Lowering spin on iron shots

[paul_of_fame]

Currently gaming Bridgestone Tour BX S, love the ball but I just switched from T100S irons that I didn’t spin quite enough, to the new T100 irons that I’m spinning a ton. Old 7i average spin was around 6000, while the new one is around 7000. Also tried a ProV1 and found it only spun about 200 rpm less. 
 

I’d like to knock off 500-700 rpm, figured the easiest place to start is the golf ball. I prefer the softer feel but I’m really open to anything. Any recommendations? 

[Simp]

AVX, CS X LS or Left Dash. 

[rsballer10]

28 minutes ago, paul_of_fame said:

Currently gaming Bridgestone Tour BX S, love the ball but I just switched from T100S irons that I didn’t spin quite enough, to the new T100 irons that I’m spinning a ton. Old 7i average spin was around 6000, while the new one is around 7000. Also tried a ProV1 and found it only spun about 200 rpm less. 
 

I’d like to knock off 500-700 rpm, figured the easiest place to start is the golf ball. I prefer the softer feel but I’m really open to anything. Any recommendations? 

 

Is 7k rpm causing problems on the course? what is the difference in peak height and descent angle? Is there a reason you want to get to 6,300-6,500 rpm?

 

The T100s was designed to preserve stopping power by increasing peak height to offset the lower spin. So while 1k may seem like a big jump, it may not change the playability as much as the raw spin data may appear.

 

Why don't you just stay in the bridgestone family and play a slightly less spinnier model?

[paul_of_fame]

12 minutes ago, rsballer10 said:

 

Is 7k rpm causing problems on the course? what is the difference in peak height and descent angle? Is there a reason you want to get to 6,300-6,500 rpm?

 

My distances have by a full club at the top of the bag. ~87mph 6i swing speed and I play off scratch. I measured some average distances on the course yesterday and found that my distances had dropped as follows:

 

8i Old: 160, New: 155

7i Old: 172, New: 165

6i Old: 185, New: 174

5i Old: 195, New 183

4i Old (T100S): 205, New (T200): 208

3 hyb: 225

 

These are all averages from a collection of 3-5 well-struck shots. I obviously wasn't expecting to hit these as far as I hit the T100S, but the gap at the top of the bag is concerning. Visually I can see a lot more of that rising flight you get from high spin

Edited September 21, 2023 by paul_of_fame

[paul_of_fame]

Maybe I should play with some lofts instead?

[Remon]

As @Simp said above, the Titleist AVX. Very soft ball too keep you in your prefered feel prefrence and a ball that is low spinning. I think that would be your best bet ball wise. Buy a sleeve and try it out

[MattC555]

Are you sure it is spin that's the issue?  I don't see a problem with spin matching the iron.  Do you have full numbers on your 5 and 6 irons?  How do they compare to these numbers?

 

https://blog.trackmangolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/pgatourstats.png

 

 

 

[paul_of_fame]

27 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

How do they compare to these numbers?

 

I don't have 5 and 6 iron numbers on hand from any recent time, but 7 iron numbers I was getting yesterday on Foresight indoors:

• Club Speed: 86-87
• Ball Speed: 112-113
• Launch Angle: 21-22
• Spin Rate: 6900-7000

So the most glaring difference from those tour averages is ball speed and launch angle. These all felt like really well-struck shots. I've been working on not "flipping" at impact a lot recently...I wonder if maybe it's a dynamic loft/shaft lean issue? Could that explain a drop in ball speed and an increase in launch angle, while still feeling center struck?

[BlueDragonKorea]

You can flip/add loft and still hit the center, which would explain the high launch angle and spin rate. Your ball speed is also pretty low if you're centering them, it looks like that would give you a 1.29-1.30 smash factor? On Trackman, I can get 1.33-1.37 on a 7 iron, which measures differently than Foresight, but still.

