "Golf ain't no hobby" so the argument that Pickleball can be equated with Golf makes no sense in my opinion. 

[Feelingofgreatness]

This...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_golf

 

9 holes, 500m max total length.

You can even build the entire course from synthetic/artificial grasses, so little maintenance. One club, one ball.

 

I also like the idea of 9-hole, easy maintenance, shorter, muni courses. Links style, no bunkers just waste areas, 1 x par5, 2 x par4s, 6 challenging par3s. 2000-2500 yards total. Make the game faster, cheaper, more accessible.

Edited January 14 by Feelingofgreatness

[cardia10]

Golf is already working on the answer by rolling the ball back. Make the course smaller and the ball go shorter and we have our equivalent. 

[akronswitness]

They do: There are Par 3 courses for young kids and beginners, Top Golf, Pop Stroke, Mini-golf, Frisbee Golf, Foot Golf (with soccer balls). There are even a bunch places that are indoor simulator bays that have food, drinks, ects so you can play golf that way. 

 

Golf has actually branched out quite a bit to cater to all types of crowds and I would argue there are more variations of golf than any other sport out there. Which is somewhat surprising given the generally stuffy crowd that tries to gatekeep the game and 'tradition'

 

 

Edited January 16 by akronswitness

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 1/13/2024 at 11:15 AM, Pepperturbo said:

 

Executive courses in my area are filled to the brim most of the time, with people at least trying.  People on executive courses see the course as a short version of a regulation course.  They use ALL their clubs, still shoot in the 100s, only it doesn't take as long to play.  For ego reasons, it doesn't attract better golfers, probably out of fear... LOL  

 

Some posts reference Executive courses, which reminds me of a specific course measuring around 3700yds; it has multiple short Par 4s, and rated par 60, 58.2/99.  The wife and I play it once a month.  Since I seldom hit the range, I leave Driver or 3wd in the trunk and use it for iron practice and to test myself. 

My goal is par 60; done it more than a few times, even a few under par.  I also have rounds where I hit less than required iron, short of green and pressure wedges and putting to save par.  Makes playing a short course feel a lot longer and more stringent skill test.  The way I play them makes for valuable experience that translates to Regulation 18. 

 

I don't recall ever encountering a good golfer on one of those courses.  But not along ago, I convinced a 14 handi buddy to play there with me.  He walked off 18 feeling like sh**.  He thought he'd overpower the course, he wasn't even close.  It beat the hell out of him, showing his play judgment and dispersion was out of control.  I forgot how many balls he lost, but it was more than on a regulation course.  If you're as good as you think you are, you could score well or better Par, but if your ego is in play, you're done for.

 

 

As we've discussed, I know that course well. Play it often as being a MV resident, I have the ability to get tee times a day ahead of non-residents so it's easier to get a time than at a lot of other courses. According to Google, it's exactly 2.0 mile drive from my front door lol..

 

Many people think executive courses are all pitch & putt, like the 9 hole course even closer to me that's 1115 yards and par 29. That course is basically just wedge practice if I've got time to kill. But the course we're describing isn't. It actually requires you to basically play nearly every shot you'd take on a regulation course, except maybe a long approach off the deck as your second shot on a long par 4 or par 5 like you'd see on a longer course. The shortest par 3 is ~112 yards and the longest is 225. For me, every one of the par 4's except #1 forces a strategic decision off the tee based on risk/reward. Typically driver only comes out of the bag on #1 and #9. And that 225 par 3 has trouble left and right of the green, so you have to make a decision whether to go for it or to try to lay up and play it more as a par 4 or hope you can get up & down from short. Given that it's the finishing hole, for me I usually play "safe" if the round is going well enough to count for my handicap, and go for it if I'm playing terribly enough that I know it won't be in my top 8 of 20. 

 

It's a great course, SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive than nearly any other 18 hole course in the area, and can usually get around in 3:45 on a busy Sunday morning. And it's surprisingly well-maintained for the cost and the type of golfer it attracts. 

 

I'm not a good golfer. On a good day I can shoot in the 70s there (and my personal course record is 69), and on a really bad day I can shoot in the 90s. And I'm the low cap of my group lol... But unlike pitch & putt courses, I don't feel like I'm playing some dumbed down version of the game playing there. 

 

Yeah, my buddies and I like to also go out to full length courses--we typically will play about 50% of our rounds at this course and 50% at regulation tracks. 

 

But golf would be in a better place if we had more of these type courses built. 

[Yzmerf]

Who remembers the Cayman ball from the 80s. Flew about 50% but putted fairly normal. We used one in our employee club tournament and remember dead nutting a 3 wood on a 125 yd par 3 and being the only one who hit the green. 

[brianp123]

Personally would love to see more par 3 courses. With my schedule it's hard for me to play a full 18 more than once a week

[Denny100]

Golf is golf.

 

Golf wasnt meant to be played in 2 hours 20 mins by running around.

 

Golf wasnt meant to be played in a tiny little playing area.

 

Golf courses take more maintenance than pickleball courts, and equipment is more sophisticated hence it costs more money.

 

If any of these differences are an issue do someting else as a hobby rather than trying to turn golf into something it isnt.

[RoyalMustang]

On 1/13/2024 at 1:15 PM, Pepperturbo said:

Golf has its answer; has for as long as I can remember.  Regulation 18 golf has executive courses, Tennis has pickleball...  Having played each, the difference is golf is more abusive to beginners and intermediates.  Anyone can have fun playing pickleball.    