[rsballer10]

3 hours ago, paul_of_fame said:

 

My distances have by a full club at the top of the bag. ~87mph 6i swing speed and I play off scratch. I measured some average distances on the course yesterday and found that my distances had dropped as follows:

 

8i Old: 160, New: 155

7i Old: 172, New: 165

6i Old: 185, New: 174

5i Old: 195, New 183

4i Old (T100S): 205, New (T200): 208

3 hyb: 225

 

These are all averages from a collection of 3-5 well-struck shots. I obviously wasn't expecting to hit these as far as I hit the T100S, but the gap at the top of the bag is concerning. Visually I can see a lot more of that rising flight you get from high spin

 

Gotcha. Sounds like you know what you are doing. Does the ball flight bother you, or is the gapping a bigger issue? I'm not sure you can fit the gapping issue with a ball change...but a sleeve of balls is cheap to test.

 

When I compare old vs new iron, I see yardage changes of -5, -7, -11, -12, +3 yards. so I see yardages getting compressed, and then the 4 iron got juiced. My bet is on stronger lofts in the 7/6 iron, and a T200 or T150 5 iron. Easy for me to say, not my new clubs/money!! 

 

 

[MattC555]

1 hour ago, paul_of_fame said:

 

I don't have 5 and 6 iron numbers on hand from any recent time, but 7 iron numbers I was getting yesterday on Foresight indoors:

• Club Speed: 86-87
• Ball Speed: 112-113
• Launch Angle: 21-22
• Spin Rate: 6900-7000

So the most glaring difference from those tour averages is ball speed and launch angle. These all felt like really well-struck shots. I've been working on not "flipping" at impact a lot recently...I wonder if maybe it's a dynamic loft/shaft lean issue? Could that explain a drop in ball speed and an increase in launch angle, while still feeling center struck?

 

It could be.  I think the combination of high launch and spin is killing your distance.  I'd get that launch down with either stronger lofts or comboing with T150/T200 irons.  You're launching significantly higher than even the average LPGA player, and I think it is robbing ball speed. 

 

 

 

It would be worth getting a full suite of data on these clubs.  Club path, AOA, decent angle, strike location, etc.  

[paul_of_fame]

Appreciate the help with this one. I just had a chance to get on the launch monitor and hit some more balls. I might have been hitting a little fat or something without realizing it on the mats the other day, but I know for sure these averages are from really good strikes and produced the best ball flights I could on the sim with my current swing. Obviously I can improve as a player but I do manage to play at a scratch level now so I don't think my swing is going to change that drastically any time soon.

 

All numbers with a 2021 ProV1

 

The launch is definitely high, but I wouldn't say it's outrageously so visually on the course, at least for what I'm used to. For me the overall distance doesn't bother me until the 5 iron - the gap is just too large to the T200 4i. I have not yet had the T200 weakened (the idea was to just get it stock and then adjust as needed), but I don't want to weaken it too much because then it opens up a gap between 4i and hybrid.

 

If I could get like 5 more yards out of the 5 iron I think my problem would be solved.

 

 

[paul_of_fame]

I will say, the fitter told me I could come back in with the clubs after getting them to get gapped, but I just wanted to have an idea of what to expect going in.

 

Seems like maybe going 1º strong on the 6i and then adding in a T150 5 iron might give me a really nice blend.

[Admhowarth]

Wont the new T100 be 2 degrees more loft (same iron) than the T100s? 

Dont think it is completely apples to apples. The t150 would probably be a better comp on lofts (acknowleding now the head shapes are different). 

[paul_of_fame]

Just now, Admhowarth said:

Wont the new T100 be 2 degrees more loft (same iron) than the T100s? 

Dont think it is completely apples to apples. The t150 would probably be a better comp on lofts (acknowleding now the head shapes are different). 

I know the lofts aren't the same...like I said, I'm ok with the overall loss of distance, but the compression of the gapping is the issue I'm trying to fix

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

30 minutes ago, paul_of_fame said:

I will say, the fitter told me I could come back in with the clubs after getting them to get gapped, but I just wanted to have an idea of what to expect going in.

 

Seems like maybe going 1º strong on the 6i and then adding in a T150 5 iron might give me a really nice blend.

That might do it.  I'm seeing your 5-iron and 6-iron club head speeds are basically the same.  I don't know if that's a sample size artifact, or typical, but it's not helping your 5-iron ball speed at all.  I'd expect 1.5-2 mph faster between clubs to help with the desired ball speed gap below

 

If we assume that we need 5 mph ball speed between each club for good gapping, and yet we've only 3.5 for the three clubs you've shown in this latest table, that seems like a potential problem too.

 

It does sound like you've a handle on working through and solving the issues though.

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[MiloMalt]

Based on the very small sample of data provided it looks like you may need to combo into t150 or t200 at the 6 iron. You aren't getting close to the 5 mph ball speed difference between the longer clubs in your bag.

[North Butte]

If it were me (not that my swing could produce those numbers in a million years) before doing anything else I'd sure trying nudging the loft on the 5i one degree stronger. If that were to give you a tiny fraction more ball speed, half a degree lower launch and a couple hundred rpm less spin you'd be right where you are wanting to be, no? And if the clubfitter is willing to do it that's a no-cost, quick option to try.

[paul_of_fame]

For fun I did a bit more testing with the old clubs. Here are side-by-side averages between the two. Obviously, the new clubs are 2º weaker than the old ones, but I just find the differences interesting. I haven't done a gapping session on a launch monitor since the winter, so the carry numbers in my head are from that and just from what I would normally hit on the course. Clearly, I have lost some speed at the top end since the winter, as my numbers with the old clubs are more compressed than I thought.

 

 

So I'm effectively not losing any distance 7-Pw, but losing almost 10 yards compared to my old clubs in the 5 and 6 irons. I wasn't swinging quite as fast today and I think I make better contact with my new shafts, so that could explain some of the similarities in the shorter irons.

 

Based on what everyone is saying, I'm going to start by just strengthening the 5 and 6 irons, but it might make sense to go T150 or 200 5i, and just strengthen the 6 by a degree. I believe something like that would give me the most effective gapping.

 

Funny enough, if I understand correctly the T100S set transitions to having that little speed pocket design at the 7i - looks like I might be a perfect advertisement for the effectiveness of that design.

[Pnwpingi210]

The t100s have some “tech” going on in them in the 7-4 irons, the t100 doesn’t.   That would explain why you were getting a bit more distance from mid and long irons in the old set.

 

im a similar high launch and spin player.  I find the t100 irons to be very high spin compared to anything else in the category.  Most the the weight is position along the sole of the club.  The 620 mb and cb both spin significantly lower for me despite even weaker lofts.

 

 

[nitram]

Have you considered hitting your new irons a groove or two lower on the face?

[paul_of_fame]

7 hours ago, nitram said:

Have you considered hitting your new irons a groove or two lower on the face?

I have not

[wfrogge1]

On 9/21/2023 at 11:17 AM, BlueDragonKorea said:

You can flip/add loft and still hit the center, which would explain the high launch angle and spin rate. Your ball speed is also pretty low if you're centering them, it looks like that would give you a 1.29-1.30 smash factor? On Trackman, I can get 1.33-1.37 on a 7 iron, which measures differently than Foresight, but still.

This was going to be my comment.... I tend to hit my irons with a 0 AoA and that causes high launch and spin. Its a handle control issue versus something that a ball can fix 

[paul_of_fame]

15 hours ago, wfrogge1 said:

This was going to be my comment.... I tend to hit my irons with a 0 AoA and that causes high launch and spin. Its a handle control issue versus something that a ball can fix 

I am ~3º down AoA, but I'm not sure about dynamic loft exactly (my GC3 doesn't have that metric)

[paul_of_fame]

Went back in for my gapping session and found that the 5 iron was 1.5º weak out of the box from Titleist. That got me the ball speed separation I would expect between 5-Pw which just left the 4/5i gap. Went 1º weak in 4i and 1º strong of standard in 5i (so 2.5º strong of what it came). Gapping is just right now! Thanks all