 

Executive courses in my area are filled to the brim most of the time, with people at least trying.  People on executive courses see the course as a short version of a regulation course.  They use ALL their clubs, still shoot in the 100s, only it doesn't take as long to play.  For ego reasons, it doesn't attract better golfers, probably out of fear... LOL  

 

Some posts reference Executive courses, which reminds me of a specific course measuring around 3700yds; it has multiple short Par 4s, and rated par 60, 58.2/99.  The wife and I play it once a month.  Since I seldom hit the range, I leave Driver or 3wd in the trunk and use it for iron practice and to test myself. 

My goal is par 60; done it more than a few times, even a few under par.  I also have rounds where I hit less than required iron, short of green and pressure wedges and putting to save par.  Makes playing a short course feel a lot longer and more stringent skill test.  The way I play them makes for valuable experience that translates to Regulation 18. 

 

I don't recall ever encountering a good golfer on one of those courses.  But not long ago, I convinced a 14 handi buddy to play there with me.  He walked off 18 feeling like sh**.  He thought he'd overpower the course, he wasn't even close.  It beat the hell out of him, showing his play judgment and dispersion was out of control.  I forgot how many balls he lost, but it was more than on a regulation course.  If you're as good as you think you are, you could score well or better Par, but if your ego is in play, you're done for.

 

 

When I started playing a few years ago, I hit the local par 30 exclusively. You can go around as many times as you like: I usually did 18, so par 60, same as you. Playing 18 was under 2:15 comfortably walking. 

It was great for development of my game. The par 4's are not designed to be driven unless you've got incredible control: it's mostly hybrid or FW off those tees. I faced a couple of par 3s from 185. A few GW to SW holes as well. 

 

The best part: if you lived in the district, it was $15. The worst part: some really slow, no-ettiquette players hang out there and will turn your 1+ hour 9-holes into a nearly 2-hour per 9 pace. You really need to be out there at 10am on a weekday or 5pm on a Sunday to have a decent pace of play. 

 

And yes, it is "real" golf.  

[RoyalMustang]

On 1/17/2024 at 1:57 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

As we've discussed, I know that course well. Play it often as being a MV resident, I have the ability to get tee times a day ahead of non-residents so it's easier to get a time than at a lot of other courses. According to Google, it's exactly 2.0 mile drive from my front door lol..

 

Many people think executive courses are all pitch & putt, like the 9 hole course even closer to me that's 1115 yards and par 29. That course is basically just wedge practice if I've got time to kill. But the course we're describing isn't. It actually requires you to basically play nearly every shot you'd take on a regulation course, except maybe a long approach off the deck as your second shot on a long par 4 or par 5 like you'd see on a longer course. The shortest par 3 is ~112 yards and the longest is 225. For me, every one of the par 4's except #1 forces a strategic decision off the tee based on risk/reward. Typically driver only comes out of the bag on #1 and #9. And that 225 par 3 has trouble left and right of the green, so you have to make a decision whether to go for it or to try to lay up and play it more as a par 4 or hope you can get up & down from short. Given that it's the finishing hole, for me I usually play "safe" if the round is going well enough to count for my handicap, and go for it if I'm playing terribly enough that I know it won't be in my top 8 of 20. 

 

It's a great course, SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive than nearly any other 18 hole course in the area, and can usually get around in 3:45 on a busy Sunday morning. And it's surprisingly well-maintained for the cost and the type of golfer it attracts. 

 

I'm not a good golfer. On a good day I can shoot in the 70s there (and my personal course record is 69), and on a really bad day I can shoot in the 90s. And I'm the low cap of my group lol... But unlike pitch & putt courses, I don't feel like I'm playing some dumbed down version of the game playing there. 

 

Yeah, my buddies and I like to also go out to full length courses--we typically will play about 50% of our rounds at this course and 50% at regulation tracks. 

 

But golf would be in a better place if we had more of these type courses built. 

 

As land prices creep up, it may be the only option in many areas for a public course. 

 

We have a "pitch and putt" here at our muni: it's lighted till 9:30 in the summers. I still enjoy it: it has 6 holes; distances are between 55 and 110 yards. The greens are in surprisingly good shape and a couple of holes have forced water carry. They do league nights out there. Best I've shot is +2 for 18 holes (it's $12 for play all you want). 

 

Anyone who says that isn't "real golf" is smoking something. Friends will come up specifically to work on short game and get in a lot of real swings in 90 minutes/18 holes if it isn't busy. 

 

[unclefreizo]

In a word, no. To me they are completely different mental exercises.

 

1. Golf can be played against other people.

2. But I think we can all agree, the main opponent is you.

3. Pickleball must literally and always have an opponent on the other side to be played. Unless you're just training.

 

I think this dynamic is what makes them attract different crowds.

 

You can argue which one is more social.

 

Which one has a steeper learning curve.

 

Which one is more expensive.

 

But in the end reasons 1-3 I mentioned above are the true differences, imo.

Edited April 26 by unclefreizo

[bcjim]

Pickleball is the answer.  I encourage all golfers to take it up.  It's much more fun and it's cheaper! Probably better looking ladies as well.  There is no need to be slogging a lengthy  golf round every week with your out of shape buddies. Who needs that? 

Now get out and enjoy that pickleball.

[cardia10]

Most golfers call the equivalent Putt Putt, thought one could argue the USGA is creating it with the ball rollback. Nothing like getting newcomers more excited than not being able to hit it as far and making the game tougher.